The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Fairheartstrife]

That was in the past. He was in love with her. Now "she became a respected figure in Johnny's heart. "

So...he moved from Costa Del Sol where he'd decided to start a new life back to ruined Midgar....opened a bar in honor of his crush and still thinks of her... again, boy gets around.

I know that!
She obviously told him things, you would only tell your bestest friend, no?
So: When did they became such great friends?

Uhm, are you serious with that? Please be joking. Because we just watched them OVERHEAR her conversation with Cloud. ABOUT PROMISES WHEN THEY WERE KIDS. So, no, Tifa told Johnny dick. He's just a snoop.

 

[Son Goku]

So...he moved from Costa Del Sol where he'd decided to start a new life back to ruined Midgar....opened a bar in honor of his crush and still thinks of her... again, boy gets around.

Yeah, he gets around...
Doesn`t change what this quote says though:

At the time, Johnny was moved by how Tifa could decide what she should be doing while the rest of the crowd was still indecisive. And so, with those thoughts in mind, she became a respected figure in Johnny's heart.

I read the "respected figure" here. He maybe still have a little crush but it would be very foolish to still hope...

So...he moved from Costa Del Sol where he'd decided to start a new life back to ruined Midgar....opened a bar in honor of his crush and still thinks of her... again, boy gets around.


Uhm, are you serious with that? Please be joking. Because we just watched them OVERHEAR her conversation with Cloud. ABOUT PROMISES WHEN THEY WERE KIDS. So, no, Tifa told Johnny dick. He's just a snoop.

sure he is a snoop.

I was refering to these:
Johnny:
"But Tifa doesn`t thing so."
"Not those memories beneath the stars when we were kids or all the stuff WE talked aboout"
Sounds like there was a conversation about this. not sure though. :/

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Before I start arguing over a DELETED scene that has questionable translation, what the heck is th point of her knowing Johnny and how is that relevant to the LTD? What am I missing?

 

[Son Goku]

Before I start arguing over a DELETED scene that has questionable translation, what the heck is th point of her knowing Johnny and how is that relevant to the LTD? What am I missing?

It isn`t relevant to the LTD. I was just surprised they were not childhood friends. I had the impression they were close/good friends and wanted to know when they became acquainted.
example: In Costa Del Sol they seemed they had a lot to catch up talked about "old times", so idk.

I think we just stop here.This gets nowhere and I have things I have to do right now, so excuse me.



Interesting:

Final Fantasy VII
As an Ancient, Aerith risks her life to stop Sephiroth. Afterwards, she continues to watch over Cloud and the others from the Lifestream.
While fulfilling her duty as an Ancient, she also came to worry about Cloud. And those feelings are even now…

 

[Joppylop]

This thread moves fast. I know you guys are on another topic now, but I want to reply to something OWD said. And maybe explain my stance on this a little better so people aren't misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

They're markers for the audience, as much as Cloud.
WE know Zack/Aeris are a couple, die and leave together at the end of AC, Cloud sees them, then places Zack's sword in Aeris' church garden, and then...that says nothing about Zack/Aeris?
No one says it means they're having babies in the Lifestream. It just further reinforces both the relationship Zack/Aeris shared in FFVII, as well as their relationship with Cloud (close friends).

The fact that the Buster Sword and flowers are put together is significant, it isn't just a more convenient way for Cloud to honor two unrelated dead friends without having to drive to two different locations, ok?
YES, it does have bearing on what Aeris and Zack were to each other whether you like it or not.

Maybe you should go back and read my posts?

The symbolism in ACC with the sword in the church isn't there to say that Zack and Aerith are rekindling things in death, it's to show Cloud's respect for a couple that loved each other and were two of the most important people in his life.

I didn't say that it wasn't a reference to Zack and Aerith as a couple. Cloud knew they were a couple before that shit happened in Nibelheim. He knew they loved each other. I'm pretty much saying what you said up there: It's a reference to the relationship they once had while alive as well as the importance that they both have for Cloud. No one said anything about the sword being placed there to make honoring them more convenient. What I'm trying to explain is that it shouldn't be taken as some sort of sign that Zack and Aerith have somehow restarted their romantic relationship in the lifestream as some people try to argue. That is not how death in FFVII works. They aren't living out some kind of afterlife. They're dead and in the lifestream, and Zack is not a Cetra and so will dissolve into the goop. Some people try to argue that because Zack was there with her at the end of the movie then they must be romantically involved again or that it somehow negates the feelings Aerith had for Cloud. Their relationship was a touching one when they were alive, but then it ended, Aerith fell in love with Cloud, then died. Cloud placing the sword in the church is definitely to show what Zack and Aerith were to each other when they were alive, but it also has no bearing whatsoever on which one of the guys Aerith was in love with before she died. And I keep saying 'before she died' because that time, not any point after her death, is the only time that matters when talking about who Aerith loves. She states herself in ColW that she loved Cloud (past tense, as in, when she was alive), and this is told to us to explain who Cloud was to 'the woman' before she got stabbed to death. Cloud placing the sword in the church in reverence of the couple shouldn't have more bearing on who Aerith loved than Aerith herself stating that she was in love with Cloud.

Now I'll stop making these long ass posts and let you guys get back to talking about Johnny.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Uhm, are you serious with that? Please be joking. Because we just watched them OVERHEAR her conversation with Cloud. ABOUT PROMISES WHEN THEY WERE KIDS. So, no, Tifa told Johnny dick. He's just a snoop.

Like I said, he's Kunsel. After what happened with Zack, Kunsel dropped out of Shinra, took off his helmet, started going by his first name, and began drinking to forget. His restless moving from place to place is symptomatic of his guilt over blackmailing Zack with those photos from the SOLDIER showers; the Nibelheim job was overtime but Zack had to take it in order to come up with the money.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud placing the Sword in Aerith's church has no bearing on Aerith's feelings.

As for symbolism, I dunno... I don't know anything about what flowers mean in Japan or what they may have meant but if you apply them to Zack's grave, keep in mind that Cloud walks through a flower field at the end of Dissidia as well.

There's absolutely no more romantic fucking symbolism in Dissidia's ending for Cloud than there is for fuckdamn Cecil.
STOP FUCKING BRINGING IT UP.
Secondly, Zack's grave and the flowers is more than just flowers and his grave. it's paired symbolism with the sword placed in the church. They have shared and reciprocated imagery.

They're markers for the audience, as much as Cloud.
WE know Zack/Aeris are a couple, die and leave together at the end of AC, Cloud sees them, then places Zack's sword in Aeris' church garden, and then...that says nothing about Zack/Aeris?
No one says it means they're having babies in the Lifestream. It just further reinforces both the relationship Zack/Aeris shared in FFVII, as well as their relationship with Cloud (close friends).

The fact that the Buster Sword and flowers are put together is significant, it isn't just a more convenient way for Cloud to honor two unrelated dead friends without having to drive to two different locations, ok?
YES, it does have bearing on what Aeris and Zack were to each other whether you like it or not.

Especially since Cloud STILL GOES TO VISIT ZACK'S GRAVE.

Like I said, he's Kunsel. After what happened with Zack, Kunsel dropped out of Shinra, took off his helmet, started going by his first name, and began drinking to forget. His restless moving from place to place is symptomatic of his guilt over blackmailing Zack with those photos from the SOLDIER showers; the Nibelheim job was overtime but Zack had to take it in order to come up with the money.

Like you could Blackmail Zack with what happened in the showers.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Like you could Blackmail Zack with what happened in the showers.

Good point.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

@ Joppy:

Are you saying the story places Zack/Aerith together (symbolically as represented by sword and flower) in ACC, agreeing that it's a sign to the audience that references the relationship between the two characters...but this is somehow meaningless and has no bearing on the present? Or Aeris' feelings before she died? Please explain to me why this is necessary then, within the story, to reference a past relationship that not only has no bearing on Aeris' feelings in the present or even at the time of her death, but has one member shifting affections towards Cloud? What is the point of constantly hammering the sword/flower symbolism thing (twice, mind you in AC, a period well after the events of CC and FFVII)?

Cloud is not real, he serves a narrative function. So Cloud doesn't do things for just Cloud. The final shot is to the audience. It goes without saying that the final shot of the Buster Sword/Flowers aren't just a reference to Zack and Aeris' relationship in the past, before they both split and went their separate ways, after which Aeris fell madly in love with Cloud.

What I'm trying to explain is that it shouldn't be taken as some sort of sign that Zack and Aerith have somehow restarted their romantic relationship in the lifestream as some people try to argue.

No, it's a nod to their relationship within the FFVII universe and where the characters stand in regards to each other. Zack and Aeris belong together. Which is why this "she loves Cloud best" crap is just BS and does not fit within that, especially in a movie that the staff claim to have placed everyoen WHERE THEY BELONG and where Zack is by her side. Mmmkay?

Just doesn't seem to make much sense to me if things are as you say


EDIT: Wow, my typing skillz are shot. LOL, I had to edit like 5 million times. I give up, dun judge mah spellingz now. I'm not editing again

 

[Winter]

Has anyone ever considered that buster swords and flowers are both significant to Cloud as a character? While yes, he serves as a narrative function, he is the center of AC/ACC's story and the ending is symbolic of his own closure.

The flowers and buster sword being next to each other is NOT intentionally romantic.

 

[crack]

I like how everything in the movie portrayed as symbolic is romantic.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The flowers and buster sword being next to each other is NOT intentionally romantic.

I like how everything in the movie portrayed as symbolic is romantic.

I didn't say it was, so quit bulding them strawmen.


...so it UNINTENTIONAL? SE did not realize what that implies?
Just like it's a coincidence that flowers were at Zack's resting place before too?

I don't see anything unintentional in a scene that WAS ADDED TO COMPLETE AC.

 

[null]

Aerith loved Cloud and Zack.

Now everyone STFU and Test Your Might.

 

[crack]

Aerith loved Cloud and Zack.

Now everyone STFU and Test Your Might.

It keeps telling me I'm pathetic.

 

[null]

I made it to stone but now my spacebar is fucked. LOL

 

[Strangelove]

When I read this both back then, it made sense that the letter from the Nibelheim flashback was from Johnny.
Are you saying she has no proof of this (and the wikia is also wrong) or she had just false information on that?

The Ultimania Omega stated the letter was written by the son of the general store owner, not Johnny.

Now I`m confused, I always thought they were childhood friends.
When did they become acquainted then? They seemed like close friends.

He was a regular at Seventh Heaven. Tifa had been in Midgar for years, which gives them enough kind to get to know each other.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

What the heck is th point of her knowing Johnny and how is that relevant to the LTD? What am I missing?

Really, when did it become necessary for something to have any bearing whatsoever on the LTD to discuss it in the LTD thread? Seriously, how many pages of random lesbian pictures and such did we go through in the last one?

Edit: Oh, also commenting on the actual point of discussion: Look at Tifa's history. She's been cinsistently friendly, caring, and this plus her beauty has always made her popular. As was mentioned above, Tifa's been in Midgar for years (Zangan took her there after the Nibelheim incident as I recall) so really Johnny could have run into her any time after that.

 

[Son Goku]

I made it to stone but now my spacebar is fucked. LOL

I`m the Supreme Champion, buddy!

But I need to stop now, my fingers are numb.

The Ultimania Omega stated the letter was written by the son of the general store owner, not Johnny.

Thanks. She said the son was probably Johnny and it somehow made sense back then.

He was a regular at Seventh Heaven. Tifa had been in Midgar for years, which gives them enough kind to get to know each other.

This was the next thing that came in mind after learning they aren`t childhood friends.

 

[Joppylop]

@OWD

I dont' think I'm getting across what I'm trying to say very well. My entire point about the sword in the church is that it's being used in debate in a way that doesn't make sense to me. People were arguing about who Aerith loved more. I don't think she loved either more, just that she loved them both, but was pursing a relationship with Cloud and trying to put her relationship with Zack in the past when she died. Some try to use this whole ACC symbolism as proof that, no she didn't really love Cloud at all but was only in love with the Zack in him and they are now eternally bonded in death..or whatever. This symbolism crap gets taken too far in debates like this when it can be interpreted in different ways by different people (as you have already seen by another person's reply to you in this thread). As I said before, I interpret it as a clear symbol of Cloud's respect of the two and of Cloud symbolically uniting them in death. The thing is, even though they are said to be together (no I do not think this means together romantically and having some kind of creepy postmortem romance), and in the lifestream where they belong, they aren't there frolicking in Aerith's magical flower field white space hand in hand. They're just both dead. Their spirits reunited briefly in death before Zack becomes one with the ooze, yes. Rekindling an old romance from when they were alive, no. I just don't think that those kinds of feelings really get carried over in death and are able to be expanded on postmortem. It's more like a kind of consciousness that encompasses all of your being, memories, and feelings. When Aerith starts thinking about Cloud when she's in the lifestream, it's because Sephiroth was thinking about him and focusing on his hate for him to keep his spirit in tact. Aerith thinks about who Cloud was to her - he was the man she loved before her death. This is the final word on what her feelings were when she died. She says she loved him and I don't know why we can't take her word for it and try to somehow prove her feelings wrong by using symbolism that can be interpreted in different ways. The sword in the church doesn't trump Aerith flat out saying who she was in love with when she died. Any kind of romance postmortem, for either Aerith and Cloud and Aerith and Zack, is impossible and doesn't really have a place in the debate of who Aerith loved because she's freaking dead. The symbolism of the two of them being reunited in death is nice and all, but it has no bearing on who Aerith loved when she says herself that loved Cloud too and wanted to move on from Zack. She loved them both, but wanted to be with Cloud when she was alive. And using symbolism to try to prove that she forever loved Zack and only loved Cloud for that part of him is total crap. She loved Cloud, died, and was reunited with her ex lover in death. This is what happened, and this is what I've been saying this whole time. My point about the symbolism is that it's taken to far to somehow try to prove that Aerith didn't love Cloud genuinely. She fucking loved them both and it annoys the hell out of me that people try to argue that her love for Cloud, not matter how the attraction began or how long their time together was, wasn't real by using a symbol of her being reunited with her previous love in death.
I hope you get what I'm saying now because that's about as clear as I can be about it.

I should add this:

No, it's a nod to their relationship within the FFVII universe and where the characters stand in regards to each other. Zack and Aeris belong together. Which is why this "she loves Cloud best" crap is just BS and does not fit within that, especially in a movie that the staff claim to have placed everyoen WHERE THEY BELONG and where Zack is by her side. Mmmkay?

I never said that Aerith and Zack didn't belong together. I believe it to be quite the contrary actually. I honestly believe that they were soul mates. Unfortunately, Zack died and Aerith tried to move on. I also never said "she loves Cloud best", just that she loved him too and was pursuing a relationship with him. And trying to disprove her love for Cloud by saying she's romantically with Zack after death is what I consider to be BS.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In my opinion, Joppylop makes the best posts regarding Aerith's feelings that the LTD has seen in its 13-year run.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

It's sad that it took 13 years to come to said statement.

There is nothing worth mocking going on in here atm. I am sad now.

 

[crack]

I want to mock your red text.

 

[Joppylop]

Thanks. I was starting to think that I wasn't making any sense and no one cared what I was saying. Sorry to ruin the fun with seriousness though.

I want to mock your red text.

It is rather painful to the eyes.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I don't see anyone arguing that she didn't love Cloud and Zack. "More" is trying to quantify something, that by its very nature can't be done... The point that (I for one) am trying to make is that Aerith's affections for Cloud--although real--are based on a fallacy. PERIOD. She NEVER gets to know the real Cloud.

If my husband dies and years later I start dating someone that I just happened to have met in the EXACT place as I did my husband, and he just happened to have the SAME job, and the same odd eyes, and just HAPPENS to have similar mannerisms and drive the same car (sword)... wouldn't you call my feelings suspect?

Aerith loves Cloud because she loves what he represents. THAT is genuine. But the depth of that for CLOUD himself is questionable. I know that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for the 'but she DID know Cloud' crowd and the 'but she knew she didn't know the real Cloud, so she must have loved the real Cloud, because she was aware that she didn't really know him for real' people, but as OWD has pointed out, there are things in the narrative that blatantly TELL US what Aerith's affections are.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Joppylop, you are much too intelligent, articulate, and rational for this debate!

A large part of what makes Aerith's death so poignant and tragic is that, as with all real deaths of young people, nothing in her life was complete and many things were in the process of change. She was moving on from Zack and she was falling in love with Cloud, but her life was cut short before these issues could come to any conclusion. For me the inconclusiveness is the actual point, and trying to force a conclusion where there deliberately is none is silly.

I see everyone's starting to jump on the red-font-hate bandwagon.