The Winner of Our Discontent — 2016 U.S. Election Results Discussion

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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I just remember a lot of early polls showing that he'd beat Trump by a lot, but again those were quite a while ago. It's hard to say how it would have played out but I do feel he'd have had a better chance than Hillary

Would he have outperformed Hillary? Maybe. If he had the full backing of the DNC then maybe, yeah.

Would he have ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY beat Trump because of some ancient ass polls? By that logic alone, fuck no. I love Bernie, I do. But he was/is an untested, unscathed politician running on a message that just a few decades ago was the considered the ideology of our sworn existential enemy.

Maybe Bernie WOULD have beat Trump. Some of his ideals are certainly things we should take forward. But as a whole we can't boil our loss down to "well bernie would have beat him time to die" because shit ain't gonna get done that way. We need to stop looking at the ground and take a hard ideological look at not only why we lost, but why we lost so many votes to Trump.

Trump himself isn't even that great a candidate. Obama would have annihilated him. Biden could have given up a run for his money. So what's the deal? Where did Hillary fail?

My buddy actually made a comment about this on Facebook that I reshared, which basically breaks down to the fact that Hillary lost the election WAY more than Trump won the election. It start with the fact that Trump and Clinton were the least popular presidential candidates in the history of the United States. Then you look at the numbers:

• Trump got just <1million fewer votes than Romney or McCain did in their runs.
• Clinton got just short of 6million votes less than Obama did in 2012, and 9.5million less than Obama in 2008 – and she STILL won the popular vote.

That's what it really boils down to. Clinton is far more unfavorable to the base she needed to connect with than Trump was with the base he needed to win with.

Also, you can't call Bernie an "untested, unscathed politician" given his long career (especially compared against Donald Trump's experience as a politician), not to mention that before the election and even now, he's the most popular/favorable politician in America.

So, we'd've had the most popular politician in America Vs. the least popular Republican presidential candidate in history. There's absolutely no contest. The DNC fucked all of us by ensuring that the democratic presidential candidate was one who was also monumentally unlikeable to the point that she couldn't win.

When it comes to the full, very tl;dr details of why Bernie Sanders wouldn't've failed in the election – This article actually has a really good breakdown of even more specific factors that crippled Clinton's chances at winning that wouldn't've hit Bernie at all.

The end result is that the DNC needs to get its shit together. Sanders just endorsed Keith Ellison for the DNC Chairman and hasn't ruled out giving the race a go again in 2020, but overall that tl;dr article has all the details about where Clinton failed and the Democrats need to clean up their act.



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Kai Schulen

... ... ...▼
AKA
Trainer Red
Aw man, I knew I should have tried to elaborate more, but the whole "blame straight white guys for the election" was part of my rhetheoric. (and in response to Dashell's post about how people on her FB feed were blaming straight white guys for Trump).

I mean, I don't think most Trump voters are bigots and racists. I mean, yes, I know, racists and bigots voted for Trump, and they are really, really vocal and active about it, but it could be just an ordinary person who agreed with some of Trump's policies and not agreed with some of Clinton's policies, but was still indecisive about who to vote for, but was told by everyone else "if you think Trump's policies are good, then you're a racist bigot retard, vote for Hillary instead", and not do anything to address their concerns or reach out to them, well. It's not hard to see who would vote for who.

I swear I'm going somewhere with this, but I just found an interesting post about this: https://www.facebook.com/wes.alwan/posts/583104348775

Anyways, I think I'm done playing devil's advocate for the time being. That being said, FF Wikia's tweet on the whole election thing accurately sums up how I feel about anything politics:

https://twitter.com/FFWiki/status/795783782943035392
 
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Random Nobody

local roach
Clinton, er. I haven't a clue.
One of the many failings of the Clinton campaign is that she didn't campaign at all--she just advertised herself as Not Trump. She essentially lacked any political identity trying to play the chameleon and busying herself hitting the whip nae-naes&#8482; and dabbingtons&#8482;. I called during the primaries that after she finished feinting left(ist) to siphon the Burnt Sandcastles vote, she'd swing right back to being the neo-con warhawk Kissinger apostle she's been for the last several decades. Turns out she didn't even get that far because she coasted along with same overconfident air of inevitability that got her crushed in 2008.

There's absolutely no contest. The DNC fucked all of us by ensuring that the democratic presidential candidate was one who was also monumentally unlikeable to the point that she couldn't win.
Right. Why did she even run when she know don't nobody like her ass. Like, take the hint, gorl.

You would have thought by now she would be tired of the smell of d feet.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
Give it a shot; I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I haven't gotten the impression that this thread is disputing that? It's people processing the hows and whys of what took place, but that's all.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
This is just one:

I'm going to say something that's going to piss a lot of people off but


I was looking at Trump's website and his plans for more schools and his health care reform and... I gotta be honest, most of it isn't that bad. I'd actually consider it to be "good." Some of his other ideas are actually alright too.


So maybe... some people voted based on that. If I just READ his ideas and didn't ever hear a line from a single speech he said, I wouldn't have considered him nearly as bad. And don't get me wrong, everything looks great on paper but I actually prefer what he has for health care vs what we have now. I never liked that it was mandatory for people to have. If some super healthy dude doesn't want it and ends up in a car accident, that's HIS fault.

Still not a fan of the wall but what are you going to do. I doubt it's going to happen anyway. And I hope that he leaves LGBTQs and abortion alone, but Pence is more of a worry there.

Not saying it would "make America great again" but if people voted based on things like that, I'd understand.

And I didn't have to go back too far in the thread.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
There is so much wrong with this thread I would not know where to begin.

THIS sounds like you have issues with the discussions taking place in the thread.

Give it a shot; I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.

THIS sounds like you have issues with the situation that America's put itself into.


I think that generally your initial comment made folks interested in what about our lengthy commentary and analysis of the situation was the "so much wrong with this thread" whereas it seems your sentiments were meant to be more directed towards the lines of "so much wrong with the situation &#8211; which is also the topic of this thread" unless I'm mistaken.




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Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
To clarify: my points are based on the fact that there isn't nearly enough, at least for me, talk about how horrible this situation is.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

If that's not correct, please clarify.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I don't see how that post is different than what I said. Processing the hows and whys of what happened. Trump said so many things that some were bound to make sense. As I recall he said he was gonna make a higher minimum wage than Clinton at one point. He also said in the very first Republican primary debate that he would raise the capital gains tax because it was crazy that the owners of these giant mutual funds were paying fewer taxes than the guys actually managing it.
I haven't looked at his site, but if it's got a plan for actually reforming healthcare outside of "repeal obamacare," then, hey, that makes perfect sense.

None of those things are endorsements of the man, it's trying to put together possible reasons for how. Because the idea that 7 states that went for Obama 4 years ago went for Trump suddenly became white supremecists in 4 years isn't hugely explanatory.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

Just...what?
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Also, you can't call Bernie an "untested, unscathed politician" given his long career (especially compared against Donald Trump's experience as a politician), not to mention that before the election and even now, he's the most popular/favorable politician in America.

I don't mean that he's an "untested, unscathed politician" in terms of his experience, I mean he's untested and unscathed in terms of the Republican Smear Machine, which Clinton has been a giant target of for 30 years.

Hillary Clinton, in particular, even compared to equally uncharismatic and shady/corrupt politicians has been fried by Republicans for decades. Almost her entire professional life. Bernie Sanders has not been subject to the same scrutiny, which may or may not have sunk him when it came to the general election.

I concede the point that Donald Trump is unpopular enough for that to maybe not have mattered, but don't forget that many older folks are terrified of socialism, and it's older folks that have decided, and still decide, elections.

Would I have rather Bernie Sanders ran against Trump? Absolutely. Would it have been a sure shot? That, I don't know. Trump is a unique phenomenon that threw a lot of variables into the trash. The rest of your post is spot on, though.

I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.

Oh, that's not what I figured you meant by "There is so much wrong with this thread I would not know where to begin." Whoops.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

Huh?
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
To clarify: my points are based on the fact that there isn't nearly enough, at least for me, talk about how horrible this situation is.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

If that's not correct, please clarify.

I think that if you're looking for outright loathe-spewing about the current president elect Donald Trump, there's plenty of that being felt, but it doesn't do anyone a damn bit of good at this point. He IS the president elect of the United States like it or loathe it.

All of the intolerant assholes got a huge boost to start being openly intolerant (see every story about violence against minorities of any kind in the last 24 hours), and that's fucking terrifying, but at the same time there's no one who can say those things aren't issues in modern America anymore.

Most of our reactions've been attempting to look at the how and why of what happened to allow him to win against Clinton (my previous tl;dr post), but the reality is that THIS IS HAPPENING, AND THIS WILL BE AMERICA FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE TAKES OFFICE, so the biggest and most important thing is to attempt to grapple with the fact that:

&#8226; Not everyone who supported Trump over Clinton is a hate-spewing, bigoted, racist, homophobic piece of shit. He does seem to have a monopoly of support from those groups, but that doesn't mean that everyone who supports him falls into that category. Failing to recognize that is going to make this continue to be irreparable, and as Obama has made pretty clear, that's not an option if we want to have a functional nation.
&#8226; We HAVE to find a way to work with Trump as President in a political situation where the Republicans have the Presidency, the House, & the Senate. The Democrats have ZERO power to just say no to things, because they lack a majority anywhere to exercise any level of control like that.

I don't think that anyone here thinks that this situation is fine. With Trump losing the popular vote, we LITERALLY have the least popular presidential candidate IN HISTORY taking office. There's nothing good about the situation we're in. Had Clinton won, I'd wager that we'd be seeing different types of mass protests and attempts for Texas to secede rather than California. The whole election is monumentally divisive, but if we don't make a MASSIVE effort to rebuild with one another and figure out how to make this shit situation work instead of point fingers and accuse the other side, it's literally never going to improve.




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Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.

Because we know that already. We knew that before the election. But it's obviously more complicated than that, and putting our head in the sands won't do anything.

Let's be pragmatic.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.

Despite the fact that he's received fewer votes than any other candidate in the last three cycles. And the population is 10% bigger than it was three cycles ago! You don't think that warrants any discussion at all? Let's just run down our list of "-ists" for twenty-one pages and not talk about what went wrong to allow the "huge amount of etc. in your country" to win the election despite only garnering that many votes. Good plan.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
@X: I appreciate the comments you have made.

I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. That actually people who do support someone who is known to be racism, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.

@Mog: You recommend pragmatism, but I fail to understand what you mean. Clarify?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.

Because we know that already. We knew that before the election. But it's obviously more complicated than that, and putting our head in the sands won't do anything.

Let's be pragmatic.

Not to mention, it's most often the Republican side that tends to think that "old fashioned racism" either doesn't exist, or disappeared when we got a Black President – but that is demonstrably untrue now given all of the hate that's been emboldened, and they're going to forced to address that and HOPEFULLY even take action against it in a way that's significant.

Hell, the fallout of this election made racism, sexism, jingoism, etc. etc. almost impossible for either side to ignore at this point. The fact that it exists is bad but that's always been the case. The fact that it's been emboldened is terrifying and awful, but it also means that it can't be ignored or hand-waved away.

Hell, Trump even spoke about protecting American LGBTQ citizens in his acceptance speech. Sure he used it as a way to make comments about, "the violence and oppression of a hateful, foreign ideology." as the source of the dangers to them, but it's playing one bias against another – essentially, a slighted way of saying that, "the terrorists win if our gays aren't protected" and that is FAR from a perfect approach because of the other problematic issues of stoking the fires of xenophobic fears of immigrants and refugees, but he knows how to speak to his support base in a way that motivates them.

There's a shit ton of bad here with this election, but if we can't find a way to steer it to do some good, and just antagonize those around us with different political views than us, we're going to make the divide in this country bigger and more dangerous, because we're going to FUEL the hate towards each other instead of resolving it.




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Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
@Force: I didn't say we shouldn't discuss what caused this. I'm saying we're coming up with explanations other than what actually occurred. There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting. Just because Trump won doesn't mean he should have.
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.

I agree that the groundswell of latent bigotry is a huge contributor to Trumps message, regardless of what some Trump supporters might claim. This is one explanation as to WHY he got elected but not how and it's not the whole picture.

The biggest and most dangerous issue is the blatant racism, homophobia, islamophobia, etc that runs rampant in this country and is not curtailed. But the other factors have to be considered because no other president in history could be this blatantly wrong and still win the election.

I don't think anybody here is ignoring this issue but trying to grasp how the hell we wound up in this situation. A crippled electoral college, an unenthused left, and the rallying cry of a lower and middle class rural folk who felt marginalized are all contributing factors that need to be addressed.

Trump broke the mold somehow and everyone here is - without ignoring the major issue before us - trying to figure out the "X" Factor that let this travesty happen.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. that actually people who do support someone who is known to be racist, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise...We're saying that some people who voted for Trump did it for reasons other than 'being racist!' and those reasons must be examined.

You recommend pragmatism, but I fail to understand what you mean. Clarify?

It's easy to dismiss Trump's success to racism and that's it but that will lead us nowhere, because the same people who voted for Trump do and will continue to have voting power for far beyond the next presidential election and their reasons for voting for such an individual must be examined if they are able to be appealed to. Some people you can't appeal to, and that's fine, but in any political situation you must appeal to people who vote for the opposition. You can't murder everyone who voted for Trump or whatever so they can't vote for his successor four years from now.

There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting.

No, the implication is that Trump was successfully appealing to certain fears that Americans have, that that's a conversation worth having within reason.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather)

And so, therefore, I will indict this entire thread and all potentially worthwhile discussion therein.

Dawnbreaker said:
@Force: I didn't say we shouldn't discuss what caused this. I'm saying we're coming up with explanations other than what actually occurred. There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting. Just because Trump won doesn't mean he should have.

Yes. You did. You said this thread is wrong on a bunch of levels or whatever because people acknowledge additional policy proposals Trump has made that might have appealed to the non-racist contingent. To ignore these things is reductive and being willfully ignorant, which is exactly the enemy we're hoping to combat, right?
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
@Force: You're intentionally misunderstanding me and I feel that's disrespectful. I didn't say the whole thread was wrong. There are parts I supported but a lot of it I don't.

@X: I don't think Trump's limp promise to protect the LGBTQ will suddenly undo all the rest of his behavior. I'm glad there's a TINY possibility of a silver lining, but I'm not going to put my faith into it and you can forgive me for that, considering everything else he has promised to do.

@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted. I'm sure there's an idiot or two who voted Trump because they actually don't even watch the News or something, but that's about it.

@Mog: You make a point about the fears, but I cannot help but be disgusted that anyone of a sane mind would vote for a man who is known to be the epitome of violence, racism, etc. I mean, discuss with those people, sure, but I fear you won't be very successful.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
@Force: You're intentionally misunderstanding me and I feel that's disrespectful. I didn't say the whole thread was wrong. There are parts I supported but a lot of it I don't.

Making a drive-by "there is so much wrong with this thread and I would not know where to begin" post is respectful?

@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted.

lolwut? This is exactly the attitude that got the Democrats in trouble in the first place.

@Mog: You make a point about the fears, but I cannot help but be disgusted that anyone of a sane mind would vote for a man who is known to be the epitome of violence, racism, etc. I mean, discuss with those people, sure, but I fear you won't be very successful.

In other words, you have no ideas and therefore do indeed believe that there's no discussion to be had. Because unless your suggestion is actually, as Mog said, to kill everyone that voted for him, I don't understand what you're looking for here.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
giphy.gif
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@X: I appreciate the comments you have made.

I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. That actually people who do support someone who is known to be racism, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.

1: I am absolutely aware that there're people on the board who supported & voted for Trump, so I don't think that I can be wrong on that point.
2: Your second point is off simply because that's not how support like that works from a basic logical standpoint when it comes to prioritization at a basic psychological level. Let me boil this down to give you a bare-bones example.

• Candidate A is openly racist & sexist, but is very nationalist and concerned with American superiority.
• Candidate B is unreliable with high level national security, but is very concerned with equality.

- If you support Candidate A, you're a self-absorbed racist and sexist.
- If you support Candidate B, you're a myopic imbecile who would rather risk the country's safety to protect the minority, despite the fact that if we all fall, they fall, too.
- If you support Candidate C-F, you're whichever of the above failed to win.

> Supporters of Candidate A don't have to be sexist and racist if they think that the issue of preserving national security and improvement is the most important issue for a President.
> Supporters of Candidate B don't have to want to tear the country apart into a weak socialist fairytale if they think that social issues of equality of its citizens are the most important issue for a President.
> Supporters of Candidates C-F don't have to feel either of those ways because they prioritize something else entirely for what they want in a President.


Are racists and sexists going to be incredibly vocal about supporting Candidate A now that they won?
Absolutely.

Are the other Candidate A supporters going to be glad their candidate won, but also a bunch of them feel uncomfortable that that was their only option, because it brought in the bad shit with the thing that they felt was important?
Hell yeah.

Does it do any good to tell all the Candidate A supporters that they're most terrible scum of the Earth for electing a candidate who's such a piece of shit, and they're just as bad as the worst people who also supported Candidate A, when the election was between the two least popular candidates in history?
No. Way.


That's why the numbers in the election skewed heavily with Minorities voting Clinton and Whites voting for Trump because both sides are most motivated by things preying on those demographic's biggest fears – which are just different versions of a fear of safety for self.

And that's what the issue is. The majority of people are just looking for a form of safety that's most applicable to them, but there is a toxicity to any group that wants to use that safety to attack other people. Racism hides under the banner of safety from foreign invasion and oppression, but just because you REALLY, GENUINELY care about safety from foreign invasion doesn't mean that you're unquestionably racist.

If we attack the other side like they're all a caricatured version of the worst that that side has to offer, all we're doing is making each other less safe and making the safety we're all looking for less possible by refusing to work together. That's the number one issue of bipartisan politics, because everything becomes emotionally charged contempt for the other side by falling into an intractable us-or-them mentality rather than attempting to focus on our similarities.

It's our political system making us refuse to work together, rather than bringing us together, and unless we CAN come together, we're never gonna be able to fix this thing and build a better system that will help us STAY together and actually focus on the shitty things lurking in both camps.




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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@X: I don't think Trump's limp promise to protect the LGBTQ will suddenly undo all the rest of his behavior. I'm glad there's a TINY possibility of a silver lining, but I'm not going to put my faith into it and you can forgive me for that, considering everything else he has promised to do.

It was never meant to. I brought it up simply to point out that the reality of the situation isn't nearly as reductive or simple as Trump supporters hating all minorities or even wanting violence and those things to happen. I'd go into more detail, but my previous post does a much better job of it – I just happened to've made it before I saw this comment and wanted to address it directly.




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