The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Strangelove]

It has it's legitimate uses

I don't have better grammar

 

[null]

also that's how this thread really goes:
> test your might
> finish him
> excellent
> kano
> liu kang
> raiden
> johnny cage
> scorpion
> sub zero
> sonya
> MORTAL KOMBAT

 

[Winter]

bitch I was talking about HOW CLOUD LOVES

IS IT SOFT OR HARD OR DOES HE HAVE A BIG DICK OR WHATEVER WOMEN LOOK FOR IN MEN

also I edited my post you whore

 

[Dashell]

I guess I have a long ass reply to make.

And Ryu FWIW, I've actually pointed out your posts from TNC where you said it doesn't have to be mutual and can be beloved, ALONG WITH HITO's to ... certain people. They always ignore it. I really hate that too

... now onto my long ass reply in a bit here...

 

[Dashell]

OK, replying to Quex' long quote of utter fail.

HOORAY

ColW says nothing of her feelings about Zack

Thank you for proving my point

it's about Sephiroth messing up and wanting to mess up with CLOUD which triggers her thoughts of Cloud. For someone she's supposed to still love like that, it's a bit sad that it takes her ennemy to trigger thoughts about him.

See, again the problem I have with this argument, is that if Cloud gets a mention as her beloved, because she obviously thought about him, why doesn't Zack get a mention when she reassembles him? I get that the story isn't about Zack or Aerith's love life, but you'd think that if Cloud gets a mention as her beloved, that surely the man she loves more than Cloud would as well. Especially since they put all this supposed Zerith stuff in ACC. You'd think if they wanted to get a Zerith message across, after adding all this "Zerith" stuff to ACC, they'd have added at least a mention in CoLW as well.

It does say that she holds Cloud dear and used to love him - which I don't question, her feelings were real, but the fact remains that it was NOT the real Cloud she knew. This is exactly WHY people cannot believe that she loved him more than Zack, because what she loved in Cloud was the Zack part - a guy she knew for 4 years, and had been in a relationship with, sent 89 letters, a guy who WANTED to marry her, VS a guy she didn't know at heart, who was manipulated by Jenova and messed up badly. A guy the creators SAY black on white that Aerith acts like this towards BECAUSE of Zack.

This again? I'll repeat:

Counter Argument #2.1: She STILL never had feelings for him, just the Zack version.

Me: Not according to many sources:

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival.

Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In
addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE’s Jessie and
young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him.

------

Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them

Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him.

and for good measure:

Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected

Plus it's a damn love triangle as Aerith's profile in the manual says, there can't be one if both girls don't love the guy

Counter Argument #2.2: It's not that anyone is saying Aerith doesn't love Cloud, just that she loved him for his Zack like behavior and doesn't love him as much as Zack.

Me: I dunno:

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him.

and

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself

I don't know how that can be any more clear. She was initially attracted to the Zack in him, but grew to love the real him. As for how she knew he wasn't really him and such:

So you won't have a breakdown..." Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, she seems to console him with such
advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud

I'm looking for you."... "So you won't have a breakdown."- what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deepmeanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability.

And FFS if Sephiroth can absorb information in the Lifestream, you'd think Aerith would be able to as well and be able to figure out who Cloud was and such.

I'm sorry, I still don't get the afterlife love.

Aerith is a cetra, she's able to not diffuse in the lifestream because of this. In CoLW she's able to feel worry and other feelings. So this doesn't cut it here. You can't apply this to Aerith because she's to damn special for it.

Why? It's just you, ColW is just a few paragraphs long, and it focuses on what happened that worried Aerith and made her aware - to prepare her role in AC/C. In the end, we see her joke with Zack and see them leave together. Heck, we even see that Cloud put Zack's sword in Aerith's church, as a testament of the two reunited lovers after death, AND her flowers blooming on his grave.

For the first part of your paragraph, see above. Second, how does Cloud putting the buster sword in Aerith's church have any bearing on Aerith's feelings? As for the flowers on his grave, I dunno what to tell you here but keep in mind that Aerith wanted flowers to grow in more places on the planet. It was her dream... so why not start on Zack's grave? I don't think the flowers really mean true love or anything in this case for the same reasons that you don't think Cloud wandering into a field of flowers at the end of Dissidia doesn't mean anything Clerithy.

YOU TROLL. I nearly dropped it here

Moi? Troll, when have I ever?

Yes, he went FIRST to find a cure, but he didn't know if he would able to [he wasn't] and didn't want to FAIL their hopes. Cloud did a lot of things to SURPRISE Tifa if you think about it during CoT, and this is just fitting the same pattern. He wanted to find a cure because it was HIS quest - he didn't want to burden Tifa and the kids with it. His own redemption was to cure Denzel - that's what he thought. And then, he got SICK AS WELL, DUH. Just because you can't understand Cloud's character on this doesn't mean that what it says is false

I guess all those quotes saying that he left due to Geostigma are wrong then

[ ν ] – εуλ 0009

· Because he contracted Geostigma, Cloud left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears.

---------------------------

· AC – Midgar
Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.

And when Cloud in ACC said he left because he felt he couldn't take care of himself... Cloud really shouldn't like like that

Plus that makes no sense at all. I hate to use a pinker argument here but really, if Cloud was hunky dorey and just wanted to help Denzel, he would have told Tifa, "Hey I'm going to be gone for a bit looking for a cure for Denzel." I mean that part really makes no sense that Cloud would just up and leave his entire family, without saying anything when he's fine.

If the Dengeki profiles have been made with the creators, then what it states is true. If it didn't, then I'll retract my statement, but seeing the dudes around who only use creators words, I guess I won't hold my breath for too long

Except that they weren't made with the creators, so no u.

Yup, he was quite a cold bastard when she knew him What an awesome man to love more than her ex-bf, really. Cloud was happy and go lucky though, only after he knew her. She knew him for TWO WEEKS, THREE AT BEST. Seriously, in less than a month, can you say you truly know someone, especially if you know he's totally messed up? Seriously? Please have at least a bit of good faith here.

See all those quotes I posted above, she was able to tell Cloud wasn't really him because she's a Cetra and all that.

And it's because of how Cloud appeared to her that she chased after him YES

I've said a couple times that she was attracted to the Zack in him and even quoted the creators on it.

Fact is that his personality didn't match Zack's, but it was not his true personality either - this was the kind of hero he though would impress... TIFA!

Which has no bearing on Aerith's feelings.

Yes. She wants to MOVE ON. She wants to know the real him. She is attracted to him - the feelings she developped for him when she saw Zack in him are still here, lingering. I'm not saying that she doesn't love Cloud, because she DOES, but she knows it's not the real Cloud either. I think she could sense the real Cloud and was attracted to him, but she didn't KNOW him, she never knew, and thus she could never truly move on. She did love him though, I don't dispute that fact.

Okay then... I don't really have a problem with this. But again, as for how she knew him... there's ways and stuff...

I'm not sure that it's not a small retcon on their part there, but if you want to go there, the best way to take this quote is exactly that: that she doesn't comprehend this truth because she doesn't want to accept it. This is how denial works.

Or she wasn't in denial and really didn't know what happened to him.

As for latest argument, see my point of how the Lifestream is not a place where you have fluffy love.

I never said this.

At best, you can be reunited with your lover in death, but even then, your feelings tend to get blurried and washed away, leaving precious memories.

Aerith. Cetra. Can do things people can't do in the lifestream.

Why do you think they removed Aerith from the credits? It's because it messed up with this idea, messed up with the fact that she got reunited with Zack in death, and messed up with the idea of Lifestream and her role in general.

Do you have a source on that BTW?

It's like Que totally forgot the added scenes of Advent Children Complete that confirm Cloud left to find a cure, and not because he was sick.

Whoa whoa whoa stop right here, hold the fucking phone. This never happened. Point out to me where he said he left to find a cure, because I remember him saying he left because he felt he couldn't care for himself... HIMSELF! I don't know where this he left to find a cure is coming from.

Quex, Cloud departing to look for a cure without telling anyone fits exactly the pattern already established. He does things without mentioning them. He doesn't make a big deal out of what he's doing.
Cloud leaves to find cure for Denzel, gets sick, panics, worries he will bring those he cares about down with him, goes into exile. Simple as that.

Okay point out to me where in ACC he says this. All the other quotes and timelines said he left due to getting Geostigma and Cloud himself confirms this in ACC. "I just felt I couldn't care for myself, let alone anyone else."

Where are you getting that he left to find a cure and didn't tell anyone? Christ, even if it is Cloud you'd think he'd at least let Tifa know he'd be for a few days to find a cure. WTF guys, seriously. Cloud's just going to up and leave his family when he's fine and is doing something to help them without saying a word?... what a dick.

Also, discounting the Dengeki profiles in this instance is irrelevant, since those are hardly the only instance where Zack is described as being 'With' or 'along with' or 'by her' regarding Aerith in the lifestream.

Can you post some? I'm honestly not aware unless it's the CC ones.

What I really want to know, is why the fuck a line from Dismantling is being quoted as proof against the actual canon of Crisis Core, which shows AERITH KNEW AND FELT ZACK WAS DEAD.

This shit's getting retarded again.

Where?

It's easiest to simply assume that she could have reassembled Zack at any time and could have contacted Cloud at any time.

But then I do have to wonder why she didn't contact Cloud sooner.

I think I got everything... did I miss anyone?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And Ryu FWIW, I've actually pointed out your posts from TNC where you said it doesn't have to be mutual and can be beloved, ALONG WITH HITO's to ... certain people. They always ignore it.

Its not that they ignore it per se, pink kool-aid has the side effect of damaging a person's ability to accurately perceive the truth. In instances where the truth can't be subverted in their minds by way of goal-post changing and twisting your words, their brain just fails to process the information. As far as they're concerned, it never happened.

This is but one of the many horrible symptoms of batshit insanity. Please donate your money to research into finding a cure for this terrible affliction. All funds will be embezzeled handled by your friendly neighborhood Tonberry.

 

[Strangelove]

It must be hunting season.

Because all I see is a bunch of teal deers.

Aerith is a cetra, she's able to not diffuse in the lifestream because of this. In CoLW she's able to feel worry and other feelings. So this doesn't cut it here. You can't apply this to Aerith because she's to damn special for it.

So how would that work out for afterlife love for everyone else? They're not Cetra so they will diffuse. Unless the next Compilation title is 'lolz guess whut gaiz, Cloud are an Ancient!'

I guess all those quotes saying that he left due to Geostigma are wrong then

- Goes out looking for a cure, but will come back from time to time
- Gets sick and pisses off to emo on hilltops and in churches

Geostigma can still be the reason he left.

Except that they weren't made with the creators, so no u.

Technically, neither are the Ultimanias you've been quoting. With the exception of the interviews (and even they can be edited), they would have been written by the people at Studio Bent Stuff and not the creators themselves.

Whoa whoa whoa stop right here, hold the fucking phone. This never happened. Point out to me where he said he left to find a cure, because I remember him saying he left because he felt he couldn't care for himself... HIMSELF! I don't know where this he left to find a cure is coming from.

It's from Marlene's dialogue, isn't it? Cloud says he can't even help himself, Marlene says something about him having tried so hard to find a cure for Denzel, Cloud is surprised she knew and she's all "bitch never cleans his desk." (Which would imply that he still came home while searching for a cure and didn't leave at that point.)


i seriously only ever post so i can make snappy one-liners.

 

[Dashell]

So how would that work out for afterlife love for everyone else? They're not Cetra so they will diffuse. Unless the next Compilation title is 'lolz guess whut gaiz, Cloud are an Ancient!'

It basically doesn't.

- Goes out looking for a cure, but will come back from time to time
- Gets sick and pisses off to emo on hilltops and in churches

Geostigma can still be the reason he left.

The way the Degeki profiles make it seem, the reason he left, without returning, was to find a cure and then he got sick. If he was out looking and then came back from time to time... then that's not really leaving... that's leaving and returning. The reason he left left was because he got Geostigma.

Technically, neither are the Ultimanias you've been quoting. With the exception of the interviews (and even they can be edited), they would have been written by the people at Studio Bent Stuff and not the creators themselves.

Yes but the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and if other magazine statements are out, these ones shouldn't be allowed either.

and yes Ryu, I know why you think they ARE canon I just don't agree.

It's from Marlene's dialogue, isn't it? Cloud says he can't even help himself, Marlene says something about him having tried so hard to find a cure for Denzel, Cloud is surprised she knew and she's all "bitch never cleans his desk." (Which would imply that he still came home while searching for a cure and didn't leave at that point.)

OMFG WIN XD

and yes I'm aware of the dialogue but, and correct me if I misread, but I thought people were arguing the reason Cloud left was to find a cure. Meaning he left, was gone for a few days without telling anyone, didn't come home... and THEN he got sick, which is not what many of the sources say.

 

[minimosey]

Point of order, Aerith/ Everyone alive is a maternal relationship. That's her new role. She's a maternal figure.
Also, Cloud calling her mom absolutely kills any chance for a romantic mood.

Didn't kill the mood for Zack.

...I have to wonder about Mrs. Fair now.

Spoiler

(Even though I completely agree that Cloud is not looking at Aerith in a romantic light. She is OMFG the mama/savior!!! But I couldn't resist.)

 

[Celes Chere]

also I edited my post you whore

 

[Strangelove]

The way the Degeki profiles make it seem, the reason he left, without returning, was to find a cure and then he got sick. If he was out looking and then came back from time to time... then that's not really leaving... that's leaving and returning. The reason he left left was because he got Geostigma.

Maybe 'leaves' could have been phrased differently, but I don't have the original scans here to check it against them.

I should consider that people will deconstruct what I put, since it's happened so many times before, but I never learn

 

[Dashell]

It's cause you force your translation onto others doncha know?

no but if all people meant by left was that he left and came back, that's ... like different then XD

 

[Strangelove]

I have a victim complex and am used to getting the blame for everything.

Even the stuff that's Mako's fault

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I have a victim complex and am used to getting the blame for everything.

Even the stuff though that's everything is Mako's fault

Sorry Mako, I'm in a mood tonight it seems.

 

[Max Caulfield]

*hasn't been in this thread for a few days*

WAIT. We're still on the topid of "who does Aerith love more"?

 

[Joppylop]

Okay, I'm gonna come out of lurk mode to address this whole why Cloud left thing.
Saying he 'left' to find a cure isn't entirely correct. In CoT Tifa talks about Cloud being distant and gone from home a lot, but when Denzel shows up Cloud starts spending more time home with the kids. This is why she's distraught when suddenly he starts spending time away again after Denzel's been living with them for a while, because he seemed to be a lot happier when Denzel came into their lives. The reason he started spending time away again is addressed in ACC in the convo with Marlene. He was making his normal deliveries but was also spending time out looking for a cure. He didn't tell the family about this because he wouldn't want to get their hopes up, would he? (but like a retard, he left some of his research on his desk, so they found out about it anyway) So no, he didn't leave to look for a cure, but he was away a lot because he was looking for one and didn't inform the family. One day while he was out like this for a while he got sick and just didn't come back home because of it. Tifa even frets about him not coming home and starts thinking that maybe he was in a accident or got attacked. Her worrying like that suggests that he was still at least coming home each night or was never away for more than a couple days. Then she hears that he's still making deliveries so she realizes that he left intentionally. That's it. It's pretty simple.

The entire reason why this ever really gets brought up in debate is because so many Cleriths argue that if Cloud got sick while still living with Tifa and having a relationship with her, then she should have known about it. If they were romantically involved then, surely, she would see his arm at some point. The reason Clotis argue against this is because the quotes and the movie say he was away (not living away, but just not home at the time because he was looking for a cure) when he contracted Geostigma. Then he just didn't come home. So the the Clerith argument that Tifa should have known about it if they were in a relationship is completely moot because she never saw him after he got sick.

I don't remember now how this even got brought up in this thread, because the current convo is about whether Aerith loved Cloud or Zack more and the reason Cloud left home really has nothing to do with it. The only reason it gets brought up in debate is for the one I gave above.

Anywho, I'm gonna go back and read back over some of this thread so that maybe I can get in on this current 'who did Aerith really love/love more' thing because, honestly, it's a lot more interesting than the 'who does Cloud love' dead horse that I've gotten so bored of.

 

[Dashell]

I don't remember now how this even got brought up in this thread, because the current convo is about whether Aerith loved Cloud or Zack more and the reason Cloud left home really has nothing to do with it. The only reason it gets brought up in debate is for the one I gave above.

Because I'm stupid and thought people were saying Cloud left as in, "left and never returned" because he was out looking for a cure. But what you said sums up what I think nicely. Good job

*hasn't been in this thread for a few days*

WAIT. We're still on the topid of "who does Aerith love more"?

What else is there to discuss?

 

[Joppylop]

So this is just my opinion here, but I don't really like this argument that Aerith must love one of the guys more than the other. I don't believe you can quantify love so easily, and I certainly don't think that any part of the Compilation is trying to do so. Like I said, this my opinion, but why is it difficult for people to just agree that she loves them both? The difference is that, regardless of the fact she first was attracted to Cloud because of Zack or that she didn't know him for very long, Cloud was her current love interest when she died. I don't think this needs any more proof than the use of koibito in ColW. Arguing things like whether she knew about Zack's death and was just not wanting to accept it or she didn't know at all until she died, or the reason for her not 'reassembling' Zack right away when she passed, or the ACC symbolism - none of this matters a whole lot in the argument of who she's currently in love with when she states herself that she loves Cloud. The date scene is proof enough that she was ready to try to move on and that she wanted to do so with Cloud. Then, unfortunately, she died. When she is in the lifestream and thinking about Cloud, of course one of the main feelings she has for him are those of love, because that's what she felt for him at the moment of her death. Does any of this detract from the feelings she had for Zack? Of course not. Why would it?
I know that some people want to argue that since Zack is with her in the lifestream they must be somehow rekindling their relationship or maybe she fell back in love with him, but I just don't think that's how the afterlife works. They're dead. That's the end of that relationship, and now that Sephiroth is gone and the world is safe again, they're gonna dissolve into the stream and that'll be that. Koibitio is used in passing to tell the reader who Cloud is in relation to 'the woman'. And that's exactly who he is - the man she had romantic feelings for when she died. What reason would there be to bring Zack up? Whether she still loves him or not, it wouldn't jive with the story for it to be only (both ColW and ColB) focusing on Cloud and then to bring up Zack.
So yeah, she loved Zack dearly. She pined after him enough when he disappeared that she wrote all of those letters. Then five years after Zack fell off the planet this guy shows up that reminds her of him so she takes an interest in him. She's still denying the fact that Zack is dead, but she makes it clear during the date that she wants to separate the two of them and move on. She knew Zack wasn't coming back, so she wanted get to know the 'real' Cloud and hopefully start a relationship with him because she was falling in love with him. Then she got skewered. I don't see how any of this proves that she loved one more than the other, just that she loved one currently and was trying to put the other one behind her.
The symbolism in ACC with the sword in the church isn't there to say that Zack and Aerith are rekindling things in death, it's to show Cloud's respect for a couple that loved each other and were two of the most important people in his life.
I hope some of that made sense. I probably repeated some stuff here and there and didn't get my point across well. I don't even want to read over all of it to check, so I won't blame any of you if you don't want to read it either.

 

[Dashell]

The symbolism in ACC with the sword in the church isn't there to say that Zack and Aerith are rekindling things in death, it's to show Cloud's respect for a couple that loved each other and were two of the most important people in his life.

Whoa deep... I like it, good post.

But yeah I do agree, Aerith loved them both and we probably shouldn't be trying to quantify it. One of the main reasons I keep bringing it up is to bring actual discussion to the table Love is tricky and all that.

 

[Vendel]

The symbolism in ACC with the sword in the church isn't there to say that Zack and Aerith are rekindling things in death, it's to show Cloud's respect for a couple that loved each other and were two of the most important people in his life.

What about the flowers where Zack died?

Somehow this is all clerith information. I just know it.

 

[Dashell]

I mentioned that already:

As for the flowers on his grave, I dunno what to tell you here but keep in mind that Aerith wanted flowers to grow in more places on the planet. It was her dream... so why not start on Zack's grave? I don't think the flowers really mean true love or anything in this case for the same reasons that you don't think Cloud wandering into a field of flowers at the end of Dissidia doesn't mean anything Clerithy.

 

[Vendel]

I mentioned that already:

Riiiiight.

Although I would like you to explain to me the symbolism of flowers on Zacks grave. And His sword in Aerith's church. I'm sure it's all related to her love for Cloud somehow right?

 

[Dashell]

Cloud placing the Sword in Aerith's church has no bearing on Aerith's feelings.

As for symbolism, I dunno... I don't know anything about what flowers mean in Japan or what they may have meant but if you apply them to Zack's grave, keep in mind that Cloud walks through a flower field at the end of Dissidia as well.

 

[Vendel]

Cloud placing the Sword in Aerith's church has no bearing on Aerith's feelings.

What about Cloud's. He did see them leave together....right?

As for symbolism, I dunno... I don't know anything about what flowers mean in Japan or what they may have meant but if you apply them to Zack's grave, keep in mind that Cloud walks through a flower field at the end of Dissidia as well.

Do I look like a person who gives a flying fuck about the ending of Dissidia? But I guess all those other guys in the flowers were fucking Aerith as well.

 

[Joppylop]

Sure, I'll give you the flowers as a Zerith symbol. The first flowers in the wastelands growing where her first love died seems pretty romantic. I'm sure there might be other ways to interpret it, but I like it as a Zerith symbol because I ship them. At the same time, I don't think that symbol should be taken as some sort of hint that they're sexing it up in the lifestream. They. Are. Dead. There's no continuing of the past romantic relationship. He's by her side, yes; the creators say so, but I don't think it's possible for them to just start up a relationship when they're dead and Zack is gonna dissolve into the goop (and probably Aerith too now that her work is done). My point about the sword in the church was that it was put there deliberately by Cloud to show them his respect, and shouldn't be taken out of context to prove that Aerith and Zack are in a relationship in the lifestream as someone was suggesting earlier in the tread. I just don't see the lifestream working in a way to make such a thing possible. I also don't see how so many of you ignore the fact that Aerith herself says that she loved Cloud and obviously, through her dialogue in the game, wanted to move on from a past relationship. She loved Cloud. It's a fact. She says so. Did he love her back? Sure as hell doesn't seem like it to me. Were they a couple? Absolutely not; he didn't even know how she felt about him. I think he's still oblivious as of ACC to how she felt.

Edit: I find it really annoying the I keep getting logged out every time I try to make a post.