The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[ForceStealer]

Unfortunately, Mako, that means that Maiden is mentioned again in another Ultimania.

 

[Strangelove]

@hitoshura

"They confirmed their feelings under the Highwind while Makoeyes recorded the sex with a video camera. Maiden is also not canon and anyone who thinks so is trolling and insane."

That's right from the 20th Anniversary section, "For the One I love."

I can't deny it if it's mentioned in a book.

I still think Square are just retconning things and you're not really canon. These are my thoughts, you cannot change them.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, you carry so much rage into this debate at times, you might as well change your avatar and username to "Dark Ryu."

I can feel your killing intent from here sometimes.

I get the killing intent at balls to the wall illogic and stupidity. Being raged at just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

In all honesty, I think the reason why this thread hardly has any debate anymore is the fact that when someone does come to debate, people here act like dicks towards them. It's not as if everyone spends all their time dissecting every part of the game. Not that I am, but if I were in a noob's shoes I would totally not want to share my thoughts and opinions with you guys, simply because I'd be afraid of being looked down and berated so harshly.

I think were you in noob's shoes, you'd have one pissed of admin hounding you for his footwear.
Unless you let him have your in exchange.

And yes, lulz, it's the Internet, but this is a fictional debate and people seem to be taking that much more seriously than the fact that people are offended over the Internet.

SRS BZNS. NEVAR FORGIVE. NEVAR FORGET.

 

[Vendel]

To lighten the mood it's time for the Pinker quote of the day!

You also have to remember that Cloud had apparently realized that he could see Aerith again in the place of supreme happiness, The Promised Land. Why wouldn't he be hopeful? The ony problem was, Cloud couldn't find The PL because he wasn't truly happy. He was being eaten alive with guilt and sorrow and I firmly believe this was the reason he was unable to communicate with Aerith.

So, a lot of CloTs like to say that Cloud didn't search for The PL or Aerith after FFVII. How do they know? It was never stated either way. And, think about it- wouldn't it be awfully pro-ClAeris to say that Cloud went looking for Aerith? I don't think the creators wanted it to be so obvious. They want you to think about it. For instance, Cloud's delivery service. How do we know Cloud wasn't searching for Aerith while he was out every day on the road?

I do like the sneaking that "Cloud wasn't happy" in there.

 

[Splintered]

To lighten the mood it's time for the Pinker quote of the day!



I do like the sneaking that "Cloud wasn't happy" in there.

You need to start arguing on youtube, it can't be good for your mental health. You get people using lack of proof as proof in of itself.

Also, people seem to forget that Aerith's spiritual therapy session didn't exactly work wonders either. It was everybody's support that got Cloud out of his funk.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

So, a lot of CloTs like to say that Cloud didn't search for The PL...

Goddamn Ninja Clotis!!!!

 

[Raquelborn]

Hang on a second, people.

*Takes off ninja outfit*

Cloud doesn't really search for the promised land. He says he may find "her" (AKA Aerith) there in the original game, but then nothing more is mentioned of it. Next mention is of him finding his own promised land amongst his friends and family.

He didn't really search for it. He just seemed to find it in my opinion.

 

[Eerie]

What we know he searched was a way to cure Geostigma [to cure Denzel]. Never once he mentions the Promise Land and the fact that he finds it at the end of AC/C is just to show that he not only did he find his own paradise [that he already had] but that he finally accepted it - a peace of mind he didn't have previously that made him recognize where he belongs and accept happiness.

The end of AC/C marks the end of "the happier Cloud gets, the guiltier he feels" [rough quote] and that's why he can finally aknowledge this "promise land". The Promise Land is not the after ever, IMHO, but where you are happy, and this is why Cloud finds it - he is not alone anymore, he has friends and family he can rely on.

Amusingly enough "Promise Land", the land of promises, is making me think about that one he shared with Tifa, but that's more an amusing fact than a canon one XD

 

[null]

I'M TIRED OF YOUR TROLLIN'!!!!

GO CHOKE ON YOUR MEGAZORD FLUTE!

That is not sound logic at all. Maiden isn't being called on its canon for its inconsistencies alone. It's inconsistencies, the fact its written by an outside author, is never mentioned in any subsequent Compilation installment, is never referred to as part of the Compilation, and is contradicted by almost every damn Compilation installment to date is why any sane person is saying its not canon.

If you want to have sex just say so.

 

[EX_SOLDIER]

Off topic again anyone?

 

[Celes Chere]

Then post and make it on topic. =P

 

[EX_SOLDIER]

It's gone so far off I don't even know what the last part of the original conversation was. I'm too lazy to go find it anyway.

 

[Joker]

i love how omega comes in here just to make conversation/troll/give opinions and everyone still gets SO FUCKING WORKED UP ABOUT IT

considering that you "won" the LTD (if that's even a good thing) you guys are awfully touchy about this shit

THANK YOU

I WISH I COULD THANK THIS POST TEN THOUSAND TIMES OVER FOR EMPHASIS


Yeah, I was trolling. That should have been fairly obvious the second I entered the thread, because everyone who gives a shit by now knows A) that I don't really give a damn about the LTD; B) that I support Cloti (I'm not an idiot, ffs); and C) that I think the continuation of the LTD is ridiculous in and of itself, because there's no debating happening and everyone already knows the truth!

So I tried my hand at Clerith arguing. Again, the first sign that I was trolling.

And yet, as obvious as it was, you still rose to the bait with extreme snark and rage that was way out of proportion to a reasonable response. (also Ryu, the 'failed edit' bit was because I saw the previous post before the edit, and was amused that you felt the need for the edit; again, if I was being petty and a dick, you would know it beyond any shadow of a doubt, because I roll much harder than that).

And Audrey's following post, which I would also thank to the moon if possible, applies, as it was the second point - you call it a *DEBATE*, but when someone challenges your opinion of the situation (which, because there is no established, blatant, in-your-face "LOOK MOTHERFUCKERS, [enter ship of choice] IS CANON" means that there is no established canon, and therefore said speculation *IS* opinion), you all fly off the handles and make them never want to come to the site ever again because you're such dicks about it. And for what? A game that's over ten years old. A GAME. Extreme overreactions are extreme, and, try as you might, you have absolutely no justification for such. You can say "well they do this, too" all you want - that doesn't make it right, now does it? And if you're truly going to claim that they play dirty and are unreasonable, then you can hardly play by the same rules they do and expect people to take you seriously.

Then again, as it's the LTD for a game (as aforementioned), maybe you don't care if you're taken seriously. In that case...why the rage? Why the debate? Why rise to someone saying that the whole thing is ridiculous?


Random thoughts:

Ryu, 'affectionate teasing' is an extremely weak argument. Not getting into it, just pointing it out. The rest was fairly reasonable well done. Minus five points, though, for your habit of trying to convince the other party that you're intellectually superior to them by using big words in order to attempt to confuse them into making bad points. While it's a relatively legitimate debate strategy, it's common courtesy to be a fair sport. It also lends itself to the spiraling out of control thing.

Please note, however, that I'm not saying I couldn't keep up with it.

Also, seriously, soft positional bargaining won't work. /advice

Ed: I almost forgot. Me? Get worked up over the LTD? Thank you for the lulz, sir

I had one for FHS but, after typing it, decided that it was a waste of time. I will say this, though - condescension and intimidation tactics also won't work. But you should know this, since you've been to an Ivy League school. (which one, btw? seriously wondering because I've been debating whether Stanford, Oxford, Yale, or Princeton is the way to go, and the opinion of an alumni would be most enlightening)

Mako: she's right. Go to your happy place, and take about six Valium. Again, you should have known I was trolling, albeit with a point in mind. =P


Also, mad props to Splintered and Shadowfox for being sporting about it all.


To sum up all of this, I present you with the following summary of this thread:

 

[Celes Chere]

you're intellectually superior to them by using big words in order to attempt to confuse them into making bad points

This is the only part of what you said that I disagree with. Why should someone have to hold back if someone else isn't on the same intellectual level that they are? =P I know I wouldn't lower my thoughts to retard level to match some other retard. And if I had something to say, I would say it honestly and if the other person doesn't get it, they can ask me to clarify or it's their loss, lol.

 

[Joker]

Because it's sporting to not do that; it makes it seem like you're lording it over the other guy. A skilled debator who IS that intelligent can successfully debate anyone like that, no matter how retarded the other person may be.

There's a difference between retard level, and what is understandable by the average person.

You're not holding back - you're making your victory more complete because you won on "their terms", in a manner of speaking.


Edit: I also almost quoted Dacon's 'why so serios' to become 'why so sefiros', but it was too early on for that. >;

 

[Celes Chere]

I dunno, it just never felt that way to me. I always admired the usage of words that I didn't know, or ones that aren't used often. Not only does it widen your own vocabulary (if you look into it), but it's impressive. At least, it is to me. I don't think anyone is trying to use big words here, I think we're all just speaking like we normally do. Am I the only one who feels this way? XD

Ehh, I don't see it that way. I wouldn't change the way I speak for anyone. If they don't like how I am, then they're going to have to deal with that methinks.

 

[Joker]

But you should also take into consideration that not everyone feels the same way.

Personally, I have to talk the way I do because that's the simplest way for people to understand me. Otherwise, it tends to go over their heads a lot. And I really, really hate having to repeat myself or explain what should be obvious. =/


short version: might be good for their vocabulary, but most people don't really care about that; but maybe I'm just too 'nice' to random, faceless unknowns.

 

[Celes Chere]

I do take it into consideration, but why should I change who I am for someone? Especially if it's habit. Those are hard to break. Also, asking someone to stop using big words just seems like you're telling them to dumb it down. I know that ISN'T the case, but that's how it sounds. There's nothing wrong with asking someone to clarify something that they have said. Really, what's the shame in that rather than trying to change a person completely to match your own needs?

I talk the way I do because... it's me. There's no way I would stop acting the way I do just because someone else has a problem with it, lol. Unless I was being a jackass. And using 'big words' is not being a jackass.

I know most people don't care about that, but I do. xD I was just expressing the perks. It's better than "typin leik dis laozl" where people actually CANNOT understand you at all, and are not forming decent sentences.

 

[Joker]

The way you type, and the words you use, are very different. xD

And it's a pride thing; a lot of people won't ask because it makes them feel stupid.

Context clues, kids - they're there for a reason.

 

[Celes Chere]

Yes... I know that. I'm saying that I wouldn't change WHAT I type either.

Then that's their fault, lol.

 

[Raquelborn]

In order to sway someone's opinion, being deliberately intimidating, belittling, patronising and taking the intellectual high ground is not the way to do it, or so I've found in my experience. People will be much more willing to listen to you and understand your points of view if you talk to them in a way they can understand and don't make them feel stupid for thinking different from you.

Although if people debate more for the fun of making others look like fools then they will do as they like, I suppose.

 

[Eerie]

Mmh, complicated vocabulary? I'm not a native English speaker, but I didn't feel that way ~___~ Then again, some of my American friends are studying to be lawyers and whatnot, so they tend to use even a higher vocabulary - but for them, it's more common, it is the way they speak.

I personally signed in for the lulz the LTD brought but yeah, I think the lack of debaters makes people too eager to have something to debate on. Hence when one joins, we might scare them XD

I tend to think that people who are well-informed are less numerous anyway. I stumbled on the On the way to a smile novellas per pure luck years ago [I only read Tifa's back then though XD], and I think most fans simply don't know about their existence. I can't remember who [I think it was Isabella] who said that SE should turn the novellas into anime or something, so people would know about them [the way they did about Case of Denzel in fact]. Especially Case of Tifa, since it would show Cloud right after FFVII and how he acts with Tifa [blushing, saying he'd be there for her, etc, etc] - and it would show how things went between FFVII and ACC, how he evolved and why he was like that in ACC. Because it's fine and dandy that it's in a novella, but most fans don't even know it exists.

 

[Raquelborn]

I tend to think that people who are well-informed are less numerous anyway. I stumbled on the On the way to a smile novellas per pure luck years ago [I only read Tifa's back then though XD], and I think most fans simply don't know about their existence.

It's so true. I only came across Case of Tifa despite two years of loving the film and browsing YouTube for AC AMVs when I came across a CloudxTifa slide show with what I thought were fake/fan-fabricated quotes flying across it. Shock OMG shock when it turned out to be an official novella.

Case of Tifa definitely needs to get animated. It's probably the most important next to Denzel's because it shows Cloud's deterioration, as you said.

 

[Celes Chere]

are studying to be lawyers

Funny - Ryu, wasn't that your area of study as well? XD

I really don't think that's what's going on in his posts though, as far as vocabulary goes. And that's all I'm talking about here. Patronizing and such, is something else. Unless a person first does it to me, I see no reason to belittle them / act sarcastic unless it's for fun. And even though you'd know I'm joking. Like I said before, having a high vocab is not the same as being a dick.

 

[Strangelove]

Really, what's the shame in that rather than trying to change a person completely to match your own needs?

I think that would be the proper thing to do. When writing, you're meant to adapt the way you write to your audience.

At least that's what I learnt. I spent years failing to write stuff directed at kids

Obviously a forum might be a different matter, but still. If you don't know your audience (as would probably be the case online most of the time), then you might be better off avoiding really high-flung or technical words for the sake of getting your point across to the highest number of people.