The new "Ghosts" from the Symphonic Trailer

[X-SOLDIER]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1137926229124714498

https://imgur.com/eR1eHvM

I figured it'd be worthwhile to split a thread out about these guys specifically.

The key art makes it pretty clear that they're connected to Sephiroth. Like the cloaked figures from the original game, I'm pretty certain that these are the entities connected to the Reunion, and we're getting a sense of them earlier on during the game, but not in physical form. I still expect that we'll see them in physical form, but that these are serving as foreshadowing to them, as well as a new thread in enhancing the game's story.

My immediate guess is that these are some Reunion test subjects who're already deceased, and Aerith is actually seeing their spirits in the Lifestream in a similar way to how she sees the deceased before they fully return to the Planet. Cloud can only see them when he's in contact with her, so this seems like it's clearly meant to be her power – although it's possible that the ghosts are gathering because of Cloud, and his connection to Jenova, which is why Aerith doesn't see them until Cloud's nearby. It's also likely his connection to Jenova that's allowing him to see them at all once she's in contact with him, since Aerith's powers have always been strange and others haven't been able to see things through her eyes before – I doubt that they'd change it so that Elmyra could've actually seen her husband's ghost.

This would help tie Aerith in to the central plot around Reunion and also help to establish a connection between her and Cloud early on, so that the relationship triangle with Tifa is more distinct, and Aerith has a sense of safety and curiosity about Cloud that extends further than just his physical similarities to Zack. I've always felt that – especially since Crisis Core – it's important to help Cloud & Aerith's relationship feel genuinely unique between the two of them, and not just a reflection of what she had before, and I think that having the two of them feel connected to the mysteries of his past and of Reunion is going to REALLY add in the weight that it needed to make it clear why Cloud cared about her enough to become Mopey Advent Children Cloud afterwards.

Additionally, if the two of them are used to facing these sort of manifestations together and trusting each other against those sorts of forces... THAT SCENE when Cloud has to stop himself from being controlled against her, and despite everything he can do to resist, she's still killed... it's going to be MONUMENTALLY more devastating. It's taking the idea of Aerith needing a bodyguard that's specifically Cloud and really sinking all of the weight into it to show it going wrong right in front of him with all of the exact things that he's trying to help with.


Additionally, I'm also wondering if this will play a role with Nanaki, since as Red XIII he's also a tattooed test subject, and this sort of thing could help to provide context around the Gi Cave and what happened these, especially if it's going to set your team up as Cloud, Aerith, and Nanaki for that section. Either way, that's my guess about the "Ghosts" as well as why they've been added this way.




X

 

[Ite]

Ehhhhhh Fuck these things. I think your analysis is very good, but I can’t think of them as anything but gratuitous Special Edition bloating.

 

[Roger]

Thank you, X! I feel better about this development having read your thoughts on it!

 

[Shademp]

The black cloaks in the original game, to me, is one of the original game's most clumsy plot points. Having seen this spiritual "wraith" manifestation of the black cloaks however gives me hope that the final "real" black cloaks will be handled in a less clumsy fashion. If the call of the Reunion, or the will of Jenova or Sephiroth or what-have-you manifests as these floating black cloaks around you it makes far more intuitive sense that somebody falling victim to the Reunion would submit to dressing up in a black cloak.

I like where this is going.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think this is the first sign of SE implementing things they wanted to do back in the OG that they couldn't do for technical reasons. And that it's also a sign of how much (or how little) the story and presentation will vary from the OG. The Reunion and what it meant to be a Sephiroth Clone were very murky in the OG, so if this is SE making all that stuff much clearer this time around, all the more power to them.

If this is what Sephiroth Clones untimetly turn out to become, that will make the bombshell drop of Cloud being a failed Clone (and then a successful Clone) much more impactful because we already know how unnatural the Clones are.

 

[Wimbly]

I have to agree that IF these are the 'clones' then. yes, they must be deceased ones.

Both Cloud and Zack went through the exact same procedures as them. So it begs the question, why doesn't Zack suffer the same fate when he dies? Maybe he will in the remake?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

OMG the scene when Tseng shows up at Elmyra's to ask for Aerith's cooperation. "She's a very special child." So looking forward to that!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I have to agree that IF these are the 'clones' then. yes, they must be deceased ones.

Both Cloud and Zack went through the exact same procedures as them. So it begs the question, why doesn't Zack suffer the same fate when he dies? Maybe he will in the remake?

Zack & Cloud were never given tattoos, so the experiment may have yielded different results in their case. This also likely applies to Zack after he died. It may also explain whether or not he ever managed to reach Aerith after he died, since she doesn't seem to know if he's dead or not, despite knowing that for others who died prematurely and attempted to reach a loved one (like Elmyra's husband).

This is also one of the reasons why I hope that Nanaki being given an XIII tattoo gets explicitly called out a bit more in the Remake – especially since there are a total of 12 other tattooed & cloaked Reunion subjects in the original game. His innate connection to the Planet and his presence after the end of the game are interesting, and I feel like it's a point that's definitely important but it's never really been addressed – especially with him only really making a cameo appearance in AC. Anything to expand on the more naturally supernatural aspects of the original game (vis-a-vis the Lifestream after death and how Jenova is interfering with that) are very welcome in my book.

Having a better sense of Aerith living in Midgar – somewhere potentially swarming with the wraiths of the untimely dead, and being a beacon of light and life in a place otherwise central to death and decay is one of the points where I think that exposing that it doesn't just make her into the lovely white mage, but that there's a definitely spooky side of the "special child" as well is important.

This particular detail makes me think that the part in the ShinRa HQ surrounding Hojo have likely had some work put into them with what we learn and what details there are surrounding his work. The original game plays this really interesting balance around mad science and the supernatural, and how it skirts them towards each other but doesn't overlap them too heavily. I'm curious how that's gonna work in the Remake, but I think that there's just enough evidence to suggest that there's a lot of thought being put into the weird science around Sephiroth / Jenova / Reunion and how our characters interact with that in a gradual escalation (though how much of that extends to the other Midgar oddities like the Special Combatant remains to be seen).




X

 

[Shademp]

This is also one of the reasons why I hope that Nanaki being given an XIII tattoo gets explicitly called out a bit more in the Remake – especially since there are a total of 12 other tattooed & cloaked Reunion subjects in the original game.

There are more than 12, if we accept visual proof.

Here are the minimum number of black cloaks based on what the game shows us.

The black cloak at the Temple of the Ancients. This one falls over and dies and ascends in a weird light, presumably returning to the planet. If this scene was made now perhaps the black cloak would dissolve into green pyreflies.

Let us not count the black cloaks in Nibelheim and assume that they appear later in the Northern Crater, just so we avoid counting the same cloak twice.

The black cloak who dies at the hand of Schizo. Okay so that makes two cloaks.

Third black cloak when you're walking down the crater slope. This one appears to die as well. I'm going to assume he doesn't catch a second wind.

Fourth cloak walks off the cliff like some lemming. He/She/They/It ded.

Fifth and sixth cloak get pushed back through the wall of wind and they disintegrate if you speak to them. I assume they dead.

And here is the big one.

That counts 12 black cloaks on this screen alone (three of them don't make it beyond this screen).

So that gives us a count of 6 + 12 = 18 black cloaks, assuming every black cloak we hear of- and/or see in other parts of the game are encountered again at other points.


Oh, and then there's the black cloaks frozen in the glacier (I don't remember how many) in the novel "Final Fantasy VII The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story" if you want to count that.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I have always noticed more than 12, and always figured Red's number was from another line of experiments

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Thank you for the correction / clarification on stuff from the OG as always @Shademp

I was more referring to the fact that the explicitly numbered tattoos on Cloaked Guys that were found by the party go up to 12, but they don't pass Nanaki's #13 tattoo (insofar as I'm aware). It seemed to me like there was an intentional point to listing them to the party as leading up to Nanaki's experimental number that wasn't detailed, and I'm wondering if they're working towards building up that connection again. We can still potentially have a massive number of them if we're also getting them in this wraith-like form, since it's likely that Hojo triggered the behaviour in some form before he started explicitly experimenting towards that end and tattooing his successes.

I've always wanted the prior experimentation with Nanaki to be clarified since they even name his character "Red XIII" it calls SO MUCH attention to that detail. The fact that we get the tattooed Reunion numbers that lead up to, but don't surpass it, I can't help but think that that's something that they'd expand on. If the Aerith connection with Cloud is connected to Lifestream Reunion Wraiths, it would also make sense to dig into those themes alongside Nanaki in Cosmo Canyon in the Gi Cave, which is the other reason that I think that having them appearing in this form could tie into meaningful details on multiple levels of the story.

Also, I figure that maybe they're going to use some of this as precedent to make Hojo's... interrupted Certa hybridization experiment a little less of definitely the sort of thing that it was the OG, and maybe use it as an opportunity for the party to form a more meaningful bond with each other and a connection to the bigger picture of things with Sephiroth & Reunion since it's just before all the Trail of Blood and whatnot brings that sort of horror VERY much into the physical world.

 

[Lex]

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, if Nanaki’s Red XIII number gets expanded/connected to being part of Hojo’s Reunion Theory experiments, I could definitely see the Remake changing the “mating”/hybridization to Hojo experimenting to see how a Reunion experiment subject reacts to a Cetra individual.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well as I said in another thread about these , I don't think these ghosts are literal manifestations or replacements of the Sephiroth Copies.

I think they're an instance of the Remake expanding on Sephiroth's role in the story by utilizing early material concepts that had his stirring and awakening from within the planet heralded by evil spirits being drawn to him or those connected to him, like Cloud and Aerith. The will of Sephiroth draws spirits who are unable to find rest or just dark, malevolent entities.

It also kinda references how after Sephiroth died in FFVII, in "Lifestream Black" he was able to draw souls to him who were filled with darkness and mark them with his stigma, because he was able to manipulate and convert them to tainted spirit energy that created the Negative Lifestream.

In the end, I don't think they're trying to upend or change a major plot point of the game. They're just obviously going to do as much as they can to expand or pad the roles of everyone so they can make this game as large and drawn out as possible

As long as they make it interesting and relevant, I have no real worries.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Yeah, if Nanaki’s Red XIII number gets expanded/connected to being part of Hojo’s Reunion Theory experiments, I could definitely see the Remake changing the “mating”/hybridization to Hojo experimenting to see how a Reunion experiment subject reacts to a Cetra individual.

Even that could just be his preliminary tests how seeing if he could prove a sufficient level of compatibility between them, which still has the ultimate goal of developing a long-lived hybrid species, in order to preserve their genetic lineage and also further his experimentation. It keeps all the goals and everything exactly the same without needing to dive into the second stage of that process any more explicitly. Anything that helps to get him Promised Land & Reunion type information would still connect and serve the story in the same way, but I feel that this manages both.

I also think that if this initial interaction between her and Cloud is also what the experiment between Aerith and Nanaki produces, then this could also help serve as a good explanation for the sudden emergence in activity of Jenova's corpse being directly triggered by those experiments and Cloud being present, rather than being a convenient and horrible coincidence.

Well as I said in another thread about these , I don't think these ghosts are literal manifestations or replacements of the Sephiroth Copies.

I think they're an instance of the Remake expanding on Sephiroth's role in the story by utilizing early material concepts that had his stirring and awakening from within the planet heralded by evil spirits being drawn to him or those connected to him, like Cloud and Aerith. The will of Sephiroth draws spirits who are unable to find rest or just dark, malevolent entities.

It also kinda references how after Sephiroth died in FFVII, in "Lifestream Black" he was able to draw souls to him who were filled with darkness and mark them with his stigma, because he was able to manipulate and convert them to tainted spirit energy that created the Negative Lifestream.

In the end, I don't think they're trying to upend or change a major plot point of the game. They're just obviously going to do as much as they can to expand or pad the roles of everyone so they can make this game as large and drawn out as possible

As long as they make it interesting and relevant, I have no real worries.

The negative spirit thing would be interesting, but the only thing that makes me hesitant about that is that Aerith's been dealing with the spirits of the dead for a long time, and it'd odd that she's so particularly terrified by these ones – and that they're explicitly triggered when Cloud is close and that he can also see them.

I don't get the sense that they'd want to portray Aerith as being the person who's constantly afraid of and terrified by spirits of the dead (she's very matter-of-fact about them as a kid), or that she's totally helpless against malevolent ones, OR that she can make it so others can see what she does. Her power feeling like it's just some weird kid thing, and then being clearly real with Elmrya's husband is still the most stand-out reason. Them feeling specific to Sephiroth by more than just malevolence seems like it's factor, though I won't at all be mad if you're right & they are just extra spooky dead folks.



Anything that gets more into the expansion of the concepts of the Lifestream is good in my book. I'm also wondering if they'll have any of these things be related to Vincent's appearance / powers of hellish transformation. Since he's another Hojo experiment, and his original Limit Breaks are largely horror movie characters, it'd be interesting if they tied his forms and your inability to control him as a combatant into something like a directed possession by dark entities from the Lifestream that also enable his body to physically transform. (It'd even be able to keep with him being a foil to Omega WEAPON since they'd each be entities gathering up Lifestream into themselves).





X

 

[Makoeyes987]

The negative spirit thing would be interesting, but the only thing that makes me hesitant about that is that Aerith's been dealing with the spirits of the dead for a long time, and it'd odd that she's so particularly terrified by these ones – and that they're explicitly triggered when Cloud is close and that he can also see them.

Well that's the thing, they're evil spirits.

From the examples we've seen of Aerith communicating with the deceased or speaking to the planet, the manifestations she encounters are usually either normal looking spirits of those who are departed, or just the spirit energy itself.

But here, we see Aerith being confronted with actual malevolent entities that are probably trying to harm or harass her. This could be something she's never experienced or seen before. Like, someone being confronted by poltergeists and experiencing being grabbed, scratched or pushed violently.

This being triggered by Cloud or at least when she firsts meets him, could very well be an "omen" of Sephiroth, and the fact the spirits are seen around him in that artwork, is why I think they're a reference to the idea that Sephiroth's will/presence draws forth evil and monsters of the planet.

I don't get the sense that they'd want to portray Aerith as being the person who's constantly afraid of and terrified by spirits of the dead (she's very matter-of-fact about them as a kid), or that she's totally helpless against malevolent ones, OR that she can make it so others can see what she does. Her power feeling like it's just some weird kid thing, and then being clearly real with Elmrya's husband is still the most stand-out reason. Them feeling specific to Sephiroth by more than just malevolence seems like it's factor, though I won't at all be mad if you're right & they are just extra spooky dead folks.

Well these aren't regular spirits or dead people. I don't think this is something she's seen before, or is analagous to Elmyra's husband. These are malicious evil spirits connected to Sephiroth. Heralds of hims finally beginning to move and enact his plan from within the Northern Crater.

Anything that gets more into the expansion of the concepts of the Lifestream is good in my book. I'm also wondering if they'll have any of these things be related to Vincent's appearance / powers of hellish transformation. Since he's another Hojo experiment, and his original Limit Breaks are largely horror movie characters, it'd be interesting if they tied his forms and your inability to control him as a combatant into something like a directed possession by dark entities from the Lifestream that also enable his body to physically transform. (It'd even be able to keep with him being a foil to Omega WEAPON since they'd each be entities gathering up Lifestream into themselves)

X

Vincent's portrayal in this is going to be extremely interesting given what they've shown already with the combat system and what we know of Vincent's abilities.

Rejoice, everyone! We may actually get to play as a Vincent in a real Action RPG. An action RPG that allows him to use his gun via 3rd Person, transform into something other than Galian Beast, and jump more than 2 times!

Vincent Valentine will have more action, shooting, and potential physical combos and abilities in this Remake of FFVII alone, than he does in his own bare-bones medicore 3rd Person Shooter

That's just funny to me...FFVII Remake will use Vincent way more than Dirge of Cerberus did, the game he first starred in as the playable main character.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well that's the thing, they're evil spirits.

From the examples we've seen of Aerith communicating with the deceased or speaking to the planet, the manifestations she encounters are usually either normal looking spirits of those who are departed, or just the spirit energy itself.

But here, we see Aerith being confronted with actual malevolent entities that are probably trying to harm or harass her. This could be something she's never experienced or seen before. Like, someone being confronted by poltergeists and experiencing being grabbed, scratched or pushed violently.

This being triggered by Cloud or at least when she firsts meets him, could very well be an "omen" of Sephiroth, and the fact the spirits are seen around him in that artwork, is why I think they're a reference to the idea that Sephiroth's will/presence draws forth evil and monsters of the planet.

We know that normal people can become physically manifested as evil spirits like in the Gi Cave (even if they're mostly in the undead category), but there's also the Train Graveyard with literal ghosts of the dead, and those things are a special type of visible-to-everyone Undead (because of reasons likely placing them into the "Undead" category, whereas Aerith encounters people who are dead, but just a part of the Lifestream).

Given that Midgar is the kind of dystopian and horrible place that it is and Aerith's spending most of her life living in the Slums underneath all that, she's almost certainly going to have had encounters with Train Graveyard-type Ghosts – as well as with invisible evil spirits (since Midgar is a super-population-dense mega-city known to have tons of horrible people in it). It's pretty much statistically guaranteed that if there are any generic evil spirits within the Lifestream that Aerith would definitely have encountered them before the same way that she's encountered so many various other people who've died over the years just passing by.

To add to that, if we're still functioning on the idea that Aerith can't just voluntarily extend her powers out to other people to let them see these kind of naturally occurring Lifestream spirit entities (for the aforementioned reasons like Elmyra's Husband), Aerith isn't going to reach out to someone else for help with one of the "only visible to Cetra" kinds of entities – since she'd be more than aware by this age that no one else could help her with that kind of thing.

Those two points specifically are what makes me think that whatever these things are, they're something NEW and she doesn't just perceive them the same way that she perceives other Lifestream-spirit entities, otherwise her reaction wouldn't be asking a complete stranger for assistance with invisible phantoms that only she can see – especially in a place like Midgar.

The other part of this is the way that they only seem to manifest after she touches Cloud, which makes it seem like they ARE something that other people can't normally see, and not just the visible-to-everyone Ghosts. That either means that she can extend her powers to other people (unlikely for the aforementioned reasons), or that there's something specific about these entities that's allowing her to cause Cloud to see them – the Sephiroth connection.

If they are evil spirits, was it coincidental timing making them visible to Cloud just at that moment, or do you think that Aerith can extend her powers to other people? That's the part that's getting to me specifically because of Elmyra's thing being fairly important to the idea of all other humans not seeing what Aerith sees.

Vincent's portrayal in this is going to be extremely interesting given what they've shown already with the combat system and what we know of Vincent's abilities.

Rejoice, everyone! We may actually get to play as a Vincent in a real Action RPG. An action RPG that allows him to use his gun via 3rd Person, transform into something other than Galian Beast, and jump more than 2 times!

Vincent Valentine will have more action, shooting, and potential physical combos and abilities in this Remake of FFVII alone, than he does in his own bare-bones medicore 3rd Person Shooter

That's just funny to me...FFVII Remake will use Vincent way more than Dirge of Cerberus did, the game he first starred in as the playable main character.

X

 

[Nandemoyasan]

the bombshell drop of Cloud being a failed Clone (and then a successful Clone) much more impactful because we already know how unnatural the Clones are.

Cloud is not actually a Sephiroth Clone, but actually Cloud Strife who grew up in Nibelheim and got beat up a lot. I thought this plot point was pretty clear by now. Sephiroth is lying to him to dehumanize him and remove his sense of agency.

 

[jazzflower92]

You know those spirit thingies if they are connected with Sephiroth could better foreshadow his coming.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Cloud is not actually a Sephiroth Clone, but actually Cloud Strife who grew up in Nibelheim and got beat up a lot. I thought this plot point was pretty clear by now. Sephiroth is lying to him to dehumanize him and remove his sense of agency.

And Hojo having no regard in any life and adding to said lie due to wanting to prove the Jenova Reunion Theory while having thrown away the last of his own mental humanity didn't help Cloud's state of mind either.

Not to mention that Cloud continued to blame himself through his childhood when he tried and failed to save Tifa and somehow only ended up with a couple of scrapes while Tifa was comatose for an entire week, and he got blamed for something he actually tried to stop since going up the mountains was Tifa's idea and Cloud tagged along because he wanted to play with her and the other boys who ran back home.

 

[jazzflower92]

And Hojo having no regard in any life and adding to said lie due to wanting to prove the Jenova Reunion Theory while having thrown away the last of his own mental humanity didn't help Cloud's state of mind either.

Not to mention that Cloud continued to blame himself through his childhood when he tried and failed to save Tifa and somehow only ended up with a couple of scrapes while Tifa was comatose for an entire week, and he got blamed for something he actually tried to stop since going up the mountains was Tifa's idea and Cloud tagged along because he wanted to play with her and the other boys who ran back home.

Poor Cloud. I wish he had friends that could have backed him up and told everyone it's Tifa's idea, and he was actually there to protect her. But of course, they had to make him the scapegoat.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Poor Cloud. I wish he had friends that could have backed him up and told everyone it's Tifa's idea, and he was actually there to protect her. But of course, they had to make him the scapegoat.

Yeah, and while it's not fully confirmed, I think Cloud had a bit of a crush on Tifa when they were children. Considering how they were next door neighbors. Wonder how they would look as children in the Remake? I bet they'd both look very cute!

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, and while it's not fully confirmed, I think Cloud had a bit of a crush on Tifa when they were children. Considering how they were next door neighbors. Wonder how they would look as children in the Remake? I bet they'd both look very cute!

So tiny and huggable.

 

[Defeatable]

It might be that the black "ghosts" represent people whose souls couldn't return to the Planet because they died a violent or premature death, and Aerith is the one who would be sensitive. Maybe the workers or civilians who died in the bombing are already beginning to swirl around restlessly and that's why Aerith seems so bothered by them-- they're "fresh" tormented souls.

 

[jazzflower92]

It might be that the black "ghosts" represent people whose souls couldn't return to the Planet because they died a violent or premature death, and Aerith is the one who would be sensitive. Maybe the workers or civilians who died in the bombing are already beginning to swirl around restlessly and that's why Aerith seems so bothered by them-- they're "fresh" tormented souls.

More emphasis on how they screwed the pooch with that.