The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Danseru-kun]

^

Blankbeat, respond to Tres' quotes please.

 

[BlankBeat]

^

Blankbeat, respond to Tres' quotes please.

I'll wait to see a full translation of both pages before I respond. Besides, his post doesn't address the heart of what I'm arguing (look at observation #1 and #6 of my last post). Oh and please, don't tell me what to do. kthx.

PS: Not only do you use optional evidence while at the same time dismissing optional evidence that turns out to be canon, but now you make a post demanding that I answer Hawk's post when you haven't even responded to THIS post of mine? ...will your hypocrisy never end?

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'll wait to see a full translation of both pages before I respond. Besides, his post doesn't address the heart of what I'm arguing (look at observation #1 and #6 of my last post). Oh and please, don't tell me what to do. kthx.

PS: Not only do you use optional evidence while at the same time dismissing optional evidence that turns out to be canon, but now you make a post demanding that I answer Hawk's post when you haven't even responded to THIS post of mine? ...will your hypocrisy never end?

I'm suggesting you answer Tres because it's the most important rebuttal at the moment. You have the habit of abandoning rebuttals and repeating your arguments.

Also, I have expressed my desire to exit the debate twice and my last post in which I didn't even know you answered is me exiting the discussion

So bye for now.

Ok seriously, bye for now.

You are resulting to a strawman, you ignore the fact I (and Tres) have evidence for our argument besides the optional dialogue but you insist I solely rely on this optional evidence.

And seeing how you responded in my post, I'm still not satisfied. Instead of addressing my arguments, your replied in a fashion that is questioning my character. I stated that Barret's line was optional because I have no knowledge of the Dismantled quote, you then assumed I'm being hypocritical and shady. Then instead of answering the argument where Cloud fought for Barret at the pillar, you just asked me another question on why Barret made an observation.

You told me to get out of the kitchen if I can't stand the heat, so isn't that also telling me what to do? Then you called me a hypocrite for exiting the debate. FYI I exited because I want to focus on writing other essays for Star Trek, and the whole FFVII thing distracts me.

So yeah, again. BYE, I'll be having fun and I don't want to spend much time on this.

 

[OniRaitei]

This is why I believe when Barret says Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for besides himself, it is essentially saying Aerith seems to be the first person messedup!Cloud cares for besides himself. Given Cloud's protectiveness over Aerith from the very moment he met her, Barret's observation is very accurate.

Cloud helped Jessie TWICE in the very first mission. First he helped her get her leg unstuck, then moments later he picked her up when she fell while running from the exploding reactor. Aerith is not the first. Sorry. Barret's observation is not very accurate.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'll wait to see a full translation of both pages before I respond. Besides, his post doesn't address the heart of what I'm arguing (look at observation #1 and #6 of my last post). Oh and please, don't tell me what to do. kthx.

... she said please. It was a request. Please, don't deflect from your inability to actually support your ship with rude accusations of rudeness, kthx

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Observation #5:
It is unclear why Cloud decided to stay and help AVALANCHE.

Tifa: "You remember now? ...Our promise?"

Cloud: "I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep.... the promise."

Cloud says he's not a hero nor famous, so he can't keep the promise. Then, Barret interrupts and eventually agrees to pay Cloud more for the next mission.

It is simply up to one's interpretation why Cloud decided to stay.

No.

(translation by hitoshura)
----
Promise on the water tower
The memory of Cloud and Tifa exchanging promises on the
water tower 7 years ago has a vital significance when searching
for “Cloud's true self” in the Lifestream. Also, the promise to
“come to Tifa's rescue if she is in trouble” forms the reason for
Cloud assisting AVALANCHE in this scene, but he has in fact
already fulfilled this promise 5 years ago in the Nibel mako
reactor.
----

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/promiseuo_zpsf9bb13fa.jpg

Japanese text:
----
給水塔での約束
7年前、ティファとクラウドが給水塔で約束を交わした思い出は、ライフストリーム内で「クラウド自身」を探るさいに重要な意味を持つ。また、「ティファがピンチになったら助けに行く」との約束は、この場面ではクラウドがアバランチに協力する理由になっているが、じつは5年前のニブル魔晄炉ですでに果たされているのだ。
----

Again, no.

I'll wait to see a full translation of both pages before I respond.

I'm not going to translate two or three entire pages of unrelated material just because you need an excuse to ignore facts placed in front of your face proving you wrong.

You're an extremely disrespectful person, and it's people like you who make translators say "fuck this fandom" and walk away. You're an entitled, dishonest, egotistical brat and it's impossible to have a genuine conversation with you because you come off looking like you don't care about anything but refusing to admit when you're wrong.

Because you need it so badly, here's the complete blurb from pg. 14 (the second line of which is completely fucking unrelated and the reason I didn't bother including it to begin with):

ティファを助けるため、エアリスの提案でしぶしぶ女装。そのわりに、コルネオの相手に選ばれたときの会話の選択肢などはノリノリだ。

"For the sake of helping Tifa, Cloud disguises himself as a woman at Aerith's suggestion. That in mind, the dialogue options when he's picked as Corneo's companion are really amusing."

http://i.imgur.com/WAEJ4V3.jpg

And here's the line on pg. 13 that footnote #9 linked from:

http://i.imgur.com/RRKP6L6.jpg

女装してコルネオの館へ潜入し（※9）、ティファと合流してコルネオの口を割らせ、神羅が七番街プーレトの落下を計画中と知る

"While heading towards Sector 7 with Aerith, he follows Tifa to Wall Market. He disguises himself as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion; meets up with Tifa and interrogates Corneo; and learns that Shin-Ra plans to drop the Sector 7 plate"

And here's scans of all of pp. 13, 14 and 80:

http://i.imgur.com/ehJHPK9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OFgD4G8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Gw5baD2.jpg

You want to accuse me of lying or taking something out of context, be man enough to come out and admit that's what you're doing and come back with the goddamn proof. Now get to work proving it. You've got the source material right in front of you.

I don't want to hear another goddamn word on this topic from you until you acknowledge this shit. Call that telling you what to do if you want. I don't give a fuck. I'll take every single post as a personal "fuck you" from you and an admission that you're trolling if you continue. Alright? I couldn't be more clear about this: If you continue posting without acknowledging this shit, you are actually saying, "I, BlankBeat, am a liar and a fraud. I am trolling you people. I am full of shit. I'm not even worth your time."

It's your call.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I dunno what's going on here, but it was just pointed out to me that Cloud & Tifa's cell has a toilet. And they're the only male/female pair there so....awkwaaaard

Yeah, that's all I had to add. Carry on.

 

[Dashell]

I'll wait to see a full translation of both pages before I respond.

Why? Since when is that a rule?


Okay I hearby dismiss all of your quotes because you don't post the full pages translations
Honestly though, I'm surprised no one has done a translation of the full UO profiles.

 

[Strangelove]

I had translations of them years ago, which were among the stuff I was rewriting from it.

 

[Dashell]

so you don't have them anymore?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Probably got lost when AC.net bit the farm. I seem to remember hito working on translations from the "Truth of FFVII" section as well, but they also disappeared.

 

[Strangelove]

Some things I didn't have offline back ups for, and others I lost when changing computers.

 

[Dashell]

So what all exactly did you lose? I can try talking to Yuna on facebook and see if she still has anything. It's worth a shot.

 

[BlankBeat]

Hawk,

I will happily respond to your quotes, and I'll do so without getting belligerent or personal. BTW, I genuinely wanted to know the full context of your quotes.

Oh, and I spent a great deal of time crafting this response because I do think we can find common ground. But I thoroughly expect the personal attacks to continue and for my motives to be questioned. However, before I respond to your quotes, I would like to present my overall argument in (perhaps) a more articulate fashion.

Is my main goal to show that Cloud didn't care for anyone else? No. My main goal is to show that from the very moment Cloud fell in Aerith's Church, she is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud, which is why I believe Barret's observation is just as much about his character development as it is about highlighting Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith.

As gamers, we were meant to witness Cloud's unique and unexpected care for Aerith so that when Sephiroth murdered her, it was that much more heartbreaking. Sephiroth didn't just murder any character, he murdered the character Cloud showed the most care and concern for. He killed off the character that had a romantic future with Cloud, a future that according to SE would have resulted in a marriage. It's no secret that SE tried to make Cloud and Aerith's relationship special so that when she died, it was that much more painful to us. And how did SE show that Cloud and Aerith's relationship was something special? By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud:

1. Cloud agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks.
2. Cloud tried to leave Aerith at home so she wouldn't face danger in the slums.
3. Cloud tried to prevent Aerith from going after Tifa's cart.
4. Cloud agreed to go in Corneo's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
5. Cloud didn't want Aerith to partake in Tifa's plan to trap Don Corneo.
6. Cloud's top concern after the plate fell was to rescue Aerith.

Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no other character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud during disc 1. So if you look at it from that standpoint, it makes complete and total sense why SE included Barret's observation. By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud, it made Aerith's death that much more heartbreaking. To me, it shouldn't be hard to see how Cloud and Aerith fit the classic description of a tragic love story. In fact, it's obvious from the get-go that this was SE's intention.

Because you need it so badly, here's the complete blurb from pg. 14 (the second line of which is completely fucking unrelated and the reason I didn't bother including it to begin with):

ティファを助けるため、エアリスの提案でしぶしぶ女装。そのわりに、コルネオの相手に選ばれたときの会話の選択肢などはノリノリだ。

"For the sake of helping Tifa, Cloud disguises himself as a woman at Aerith's suggestion. That in mind, the dialogue options when he's picked as Corneo's companion are really amusing."

http://i.imgur.com/WAEJ4V3.jpg

I agree with this quote. Cloud agrees to disguise himself as a woman to help Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to help her alone. I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Aerith's safety was Cloud's primary concern, rescuing Tifa was Cloud's secondary concern. To me, this makes the case for Barret's observation that much more compelling.

The only reason I'm being such a stickler about this is because I don't believe Cloud rescuing Tifa discredits Barret's observation that Aerith, in particular, seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.

In fact, I provided this as further evidence that Cloud put's Aerith's safety as his primary concern:
Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa: "I guess so, but..."

Aerith: "We have two here, right?"

Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."

During this scene, Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's. In fact, Cloud isn't concerned about Tifa's safety until Aerith points out his double standard. Cloud's double standard suggests that without Aerith's safety being at risk, Cloud may not have been prompted to rescue Tifa in the first place. This entire situation strengthens, not weakens, Barret's observation.

And here's the line on pg. 13 that footnote #9 linked from:

http://i.imgur.com/RRKP6L6.jpg

女装してコルネオの館へ潜入し（※9）、ティファと合流してコルネオの口を割らせ、神羅が七番街プーレトの落下を計画中と知る

"While heading towards Sector 7 with Aerith, he follows Tifa to Wall Market. He disguises himself as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion; meets up with Tifa and interrogates Corneo; and learns that Shin-Ra plans to drop the Sector 7 plate"

And here's scans of all of pp. 13, 14 and 80:

http://i.imgur.com/ehJHPK9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OFgD4G8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Gw5baD2.jpg

This quote simply states the facts: Cloud dresses up as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion. It doesn't tell us *WHY* Cloud did what he did. Do you know what tells us *WHY* Cloud did what he did? The script:

Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

…

Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"

I don't disagree that Cloud wanted to rescue Tifa. But Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety cannot be ignored, diminished, or overlooked. It was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that compelled him to follow through and rescue Tifa.

Then, when Tifa presents her plan to be one of Don's brides, Cloud has no reaction. It is only until Aerith wants to partake in Tifa's plan does Cloud react. In fact, Aerith calls Cloud out for this obvious double standard. And although Cloud tries to backtrack, it's obvious what just happened: Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's.

Then, once the plate falls and crushes Sector 7, Barret and Tifa begin mourning their losses, ranting and raving about Shinra, and discussing the whereabouts of Marlene. But Cloud is distracted. He's not partaking in their conversation and his mind seems to be elsewhere. Then, when Cloud abruptly leaves, Barret asks Tifa where she thinks he went. Tifa says, "Oh! Aerith!".

Cloud's mind was not focused on Shinra, the people that died in Sector 7, or Marlene. After Sector 7 was destroyed, Cloud was solely focused on rescuing Aerith. This continues the pattern that began when Cloud first agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks, and continued throughout the game ("But I'm--we're here for you"; burying Aerith in the lake by himself, deciding that he would meet Aerith in the Promised Land alone; etc.)

Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for during disc 1. There is no other character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud. SE intentionally showed us Cloud's unique concern and care for Aerith so that when she died, it was that much more heartbreaking. So despite the controversy regarding this quote, they truly are a love that could never be.

PS: I will eventually get around to the quote about Cloud staying because of his promise to Tifa. But just because I'm curious: what book is that scan coming from? And is there any other contextual information that may be relevant?

 

[Strangelove]

@Quex: It wasn't actually on AC.net, it was personal websites. Some parts were copied onto other websites and forums, but there were others that I had completed but hadn't posted online yet.

But I would rather just redo them at this point.

 

[Octo]

Clouds concern for Aerith, after Tseng reveals she is an ancient:


(The scene fades back in. Cloud is walking along the broken highway, away from the playground.)

"Cloud!" (He turns to see Barret and Tifa run up.)

Barret "Take me to Marlene!"

Tifa "You're going to help Aerith?"

Cloud "Yeah.... But before that, there's something I want to know."

Tifa "What's that?" (Cloud takes a step forward.)

Cloud "It's about the Ancients." (The screen flashes white, as if lightning were striking, then goes completely black.)

In my veins courses the blood of the Ancients. I am one of the rightful heirs to this planet! (

The screen goes white again... then we are back at the broken highway. Cloud looks down.)

Cloud "Sephiroth...?" (Cloud falls down. Tifa and Barret run to him.)


THAT is why his first thought is Aerith, of course hes going to rescue her because hes not a douche, but the mention of ancients triggered his memory of Sephiroth.

edit: and if he's so concerned out of wuv, why delay the rescue by going to talk to Elmyra?

 

[Sikozu]

I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Aerith's safety was Cloud's primary concern, rescuing Tifa was Cloud's secondary concern.

But the quote says Cloud agreed to Aerith's suggestion for Tifa's sake. It doesn't say anything about Aerith being Cloud's primary concern here. Tifa's safety's not an afterthought. You're trying to twist the script around to say something it just isn't saying. Cloud is concerned about Tifa. End of story.

 

[BlankBeat]

But the quote says Cloud agreed to Aerith's suggestion for Tifa's sake. It doesn't say anything about Aerith being Cloud's primary concern here. Tifa's safety's not an afterthought. You're trying to twist the script around to say something it just isn't saying. Cloud is concerned about Tifa. End of story.

So you're placing more value on a quote than the actual script?

The script says that what initially caused Cloud to go in was that he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

 

[Lex]

Right, except if this was the other way around you'd be using the quote to try to prove how wrong the original script is, which is the basis for a lot of the problems people have debating with you. It's a double standard.

Both the script and the quote support that he would have saved Tifa if Aerith hadn't been there anyway. You make the assumption that he wouldn't go in if Aerith hadn't, and that's not what the script says or even implies. You're applying twisted logic to the scene that only works when Cloud doesn't care about anyone except Aerith.

 

[Dashell]

So you're placing more value on a quote than the actual script?

No we're placing more weight on a quote than your interpretation.

Seriously, why does the possibility of you being wrong never come up?

But I would rather just redo them at this point.

I won't bug her then.

 

[BlankBeat]

Both the script and the quote support that he would have saved Tifa if Aerith hadn't been there anyway. You make the assumption that he wouldn't go in if Aerith hadn't, and that's not what the script says or even implies. You're applying twisted logic to the scene that only works when Cloud doesn't care about anyone except Aerith.

Why do I think Cloud may have been concerned for Aerith's safety and not Tifa's? Well, Cloud didn't seem concerned for Tifa's safety when he heard her plan to trick Don Corneo. But once Aerith wanted to get in on the plan, Cloud immediately tried to convince her not to.

We can assume Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith, but the script tells us that not only did Aerith *INVITE* Cloud to go with her, but that Cloud specifically stated he couldn't let Aerith go, "ALONE".

I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. To be honest, I'm just trying to show why Cloud's rescue of Tifa doesn't invalidate Barret's observation. In fact, Cloud's rescue of Tifa strengthens Barret's observation.

But the real point I'm trying to make is this:
As gamers, we were meant to witness Cloud's unique and unexpected care for Aerith so that when Sephiroth murdered her, it was that much more heartbreaking. Sephiroth didn't just murder any character, he murdered the character Cloud showed the most care and concern for. He killed off the character that had a romantic future with Cloud, a future that according to SE would have resulted in a marriage. It's no secret that SE tried to make Cloud and Aerith's relationship special so that when she died, it was that much more painful to us. And how did SE show that Cloud and Aerith's relationship was something special? By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud:

1. Cloud agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks.
2. Cloud tried to leave Aerith at home so she wouldn't face danger in the slums.
3. Cloud tried to prevent Aerith from going after Tifa's cart.
4. Cloud agreed to go in Corneo's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
5. Cloud didn't want Aerith to partake in Tifa's plan to trap Don Corneo.
6. Cloud's top concern after the plate fell was to rescue Aerith.

Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no other character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud during disc 1. So if you look at it from that standpoint, it makes complete and total sense why SE included Barret's observation. By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud, it made Aerith's death that much more heartbreaking. To me, it shouldn't be hard to see how Cloud and Aerith fit the classic description of a tragic love story. In fact, it's obvious from the get-go that this was SE's intention.

 

[Strangelove]

This isn't a quote that really needs interpretation. It's not high literature, it's a guidebook for a piece of popular entertainment. It's just meant to explain or summarise the story.

So maybe if your reading of the script clashes with this quote, it isn't the quote that's at fault.

 

[Sikozu]

You're the only one that thinks the quote and the script are saying different things. They follow Tifa into Wall Market to find out why she's there. It's a given Cloud was concerned about her. Or do you think he was planning to meet up with her just so he could not give a fuck and help her?

 

[Dashell]

Cloud and Aerith didn't have a special bond... the script tells us that his bond was with Tifa.

Why are all you sillies looking at that quote that says he had a bond with Aerith?