The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

I find it very curious that this observation was wedged between these two things:

I've been watching a lot of Regular show lately, and when I read this, the first thing that came to my mind was literally, "You know who else is often wedged between two things?... MY MOM!"

anyway:

To me, Barret's observation was showing that Aerith is someone very special to Cloud and that the reason has to do with his romantic feelings for her

I think the first part of this is right... the second part, not so much

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I should mention that Cloud can be pretty dickish to Aeirth at the beginning of the game if you want him to be. In my game, I had him drop all the wrong barrels when he's "rescuing" her from the Church and she had to fight all the grunts by herself. And then I only did about half of the Wall Market quests which meant Aerith was the one chosen by the Don, and Cloud and Tifa weren't. Yeah... Cloud wasn't really all that enamored with her at the start in my game.

Cloud rescuing Aerith really doesn't mean all that much romance-wise as he's rescuing her from Hojo... You'd have to be an absolute monster of a person to leave anyone with him. Cloud rescuing Aerith is just him being a decent human being rescuing another decent human being from a madman. He'd do it the same for Tifa as he did for Aerith and Barret would still make the same (optional) comment he makes.

 

[BlankBeat]

anyway:

I think the first part of this is right... the second part, not so much

Well, it just seems to me that there must have been an overriding reason for why Cloud wanted to rescue Aerith. Given what Cloud told Marlene, his initial attraction to Aerith's appearance/personality, and his agreement to go on a date with Aerith, it wouldn't surprise me that part of the reason Cloud decided to rescue a girl he just met had to do with the romantic feelings he was starting to develop for the girl. It's also interesting that right after Cloud decides to rescue Aerith, Tifa witnesses them, "developing their own world" and gets jealous about it.

If you look at all of these things in unison with each other, it's not hard to see that the bond that was beginning to develop between Cloud and Aerith was romantic. Barret's observation is simply more evidence that supports Cloud and Aerith's *MUTUAL* feelings. Cloud was willing to save Aerith, which shows us that he cares for her. And we know that he is also romantically attracted to her. I'm simply putting two-and-two together.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I remember BB saying Clotis always ignored Barret and whatever. And that it's somehow insulting to the character.

But isn't BB the one who's insulting Barret's character, here, now? Tell me, BB, outside of the LTD, what is Barret to you? Everyone has told you that the line about Cloud was part of his character development, and part of his developing friendship with Cloud. He's finally realizing Cloud isn't as much of a dick as he introduced himself to be. He's finally starting to like Cloud.

Why are you always Barret using as a leverage to boost your ship? Is that all you know about him? Barret has his own story, and quite frankly it has nothing to do with the LTD at all. He has a lot more lines beyond that one that SE would rather you pay attention to.

You are the one undermining Barret's relationship with Cloud, just like what you did with all the other characters, most notably Zack and Tifa.

And you keep brushing off Tifa's Don Corneo rescue. You keep saying "why did SE make this line for Barret?" "why did SE do this and do that?". Here's a question: why did SE make Cloud dress-up as a woman to save Tifa? Don't you think it's a bit much for someone he's not supposed to care about? It could have been easier to just have him bust in there without making up a mini-game where he had to do squats and find a tiara and give medicine to a puking NPC.

Maybe they're trying to tell us something about how much Cloud cares for Tifa. Maybe they're trying to show us the effort he's willing to go through to help her. This kind of caring that Barret wasn't informed to and thus couldn't make a fair observation about.

And don't even get me started on Elmyra.

I've had enough of you undermining characters to suit your needs. I don't think that's fair to the characters at all. You should really just stop if you can't even look at the source material without finding a character to use for your arguments. "Character B said something, this proves Creator wants us to know Character C is in love with Character A!" Do you not see how ridiculous that looks?

Your response to me when I asked about Zack was that the LTD is only about Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. Why do you keep inserting Barret then? Barret isn't even interested in any of the central characters romantically-- maybe Cloud. He said one line that suited your needs and that's all you say about him.

Will you please just kindly stop?

 

[eleamaya]

Deny the quotes all you want, but Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

I give up to explain this over and over again that this old quote from Dismantled and MOTP were sinking down by the rest of Compilation. First, because the canonity is still questionable. Second, though it was canon, it would have been irrelevant anymore.

Wouldn't it make sense that the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming was ROMATNIC, which is why Tifa grew jealous?

There are A, B, and C. B is jealous of seeing A and C talks closely.

Again, we even could be jealous of a person who's close with the person we love just by assumption that they share romantic feeling each other. Many story have funny scene that A is just C's sister B didn't know from the start. Or, perhaps, A and C just close friend and B just get misunderstanding of their bond. B of course could be easily jealous of A if B knows A also loves C.

2. Tifa witnessing Cloud and Aerith developing their own world together and getting jealous about it.

What we don't see in Cloti's case is.... B is jealous of A because C loves A.

 

[BlankBeat]

But isn't BB the one who's insulting Barret's character, here, now? Tell me, BB, outside of the LTD, what is Barret to you? Everyone has told you that the line about Cloud was part of his character development, and part of his developing friendship with Cloud. He's finally realizing Cloud isn't as much of a dick as he introduced himself to be. He's finally starting to like Cloud.

Why is it an either/or situation? Barret's line can be both part of his character development *AND* help highlight Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that was beginning to develop. We know that Tifa witnesses this, "special bond" shortly after Barret's observation. I don't think it's a huge leap to assume that Barret's observation was meant to highlight the, "special bond" that was beginning to form between Cloud and Aerith.

Why are you always Barret using as a leverage to boost your ship? Is that all you know about him? Barret has his own story, and quite frankly it has nothing to do with the LTD at all. He has a lot more lines beyond that one that SE would rather you pay attention to.

You are the one undermining Barret's relationship with Cloud, just like what you did with all the other characters, most notably Zack and Tifa.

This is the LTD thread. I find Barret's observation about Aerith being the first person Cloud seems to be willing to fight for besides himself completely relevant to the topic at hand. Obviously Barret means more to me as a character than his role in the LTD, but that's not really the point of this thread, now is it?

And you keep brushing off Tifa's Don Corneo rescue. You keep saying "why did SE make this line for Barret?" "why did SE do this and do that?". Here's a question: why did SE make Cloud dress-up as a woman to save Tifa? Don't you think it's a bit much for someone he's not supposed to care about? It could have been easier to just have him bust in there without making up a mini-game where he had to do squats and find a tiara and give medicine to a puking NPC.

Maybe they're trying to tell us something about how much Cloud cares for Tifa. Maybe they're trying to show us the effort he's willing to go through to help her. This kind of caring that Barret wasn't informed to and thus couldn't make a fair observation about.

I honestly don't think they would have had Barret make his observation if they thought gamers were going to brush it off and say, "Well, Cloud rescued Tifa, too!"

It just doesn't make sense that they would include this observation right after Cloud told Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him and right before Tifa gets jealous after witnessing Cloud and Aerith developing their own world together.

Cloud statement to Marlene, Barret's observation, and Tifa's jealously seem to have all been meant to show the, "special bond" that was beginning to develop between Cloud and Aerith. Why is that such a shocking belief to have?

Why do you keep inserting Barret then? Barret isn't even interested in any of the central characters romantically-- maybe Cloud. He said one line that suited your needs and that's all you say about him.

Will you please just kindly stop?

People deny that Cloud and Aerith had mutual feelings. I'm simply providing evidence that Cloud really did care for Aerith, and that part of the reason he did was because of the romantic feelings he had for her.

 

[BlankBeat]

There are A, B, and C. B is jealous of seeing A and C talks closely.

Again, we even could be jealous of a person who's close with the person we love just by assumption that they share romantic feeling each other. Many story have funny scene that A is just C's sister B didn't know from the start. Or, perhaps, A and C just close friend and B just get misunderstanding of their bond. B of course could be easily jealous of A if B knows A also loves C.

What we don't see in Cloti's case is.... B is jealous of A because C loves A.

But Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because:
1. "Wavers" quote
2. Cloud agrees to go on a date with Aerith
3. Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
4. Cloud is attracted to Aerith's physical appearance and personality


I still don't know why people insist that Tifa has horrible perception skills, especially when we know that Cloud *DOES* have a romantic interest in Aerith.

 

[eleamaya]

But Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because:
1. "Wavers" quote
2. Cloud agrees to go on a date with Aerith
3. Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
4. Cloud is attracted to Aerith's physical appearance and personality


I still don't know why people insist that Tifa has horrible perception skills, especially when we know that Cloud *DOES* have a romantic interest in Aerith.

1. Cloud wavers both girl is in Disc 1 when Aerith was still alive and he was not the real Cloud.
2. And there's nothing of Cloud shown his romantic interest during the date.
3. Read number 1.
4. Many people here had said that attracted doesn't strongly prove of already becoming romantic love conclusion.


We know? Don't twist our words.

 

[I Am Not Me]

This is the LTD thread. I find Barret's observation about Aerith being the first person Cloud seems to be willing to fight for besides himself completely relevant to the topic at hand. Obviously Barret means more to me as a character than his role in the LTD, but that's not really the point of this thread, now is it?

THEN WHAT ABOUT ZACK?

You know what, don't even answer that. Until you realize just how hypocritical, unfair, and dishonest you sound, you're going to keep trying to shove your character and shipping biases down our throats repeatedly thinking you're in the right to do so because we don't happen to agree with you, and that maybe one day we'll change our minds or something because you're always right.

In other news, Clack is canon!

 

[BlankBeat]

1. Cloud wavers both girl is in Disc 1 when Aerith was still alive and he was not the real Cloud.

All I'm saying is that the "wavers" quote proves that Cloud felt more than just a friendship for Aerith.

As for the 'real' Cloud argument, I've already discussed that:
"After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "no interests" all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud's personality." ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

So although Cloud wasn't completely himself during disc 1, parts of the 'real' Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa's memories of him. Since Tifa's memories were of the 'real' Cloud, Jenova's cells mimicked portions of the 'real Cloud' that fashioned yet another personality for him.

Even after Cloud realizes his past and fully becomes himself, he still carries grief, guilt, and sorrow over Aerith's death. Therefore, if their relationship is somehow null-in-void because Cloud wasn't completely himself during the time they spent together, why does Cloud (after becoming his complete self) harbor such emotion towards Aerith based on the time they shared while he was 'messed up'? If Cloud continues to feel strong emotions towards Aerith after fully becoming himself, it means the time they spent together while he was 'messed up' is relevant and meaningful to the 'real' Cloud.

It is silly and downright ridiculous to say that because Cloud wasn't fully himself during most of his interaction with Aerith that their relationship is somehow insignificant or 'lesser'. I believe that Cloud not being his complete self makes the case for Cloud x Aerith stronger. It proves that Aerith was the only character that was able to have the 'real' Cloud shine through and show us that Cloud not only cares for other people, but that he can, yes, even laugh.

2. And there's nothing of Cloud shown his romantic interest during the date.

I've been on several dates where I'm pretty sure I was awkward and shy. But I agreed to go on the date in the first place because I was romantically interested in the person.

3. Read number 1.

I've already shown you that part of the 'real' Cloud was present during disc 1.

I've also brought up the fact that when Cloud becomes his complete self, he continues to feel a strong bond/connection with Aerith based on the interaction they had while he was messed up. Therefore, it is irrelevant that he wasn't his complete self when he told Marlene that he hoped Aerith liked him.

Are you really dismissing everything in disc 1...?

 

[BlankBeat]

THEN WHAT ABOUT ZACK?

You know what, don't even answer that. Until you realize just how hypocritical, unfair, and dishonest you sound, you're going to keep trying to shove your character and shipping biases down our throats repeatedly thinking you're in the right to do so because we don't happen to agree with you, and that maybe one day we'll change our minds or something because you're always right.

In other news, Clack is canon!

I'm looking at Barret's observation from SE's intent. What were they trying to convey to the gamer?

I'm also looking at Barret's observation being wedged between Cloud's conversation with Marlene and Tifa letting her, "peevish feelings slip" when she witnessed Cloud and Aerith developing their own world together.

To me, it is clear that SE's goal by doing these three things (Cloud's conversation with Marlene, Barret's observation, Tifa's jealously) was to show that Cloud and Aerith were forming a, "special bond" that was obviously built around romantic attraction. Hell, just look at Cloud's reaction when he first met the girl.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that Cloud didn't become the group's designated leader until they left Midgar. There was no leader (not even Barret) at the time of Aerith's rescue -- it was just three people deciding to risk their lives for another person.

And for the record, so we're all on the same page for once, Barret was the first to bring up rescuing Aerith:

Barret
Cloud!
You gonna go help Aeris, right? She's done so much for me...
If it's the Shinra you're dealin' with, I can't just sit here! I'm comin', too!

Tifa also brought it up before Cloud said anything to her:

Tifa
You're going after Aeris, right?

Cloud
Yeah.

Tifa
I'm coming with you.

Cloud
We're going right into Shinra Headquarters. ...You gotta be prepared for the worst.

Tifa
I know.
Right now, I feel I have to push myself to the limit.
If I stayed here... I'll go crazy.

Tifa and Barret both blamed themselves for Aerith's getting captured, by the way:

Elmyra
She brought a little girl here with her.
On the way here, Tseng found them. She probably couldn't get away fast enough.
She decided to go to the Shinra in exchange for the little girl's safety.

Cloud
Must be Marlene.

Barret
Marlene!! Aeris was caught because of Marlene!?
I'm sorry. Marlene's my daughter. I'm... really... sorry...

Elmyra
You're her father!? How in the world could you ever leave a child alone like that!?

Barret
...please don't start with that. I think about it all the time. What would happen to Marlene, if I...
But you gotta understand somethin'... ...I don't got an answer. I wanna be with Marlene... But I gotta fight.
'Cause if I don't... the planet's gonna die.
So I'm gonna keep fightin'!
But, I'm worried 'bout Marlene. I really just wanna be with her... always.
See? I'm goin' in circles, now.

Elmyra
...I think I understand what you're saying... She's upstairs asleep, Why don't you go and see her.

Tifa
It's my fault... I was the one who got Aeris involved in this.

Elmyra
Don't say that. Aeris doesn't think that.

Tifa
I feel so depressed.

Bullshit they only went because the-not-actually-the-leader decided to.

 

[Master Bates]

I won't even be replying to any, but I just had to do this...

Que never said anything about Jenova making Cloud laugh. She said 'in control', thus referring to Jenova's influence.

No I'm pretty sure it said in an Ultimania somewhere that Jenova was in control of that laugh

The quote says Jenova was in-control of Cloud's consciousness while he laughed with Aerith. It never says Jenova made Cloud laugh.

I don't even care anymore. No wonder there's a lot of misunderstandings. Strawmen everywhere.

 

[BlankBeat]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that Cloud didn't become the group's designated leader until they left Midgar. There was no leader (not even Barret) at the time of Aerith's rescue -- it was just three people deciding to risk their lives for another person.

And for the record, so we're all on the same page for once, Barret was the first to bring up rescuing Aerith:



Tifa also brought it up before Cloud said anything to her:



Tifa and Barret both blamed themselves for Aerith's getting captured, by the way:



Bullshit they only went because the-not-actually-the-leader decided to.

Hawk, funny that both Barret and Tifa look to Cloud first to see if he was going to rescue Aerith. Only after making sure Cloud was going to rescue Aerith did they decide to go.

Barret says, "You gonna go help Aerith, right?" and then he proceeds to say that he's going to go, "too".

Tifa says, "You're going after Aeris, right? and then she proceeds to say that she's, "coming with you".

Both Barret and Tifa were already making Cloud the designed leader before they officially named him their leader. Plus, it's not as though they just decided to make Cloud the leader based on nothing. Cloud had to proven himself as their leader, which he did by infiltrating the Shinra headquarters. EDIT: Infiltrating Shinra headquarters was Cloud's first test as the unofficial leader, so-to-speak.

--------------------

I won't even be replying to any, but I just had to do this...





I don't even care anymore. No wonder there's a lot of misunderstandings. Strawmen everywhere.

lol yes everything Cloud did during disc 1 is completely thrown out the window because of Jenova.

I'm assuming everyone thinks this reaction was Jenova, too?

If the above scene doesn't show how much Cloud truly loved Aerith, I don't know *WHAT* does.

 

[Dashell]

Maybe she owed him mone-

okay ill stop sorry
But the Ultimania tells us the laugh was Jenova so it's a different story... but I think Hawkeye explained it best a page or so ago.

 

[BlankBeat]

But the Ultimania tells us the laugh was Jenova so it's a different story... but I think Hawkeye explained it best a page or so ago.

Does the degree of Jenova's control diminish by the time Aerith dies?

If not, Jenova's control shouldn't dismiss Cloud laughing with Aerith or his reaction to her death. In fact, Jenova's influence should never be used to discount what Cloud did on disc 1. That just doesn't make sense, especially when we see how Cloud continues to harbor such emotion for things that happened on disc 1.

 

[Dashell]

I'm not really saying it does, I actually agree with what Hawkeye said a moment ago about how that was a genuine laugh from Cloud and ... what not.

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=535199&postcount=6249

As for the discussion of the Jenova laughter quote you referenced, I've never been able to make heads or tails of what the definite point of that Ultimania comment must be, but I figure it was most likely meant to emphasize how endearing Aerith is to people in that she cut through Disc 1 Cloud's bullshit that easily.

He explained it well there... I was just pointing out you can't really compare the death scene vs the laugh as we're explicitly told Jenova was in control of his consciousness during the laugh.

 

[BlankBeat]

I'm not really saying it does, I actually agree with what Hawkeye said a moment ago about how that was a genuine laugh from Cloud and ... what not.

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=535199&postcount=6249


He explained it well there... I was just pointing out you can't really compare the death scene vs the laugh as we're explicitly told Jenova was in control of his consciousness during the laugh.

But what I'm asking is: was Jenova *NOT* in control of Cloud's consciousness when Aerith died?

If Jenova was in control during both moments, it doesn't really matter that SE specified that Jenova was in control during the laugh because the quote could have just as easily been talking about any moment when Jenova was in control of Cloud's consciousness.

 

[Dashell]

But what I'm asking is: was Jenova *NOT* in control of Cloud's consciousness when Aerith died?

I'm not really sure if she was in control all the time or if it was just on and off... remember there were times when the real Cloud was trying to get through to him... his inner self or whatever (which when I first played the game I thought was Jenova trying to trick him XD)

idk did that make any sense?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Just quick reminders

If this is not love then what is this?

I can't believe we're back into the death reaction argument, and I would like to make another example.

Spoiler: Star Trek and ST Into Darkness spoilers

Spock is raised as a Vulcan who controls his emotions, and like Cloud, he has a inner human that is hidden under his Vulcan shell. When his mother died and his entire planet destroyed this is his initial expression:

But when Kirk, a person he just knew for half a year, dies, we get this:

Now if that isn't love then what is it? Now, just because he cried at his friend's death over his own mother does this mean he values one over the other? Remember that Cloud also lost his own mother but we never see him cry. Many people find Kirk's death scene romantic, many don't. For the shippers, Spock's reaction is the ultimate proof, for others, this is simply Spock being humanized by all the tragedies that had happened to him.

Like what was said like a thousand times already, people interpret scenes like this differently. Just because you think it's romantic and painful doesn't make it a good argument.

 

[Morana]

What Danseru wrote is true. People tend to react differently when someone they love die. When my grandmother died I cried for days but when my other grandmother died my eyes were dry. It doesn't mean I loved one more than another or that I was less sad. Same is with Cloud.

 

[Akai Hana]

I just honestly think if SE viewed Cloud rescuing Tifa the same way they viewed Cloud rescuing Aerith, I don't think they would have included Barret's observation. If SE thought gamers would simply write off Barret's observation and say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too," why did they include it, then? Sort of a rhetorical question, BTW. SE made it a point to have Cloud and Barret banter back-and-forth about Cloud not caring for anyone but himself. This bantering, I believe, was intentionally included to set up Barret's observation about Aerith being the first person Cloud was willing to fight for besides himself.

Did Barret acknowledged Cloud rescue Tifa from Don? I don't think so. As far as I know, none of other members of Avalanche knew about that except Tifa, Aerith and Cloud himself, and also that is why "Cloud rescued Tifa, too," is not included because it was Barret's observation towards Cloud’s behaviour and Barret didn't even know what happen before Aerith was captured. And I don't think Cloud is going to tell Barret and the rest of Avalanche about his cross dressing experience either. And not to mention that scene is optional. (Too much AND there)

I have no problem acknowledging the "cocky front" quote. Cloud put down his cocky-front for Aerith, therefore showing us his caring side. Oh and I honestly would like to know: was Denzel the only child Cloud saw dying? To me, it's clear that at least part of the reason Cloud decided to help Denzel was because Cloud thought Aerith brought Denzel to him.

Cloud: I can't really explain it well… The problem isn't resolved. Well, I don't think it will be resolved for a long time to come. You can’t retrieve lives that have been lost.
Cloud: but maybe we can still save those lives that are endangered just now. Maybe even I can do it.
Tifa: You mean Denzel?
Cloud: Yeah
***
Tifa: And you’re wrong, Cloud
Tifa: Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.
Cloud: Ahh, I only thought that…..
Tifa: I didn’t mean it that way...
Tifa: Aerith brought Denzel to our home.
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

People deny that Cloud and Aerith had mutual feelings. I'm simply providing evidence that Cloud really did care for Aerith, and that part of the reason he did was because of the romantic feelings he had for her.

Mutual feelings based on attraction, YES. Romantic feelings? No.

If the above scene doesn't show how much Cloud truly loved Aerith, I don't know *WHAT* does

Above scene shows grieves and resentment and by the way as far as I know there is none quote of Ultimanias ever said Cloud loves Aerith romantically. The End.

P/S: I told my dad I’ll be in my room studying, and yet here I am debating with you about non-existent games character. I should now focus on my study. Intracranial metastatic disease, anyone?

 

[Sikozu]

I just don't get what SE's point was for including Barret's observation except to show that Cloud was starting to change because of Aerith.

I think people have said this before, but isn't Barret's observation one of the hints that this Cloud isn't the real one?

I just honestly think if SE viewed Cloud rescuing Tifa the same way they viewed Cloud rescuing Aerith, I don't think they would have included Barret's observation.

What do you think of the fact that even if you've favored Aerith the whole game, said all the cute responses to her and went on the date with her, SE still makes it possible for you to get the HA version of the Highwind scene, in which Cloud and Tifa spend a romantic night together(with or without sex)? Is that supposed to tell me something about the way SE views Cloud and Aerith's relationship, that they made it not only possible but easy to get the HAHW?

 

[Farron]

"For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

--The *ADVENT CHILDREN* relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *NOT* "romantic partners" or "lovers". Cloud and Tifa*NEVER* have mutual favor arrows in any of SE's relationship charts.

--Tifa states she doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene. If Tifa doesn't know, Cloti's shouldn't pretend they know, either.

--Typically, romantic couples sleep in the same room, yet we are shown that Cloud has a bed in his room.

Haven't you already been proven wrong with this ? No wonder most people here are getting annoyed and rage quitting this thread. The whole bed thing, The HAHW scene, the For The One That I Love page everything. I've only been here for a short period of time so I could be wrong here but it looks like you bring up your evidence, get proven wrong, ignore that fact and then bring up old already proven wrong evidence like nothing ever occurred before in the past.

If this is true then please stop it. ltd debating can be fun but it can also be stressful and can make others lethargic and even strike out sometimes in anger due to the stress and worn out feelings. ltd debating can take out alot of time and effort and this is just wasting time for Clotis, Zeriths, Clacks, other Cleriths and neutrals here alike.

I'm not the best debater in the world so can understand what it's like to be a bit of klutz and sometimes a bit dense but i feel like you're doing this on purpose hence again people's frustration.

So please stop this

Thanks

Are you fucking kidding me?! What even is... I don't even... WHAT?! Do you grasp, even slightly, how completely nonsensical what you just said is? So no fictional character is ever allowed to say anything non-relevant? Or relevant, but misleading or wrong? Cause seriously, ALL the bullshit must be called on this. ALL OF IT.

Otherwise you're going to have to pay for this poor persons therapy bills

So Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" is only because Cloud thought Aerith was stunning and beautiful?
So Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death is only because Cloud thought Aerith was stunning and beautiful?
So Cloud carrying around guilt for letting Aerith die is simply because he thought she was stunning and beautiful?

Again Cloud might of had something for Aerith but Final Fantasy VII doesn't end up that way.

Deny the quotes all you want, but Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

That's from Maiden which isn't canon

Basically, since their publication, the existence of Maiden Who Travels the Planet and the Kaitai Shinsho diaries have been completely ignored by Square Enix — even on a list that took the time to write other titles out of continuity. Not so much as a single Ultimania profile has referenced them. In fact, a monologue by Aerith found on pg. 159 of the Kaitai Shinsho has her speak of meeting Zack while selling flowers. While that would be able to get a pass in continuity with the original game, it contradicts what’s shown in Crisis Core, in which Aerith meets Zack under completely different circumstances. She doesn’t even begin selling flowers in Crisis Core until after she meets Zack and he gives her the suggestion to do so!

That being said, for its part, Maiden Who Travels the Planet has no actual contradictions with established canon

However canon Zerith quotes

Zack and Aerith meet by chance in a church in the Slums. They become intimate with each other.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Compilation Timeline

He was Aerith’s first love and close friends with Cloud and Sephiroth.
Zack’s Profile FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania
In “CC,” Zack is the lead character. His past is completely revealed, including his missions during his time in SOLDIER, his friendship with Sephiroth, his first love with Aerith, and his meeting with Cloud. – Zack Dengeki Profile
Zack’s ACC Dengeki Profile

Aerith, the girl whom he met at the slum’s church. The existence of the girl, who had earnestly come to love Zack with sincerity, eventually became irreplaceable to him.
Zack’s Profile FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Zack and Aerith meet by chance in a church in the Slums. They become intimate with each other.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Compilation Timeline

Just as Kunsel tells him not to “just read mail that he gets from girls” in Scene 01-04, Zack’s flirtation leads to Aerith calling him a “ladies’ man” in “FFVII”. Zack himself, while on the run from the Shinra Army after the Nibelheim Incident, also talks to Cloud about having several female friends in Midgar who might be able to hide them. Indeed, he hits on Cissnei and the receptionist in this game, and the female Turks in “BC” when they met for the first time. However, Aerith alone appears to have been truly special to him, and he tells his parents in a letter that he found a girlfriend (Aerith).
Crisis Core Complete Guide

“A guy who loves girls a lot” – That was what Aerith reflected on in FFVII, that Zack had a flirtatious streak, and was experienced in the treatment of the fairer sex. In BC, he gave compliments enough to set one’s teeth on edge to a female Turk member who was together with him on the same mission. As expected, there was a scene whereby he invited Cissnei, a young lady from the Turks, to a meal in CC. As a result of being able to surmise everything from each small deed, Aerith, who was in love with Zack, might perhaps have been jealous many times seeing all that…
Zack’s Profile 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Aerith may have initially been attracted to Cloud because he reminded her of Zack, but her interest in Cloud grows and she becomes attracted to Cloud for who he is, not for who he reminds her of.

lol no

Huh? You are again denying or forgetting the conversation Cloud had with Marlene.

I'm not. I admit that Cloud might of had something for Aerith during disc 1 that something might of been there, though I don't think that it makes or helps Clerith to become canon and disprove Cloti because as said before disc 1 Cloud wasn't all that healthy son. disc 1 Cloud wasn't all together until Tifa you know that character Tifa ? Helped glued his identity and character together so yeah no denying just not believing that it holds.

You gettit ??

So Tifa's jealously is completely unfounded? Do you think she has horrible perception skills, too?

Wouldn't it make sense that the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming was ROMATNIC, which is why Tifa grew jealous?

Only in your world BB your very beautiful Clerith world

If the above scene doesn't show how much Cloud truly loved Aerith, I don't know *WHAT* does.

Grieving doesn't in anyway whatsoever equal pure love if that was the case Edward x Tellah would be canon same with Terra x Leo and Dagger x her mum and Zidane x Vivi even

and that would be some strange shit

 

[Strangelove]

if we look at the Big Picture, there is one minor event that is being overlooked here (unless i've missed its mention, i have spotty internet connection right now)

the sector 7 pillar

barret wasn't there to hear about cloud rescuing tifa, but he did see cloud help them to try to stop shinra from dropping the plate on the sector 7 slums. that's cloud fighting for other people, the majority he doesn't know and probably hasn't even met.

if he were just in it for the money, he doesn't decide to mention it at all.

he didn't know the people there, so there wasn't any obligation there. even if he isn't doing it for the people of the slums, he still decided to go for barret without anyone telling him to.

if it was to protect avalanche, there's no need to stop the plate from dropping. just get all of avalanche out of sector 7. who cares about the rest of them, right? not that he cares about any of them either, he says as much.

cloud is the de facto leader, but it's barret who went up there first. cloud goes up there to help barret. he leaves aerith to tend to wedge and marlene. if aerith was the only one he cared about, why would he let her go off alone when the plate could fall at any moment? why not let tifa go help barret and stay to make sure aerith, the first person he cares about besides himself, is safe?


but instead of just been about barret's character development and his relationship with cloud, it's got to have something to do with cloud/aerith's relationship because everything does.


and i think there's a line in otwtas about cloud forming a world without tifa. with his bike.