The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Celes Chere]

Lol I just found this in my photobucket. XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

...What the fuck is going on in here?

 

[Eerie]

I don't know.

Although, I can say that the vote for who Aerith loves would be stupid, since she loves both - and that has been debated already.

And oh yeah, EX-SOLDIER, we're not really serious you know. Here, people naturally argue that Cloud and Tifa are canon. This is why this is a joke thread nao. You're two threads late XD *seems him being lost*

 

[Vendel]

It's time for Vendel's comprehension lesson for the night. We need someone to make an idiotic statement. Anyone will do. Ah yes! You two well known cleriths.

After all, Tifa's profile in the 10th AU called Aerith a love rival even two years after her death:

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.
Tifa's character profile, 10th AU

Notice how it says that Aerith's a "love rival" in present tense? happy.gif I would think that Tifa would see Cloud's continued feelings for Aerith as a burden to any potential for romance developing between Tifa and Cloud.
.............
Oh, hey. That's a good point. It's PRESENT tense. Apparently Aerith's being...breathing challenged doesn't relegate her to past tense.

First off why don't we finish that Tifa profile quote? Not that I would accuse anyone of only giving half a quote if they thought it could support them.

This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

[FFVII] Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.
[AC] Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.
[AC] Tifa, smiling towards Aerith’s presence. Cherishing Aerith is Tifa’s honest feeling.

Now here is a funny thing. The first paragraph is talking about Aerith and Tifa being friends and possible love rivals. Not that they are....but you could look at it that way. (At least while Aerith is alive) So this would indicate what happened on the first disk of the game.

Then the next paragraph talks about Tifa's feelings two years later. So we have time jumped to AC/C. And looky here it even goes into some detail about why Tifa's feelings are complicated. And we have helpful visual aids with captions as well.

In other words they are talking about two separate issues. Love rival/friend vs source of guilt/memory. Both have to do with Tifa's complex feelings for Aerith. It does not mean that Aerith is her love rival TWO YEARS AFTER HER DEATH.

 

[Gabranth]

Who she loves more is what I meant. That seems to be what was being debated for most of the thread anyway and I did in fact read every single page.

Lulu: Sad, isn't it.

EDIT:
Isn't this whole "can't love someone after death" thing a bit ridiculous? Dead people falling in love happens all the time in fiction. Ghost is a very famous example.

And then there's Bleach...but the dead people there are barely even dead in any way so nvm.

 

[Eerie]

Tilting at windmills? Gogo, don Quixote! XD

You're going to find people who, like me, find this irrelevant, since she's... dead. And there's nothing fluffy about being dead, especially when you're a Cetra who must look over the Planet.

I can however tell you who she belongs with, given what ACC cemented, and that's Zack. But they're both dead. So yeah, again, nothing fluffy.

 

[Vendel]

EDIT:
Isn't this whole "can't love someone after death" thing a bit ridiculous? Dead people falling in love happens all the time in fiction. Ghost is a very famous example.

And then there's Bleach...but the dead people there are barely even dead in any way so nvm.

This isn't Ghost or Bleach. It's FFVII.

The dead are not shown doing much falling in love after death. Or anything else for that matter. Take a look at Aerith. If she were so in love AFTER SHE HAD DIED would she not try and contact Cloud before gaining the knowledge that Sephy-Poo was still around and was going to go after him? But by her own thoughts she wasn't doing much of anything nor thinking about much from her old life.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

We need someone to make an idiotic statement. Anyone will do.

Good thing we've got ya on speed dial huh then?

The dead are not shown doing much falling in love after death. Or anything else for that matter.

Yeah, when you die in FF7 you're dead for good, you get to spend eternity doing nothing. You totally aren't gonna be spreading plagues, using Limit Breaks, excerting your will to create avatars in your own fragmented image, appearing to friends in visions, talking to them. Nope, when you're dead you're gone in the FF7 world, too bad so sad.......wait......

It isn't unreasonable to think Aerith could fall in love with Cloud after death, she still exists, she still thinks, she's still conscious and sentient, and she now can see Cloud as he really is under the false persona. Considering all the Ho Yay that festers with Sephiroth after his death it is really close-minded to declare Aerith's feelings can't change after hers.

 

[Gabranth]

I hate how Nomura retconned it so FFX and FFVII take place in the same universe. While it's true Spira's afterlife mildly resembles FFVII's, in debates like this, you can clearly see the differences.

No Unsent in FFVII. Well, except Sephiroth and Aerith but they're special. Tons of people are unsent in FFX.

Plus there is no collective consciousness in FFX as far as I saw. You retain your individuality after dying.

I guess you could explain it as planets have similarities but aren't identical...
But if you're gonna do that, why make them the same universe anyway? All the FF worlds have similarities.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Let's consider that Tifa and Aerith are, in fact, Love Rivals.

Guess what that means. FUCK ALL. It means they are rivals for the affections of someone. It does not necessarily mean the person they have a rivalry over LOVES THEM BOTH BACK, IF HE LOVES EITHER AT ALL. You are trying to use semantic bullfuckery, and you are FAILING, ladies.
I know of a number of times when gals in anime become love rivals, and both fail to get the guy, since he's aimed for girl no.3. Aerith being a love rival doesn't support your position.
Hell, the only thing it being in present tense would support is that Aerith is trying to woo from beyond the grave. And without you proving shit pre-mortem, her trying to pull shit post-mortem is still the creepiest damn thing since Mukki standing over you as you wake up.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong- once again, sans Ultimanias at the moment, but wasn't that love rival bit also in the same tense as everything else? That it should be 'could be' rather than 'can be'?

In any case, yes, the pinkers are equivocating and misquoting to imply that the reasons the feelings are complicated 2 years later are for the same reasons as they were when she was still also gunning for Cloud's affections.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I hate how Nomura retconned it so FFX and FFVII take place in the same universe. While it's true Spira's afterlife mildly resembles FFVII's, in debates like this, you can clearly see the differences.

No Unsent in FFVII. Well, except Sephiroth and Aerith but they're special. Tons of people are unsent in FFX.

Plus there is no collective consciousness in FFX as far as I saw. You retain your individuality after dying.

I guess you could explain it as planets have similarities but aren't exactly alike...but if you're gonna do that, why make them the same universe anyway? All the FF worlds have similarities.

I don't get why he did that either. Apparently the Japanese term used to refer to Sephy's remnants is the same term used for Unsent in FFX, which is clever and appropriate, but yeah, the Farplane and Lifestream are very different concepts. Not to mention the incredible timeframe problems this creates when we're now told FF7's world is Spira a few thousand years in the future.

Let's consider that Tifa and Aerith are, in fact, Love Rivals.

Guess what that means. FUCK ALL. It means they are rivals for the affections of someone. It does not necessarily mean the person they have a rivalry over LOVES THEM BOTH BACK, IF HE LOVES EITHER AT ALL

Agreed.

 

[Vendel]

Good thing we've got ya on speed dial huh then?

Stop flirting with me Drake. It's unbecoming.

Yeah, when you die in FF7 you're dead for good, you get to spend eternity doing nothing.

No you get diffused into the lifestream.

You totally aren't gonna be spreading plagues, using Limit Breaks, excerting your will to create avatars in your own fragmented image, appearing to friends in visions, talking to them. Nope, when you're dead you're gone in the FF7 world, too bad so sad.......wait......

So you have Sephy and Aerith reacting to him? Where are they after AC? They are the aberrations. Not the rule. Most of the other Cetra we see don't do much of anything. Where is Aerith's mother for example?

It isn't unreasonable to think Aerith could fall in love with Cloud after death, she still exists, she still thinks, she's still conscious and sentient, and she now can see Cloud as he really is under the false persona. Considering all the Ho Yay that festers with Sephiroth after his death it is really close-minded to declare Aerith's feelings can't change after hers.

Stop making shit up. Aerith by her own thoughts was not thinking about Cloud, nor much of anything else to do with the world of the living. That is until she ran into Sephy.

And I'm sorry when did Aerith "see Cloud as he really is" before or after death?

And please tell me where they show anyone's feelings changing after death. Your entire post reads like a bad fanfic.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Stop flirting with me Drake. It's unbecoming.

Go flirt with a wood chipper.

So you have Sephy and Aerith reacting to him? Where are they after AC? They are the aberrations. Not the rule. Most of the other Cetra we see don't do much of anything. Where is Aerith's mother for example?

And Zack in ACC. Where are they after AC? Considering that all we have after AC is DoC, which shows the rest of the FF7 gang about as often as AC/C showed Sephy and Aerith, who knows? They are not the rule, agreed. But the three of them collectively show it is possible to retain your consicousness and influence the living world within the Lifestream.

Stop making shit up. Aerith by her own thoughts was not thinking about Cloud, nor much of anything else to do with the world of the living. That is until she ran into Sephy.

I didn't say she was, don't put words in my mouth.

And I'm sorry when did Aerith "see Cloud as he really is" before or after death?

Any time after her death, considering ALL her interactions and observaitons of him after said death involve Cloud's true persona. Her conversations with him in AC/C, and it isn't hard to assume she's watching what's going on even when she isn't on screen.

And please tell me where they show anyone's feelings changing after death.

You're right, that's fair. I guess Aerith's "beloved" line means she DID love Cloud when she was alive. Yar, I went thar. :p

In all seriousness, they don't explictly show someone's feelings changing, no. Nor do they show any evidence that the feelings can't change. I'm not saying they did or did not, I'm saying the possibility is there until disproven.

Your entire post reads like a bad fanfic.

And yet it still manages to be more coherent than most of what you post.

 

[Gabranth]

Pardon my ignorance but are pinkers supposed to be Clerrith fans?
Are CloTi fans titters then?

Hell, the only thing it being in present tense would support is that Aerith is trying to woo from beyond the grave. And without you proving shit pre-mortem, her trying to pull shit post-mortem is still the creepiest damn thing since Mukki standing over you as you wake up.

What's creepy about loving someone after you die? Death is nothing more than another stage of existence. There's no reason to stop doing what you were doing preciously.

I's not like she's a zombie with her skin dangling off, lumbering after Cloud.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Pardon my ignorance but are pinkers supposed to be Clerrith fans?
Are CloTi fans titters then?

I suppose the appropriate Cloti equivalent of "pinker" is "Clito." Yes, I've seen Clotis who call themselves that, they exist.

What's creepy about loving someone after you die? Death is nothing more than another stage of existence. There's no reason to stop doing what you were doing preciously.

I's not like she's a zombie with her skin dangling off, lumbering after Cloud.

In FF7 world, exactly, you still exist in the Lifestream, some people still retain their consicousness.

 

[Vendel]

And Zack in ACC. Where are they after AC? Considering that all we have after AC is DoC, which shows the rest of the FF7 gang about as often as AC/C showed Sephy and Aerith, who knows?

Where are they? Where they belong. The lifestream. As for Zack. It's made quite clear he doesn't do much until Aerith finds him again.

They are not the rule, agreed. But the three of them collectively show it is possible to retain your consicousness and influence the living world within the Lifestream.

Like those Cetra in the temple of the ancients who forgot how to speak? This isn't FFX. Aerith isn't going to pull an Auron and go on adventures with the gang again. The most she does is piss the LS out over the people in Midgar. And pop in Clouds head a few times. Them BAM she is gone again.

Any time after her death, considering ALL her interactions and observaitons of him after said death involve Cloud's true persona. Her conversations with him in AC/C, and it isn't hard to assume she's watching what's going on even when she isn't on screen.

She is watching him? When? Before ACC when she wasn't thinking about him? Or after ACC where she goes back to the LS to hang out with Zack?

And what exactly is Aerith observing in ACC? Cloud feeling bad? HOLY SHIT SHE KNOWS HIM SO WELL NOW!

You're right, that's fair. I guess Aerith's "beloved" line means she DID love Cloud when she was alive. Yar, I went thar. :p

In all seriousness, they don't explictly show someone's feelings changing, no. Nor do they show any evidence that the feelings can't change. I'm not saying they did or did not, I'm saying the possibility is there until disproven.

Aerith's feelings don't change. But her acceptance of the fact that she is dead and all that is behind her now sure seems prevalent.

Funny how she has accepted something you and others can't seem to.

And yet it still manages to be more coherent than most of what you post.

Cry me a river.

What's creepy about loving someone after you die? Death is nothing more than another stage of existence. There's no reason to stop doing what you were doing preciously.

I love this "death is no barrier" shit.

Uh..yeah it is. As I said above. Aerith has accepted the fact that she is dead and her "living life" is behind her. She can care for him. But if she tries and continue a relationship after death it becomes really fucking creepy.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Like those Cetra in the temple of the ancients who forgot how to speak? This isn't FFX. Aerith isn't going to pull an Auron and go on adventures with the gang again. The most she does is piss the LS out over the people in Midgar. And pop in Clouds head a few times. Them BAM she is gone again.

Just because she can't "pull an Auron" doesn't mean Aerith just isn't around anymore. Summoning the Lifestream, speaking to Cloud, Great Gospel...

Also, not relevant much but even Tifa and Marlene can seemingly sense her presence without her appearing outright.

Funny how she has accepted something you and others can't seem to.

Really, because I seem to recall constantly saying words to the effect of "yes she's dead, we accept this." But then, you always did have a problem really listening and comprehending posts that aren't your own.

Cry me a river

I will, then I can drown you in my tears. Poetic deaths have always appealed to me.

She can care for him. But if she tries and continue a relationship after death it becomes really fucking creepy.

This is where the comprehension problems come in. We never said anywhere here "Aerith loves Cloud after death and hopes for a relationship with him." Why is it impossible to think that Aerith loves Cloud but does accept her death and life as over and accepts nothing will come of her feelings for him? Why can't Cloud have loved Aerith in the past and move on with his life while Aerith loves him but accepts they can't have a relationship due to her being dead. There is no law written anywhere that states if Aerith loves Cloud and Cloud loves her after her death, they must be holding out for each other. And if there is show me this law, if it is written somewhere I'd like to see.

 

[Strangelove]

Apparently the Japanese term used to refer to Sephy's remnants is the same term used for Unsent in FFX

IIRC, not really.

And by not really, I mean not at all. FFX was 死人 (shibito/'deceased/dead') whereas remnants are 思念体 (shinentai).

It was also Nojima who mentioned this connection, and it did involve thousands of years and different planets.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Oh, really? Hm, thanks for that. I think I read that on the FFWiki, better go correct it then. :p

EDIT - Yeah, FF Wiki.

The Japanese word used to describe the Remnants, shinentai (which translates roughly to "will given form"), is the same word originally used to describe the Unsent of Final Fantasy X, whose properties they share. The word "shinentai" is often rendered as "avatar" in English materials.

 

[Celes Chere]

God, Drake x Vendel gets better by the day.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

God, Drake x Vendel gets better by the day.

 

[Gabranth]

Nojima, Nomura... I guess I should familiarize myself with who is who in the FFVII team.

I guess I just hear Nomura talked (or rather, bitched about) more.

 

[Celes Chere]

I LIKE BEING COMPARED TO VAAN

WE'RE BOTH RETARDED XDD

 

[Gabranth]

Seriously though, how could anyone hate Vaan after that? The "i'm Captain Basch" bit has to be one of the best moments in FF history.

Don't listen to Ondore's lies!
He's obviously a Cloti shipper.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

**yawn** Are we seriously back to debating? I missed all the cute Yuri?

DoC is pretty clear evidence that Aerith, Zack and Sephy are all buh-bye. Not lingering in the LS, and even if they were: no, people can't hold their consciousness. That's bullshit right thar. Cetra can, and Materia Jesus is only HALF that, so she lingers, but she doesn't stay. Zack was floating consciousness until Aerith picked him up, and even then he was for the purpose of digging Cloud's head out of his ass. No indication that he was awake before or after the events of ACC and Sephiroth couldn't even remember what he LOOKED like. He did not hold his consciousness, he held his fucking hate.

now, we need more lesbian pics!!

not lesbian per se, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing them together:

Spoiler