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The theme of Final Fantasy VII

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
What aspects of the plots of Final Fantasy I, III, and V leads you to believe that love is "a MAJOR theme" in those games?
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Love was a major theme in VIII, yeah but not so much to VII. Anarchism plays a higher role to VII than love does.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Love is obviously a major theme of all FF's. Hence there happens to be a love triangle in 7 (tifa, aerith and cloud) and in ff8 (Seifer, Squall and Rinoa), the latter was mostly abandoned in development.

Love is a major theme of FF1, 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, Tactics, Tactics Advance, Tactics Advance 2, Chocobo Racing, Chocobo Fables, Chocbo's Dungeon?

But look how ff8 ends and tell me it isn't about love.

8 is a blatant love story.

Look at FF7's love triangle and tell me it. Hell, it even has an inbuilt "love points" counter to decide who goes on a date with cloud.

It's all part of the great disc 1 fake out.

Other major love themes in 7 involve:

Tifas loss of her mother, cloud and his mother flashback. 7 deals a lot with LOSS of a loved one.

Only a complete fool can't see how love is a MAJOR theme.

Or one would note that the common theme there is LOSS.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Love was a major theme in VIII, yeah but not so much to VII. Anarchism plays a higher role to VII than love does.
Anarchism is a pretty big theme in FFVI too, come to think of it. I'm not sure if they explicitly intended to include anarchist ideals in the games but there really isn't a positive portrayal of a hierarchical organisation in any FF game I can think of.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
I'm not sure if they explicitly intended to include anarchist ideals in the games but there really isn't a positive portrayal of a hierarchical organisation in any FF game I can think of.

Yeah there is, man!
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
None of them are governments or religions is my point. I guess the Returners could be considered sort of hierarchical since Banon is portrayed as their leader, but they're not a government.

Though there probably are minor city-states whose governments get more or less positive portrayals, but my point is no hierarchical government/religion that actually has a major impact on the plot is portrayed in a positive manner.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
None of those have any major impact on the story, that's my point. Though I forgot about Figaro in FFVI when I wrote the original post.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Those are all lesser city-states or kingdoms though. Not the dominant government/empires of the stories.

The actual kingdoms or governments in power are usually evil. The only one I can think of that wasn't was the Kingdom of Cornelia in FF1. :monster:
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Garden wasn't really a government though.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well they weren't the kingdoms in power though. They were all taken over or lacking in their previous power.

The powers that were in control, were the ones that were evil.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Yeah but they're still sovereign entities, remember, I was addressing this comment

but there really isn't a positive portrayal of a hierarchical organisation in any FF game I can think of.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
He did say "that he can think of".
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Not to mention that I haven't played FFVIII or FFXII, so those examples aren't even relevant to my point, I'm talking about FFIV-VII and FFIX-X :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Every kingdom in FFIV save Baron is portrayed positively, and even Baron is positive again once it is freed.

In FFIII, the grand country of Saronia was quite benign, though it had to deal with a civil war brought about by the mind controlled king.

Similarly, in V, all countries save Exdeath's are given a positive spin.

In IX, Lindblum the largest and most technologically advance nation was the most unquestionably benign one, but it was led by a Cid.
In FF:CC CoF, the King and the kingdom are good, but the religious leader was the villian.

It sort of depends on how you define the governments, though.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
In FFIX though, Alxendria was the dominating force because of their war mongering and the power of the Black Mages and Eidolons.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
In FFIX though, Alxendria was the dominating force because of their war mongering and the power of the Black Mages and Eidolons.

That was a quite recent development, though, and primarily due to the Eidolons, which were their major tipping point against the other countries. And that all faded away once Brahn bit the bucket.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
That was a quite recent development, though, and primarily due to the Eidolons, which were their major tipping point against the other countries. And that all faded away once Brahn bit the bucket.

^that. Kuja made Brahne a looney, and even besides that, I can't recall any other 'evil' major governments in that game, or even Alexandria becoming a major world-dominating powar.

But the reason that a lot of the larger kingdoms / empires in the FF are also the dominant ones, is because the peaceful ones are wimps that get pwned. How many benign governments in the real world are large and powerful?
 

MakoLies876

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
MakoLies876
Wow....

FFVII sure was a religious experience for you, wasn't it?

And is this a thinly veiled LT discussion, or is that just me? :monster:

First off, Aerith didn't sacrifice herself. She did not intend to die. She was murdered by surprise by Sephiroth. So saying she sacrificed herself for the planet is erroneous.

Cait Sith's "sacrifice" was a parody of death in video games. How it's built up and done all dramatically and sentimentally so that when it does happen its not nearly as gut renching because you saw it coming and thus, are able to accept it. It's totally different than how Aerith's death happened suddenly, without warning, and without her intention. Furthermore, Cait Sith came back. That's hardly a sacrifice at all. He's just a stuffed animal controlled by Reeve. That was explained in EDGE magazine and then in the interview with the creators in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

Aerith was not the only one who knew Cloud wasn't really himself. Tifa knew it too.

And no, the ending didn't represent the end of humanity because we see, 500 years later, that humanity still exists. We hear the laughter of children in the background.

And while FFVII has a great, enriching story full of memorable characters and themes about life, love and never giving up, its preposterous to say that it's on the level of actual literature. It can stand up to some of the contemporary stories and novels out today but equating it to works literary merit is naive and to some who appreciate classic literature, an insult. They're not in the same league and the creators never tried to put it there.

I hate to break it to you, but FFVII is a game. A fantasy RPG. It's a good one, but please. Don't build it up as if it's some type of life changing experience. This is the exact shit that gets FFVII's mocked by the rest of FF fandom and fandom at large. Keep your perspective. FFVII is hardly the pennacle of storytelling excellence. That's naive.
Howdy, I'm writing my master's thesis on FF7-O vs. FF7-R and how the remake complicated its ecocritical messaging to keep pace with developments within environmental discourse. I've been combing forums for how the community engages with both, and so I stumbled upon this entry.

I didn't intend to make an account, but after reading Mako's reply, I felt the need to deal with the elitism they wreak. I'll unpack this piece by piece; 14 years later, I think it's worthwhile.

> "FFVII was a religious experience for you, wasn't it?"
You're abusing the word experience by attaching the qualifier of religious, you do realize that, don't you? Someone enjoyed the game, and they felt like it inspired them to make some sort of point (whether or not we agree with it), but you shame them. You yourself are on an internet forum, posting about a game that was released 12 years prior to its release. You're a sycophant as well, but for much worse reasons.

>"First off, Aerith didn't sacrifice herself. She did not intend to die. She was murdered by surprise by Sephiroth. So saying she sacrificed herself for the planet is erroneous."
First off, this was your third point. Your numbers are as erroneous as your argument. Learn how to use a ten-dollar word after you comprehend a penny word. Don't be silly. Further, if you're fighting for a cause (let's say you're chaining yourself to a tree in the face of loggers and they kill you), you still sacrifice yourself through the associated risks. Define "sacrifice" for me; I dare you. Here, let me help you: "to suffer loss of, give up, renounce, injure, or destroy, especially for an ideal, belief, or end" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).

>"Cait Sith's 'sacrifice' ... 10th anniversary"
While I agree with the fact that it's a mimetic parody of the irony behind death that can be revived in videogames, I think you're wrong on many levels. For one, your grammar is awful for someone who touts themselves as a literary mind. Secondary to that is the fact that you should refer to point one. The fact that you used thus in such a poorly written sentence speaks volumes.
> "Aerith was not the only one who knew Cloud wasn't really himself. Tifa knew it too."
And so did the entire gaming community. It's called ludographical metafiction. Read more, talk less.

> "And no, the ending didn't represent the end of humanity because we see, 500 years later, that humanity still exists. We hear the laughter of children in the background."
How do you define humanity? Is it through homo sapiens existing or through culture developed thereof? If a nuclear war started tomorrow and 99% of the population dropped off, would you define that as "the end of humanity" or not? The answer is yes; you would. If you want to be semantic about it, understand that you're not doing it properly and that you exhibit significant fallacies.

> "And while FFVII has a great, enriching story full of memorable characters and themes about life, love, and never giving up, it's preposterous to say that it's on the level of actual literature. It can stand up to some of the contemporary stories and novels out today, but equating it to works of literary merit is naive and, to some who appreciate classic literature, an insult. They're not in the same league, and the creators never tried to put it there."
This is the one that makes you seem like an absolute elitist who utters so many words without saying anything of value at all. How would you define literature? Again, open a dictionary. Was the game written? Is there a script? Was it considered superior at the time? Does it have a lasting impact? You do not understand how literature works. If you consider "high literature" as a silo stuck in the vacuum of ancient works, you're living in the past and failing to adapt to the developing world of narratives. At one point, movies were not considered culturally significant, and yet here we are, with thousands of scholars studying them for their impacts and messaging. The same has happened with video games. It's called New Media Studies; look it up. Great, you read Plato. You know who else read Plato? Most significant authors since then. Who read those? The great contemporary writers we know today. You use big words, but you know nothing about what you're talking about. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not literature; just because something is old doesn't mean it's actual literature. Get off your high horse and come back down to earth.

>"I hate to break it to you, but FFVII is a game. A fantasy RPG. It's a good one, but please don't build it up as if it's some type of life-changing experience. This is the exact shit that gets FFVII mocked by the rest of FF fandom and fandom at large. Keep your perspective. FFVII is hardly the pennacle of storytelling excellence. That's naive."
It's spelled pinnacle. It was life-changing for many people. A senior communications lead for Greenpeace UK (an organization that has been around since 1971) by the name of Tyler Kruse credits FFVII as a key reason he joined the organization.

You seem like a petty, small person. The OP was just trying to explain their point of view on what they thought the story meant and what the underlying message was. In case you weren't aware, that's literally what studying literature is all about. Learn how to participate in discourse. I don't expect a reply, but my goodness, your outlook is trash.

P.S. I fixed most your grammar and spelling mistakes in the quotes I used from you. You're welcome. Hope you have an excellent night, and I hope you've grown up a little bit since 2009.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Howdy, I'm writing my master's thesis on FF7-O vs. FF7-R and how the remake complicated its ecocritical messaging to keep pace with developments within environmental discourse. I've been combing forums for how the community engages with both, and so I stumbled upon this entry.

I didn't intend to make an account, but after reading Mako's reply, I felt the need to deal with the elitism they wreak. I'll unpack this piece by piece; 14 years later, I think it's worthwhile.

> "FFVII was a religious experience for you, wasn't it?"
You're abusing the word experience by attaching the qualifier of religious, you do realize that, don't you? Someone enjoyed the game, and they felt like it inspired them to make some sort of point (whether or not we agree with it), but you shame them. You yourself are on an internet forum, posting about a game that was released 12 years prior to its release. You're a sycophant as well, but for much worse reasons.

>"First off, Aerith didn't sacrifice herself. She did not intend to die. She was murdered by surprise by Sephiroth. So saying she sacrificed herself for the planet is erroneous."
First off, this was your third point. Your numbers are as erroneous as your argument. Learn how to use a ten-dollar word after you comprehend a penny word. Don't be silly. Further, if you're fighting for a cause (let's say you're chaining yourself to a tree in the face of loggers and they kill you), you still sacrifice yourself through the associated risks. Define "sacrifice" for me; I dare you. Here, let me help you: "to suffer loss of, give up, renounce, injure, or destroy, especially for an ideal, belief, or end" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).

>"Cait Sith's 'sacrifice' ... 10th anniversary"
While I agree with the fact that it's a mimetic parody of the irony behind death that can be revived in videogames, I think you're wrong on many levels. For one, your grammar is awful for someone who touts themselves as a literary mind. Secondary to that is the fact that you should refer to point one. The fact that you used thus in such a poorly written sentence speaks volumes.
> "Aerith was not the only one who knew Cloud wasn't really himself. Tifa knew it too."
And so did the entire gaming community. It's called ludographical metafiction. Read more, talk less.

> "And no, the ending didn't represent the end of humanity because we see, 500 years later, that humanity still exists. We hear the laughter of children in the background."
How do you define humanity? Is it through homo sapiens existing or through culture developed thereof? If a nuclear war started tomorrow and 99% of the population dropped off, would you define that as "the end of humanity" or not? The answer is yes; you would. If you want to be semantic about it, understand that you're not doing it properly and that you exhibit significant fallacies.

> "And while FFVII has a great, enriching story full of memorable characters and themes about life, love, and never giving up, it's preposterous to say that it's on the level of actual literature. It can stand up to some of the contemporary stories and novels out today, but equating it to works of literary merit is naive and, to some who appreciate classic literature, an insult. They're not in the same league, and the creators never tried to put it there."
This is the one that makes you seem like an absolute elitist who utters so many words without saying anything of value at all. How would you define literature? Again, open a dictionary. Was the game written? Is there a script? Was it considered superior at the time? Does it have a lasting impact? You do not understand how literature works. If you consider "high literature" as a silo stuck in the vacuum of ancient works, you're living in the past and failing to adapt to the developing world of narratives. At one point, movies were not considered culturally significant, and yet here we are, with thousands of scholars studying them for their impacts and messaging. The same has happened with video games. It's called New Media Studies; look it up. Great, you read Plato. You know who else read Plato? Most significant authors since then. Who read those? The great contemporary writers we know today. You use big words, but you know nothing about what you're talking about. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not literature; just because something is old doesn't mean it's actual literature. Get off your high horse and come back down to earth.

>"I hate to break it to you, but FFVII is a game. A fantasy RPG. It's a good one, but please don't build it up as if it's some type of life-changing experience. This is the exact shit that gets FFVII mocked by the rest of FF fandom and fandom at large. Keep your perspective. FFVII is hardly the pennacle of storytelling excellence. That's naive."
It's spelled pinnacle. It was life-changing for many people. A senior communications lead for Greenpeace UK (an organization that has been around since 1971) by the name of Tyler Kruse credits FFVII as a key reason he joined the organization.

You seem like a petty, small person. The OP was just trying to explain their point of view on what they thought the story meant and what the underlying message was. In case you weren't aware, that's literally what studying literature is all about. Learn how to participate in discourse. I don't expect a reply, but my goodness, your outlook is trash.

P.S. I fixed most your grammar and spelling mistakes in the quotes I used from you. You're welcome. Hope you have an excellent night, and I hope you've grown up a little bit since 2009.

lol, lmao
 

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
Howdy, I'm writing my master's thesis on FF7-O vs. FF7-R and how the remake complicated its ecocritical messaging to keep pace with developments within environmental discourse. I've been combing forums for how the community engages with both, and so I stumbled upon this entry.

I didn't intend to make an account, but after reading Mako's reply, I felt the need to deal with the elitism they wreak. I'll unpack this piece by piece; 14 years later, I think it's worthwhile.

> "FFVII was a religious experience for you, wasn't it?"
You're abusing the word experience by attaching the qualifier of religious, you do realize that, don't you? Someone enjoyed the game, and they felt like it inspired them to make some sort of point (whether or not we agree with it), but you shame them. You yourself are on an internet forum, posting about a game that was released 12 years prior to its release. You're a sycophant as well, but for much worse reasons.

>"First off, Aerith didn't sacrifice herself. She did not intend to die. She was murdered by surprise by Sephiroth. So saying she sacrificed herself for the planet is erroneous."
First off, this was your third point. Your numbers are as erroneous as your argument. Learn how to use a ten-dollar word after you comprehend a penny word. Don't be silly. Further, if you're fighting for a cause (let's say you're chaining yourself to a tree in the face of loggers and they kill you), you still sacrifice yourself through the associated risks. Define "sacrifice" for me; I dare you. Here, let me help you: "to suffer loss of, give up, renounce, injure, or destroy, especially for an ideal, belief, or end" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).

>"Cait Sith's 'sacrifice' ... 10th anniversary"
While I agree with the fact that it's a mimetic parody of the irony behind death that can be revived in videogames, I think you're wrong on many levels. For one, your grammar is awful for someone who touts themselves as a literary mind. Secondary to that is the fact that you should refer to point one. The fact that you used thus in such a poorly written sentence speaks volumes.
> "Aerith was not the only one who knew Cloud wasn't really himself. Tifa knew it too."
And so did the entire gaming community. It's called ludographical metafiction. Read more, talk less.

> "And no, the ending didn't represent the end of humanity because we see, 500 years later, that humanity still exists. We hear the laughter of children in the background."
How do you define humanity? Is it through homo sapiens existing or through culture developed thereof? If a nuclear war started tomorrow and 99% of the population dropped off, would you define that as "the end of humanity" or not? The answer is yes; you would. If you want to be semantic about it, understand that you're not doing it properly and that you exhibit significant fallacies.

> "And while FFVII has a great, enriching story full of memorable characters and themes about life, love, and never giving up, it's preposterous to say that it's on the level of actual literature. It can stand up to some of the contemporary stories and novels out today, but equating it to works of literary merit is naive and, to some who appreciate classic literature, an insult. They're not in the same league, and the creators never tried to put it there."
This is the one that makes you seem like an absolute elitist who utters so many words without saying anything of value at all. How would you define literature? Again, open a dictionary. Was the game written? Is there a script? Was it considered superior at the time? Does it have a lasting impact? You do not understand how literature works. If you consider "high literature" as a silo stuck in the vacuum of ancient works, you're living in the past and failing to adapt to the developing world of narratives. At one point, movies were not considered culturally significant, and yet here we are, with thousands of scholars studying them for their impacts and messaging. The same has happened with video games. It's called New Media Studies; look it up. Great, you read Plato. You know who else read Plato? Most significant authors since then. Who read those? The great contemporary writers we know today. You use big words, but you know nothing about what you're talking about. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not literature; just because something is old doesn't mean it's actual literature. Get off your high horse and come back down to earth.

>"I hate to break it to you, but FFVII is a game. A fantasy RPG. It's a good one, but please don't build it up as if it's some type of life-changing experience. This is the exact shit that gets FFVII mocked by the rest of FF fandom and fandom at large. Keep your perspective. FFVII is hardly the pennacle of storytelling excellence. That's naive."
It's spelled pinnacle. It was life-changing for many people. A senior communications lead for Greenpeace UK (an organization that has been around since 1971) by the name of Tyler Kruse credits FFVII as a key reason he joined the organization.

You seem like a petty, small person. The OP was just trying to explain their point of view on what they thought the story meant and what the underlying message was. In case you weren't aware, that's literally what studying literature is all about. Learn how to participate in discourse. I don't expect a reply, but my goodness, your outlook is trash.

P.S. I fixed most your grammar and spelling mistakes in the quotes I used from you. You're welcome. Hope you have an excellent night, and I hope you've grown up a little bit since 2009.
Hi username
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
Imagine feeling like you have to use passive aggressive snark and make fun of someone's grammar 14 years after someone posted. Who hurt you? Was it Mako himself, 14 years ago? Would you like to talk to a professional? :monster:

I had to look up "ludographic metafiction" because supposedly everyone's supposed to know these phrases if they read a bit. It's literally only used in one essay about FFVII Remake, :monster:.
 
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