The new "Ghosts" from the Symphonic Trailer

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#52
So, that Reddit thread is completely blank, so I'm not sure what was put there originally, but here I go anyways!

There's something else interesting about that particular phrase's construction:

《運命の番人》
• Another translation of 運命 is "doom" which carries a significantly different weight to it than "fate" or "destiny" would.
• Additionally, the term for the guard/watchman originated in individuals who were literally counted numerically for combat (which is why in a lot of languages the verb used for the phrase, "to count numbers" and the phrase, "to count on someone" are the same thing – since they refer to relying on a numerical force of individuals in a bonded tribal context. In Japanese this word is written out literally as 番 (number) 人 (person). The word 番号 in Japanese is used for a numerical series like a phone number, and another common usage is also in sequential groupings like 一番, 二番, 三番 (First, Second, Third) so my guess here is that we've got some subtle wordplay happening with the name and role of these entities.

If we're looking at this in a FFVII-specific context, we do have a known set of Doomed Numbered People who are also serving as destined watchmen or fated guards for Sephiroth's Reunion. In the original game they're just called the《マントの男》which is literally just マント (Cloak) and 男 (Man), which is very literal and is just literally a man in a cloak. If they're making these Reunion entities more supernaturally connected to the Lifestream, but still keeping the connection to the Sephiroth Clones who are all identified by numerical tattoos.

But why though? Where the hell is this coming from?


I think it's actually connected to one of the unresolved mysteries from the Original Game that has been a deep obsession of mine for a really REALLY long time (like since back in the ACF days), and that's Sephiroth's Death Cinematic, and the cleansing of his Red Lifestream within Cloud's body:


I always took that to be the implication about why Cloud manifested Geostigma within Advent Children, and if this is a relationship that they're attempting to develop REALLY early on – there's a number of possibilities for how they're going to spin that integration. The main thing that I can think of here is that it's a connection to both a poisoning of the Lifestream (like we see in Advent Children), as well as specifically there being THREE of them (like we also see in Advent Children). We know that the 思念体 (Remnants) are Sephiroth's will literally being manifested within the Lifestream itself to create the forms of Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz in Advent Children, and I think that this is giving us a sense that these entities are already here in the form of wraith-like entities.

I'm suspecting that this non-physically manifested will is drawing the connection to the cult of the Cloaked & Tattooed individuals who are physical test subjects – since gathering together the children into a little brainwashed cult was very much Kadaj's jam in AC, it makes sense that these entities are the form that Sephiroth's will takes within the Lifestream to mess with Cloud, as his body is sitting in the North Crater.

If the Remake is really getting to redefine everything that's existed before, planting the seeds for the Remnants' metaphysical existence and motives is a really good call. Hell, it could even mean that we get to PLAY a version of Advent Children as a part of the main story that involves actually tracking down and beating Sephiroth for good and purging him from the Lifestream, as well as setting Cloud's mind at ease. On top of that, it also connects them to Aerith early on since she's related to ultimately overcoming them.


tl;dr – lots of speculation, but they're totally an early Lifestream-bound form of Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz that Sephiroth is using to gather the cult of cloaked Reunion test subjects.





X :neo:
 

Odysseus

Pro Adventurer
#53
Wow, that's a really cool idea! At the very least, the wraith's resemblance to the black hooded men is surely no coincidence. While I'm not so sure they'd bring in Kadaj and co. from advent children, having this all relate back to the reunion is much preferable to having some vague, nebulous other-worldy entities guiding events.
 
#54
"Story" summary transcribed by reddit user whatswiththesefrogs :

星から吸い上げた生命エネルギー《魔晄》。
《ミッドガル》――八基の魔晄炉を有する階層都市。
魔晄によって世界を掌握した巨大企業《神羅カンパニー》と
星を守るために立ち上がった反神羅組織《アバランチ》が激突する。
元ソルジャーのクラウドは、傭兵として
アバランチの《壱番魔晄炉爆破作戦》に参加していた。
魔晄炉爆破の余韻響く八番街。
炎に包まれる街で、死んだはずの宿敵の幻影が揺らめく。
消し去りたい過去の幻影に導かれ、彼女と出会う。
花売りの女性が差し出した黄色い花。
花言葉は――《再会》
その刹那、ふたりを取り囲む黒い影――《運命の番人》。
今、想いが再び星を巡る。
 
#55
So, that Reddit thread is completely blank, so I'm not sure what was put there originally, but here I go anyways!

There's something else interesting about that particular phrase's construction:

《運命の番人》
• Another translation of 運命 is "doom" which carries a significantly different weight to it than "fate" or "destiny" would.
• Additionally, the term for the guard/watchman originated in individuals who were literally counted numerically for combat (which is why in a lot of languages the verb used for the phrase, "to count numbers" and the phrase, "to count on someone" are the same thing – since they refer to relying on a numerical force of individuals in a bonded tribal context. In Japanese this word is written out literally as 番 (number) 人 (person). The word 番号 in Japanese is used for a numerical series like a phone number, and another common usage is also in sequential groupings like 一番, 二番, 三番 (First, Second, Third) so my guess here is that we've got some subtle wordplay happening with the name and role of these entities.

If we're looking at this in a FFVII-specific context, we do have a known set of Doomed Numbered People who are also serving as destined watchmen or fated guards for Sephiroth's Reunion. In the original game they're just called the《マントの男》which is literally just マント (Cloak) and 男 (Man), which is very literal and is just literally a man in a cloak. If they're making these Reunion entities more supernaturally connected to the Lifestream, but still keeping the connection to the Sephiroth Clones who are all identified by numerical tattoos.
This is fascinating, I love seeing language breakdowns like this. Thanks for taking the time to share that!
 

OdaDaimyO

Conqueror of Sugar
AKA
Mochi Lover
#57
So, that Reddit thread is completely blank, so I'm not sure what was put there originally, but here I go anyways!

There's something else interesting about that particular phrase's construction:

《運命の番人》
• Another translation of 運命 is "doom" which carries a significantly different weight to it than "fate" or "destiny" would.
• Additionally, the term for the guard/watchman originated in individuals who were literally counted numerically for combat (which is why in a lot of languages the verb used for the phrase, "to count numbers" and the phrase, "to count on someone" are the same thing – since they refer to relying on a numerical force of individuals in a bonded tribal context. In Japanese this word is written out literally as 番 (number) 人 (person). The word 番号 in Japanese is used for a numerical series like a phone number, and another common usage is also in sequential groupings like 一番, 二番, 三番 (First, Second, Third) so my guess here is that we've got some subtle wordplay happening with the name and role of these entities.

If we're looking at this in a FFVII-specific context, we do have a known set of Doomed Numbered People who are also serving as destined watchmen or fated guards for Sephiroth's Reunion. In the original game they're just called the《マントの男》which is literally just マント (Cloak) and 男 (Man), which is very literal and is just literally a man in a cloak. If they're making these Reunion entities more supernaturally connected to the Lifestream, but still keeping the connection to the Sephiroth Clones who are all identified by numerical tattoos.

But why though? Where the hell is this coming from?


I think it's actually connected to one of the unresolved mysteries from the Original Game that has been a deep obsession of mine for a really REALLY long time (like since back in the ACF days), and that's Sephiroth's Death Cinematic, and the cleansing of his Red Lifestream within Cloud's body:


I always took that to be the implication about why Cloud manifested Geostigma within Advent Children, and if this is a relationship that they're attempting to develop REALLY early on – there's a number of possibilities for how they're going to spin that integration. The main thing that I can think of here is that it's a connection to both a poisoning of the Lifestream (like we see in Advent Children), as well as specifically there being THREE of them (like we also see in Advent Children). We know that the 思念体 (Remnants) are Sephiroth's will literally being manifested within the Lifestream itself to create the forms of Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz in Advent Children, and I think that this is giving us a sense that these entities are already here in the form of wraith-like entities.

I'm suspecting that this non-physically manifested will is drawing the connection to the cult of the Cloaked & Tattooed individuals who are physical test subjects – since gathering together the children into a little brainwashed cult was very much Kadaj's jam in AC, it makes sense that these entities are the form that Sephiroth's will takes within the Lifestream to mess with Cloud, as his body is sitting in the North Crater.

If the Remake is really getting to redefine everything that's existed before, planting the seeds for the Remnants' metaphysical existence and motives is a really good call. Hell, it could even mean that we get to PLAY a version of Advent Children as a part of the main story that involves actually tracking down and beating Sephiroth for good and purging him from the Lifestream, as well as setting Cloud's mind at ease. On top of that, it also connects them to Aerith early on since she's related to ultimately overcoming them.


tl;dr – lots of speculation, but they're totally an early Lifestream-bound form of Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz that Sephiroth is using to gather the cult of cloaked Reunion test subjects.





X:neo:
I had this little conversation with @Trainer Red:
Another thought, since the swirly black stuff reminded me of the SHM in AC:

This was Sephiroth's attempt to make remnants of himself, and is trying to practice harassing Cloud, (or grab the holy materia from Aerith) and it isn't until AC he gets the hang of making remnants or something. :monster: Crack theory, but it's a nice way to tie in to AC.
My guess is that these shadows are actually deseased people, who had Jenova cells in them, logically they can be manipulated from Sephiroth out of the Lifestream (or from his Mako Crystal). It's a similiar concept from AC with the Black Lifestream. That's what these men with the black capes are for, to be killed off and sacrificed to make him stronger.
That's what I was thinking, but brain too tired from hype. :monster:
...in hindsight, his post was much more on point! And now, I LOOK LIKE A FOOL!!! THANK YOU @X-SOLDIER ! :monster:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#59
Yeah, X-Soldier, I too am pretty sure they're spiritual manifestations of Sephiroth's will. They're going to make sure Cloud stays on the straight and narrow, and fulfill his "destiny" of pursuing Cloud.

And why do they harass Aerith?

To bring Cloud and Aerith together of course! Sephiroth knows that she is connected to the Cetra, and knows that if Cloud is made to protect her, he'll be wholly invested in the plan to stop him from summoning Meteor.

So it's all a naked attempt to draw them together.

They're guarding Cloud's "destiny." I don't think they'll be involved with other Copies because they're not holding any real sense of self. Cloud is the only one needing a push, so to speak.
 
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AKA
TresDias
#60
There's something else interesting about that particular phrase's construction:

《運命の番人》
• Another translation of 運命 is "doom" which carries a significantly different weight to it than "fate" or "destiny" would.

...

If we're looking at this in a FFVII-specific context, we do have a known set of Doomed Numbered People who are also serving as destined watchmen or fated guards for Sephiroth's Reunion.
I certainly won't discount that this is a possibility, but it strikes me as uncharacteristic for FF.

You're not wrong that "doom" is a valid, albeit less common, implication of 運命 -- after all, "doom" is an archaic synonym for "fate" in English too. I think even the Japanese localization of "The Lord of the Rings" rendered the Cracks of Doom as 運命の亀裂.

That being said, in the context of the FF series, I can't think of an occasion where 運命 was anything but what we would characterize as "fate"/"destiny." The musical piece from FFVIII, "Liberi Fatali," translates from Latin as "Fated Children," which I've always seen rendered in Japanese as 運命の子供達. Similarly, the "Coin of Fate" track from FFVI is 運命のコイン, and "Defiers of Fate" from FFXIII is 運命への反逆. Also, the Fated Day on which Meteor destroyed Midgar was 運命の日 -- and along a slightly different track, the "Duel of the Fates" theme from the "Star Wars" franchise is rendered 運命の闘い.

I could bring in more examples (especially related to FFXV), but I think my point is sufficiently made.

Of course, your suggestion is worth keeping in mind. :monster:

X said:
• Additionally, the term for the guard/watchman originated in individuals who were literally counted numerically for combat (which is why in a lot of languages the verb used for the phrase, "to count numbers" and the phrase, "to count on someone" are the same thing – since they refer to relying on a numerical force of individuals in a bonded tribal context. In Japanese this word is written out literally as 番 (number) 人 (person). The word 番号 in Japanese is used for a numerical series like a phone number, and another common usage is also in sequential groupings like 一番, 二番, 三番 (First, Second, Third) so my guess here is that we've got some subtle wordplay happening with the name and role of these entities.
That may well end up so, but I would suggest that 番人 carries more a connotation of "one who keeps a watch" than any counting-of-persons element.

Of course, we can't ever underestimate Nomura trying to be clever when he's naming stuff. =P

X said:
I think it's actually connected to one of the unresolved mysteries from the Original Game that has been a deep obsession of mine for a really REALLY long time (like since back in the ACF days), and that's Sephiroth's Death Cinematic, and the cleansing of his Red Lifestream within Cloud's body:

Sephiroth's tendrils get neutralized in the air above Cloud, though? Or, getting technical, in the Lifestream below Cloud's body, as this showdown took place within the Lifestream after Cloud projected his mind in pursuit of Sephiroth.

X said:
The main thing that I can think of here is that it's a connection to both a poisoning of the Lifestream (like we see in Advent Children), as well as specifically there being THREE of them (like we also see in Advent Children). We know that the 思念体 (Remnants) are Sephiroth's will literally being manifested within the Lifestream itself to create the forms of Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz in Advent Children, and I think that this is giving us a sense that these entities are already here in the form of wraith-like entities.

I'm suspecting that this non-physically manifested will is drawing the connection to the cult of the Cloaked & Tattooed individuals who are physical test subjects – since gathering together the children into a little brainwashed cult was very much Kadaj's jam in AC, it makes sense that these entities are the form that Sephiroth's will takes within the Lifestream to mess with Cloud, as his body is sitting in the North Crater.
That's an intriguing guess! Certainly there's probably some signifcance to there being three Dementors.
 
#61
Trying my hand at a translation of the story:



By realistically rebuilding the world of FINAL FANTASY VII,
it will be reborn as a new story:


FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE

The life energy pumped out of the planet, mako.

Midgar, a hierarchical city boasting eight mako reactors.
The Shinra Company, a megacorporation that conquered the world using mako,
is clashing with Avalanche, an anti-Shinra organization stepping up to defend the planet.

Cloud, an ex-SOLDIER turned mercenary,
has just joined Avalanche on their first bombing mission.

As the exploding mako reactor echoes through Sector 8,
in a city set ablaze, the apparition of an adversary he believed slain shimmers before him.

Led by the phantom of the past he wishes he could forget, he meets her.

The girl, a florist, offers him a yellow blossom.
In the language of flowers, that color means—Reunion.
Suddenly, the pair is surrounded by black shadows—Guardians of Fate.

Now, his thoughts are free to roam the planet once more.​
 
AKA
The Engineer
#65
It seems to me that we are getting the sense that Sephiorth is obsessed with manipulating Cloud for some specific purpose much, much earlier this time around.

In the OG, we don't know what the specifics are of Cloud's mental issues until... Junon I think? At least, I'm pretty sure that's when we see Sephiroth (via Jenova) actively start interacting with Cloud. Up until then, Cloud's mental issues seem a lot more self-contained to just be something he is going through as opposed to something Sephiroth is specifically causing on purpose. And even with that, it's not until Temple of the Anchients that we know what Sephiroth is up too.

Given that all of Part 1 of FFVIIR is happening in Midgar though, I can see them pushing up the introduction of Sephiroth still being somehow active in how he messes with Cloud. Sure, it makes it a little less mysterious why Sephiroth is the one to kill President Shinra, but having to wait until Part 2 to finally bring up that Sephiroth is messing with Cloud's head on purpose seems really long to wait.
 
AKA
TresDias
#66
I have to say I'm not fond of that change. The original game did an excellent job of making the player question their own POV character's sanity and reliability. It's looking like the remake is going to telegraph early on that Cloud is just being dicked around by the biggest dick around. :monster:
 
AKA
The Engineer
#67
I mean... anyone going into the game having seen anything FFVII related will know that Sephiroth is the one playing with Cloud's head. It's pretty much gamer cultural osmosis by now. Aerith dies. Sephiroth likes messing with Cloud.

They might as well just accept that everyone already knows that and make the story tension be somewhere else. There's nothing worse then watching a story force tension into something the player already knows is going to happen. It just falls flat most of the time.
 
AKA
TresDias
#70
I mean... anyone going into the game having seen anything FFVII related will know that Sephiroth is the one playing with Cloud's head. It's pretty much gamer cultural osmosis by now. Aerith dies. Sephiroth likes messing with Cloud.

They might as well just accept that everyone already knows that and make the story tension be somewhere else. There's nothing worse then watching a story force tension into something the player already knows is going to happen. It just falls flat most of the time.
I don't think there's much likelihood of them playing down the tension of the moment prior to Aerith dying -- or the moment when we try (and fail) to stop the plate drop, losing Biggs, Jessie and Wedge. Or, for that matter, any of the moments any character whom we know survives is in mandated-by-the-plot danger.

Some moments will even be played up.

It would strike me as egregious to remove that moment of misdirection that "Whew, Cloud almost killed her, but Aerith is going to be oka -- wtf!!!"; and it strikes me as egregious to neuter any of the mystery of what's going on with Cloud.
 

OdaDaimyO

Conqueror of Sugar
AKA
Mochi Lover
#71
Looks like they want to portray Cloud, in a state of confusion/mindfuckery, that is much more intensified, than OG version. I already mentioned this in another thread before, but maybe they buildt him up to be the real culprit in the Trail of Blood scenario, where he sleepwalks through the floor, killing everything on his way to Jenova, freeing her, recunstruct the Masamune with her help and use it to kill off the president. After that, he goes back to his cell. THAT would be devastating...

Would that come true, the Machinabridged version would have foreshadowed this event. "Good job Cloud!"
 
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Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#73
It seems to me that we are getting the sense that Sephiorth is obsessed with manipulating Cloud for some specific purpose much, much earlier this time around.

In the OG, we don't know what the specifics are of Cloud's mental issues until... Junon I think? At least, I'm pretty sure that's when we see Sephiroth (via Jenova) actively start interacting with Cloud. Up until then, Cloud's mental issues seem a lot more self-contained to just be something he is going through as opposed to something Sephiroth is specifically causing on purpose. And even with that, it's not until Temple of the Anchients that we know what Sephiroth is up too.

Given that all of Part 1 of FFVIIR is happening in Midgar though, I can see them pushing up the introduction of Sephiroth still being somehow active in how he messes with Cloud. Sure, it makes it a little less mysterious why Sephiroth is the one to kill President Shinra, but having to wait until Part 2 to finally bring up that Sephiroth is messing with Cloud's head on purpose seems really long to wait.
As Tres mentions, Cloud and Tifa's cellroom was open with blood leading up to it on the day Jenova escaped and Sephiroth kills the President. Sephiroth had a plan with Cloud in mind from at least his arrival at Shinra HQ onwards. A change to him being aware of Cloud and his usefulness from his arrival in Midgar onwards is not a big change in terms of Sephiroth's characterisation in my book. I can deal.
 
#74
Just a few points and thoughts before I go to sleep:
  • There are 4 hooded Shadows (or Guardians of Fate, if you will). In the trailer AND in the Sephiroth key art.
  • 4 has the same reading as death in Japanese (shi) and as such is a number of bad luck.
  • The alternate reading of the Guardians of Fate (according to X-SOLDIER, thanks man!) would translate to "the doomed, numbered ones", aptly describing the hooded figures in the original. However, those were normal people which have been experimented on my Hojo. Nothing to do with Lifestream ghosts or Sephiroth tendrils.
  • The idea of those shadows being what guide Cloud to his fate orchestrated by Sephiroth is an appealing one to me and would make sense. Aerith would be aware of those because they might consist of tainted Lifestream force controlled by Sephiroth and her Cetra powers in combination with Cloud's Jenova Cells and Mako treatment, make those shadows also visible to Cloud upon contact.
  • 4 shadows kinda remind me of the 4 Jenova encounters: Birth, Life, Death and Synthesis. I could imagine Cloud losing one of those 4 each time they defeat Jenova. Either he's free after defeating Jenova Synthesis or we'll encounter a new Jenova variant (Jenova Conception or something like that), making Cloud free from those Guardians of destiny after defeating Jenova Death. Cloud fulfills his destiny forged by Sephiroth shortly after anyway (delivering him the Black Materia). Mission accomplished!
  • I don't think those hooded shadows have anything to do with the Remnants from Advent Children. At least not those 3 specific ones. The concept could still be a similar one, however.
  • According to the Japanese text translated by Suzaku (Thanks btw!), that Sephiroth illusion in the alleyway does happen between the first bombing mission and the first encounter with Aerith. Maybe that's also the moment where Sephiroth becomes aware of Cloud's location and as such, those 4 shadows, Sephiroth's tendrils, latch on to Cloud to control him. This might also be why Aerith asks Cloud if he's OK (he's still wobbly from the illusion and the new "companions").
That, or I'm just too tired and speak only nonsense :monster:
 

OdaDaimyO

Conqueror of Sugar
AKA
Mochi Lover
#75
Why I have this ominous feeling that we'll get 4 parts of this epic...

I believe the storytelling-structure in four acts is something the Japanese are very fond of, see Noh theatre.
 
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