The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Makoeyes987]

Wow, FFVII is comparable to the Bible and Shakespeare, now.

...And people ask why our fandom is frowned upon so often.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Read a freaking book, get a degree in some kind of social science (or english lit, or liberal arts, I don't care - just something that'll encourage you to use the mush between your ears), and grow up.

wait are they implying that a science degree that's actual science isn't a good degree? It's good to know that the mush between my ears only knows useless things like Calculus and Chemistry.

 

[crack]

...And people ask why our fandom is frowned upon so often.

I think the FFVII fandom is pretty much frowned upon because of the LTD.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the FFVII fandom is pretty much frowned upon because of the LTD.

That, and pretentious cocksuckers keep putting FFVII up like its one of the greatest works of literature to come from the modern era. With such varied nuances of interpretation and subjective wit, that anyone claiming to have a full grasp of its intricate and detailed plot is simply insane.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And Tres, you're saying that the only reason Tifa realized shit was wrong with Cloud was because of the oddities in his memory of the Nibelheim Incident, but the same profile you're quoting regarding Tifa says specifically:

She was reunited with Cloud during one of AVALANCHE’s activities, and invited him to join the organization in order to watch over him after finding many strange aspects in his speech and behavior.

You never get tired of being wrong, do you, cupcake?

How did you miss my quoting the script where Tifa recalls her reunion with Cloud at the train station in Sector 7 -- in which their first conversation leads to Cloud apparently getting facts wrong? She then outright says that it was the things he talked about knowing that he shouldn't have and the things he didn't seem to know that he should which worried her.

She also says the reason she invited him to have a job with AVALANCHE was so that she could figure out what was going on.

So, yeah, it was his facts that were alerting her:

Tifa
"How long has it been?"

(The screen flashes again. Three times. He grabs his head, in pain, but Tifa does not seem to notice.)

Cloud
"Five years."

Tifa
"............"

Cloud
"What is it?"

Tifa
"...It's really been a long time."

(The screen darkens, but does not disappear.)

Tifa
"Actually, it's been seven years."
"You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary..."
"You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim..."
"But..."
"...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about."
"All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things you shouldn't know that you did..."
"I wanted to make sure..."
"But then I heard... you were going far away..."

(The screen finally goes to black.)

Tifa
"And I didn't want that..."
"I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time."
"And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you."

Right at the beginning of her FFVII character summary. Tifa did not just realize Cloud was mentally wrong due to the fact he had his memory of the Nibelheim massacre wrong. It says specifically due to his speech and behavior, she was made aware of Cloud's mental problems.

Going back to the same profile and the material I've already quoted, it said that his speech and behavior were in conflict with facts from the past:

Out of goodwill for Cloud, she didn’t voice out her personal thoughts. There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also . . . .

I'm still thinking it has a whole lot to do with him saying things like "five years" -- and maybe him staring off into space, grabbing his head every now and then, etc. -- but very little to do with things like him having confidence.

Really, what was so startling about him being self-confident? He was still an aggressive little fuck, which is perfectly in line with the Cloud she remembered, and while the self-confidence thing is a drastic departure, it's not at all surprising since Cloud apparently got into SOLDIER and became a superhuman.

Kalm didn't cement her knowing something was off ...

You're confusing me now. I didn't say anything there about Kalm being related to Tifa's realization that things were off with Cloud.

Yes, because Cloud knew things he shouldn't have, but from get go she knew he wasn't himself.

Because he was apparently getting facts wrong right from the get go.

Fuck me sideways, guys, I quoted the script where they were reunited in the same post you both responded to.

This would matter if I suggested that Tifa's emotions developed in-game. I said she began to crush on 'real Cloud' back in Nibleheim, so the fact that she recognizes something wrong with AVALANCHE Cloud should say that it's not THAT version of Cloud she's falling for. Of course she demonstrates love for him, I don't see how that changes anything. Tifa's emotions were in place before the game began and only become more complicated as a result of fucked up Cloud's behavior. You can't posit that she knew something was WRONG with the guy and imply that she was falling in love with THAT version of him.

This is a reasonable point and I won't venture to disagree with it.

All I'm really setting out to do here, though, is show that -- at the time of Aerith's death -- both women had comparable knowledge of the real Cloud. They both would have seen the same rare moments of compassion and such from him, as these things occurred in-game; meanwhile, Tifa's knowledge of the younger Cloud is only slightly more solid, I think, than what Aerith would have perceived.

Both of him knew him to be a shy, awkward doofus -- though Tifa knew him to be this in the past (probably wasn't sure if he was still in there somewhere) and Aerith knew him to be so in the present (somewhere under the cool, tough guy demeanor).

I'll certainly grant you that Tifa must have had a slightly more vivid image of this Cloud than Aerith, but that's all I would call it: a slightly more vivid image. All I've been saying all along here is that Tifa and Aerith were "pretty much on even ground" and "had comparable knowledge of the real Cloud."

So Aerith being Cetra allowed her to glimpse pieces of Cloud? Because that's not how I read that. I read it as that ability allows her to see that he's fractured and messed up, but there is no indication that she is able to glean his true self.

So how does she know that he's an awkward guy who -- no real surprise to her -- never went on a date in his life when he's strutting around like the cock of the walk?

Also, the fact that she has to rely on Cetra powers to gather this while Tifa knew based on knowledge of who Cloud was completely negates their 'equal footing'.

Well, you say this because you're assuming Cloud's self-confidence was alarming to Tifa, though -- as I've pointed out -- it was him apparently getting facts wrong that made her concerned.

He's a hot blond with a giant sword.

How do you know she normally likes blondes?

But aside from the obvious I never said she didn't like anything about him. I said the CLOUD attributes weren't what she was attracted to.

I just think that's too presumptuous to say. At the very least, his compassionate moments must have been endearing to her, if not his awkwardness as well.

I would imagine that once she realized this that maybe she would want to see if there was something there to pursue. I don't think she knew how much of Cloud she liked and how much was superimposed.

Sure, it's probable she didn't realize how much of the real Cloud might be mixed up in that false persona.

Can you guess why I bolded that? You can't argue that she knew the real Cloud (at least as much as Tifa did) and then state that she PLANNED on getting to know him.

Of course I can. I'm saying Tifa didn't know the real guy any better at the time.

She loved Cloud already solely for what she did know of the real him, but the extent of what she knew was no greater than what Aerith knew. Unless you want to include trivia like stuff about his mother and occasions where he got into fights.

WHAT CONVERSATIONS?!? Seriously, i'm asking, because even on the date it's only Aerith that does any kind of "big reveal" so please, show me where Cloud revealed himself.

Who's talking about big reveals? I'm talking about everything from their little chats of nothingness where Cloud said "I thought you were cut out to be in SOLDIER?" to him assuring that he and the others were there for her when she expressed distress at being the only Cetra left to him asking if she's okay when Tseng apparently died.

I would call these things conversations; and I refuse to even consider the notion that nothing of the real Cloud's personality was expressed in them.

Concern and support he expresses to everyone and that's a trait MOST humans have. Not Cloud specific. Cid supports and shows concern for her.

Yeah, well, I'm not going to assume someone has that trait -- despite them never demonstrating as much -- just because most humans have the trait.

By the way, you're very much obfuscating the point here, which was never that Cloud only shows his concern for her, nor that Cloud is the only one to demonstrate concern for her. Where you're even coming with that from I have no idea.

The point was -- and please highlight this with blinking signs and banners and streamers -- that this is an aspect of the real Cloud's personality that she got to know.

So, yes, she knew things about the real Cloud.

Awwwww, thanks!

As Que would say:

 

[Makoeyes987]

You never get tired of being wrong, do you, cupcake?

How did you miss my quoting the script where Tifa recalls her reunion with Cloud at the train station in Sector 7 -- in which their first conversation leads to Cloud apparently getting facts wrong? She then outright says that it was the things he talked about knowing that he shouldn't have and the things he didn't seem to know that he should which worried her.

That doesn't change the fact the book itself says that Tifa wasn't just made awares of Cloud's identity problem due to the fact he had his time table mixed up. It's right there in black and white text; if Tifa only knew about it due to Cloud's mistaken time frame, it'd have said so, and not say otherwise twice.

She also says the reason she invited him to have a job with AVALANCHE was so that she could figure out what was going on.

So, yeah, it was his facts that were alerting her

Again, that's not what the book says, regardless of what the game says on its own.

Going back to the same profile and the material I've already quoted, it said that his speech and behavior were in conflict with facts from the past:


I'm still thinking it has a whole lot to do with him saying things like "five years" -- and maybe him staring off into space, grabbing his head every now and then, etc. -- but very little to do with things like him having confidence.

Again. The book. Says. She was also made aware thanks to his odd behavior. It ain't just about his fucked up sense of time. Reducing it to that flies in the face of how they (the creators) summarize Tifa being able to discern that Cloud isn't acting right.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And you're assuming, n00bie, that by "behavior" it means his self-confidence -- when there's a perfectly (more) valid other possibility in the form of him clutching his head every five minutes. The fact that he does this sort of thing would make Tifa saying things like "I'm relieved you made it back safely" followed immediately by "are you feeling alright?" make sense.

Really, the guy having self-confidence was the least alarming behavior he was displaying.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And you're assuming, n00bie, that by "behavior" it means his self-confidence -- when there's a perfectly valid other possibility in the form of him clutching his head every five minutes. The fact that he does this sort of thing would make sense as to why Tifa would be saying things like "I'm relieved you made it back safely" followed immediately by "are you feeling alright?".

Really, the guy having self-confidence was the least alarming behavior he was displaying.

Well that's all true. But you can't just say Tifa only thought something was wrong with Cloud thanks to his issues with how many years its been. The fact Cloud's acting weird, not acting like himself, and being a jerk would definitely hint at the fact that this isn't exactly the same Cloud who left Nibelheim.

How else would she be able to know that using the promise as a reminder to make him stay would work, and thus keep him around even without pay?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'll grant you the point about him being a dick. That should have sent up red flags too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'll grant you the point about him being a dick. That should have sent up red flags too.

Yeah, there were behavioral cues that Cloud was not himself aside from his fits and head grabbing. Tifa may not be dealing with the same Cloud from when she was a kid, but certain traits and characteristics endure into adulthood. Cloud metamorphosing into a lone wolf, jerk who doesn't give a shit about anything but money... All while maintaining a cocky attitude and flirtatious nature, is just quite removed from the original she once knew.

Yeah people change, but that coupled with his fits, and inability to remember the truth would all come together to give Tifa insight that the Cloud she saw was definitely not right.

 

[Strangelove]

And for clarity's sake, DigiCube was Squaresoft's publishing subsidiary, so the Ultimanias were always published by Square.

ナイスコメント

I remember other companies being involved with them (like Capcom), but it looks like they only invested in it later on. I couldn't remember of it was a group effort or not.

cupcake?

I might have lol'd.

wait are they implying that a science degree that's actual science isn't a good degree? It's good to know that the mush between my ears only knows useless things like Calculus and Chemistry.

I wish I had done a proper science. My childhood dream was to be a scientist

Instead I filled my head mush with useful stuff like English lit and other such liberal nonsense.

 

[looneymoon]

...And people ask why our fandom is frowned upon so often.

They're just jealous because were prettier, cooler and more popular than they are.

...I like pie

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh god I love these idiots.



Is this what the kids call a flounce?

Yes. I do believe it is.

wait are they implying that a science degree that's actual science isn't a good degree? It's good to know that the mush between my ears only knows useless things like Calculus and Chemistry.

What always gets me, is that this sort of person is also not the type of person to ever actually listen to the sort of person who has the social science or liberal art or even literature degrees.

Also, being compared to a proselytizer by those folks (that is one of the ones from neoseeker, yes?) is always hilarious, since they never see the very shiny mirror.

Also, is that cart before the horse debating I detect? The assumption that he did love Aerith so he can still love Aerith after she's dead?
And those people are always so quick to dismiss the possibility Cloud still loves Tifa from his childhood, despite the inside of his mind, his own words, etc. etc. etc.



Also, as to the back and forth between lameninja dark and lameninja rainbow, I again bring up the analogy of the amenisatic, and the person who knew the amnesiatic beforehand, however cursorily, knows the amnesiatic better than the person who met them only during their memory loss.
Keep in mind, while Cloud and Tifa only have the one true heart to heart, they did have quite a number of years of casual interaction, even after Cloud being banned from seeing Tifa, enough for them to consider each other friends, even though they weren't close. It might not have been deep knowledge of each other, but it was enough for Tifa to trust Cloud enough to visit at the water tower at night and want to make a promise with him. She had a basic idea of his character, and she of his.
Aerith, due to her circumstances, and the short time she knew Cloud, did not have that opportunity, would not have had that same opportunity, even if Cloud had truly been himself. The time she had and the circumstances she had that time in mean she really had almost no chance to get to learn about Cloud, even at the end when she parsed a bit of the real him out of the Zach he was mixing in.
She still loved the boy, as I Ms. Xiang and I keep saying, she just didn't have much, if any, of him to center that love on, because there wasn't that much of him to examine at the time.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Also, as to the back and forth between lameninja dark and lameninja rainbow, I again bring up the analogy of the amenisatic, and the person who knew the amnesiatic beforehand, however cursorily, knows the amnesiatic better than the person who met them only during their memory loss.
Keep in mind, while Cloud and Tifa only have the one true heart to heart, they did have quite a number of years of casual interaction, even after Cloud being banned from seeing Tifa, enough for them to consider each other friends, even though they weren't close. It might not have been deep knowledge of each other, but it was enough for Tifa to trust Cloud enough to visit at the water tower at night and want to make a promise with him. She had a basic idea of his character, and she of his.
Aerith, due to her circumstances, and the short time she knew Cloud, did not have that opportunity, would not have had that same opportunity, even if Cloud had truly been himself. The time she had and the circumstances she had that time in mean she really had almost no chance to get to learn about Cloud, even at the end when she parsed a bit of the real him out of the Zach he was mixing in.
She still loved the boy, as I Ms. Xiang and I keep saying, she just didn't have much, if any, of him to center that love on, because there wasn't that much of him to examine at the time.

This. Bolded and highlighted.

 

[Dashell]

im sorry but be real what kind of feelings are revealed?
ok i have just revealed my feeling of hatred for this thred...it works...so therefore most of the massive post is not evidence...
b/c i have just revealed my feelings...

So yeah, "Cloud and Tifa revealed their feelings of hatred for one another and live together in AC and DoC"

 

[Max Caulfield]

So yeah, "Cloud and Tifa revealed their feelings of hatred for one another and live together in AC and DoC"

They're just living with each other for the sex.

I'd thought we'd already decided this!

 

[Eerie]

And to add to what Ryu said, aren't there a few months between the promise and Cloud's departure anyway? Since they're neighbours, you'd think that they would have time to meet up - because after such a shocking revelation, no way Tifa was going to ignore him anymore. I'm not sure about this though, but I did read this here so pardon me if I'm wrong >____>"

 

[Ite]

Wow. That's something I've actually never thought of. "Come this spring..."
I don't know why I assumed he left the next day.

Doioioing.

It's because Tifa's all like "When you said that you got teh novelty points and so I suddenly did a 180 and pined for you but I was a stupid kid" etc.
I assumed that she just sort of missed him once he was gone. On and on it seems to go... and all that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And to add to what Ryu said, aren't there a few months between the promise and Cloud's departure anyway? Since they're neighbours, you'd think that they would have time to meet up - because after such a shocking revelation, no way Tifa was going to ignore him anymore. I'm not sure about this though, but I did read this here so pardon me if I'm wrong >____>"

The phrase 'come the spring' has a particular semantic usage, I've found, and really only makes much sense in fall to midwinter as a date marker- otherwise, it turns into 'come next spring' or 'Next month' or otherwise more specific if too close to the start of spring, so it suggests there were a couple months to get to know each other. Given their attire, and the noting of the cold, I'm going to guess the night at the water tower probably happened in late september to october, before the cold really started to set in for winter.

 

[Bex]

An accurate summary of this thread.

 

[Joe]

I agree

 

[Ryushikaze]

An accurate summary of this thread.

I agree

Incorrect. The leaping smiler has not themselves been messily eviscerated.
Now skedaddle, you know you actually care. Elsewise you'd not keep checking in.

 

[Ladyofmoonlight]

The phrase 'come the spring' has a particular semantic usage, I've found, and really only makes much sense in fall to midwinter as a date marker- otherwise, it turns into 'come next spring' or 'Next month' or otherwise more specific if too close to the start of spring, so it suggests there were a couple months to get to know each other. Given their attire, and the noting of the cold, I'm going to guess the night at the water tower probably happened in late september to october, before the cold really started to set in for winter.

Wasn't the promise listed in an official timeline in an Ultimania somewhere? Thought it was December...

Edited to Add:
Ya, December
http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/107/complete-timeline-of-the-compilation-of-ffvii/

 

[Fairheartstrife]

December in the mountains is apparently really, really nice. O.o

Still gives a few months in the in-between for some 'getting to know you' time.

 

[Ite]

Well what do ya know.