The Official "How many parts?" Thread

[OWA-2]

Lets also remember that Part 1 only took 5 years, because of all that problem with CyberConnect. And Part 2 is probably taking longer than they expected too, because of Covid.

So I agree that after Part 2, they will take less time to make these games.

 

[Ite]

Consider also that Square absolutely hates making the same game twice — this isn’t a reference to 7R as much as it is X-2. The whole corporate philosophy behind X-2 was to milk money out of reused assets but the designers had zero chill and instead made a completely new battle system, character progression, and exploration mechanic. They’re creatives. Same with the KH series. If 7R2 has an identical battle and progression system to 7R1 I will be very surprised.

 

[Eerie]

Is X-2 a sequel of part of the same game? Because I feel that they want to touch the battle system, yes, but only to tweak it, to allow for combos and stuff like that. I don't get the feeling that they especially want to redo the whole system from their interviews, maybe to give some sort of linearity to the game. After all, it is the same story, not a sequel.

 

[Ite]

Is X-2 a sequel of part of the same game? Because I feel that they want to touch the battle system, yes, but only to tweak it, to allow for combos and stuff like that. I don't get the feeling that they especially want to redo the whole system from their interviews, maybe to give some sort of linearity to the game. After all, it is the same story, not a sequel.

Definitely a sequel. Final Fantasy X was the last game in the series to be created with the original game’s philosophy in mind (the “this is it” philosophy). Nojima didn’t even want to make X-2 because he liked X’s ending.

Whether FF7R2 is a sequel or an expansion pack, time will tell. My money’s on fully new game, a la KH2.

 

[cold_spirit]

he next game must be a new challenge for them as they have the world map to think about, but once it's done, they'll have most of the map done and I expect the following games to get released swifter than that, because they will have nearly all the assets they need. So I'm kind of expecting 2023 for a Nibelheim to Nibelheim, then 2025 (Northern Crater) then 2027 (end). Something like that.

I've said this before, but God of War Ragnarok is in a similar boat as Remake part 2 in that one might expect a quicker development cycle due to the reuse of assets (example assets being character/enemy models, animations, battle mechanics, menus, and "back-end" techniques like data streaming. The list is endless). However, Ragnarok will still take around 5 years to develop. I wouldn't expect the development time for any Remake part to be shorter than 4-5 years.

 

[looneymoon]

I saw some weirdo on twitter bitching about how the animation of Kratos getting in the boat is reused in Ragnorok from 2018. It's just the weirdest thing to complain about? It's a perfectly serviceable animation, let them use what works and focus on making the new stuff feel fresh.

Anyways I hope S-E doesn't convoluted the battle system too much. I felt the DLC was already toeing the line of being too busy.

 

[Eerie]

I've said this before, but God of War Ragnarok is in a similar boat as Remake part 2 in that one might expect a quicker development cycle due to the reuse of assets (example assets being character/enemy models, animations, battle mechanics, menus, and "back-end" techniques like data streaming. The list is endless). However, Ragnarok will still take around 5 years to develop. I wouldn't expect the development time for any Remake part to be shorter than 4-5 years.

I think the parts after Remake 2 will be churned out more easily, and they expect something shorter for the release. Maybe not 2 years, but 3, 4 at the very max. The way they talked about it, they're very concerned about the time frame release, they don't want players to forget about FFVII Remake. That's why they had the choice between a lot of games that were tinier than part 1 to be released each year/2 years max, or full fledged games - and I feel they have chosen the second path.

Someone made an interesting remark the other day on Twitter, they guessed that the mocap actors had finished working on Remake for now, because they stopped tweeting about it (Tifa's mocap is a big fan) and went on their next project. This, if true, clearly gives a 2023 window for a release for part 2, which would mean it had taken 4 years to develop (they began in 2019), with a whole new way of dealing with the map, which probably has taken time to develop. They also have had Red XIII and probablyyyyyyy (hoping there) Vincent settled down as characters and playablity. In the following games, the map will be done, and only one character - Cid - will be left. So I think the window time will be much less to develop, even if they want to tweak their battle system again - we are talking about 3 years max. There's also the age of the developpers to consider, since they are getting old and definitely want to finish this project while they're still working for SE.

 

[Roundhouse]

I feel like they are in trouble, to be honest. There is a HUGE amount of story left to go through, and doing all of that, plus the extra twists and material they are inserting into remake, in multiple big budget games/parts...without some sort of streamlining/cutting, I don't see how the remake will be finished before 2030. I do agree that P2 will probably be 2023, although that's my optimistic prediction/the best case scenario...and even then, they have yet to actually tell us how much story P2 will even cover. I will never stop laughing if P2 basically ends after Junon.

 

[frosty]

In the following games, the map will be done, and only one character - Cid - will be left

I can't remember where I watched it, but someone (Maximillian dood?) pointed out that Sonon's move set was similar to that of Cid, esp comparing the animations i.e. that move where Sonon throws Yuffie off from the spear is one that Cid does in Advent Children. They could have already started working on Cid.

It would make sense as well, because why would they spend time and effort making unique movesets for Sonon, who only appears in a DLC?

. I do agree that P2 will probably be 2023, although that's my optimistic prediction/the best case scenario

Yep. 2023, barring no unforeseen events. I believe this to be because of their CFO's statement in their investor's press con closing the financial period ending Mar 2021

Q: You are guiding for net sales to be roughly flat YoY in FY2022/3, but you expect your profits to decline. If we assume that you do not anticipate any major YoY change in your stable recurring earnings and that the Amusement segment should pick up versus the previous fiscal year, does it mean that you expect only a limited earnings contribution from your new HD game titles given that the lineup will consist largely of new IP?

A: Our guidance assumes a certain amount of risk, based on the fact that our FY2022/3 HD game lineup consists largely of new IP.

FY2022/3 lineup will consist large of new IP, and we are working on developing major titles with target release dates in FY2023/3 and thereafter.

Basically, they estimated the period of April 2021-March 2022 to have largely flat earnings of 300++ billion yen, and driven by new IP and subscription revenue. (FF14/Mobile devices) That new IP being Outriders, launched in April. They indicated their medium term earnings over the next 3 -5 years after 2021 is in the range of 400++ billion yen per financial year with "existing IP" that are "major titles"

These major titles and existing IP usually refers to their FF titles as well as their MMO - to anyone's guess, that would be FF16/FF7R that they hope to bring in that extra 100++ billion yen - barring that there no other flops ala Marvel Avengers.

I feel like they are in trouble, to be honest. There is a HUGE amount of story left to go through, and doing all of that, plus the extra twists and material they are inserting into remake, in multiple big budget games/parts...without some sort of streamlining/cutting, I don't see how the remake will be finished before 2030

I worry about this too. The longer they drag it out, the less attractive their financial projections look like over the next 3 to 5 years. They have to secure assets (tech, manpower, marketing funds) well in advance to push their titles, and every year, if unutilized or delayed, these assets have to be written down and results in losses.

Add to that, if they have Ever Crisis / The First Soldier - the steam / synergy / hype from all the interrelated titles might fall flat if FF7R's subsequent parts are consistently delayed. I don't know how long they expect for longevity for their mobile games, but most seem to have a shelf life of only 1 (G-bike) to 5 (FFBE) years

 

[Makoeyes987]

G-Bike isn't "recent." That was back during 2014. If you look at their most recent mobile games, the ones still going and have recently ended, like Union X and Mobius, they've lasted 5 years or more. That's incredible for a mobile title series. G-Bike was the aberration. Their most popular mobile games have been alive for at least 4 years, going on five. They know what they're doing.

And I really don't understand this fear over the Remake series. We did this before. This is literally the same "fear" that was held about with Part 1, and they certainly didn't cut or "streamline/cut corners" with anything.

And we ended up getting a surprise significantly sized expansion DLC a year later. Between their statements and development precedent, no, I don't worry about them cutting anything or being unable to deliver. This is the tent pole product of S-E, how are they going to neglect it, quit it or cut it off? The assets are being made and the staff are already hired, I seriously doubt they are flying by the seat of their pants with this project. They're working far and ahead just like they've been doing. As for Ever Crisis, Square more than likely wrapped up their longest running mobile games specifically to devote resources and attention straight to this new game. It's meant to capitalize on the FFVII centering of the current era. It's certainly planned out that way.

 

[Fiz]

G-Bike isn't "recent." That was back during 2014. If you look at their most recent mobile games, the ones still going and have recently ended, like Union X and Mobius, they've lasted 5 years or more. That's incredible for a mobile title series. G-Bike was the aberration. Their most popular mobile games have been alive for at least 4 years, going on five. They know what they're doing.

And I really don't understand this fear over the Remake series. We did this before. This is literally the same "fear" that was held about with Part 1, and they certainly didn't cut or "streamline/cut corners" with anything.

And we ended up getting a surprise significantly sized expansion DLC a year later. Between their statements and development precedent, no, I don't worry about them cutting anything or being unable to deliver. This is the tent pole product of S-E, how are they going to neglect it, quit it or cut it off? The assets are being made and the staff are already hired, I seriously doubt they are flying by the seat of their pants with this project. They're working far and ahead just like they've been doing. As for Ever Crisis, Square more than likely wrapped up their longest running mobile games specifically to devote resources and attention straight to this new game. It's meant to capitalize on the FFVII centering of the current era. It's certainly planned out that way.

I agree. I don’t like the wait but I don’t think anyone needs to worry about security with 3-5 year development cycles for games. That’s pretty standard for many large IP titles.

It would be nice if SE could sort their efficiency out because they are one of the slower developers.

 

[frosty]

And I really don't understand this fear over the Remake series. We did this before. This is literally the same "fear" that was held about with Part 1, and they certainly didn't cut or "streamline/cut corners" with anything.

And we ended up getting a surprise significantly sized expansion DLC a year later. Between their statements and development precedent, no, I don't worry about them cutting anything or being unable to deliver. This is the tent pole product of S-E, how are they going to neglect it, quit it or cut it off? As for Ever Crisis, Square more than likely wrapped up their longest running mobile games specifically to devote resources and attention straight to this new game. It's meant to capitalize on the FFVII centering of the current era. It's certainly planned out that way.

Oh, of course they'd never abandon their tentpoles, that's for sure. They won't NOT launch what they promised.

But, in terms of cutting things I could see it could be more of cutting content originally planned because they have to rush for a deadline. Similar perhaps to that Tifa section where she was supposed to go run around and get things for her dress. The scenario was already planned in the pre-production stages, but it got omitted in the end. It probably wouldn't make it a less beautiful game or mechanics not as fun, but the pacing might then feel "off" - and some things (whispers? Stamp?) hastily and unsatisfactorily explained to just get the product out and to make money.

Additionally, my musing is was if they drag out the production timeline. If FF7R Part 2 is originally supposed to take 3 years, then it becomes 3 and a half, for instance. When they came up with the concept of having Remake, Ever Crisis, First Soldier, they must have had certain milestones between those works that lined up, so that there is synergy (i.e. developers from Applibot for EC can access music assets derived from Remake by a certain milestone, or contracts are drawn up for the voice actors to record script that cover both the games when they start in say, 2022, or at least their contracts should have been written for the rights of use of their voices for both FF7R and well as EC.)

Those little delays can result in timelines not matching up. It may cause sometimes a lack of cohesiveness and polish - WOTV's NA version has Japanese voices for only the FF7R crew, which is jarring because everyone else speaks in English. Was it cos they couldn't get talents to record unique lines because the mobile dev team had to recontract them? Was it cos FF7R team didn't give them English voice files from Remake to replace the Japanese? Was it cos it was too much work to program the voices over when they were rushing for an August 2021 launch?

That's more of the worry I have - not that they won't launch, but it's less polished or cohesive

 

[cold_spirit]

I can't remember where I watched it, but someone (Maximillian dood?) pointed out that Sonon's move set was similar to that of Cid, esp comparing the animations i.e. that move where Sonon throws Yuffie off from the spear is one that Cid does in Advent Children. They could have already started working on Cid.

I've heard this said a few times and just don't agree. Sonon is a straight-faced Wutaian trained teenage ninja. Cid is a pilot with no known combat experience and has a goofy looking run. The difference between these two characters will no doubt be accounted for by the motion capture director and actors. I can see Cid as a "dragoon-like" character, but his animations and skills will be vastly different from Sonon's. FFVIIR thrives on going all in on small details like this.

 

[Odysseus]

I'll say, going down the hypothetical "what if _____" rabbit hole is a great way to stress yourself out.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I'll say, going down the hypothetical "what if _____" rabbit hole is a great way to stress yourself out.

But Ody, what else will YouTubers make clickbait videos with

 

[Roundhouse]

To be clear, I'm not worried about them cutting stuff....if anything it's the opposite, which in turn leads to the prospect of remake going on until the year 3000.

 

[frosty]

To be clear, I'm not worried about them cutting stuff....if anything it's the opposite, which in turn leads to the prospect of remake going on until the year 3000.

I'm sure that they have internally the number of parts already worked out way back in like, 2015 or something.

Every part that they add beyond the initial scope is going to be more challenging because they need funds, marketing, developer manpower, tech assets, talent and motion actor contracts, legal, compliance, merchandising, publishing etc. etc. onboard as well. That's going back to like, 10 different parties to say: Hey think you can work for another 2 to 3 more years cos we can't fit all this plot in? It's a huge risk, more so cos middle parts of works tend not to do as well financially as the first and last titles, esp for projects that have a definitive "end".

What happens is for a multi-year project like this, the creative guys (the Nomuras and Nojimas) are tasked with a grand vision of the plot, the scope and the big idea.

In pitching the concepts (Examples: "My spooky plot ghosts are going to give FF7R 20+ unique endings. Like Nier") to the money men of the company (Finance, Investments, Sales etc.) they reach an understanding to say that it will be, say, 3 parts. The money men go, alright, we'll green light this...and we'll give you X millions to make the plot ghosts happen but it has make us X by 2023. Then XX by 2025. And XXX by 2027. They then lock in these forecasts internally, and reveal some to the corporate and individual stakeholders who have hundreds of millions invested in them.

The Kitases (or the Executive Producers) are then responsible to make sure the Nomuras and Nojimas keep on track and deliver their grand creative vision - within that budget and within that strict time frame. A lot of times, the creative guys want more. More cut scenes! More story! More fancy! More feels! But they can't - because they're constrained by the budget and they're already hurtling towards the impending crunch to deliver the product and sales they promised the company, and sales and marketing are signing off distribution or partnership contracts already.

Then you get a compilation where not all the entirety of the creative vision were realized. That's more what I'm afraid of.

Delays from this set timeline are usually more of not so efficient management of resources, or unforeseen circumstances (like Covid). This mismanagement...can be common

I'll say, going down the hypothetical "what if _____" rabbit hole is a great way to stress yourself out.

Sorry if I stress anyone out, part of my day job involves this kind of crystal balling. This guesswork and speculation is actually really fun for me, much more so than say, the LTD

 

[Thenir]

I'm sure that they have internally the number of parts already worked out way back in like, 2015 or something.

I agree with this.

I think the difference between Part 1 and Part 2, 3 ... , will be mostly the pace. Ending Part 1 outside Midgar is very logical but they had to add a lot of fillers to turn it in a whole game. I feel like the next parts will be a lot more condensed, story wise there's a lot yet to come even just as regards the OG. Then probably BC and CC will be expanded like DoC, I expect Veld and the Turks to show up at some point, Banora and Genesis, and Deepground itself will be brought up again sooner or later, as of course all the changes about Zack and the Whispers. I can't think of anything that could be discarded, maybe just the first visit at Fort Condor.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Every part that they add beyond the initial scope is going to be more challenging because they need to get more marketing, developer manpower, tech assets, talent and motion actor contracts, legal, compliance, merchandising, publishing etc. well. That's going back to like, 10 different parties to say: Hey think you can work for another 2 to 3 more years cos we can't fit all this plot in? It's a huge risk, because middle parts of works tend not to do as well financially as the first and last titles, esp for projects that have a definitive "end". The more parts they add, the more risk they give themselves.

What makes you think they're going to need to keep hiring newer and newer people for each Remake entry when they're pulling from the staff hired by Square Enix?

Does FFXIV have to keep hiring on a brand new team of developers over and over, everytime a new expansion is created? What new legal hurdles does S-E encounter working with their own IP? Once the core party members and characters of FFVII are added, how many more motion capture actors need to be hired? Does Square Enix not have their own marketing department that exists to promote their IPs?

Those "10 parties" are all parties working for S-E getting a check from the same employer. If you think this is hard and some sort of challenge unique to the Remake, wait til I tell you about this crossover series they all worked on with a company called Disney.

A lot of times, the creative guys want more. More cut scenes! More story! More fancy! More feels! But they can't - because they're constrained by the budget and they're already hurtling towards the impending crunch to deliver the sales they promised the company, because Sales and marketing have signed distribution contracts already.

This is literally what they all have done for a living for over 20 years, with every game they've developed. You really think this is a new concern for Kitase, Nojima, Nomura and Toriyama to consider? This is serial game development, the one thing they have the most experience with.

Then you get a compilation that's, well...Advent Children-ed. Where all the nuance goes into the books, and the bare bone plot...but with FANCY EXPLOSIONS....go into the movie. That's more what I'm afraid of.

Advent Children wasn't the entry that lost it's nuance and depth thanks to it's adaption. That's the worst example you could have used for the Compilation. The OTWTS novellas flesh out the post-FFVII emotional crises of everyone that led up to AC. AC wasn't a movie meant to contain the entire post-Meteorfall societal collapse and reconstruction story alongside the emotional turmoil every character connected to the plot experienced. It was a movie centered on Cloud, Tifa, their family and them overcoming the demons of their past. It's Cloud and Tifa's story, and it functions on that premise.

 

[Eerie]

I'm sure that they have internally the number of parts already worked out way back in like, 2015 or something.

Actually no, they mentioned in the first Ultimania that they were still considering how many parts they wanted to do for Remake, and in what fashion.

 

[frosty]

Sorry in advance that this is going to be long.

Those "10 parties" are all parties working for S-E getting a check from the same employer. If you think this is hard and some sort of challenge unique to the Remake, wait til I tell you about this crossover series they all worked on with a company called Disney

But...adding unplanned parts IS hard. And I worked for Disney (albeit a local office, not the team in Burbank) I could not even hire a Mickey or stormtrooper mascot for literally DISNEY in my own country because their strictness on rights usage. I'm well aware of what a beast the company is

Makoeyes987]What makes you think they're going to need to keep hiring newer and newer people for each Remake entry when they're pulling from the staff hired by Square Enix?

No, where did you get the idea that I suggest they keep hiring new people? That doesn't make sense. With a company as large as SE, their own departments probably planned their (human, monetary) resources in a way that is estimated based on the expected tentpole roll out. Anything that moves or prolongs their launches across multiple verticals requires hella re-coordination. Hence my comment was on tacking on additional parts (that was not initially planned) for a company of SE's size can be risky.

Does Square Enix not have their own marketing department that exists to promote their IPs?

Since you brought up marketing, the team I was in had covered marketing, PR and Comms. We generally have fixed budgets year-on-year, expressed as a % of expected local revenue from the tentpoles. Our movie pipeline coming from global office gave us visibility of all the biggest titles 3-4 years in advance with the launches indicated by each quarter / season. I breakdown my yearly budget and assign a value to each tentpole. If say a new title suddenly popped up, I'd have to:

a) Pitch to Finance for more money to support multiple launches (Not hire a whole new team!)
b) Reach out to legal to check on my distribution contracts because I might have sold the rights to my local on-air or theater distributor for only X titles a year and now I have to add one and make them pay for it
c) Re-mobilize my merchandising, publishing or sponsorship team who sometimes work up to 1.5 years in advance
d) A million other little things, like the fact that I outsourced event handling, advertisement shoots, creative, and social media management to agencies who now need to re-plan and they all have individual project contracts

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was a company so large (like SE) absolutely has an internal pipeline like the above and:
1) It is ALOT of work to make more parts than initially projected, so companies avoid mis-planning their key titles
2) Fans don't need to be afraid that they will drag on FFVII7R's production to infinite number of parts and meander indefinitely and wrap in year 2050 because they do have an internal end date in mind - even if it is not communicated to the public.

how many more motion capture actors need to be hired?

No new motion actors have to be HIRED. Note that I said motion actor CONTRACTS. These require contract extensions...again, in the context of added parts.

What new legal hurdles does S-E encounter working with their own IP?

Here is a recent hurdle that happened with Disney's own IP. Scar Jo slapped the global team with a law suit because they launched Black Widow on Disney+ the same day as the theatrical release. It would reduce her earnings originally negotiated on block buster ticketing. The contract was negotiated back in 2017 before D+ was launched.

Issues like these happen all the time - a delay or added part almost always means there was a contract somewhere with start and end times that are now no longer valid. Hence, poses risk to the company.

This is literally what they all have done for a living for over 20 years, with every game they've developed. You really think this is a new concern for Kitase, Nojima, Nomura and Toriyama to consider? This is serial game development, the one thing they have the most experience with.

I have no doubts that these men are the best and most experienced in the business and I clearly have no such experience. However, I do know that for multi-year creative projects, pitched concepts that managed to secure the funding, and what gets approved for onward production can be wildly scoped down. Even more so when the final cut goes out.

If you do feel that they might be able to pull off satisfactorily, a 3/4/5?/7? part compilation that covers Zack's presence, the Whisper's origins, potentially multiple universes, have cohesive linkages to the whole compilation from AC-EC and include all the fan-favourite moments of the OG...in a reasonable span of games...that's great.

If I have a concern that they might not be as cohesive and it's too much content for them to chew in 3/4 parts - it's also very much my own personal opinion. The benchmarks for what is done "satisfactorily" to you and I could be wildly different.

 

[OWA-2]

Guys, just remember this is the company that didn't tell Nomura he was going to direct Part 1, until the trailer was shown. He found out through the friggin trailer!

 

[Tetsujin]

Guys, just remember this is the company that didn't tell Nomura he was going to direct Part 1, until the trailer was shown. He found out through the friggin trailer!

It was an internal presentation.

 

[KindOfBlue]

This guesswork and speculation is actually really fun for me, much more so than say, the LTD

Stepping on Legos barefooted is more fun than the LTD

 

[Khaoticnoize187]

As much as there is stars in the galaxy.