The Winner of Our Discontent — 2016 U.S. Election Results Discussion

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Kai Schulen

... ... ...▼
AKA
Trainer Red
Yeah, I don't support Trump either, but I was getting real tired of seeing all the fearmongering/3rd party vote blamers/hatred on twitter/facebook/tumblr. (oh god, especially tumblr and facebook.)
Honestly, shit like that is why I avoid talking and thinking about politics that much -- it's rather difficult for me to find information/news that isn't biased and hellbent on making the other side look like the villains, and I hate that I have to dig for actual information.

My friend and I were just talking about how it's difficult to make an informed decisions about which politician to vote in for the local government, when they don't offer a lot of information about themselves, like what are their political stances, their plans for what they'll do to help. And if no information is offered about who to vote in, it's going to make me want to bash my face in and drink myself into a coma.

Speaking of, I guess another bright thing about the incoming Trump presidency is that I'll finally have more reasons to drink, and that I'll finally stop having the alcohol tolerance of a stereotypical tiny asian girl.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yeah, I don't support Trump either, but I was getting real tired of seeing all the fearmongering/3rd party vote blamers/hatred on twitter/facebook/tumblr. (oh god, especially tumblr and facebook.)

Yeah I saw a post floating around facebook that said "Hey Florida, this is what we meant when you said you're wasting your vote" and showed how many votes Hillary and Trump got and how many Gary Johnson got... and I guess the point was if people had voted for Hillary instead of Johnson she would have won but here's the thing


There's no way of knowing who those people would have voted for if Gary wasn't an option. Gary is pretty conservative and it's entirely possible all they would have done is widen Trump's lead.

People who voted Harambe on the other hand.. I don't quite understand.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
People who voted Harambe on the other hand.. I don't quite understand.
That's a hoax, though. Unless I'm mistaken, the lion's share of states have a pre-selected list of candidates eligible for write-in (entry on which the candidates themselves must file for). And in cases where this is not so, the contents of the ballots in question are not publicised.
 

CK

buried but breathing
AKA
CK, 2D, wanker
I doubt the people who voted fr Harambe would have voted for either major candidate anyway. He probably got those votes because of my earlier point. People are sick of this two party system and there is no other viable party willing to step up or more likely not getting the coverage to be able to be seen as a viable option. It happens everywhere else most democracies are ruled by a two party system but america is unique in the fact there are only two parties that get any sort of coverage and into the house and senate.

I'm sure a few people did a few write ins its 2016 after all :monster: what a year it has been
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
People who voted Harambe on the other hand.. I don't quite understand.
That's a hoax, though. Unless I'm mistaken, the lion's share of states have a pre-selected list of candidates eligible for write-in (entry on which the candidates themselves must file for). And in cases where this is not so, the contents of the ballots in question are not publicised.

Yeah I know he didn't get the 15,000 votes but... I'm sure someone voted for him :monster:
 

CK

buried but breathing
AKA
CK, 2D, wanker
Like I havent read up on who's who in Parliament in new Zealand but I can tell you there at at least 6 different parties in Parliament right now and there are 4 major ones being labor, national, greens and the Maori party all with at least 5 seats or more and a few lesser parties in the mix as well. I just dont know how it has never changed for you guys especially with all the disenfranchisement going on the last 20 years or so.
 
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Random Nobody

local roach
There are a lot of reasons, but how inextricable money and campaigning has become, for one. If you aren't backed by corporate funds, it's unlikely you will ever set foot in even the lowest echelons of the political process. A presidential bid takes dollars in the excess of a dozen million, and that's just at the very earliest phases.

Couple that with the fact that "democratic" selection is winner-take-all and not proportional at any stage, the fact the DNC/RNC and their establishments work hard to tamp out and destroy any offshoots from their party line and/or competitors, the fact that most news media is privatised, the FCC's Fairness Doctrine was struck down, and third parties can't even reach a platform, and you get what you see now. You would have to have some serious grassroots organisation for a third party to threaten the Republican/Democrat establishment, and that just hasn't happened (though maybe it will now that the DNC's beclowned themselves).

It doesn't help that elections at the state and local levels often go ignored (which again, is in large part due to a lack of ready information) and presidential elections are characterised as (and are for some) life-and-death battles in which people feel pressured to sacrifice ideology for the sake of immediate interests and safety.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted. I'm sure there's an idiot or two who voted Trump because they actually don't even watch the News or something, but that's about it.

Dawn, I realize this is maybe not want you want to hear right now but bigotry is not the end-all, be-all of a person. It is endemic of greater issues of their upbringing and society and are the worst hallmarks of a human but they do not (necessarily) make up the entirety of the person. Assuming that every bigot out there lives their lives with literally nothing in their lives apart from hatred is far too simplistic. And most bigots out there honestly wouldn't consider themselves bigoted because they fall under the ignorantly racist not the hatefully racist.
Honestly, it might not be the entirety of a person but it's a pretty big wall to surmount. Saying to 'love your local bigot' is a hard request to carry out. They will be other things besides a bigot, but that's one fault too far for some. Especially if, to take from x's post, that bigotry (or incidental support of it) encroaches on your personal safety.

Like it would be if you're a Muslim in America and now your country will have a president who called for banning people like you from entering the country. Living in a country where people are that suspicious of you (or even people who look remotely like you, that is to say brown and wearing different clothing like sihks) that you have to be barred or 'extreme vetted' doesn't make for an atmosphere that feels safe. Never mind that you're more likely to fall off a chair and die than be the victim of an Islamic terror attack in America. Or to die in a right wing terror attack (which for some reason the white community seem to fail at noticing and reporting to the authorities, hmmmmm very suspicious there).

(Just in case it isn't clear that last part is a play on the idea that some blame for terror attacks by Muslims falls on their community but apparently saying "I never suspected he would do something like this" is a fine answer if the guy is white because white mass murderers are mentally ill loners and never radicalised ideologically.)

But people perceive that they are under a bigger threat than statistical analysis would suggest, which is what drives politics now. Like calling Clinton a hawkish warmonger (tho I'm not saying she's not) so you vote for a guy whose idea of international security is "bomb the shit out of them (and their families)" which must have taken weeks to come up with, it's so comprehensive and meticulous. Wanting to force your allies to pay up as you run your military like a pmc sounds great too. Also having even more nukes in the world also seems like a great way to reduce global tension. And let's just waterboard people not because it gets information but because it makes you feel really good to torture people.

I mean, that feels like some ghandi level policy right there.

This might be getting off track down so I'm going to jump back to the opening stuff.

Embracing someone who harbours bigoted beliefs is a burden to be put on people who are already marginalised. That's not to say they are irredeemable, but that redemption is their work to do. And if they aren't going to show that they're willing to make the effort to change, what's in it for the people who have to bear the brunt of that bigotry in their daily lives?

Assuming everyone who voted trump is a white racist/sexist/homophobe/transphobe/etc. might not be the most effective way to go about this, but then this gets spun around as a working class revolt against 'the elites'. (Ignore the fact that the man at the head of this is someone who was born into the world of the elites and built an entire personal brand around that image of a rich and ruthless businessman.) Lot gets made about well-off white liberals sitting around casting judgment on the poor blue-collar everyman on their blogs and biased mainstream media (sometimes by well-off white people through their own blogs and biased media). Like it's all out of touch rich kids and their commie parents.

Like the working class doesn't include the various 60~80% black and latin voters who went for Clinton. Like all trans people have the lifestyle and resources of Caitlyn Jenner. Like all gay people are rich, famous and white like Ellen or Niall Patrick Harris. Like a lot of these people aren't working class or in poverty and aren't worried about job security or wealth inequality. Like they are people with illnesses and disabilities and mental health issues that make getting a job difficult if not impossible and need assistance from the organisations that are likely to be under threat in a republican run state. Like these people are 'the mainstream media'. Like they all have college degrees in 'useless' liberal arts subjects or a degree at all.

So maybe before throwing stones at ivory towers, make sure the glass in your house is covered with notes saying everyone who criticises you is a white hipster with a trust fund and contempt for the 'common (WASP-y) man'.

They might not be pure bigots, but those well-off white people who voted trump probably don't have to deal with the realities of what you're asking people to look past.

Talking about healing the divide might sound more convincing if it weren't coming from people who spent the last 8 years trying to convince people that Obama hated America and wanted to destroy it with socialism and Hillary/the left in general would do the same.
 

CK

buried but breathing
AKA
CK, 2D, wanker
Also just saying guys it is very easy to immigrate to New Zealand from what I have heard the laws are very relaxed compared to most places. Just don't move to Auckland, that place is a shithole. In fact just avoid the North Island entirely. The only thing it has going for it is Hobbiton and Rotarua but that place is just all about volcanic mud plies that literally smell like shit. :monster: And if you gain citizenship you can live in Australia also.
 
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Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
Flags burning, Trump effigies hanging in the streets of America’s major cities

Okay... I can't stand Trump, but like several people in this thread have mentioned, the election's over, Trump won, he's the president-elect. We need to just fucking suck it up and deal with it. This riot mentality is uncalled for and embarrassing to the entire country. People need to stop throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way this time and act like adults.

For that matter, the winners aren't exactly being gracious, either: Day 1 In Trump's America

At what point did the nearly the entire country revert to a bunch of juvenile lunatics?

/soapbox
 

AvecAloes

Donator
When we elected a bigoted, racist, misogynist. I don't blame people for protesting. It's what people do when they feel unsafe. Should they do it peacefully? Absolutely. There have been several marches in Philly so far, and they've all been non-violent. I am 100% not ok with destructive and/or violent protests, but 100% for peaceful protests. The people who supported Trump and are using Trump's election as fodder and justification for violent, racist, sexist behaviors are doing so because they feel empowered by his election. If Trump can get away with being a bully and with bragging about committing sexual assault, why can't they?

To tell people to get over it is a little bit too simplistic of a request when Trump supporters are now doing horrible things to their fellow Americans because they feel empowered by Trump's election.
 

Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
People need to stop throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way this time and act like adults.
How are protests in any way comparable to hate-crimes.

I wasn't comparing the two... just pointing out that both were happening.

To tell people to get over it is a little bit too simplistic of a request when Trump supporters are now doing horrible things to their fellow Americans because they feel empowered by Trump's election.

I actually said suck it up and deal with it, not 'get over it'. This isn't dealing with it. This is losing control. Nothing will come of this but scorn from the right.

A riot is not a protest. I don't have any issues with the protests. It's when people start lighting things on fire and smashing up businesses that it becomes ridiculous. When it gets to that point, yes... they're throwing a temper tantrum. It accomplishes exactly nothing, beyond destroying the area that, often times, they live in. If you're going to do that, then you could at least have the decency to light your own property on fire instead of someone else's. I don't see many people smashing their own windows because they're angry. They're smashing their neighbors' windows (many of whom likely agree with them) instead.
 

AvecAloes

Donator
Ok, so how about the people who are peacefully protesting? Are they losing control? Or are they dealing with it? It seems to me that they're trying to find a way to unite and deal with it. Even if nothing comes of their protests, even if they don't change the fact that he's been elected, they're still coming together, finding unity and solidarity. That, to me, seems like a pretty good way to "deal with it".
 

Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
Ok, so how about the people who are peacefully protesting? Are they losing control? Or are they dealing with it? It seems to me that they're trying to find a way to unite and deal with it. Even if nothing comes of their protests, even if they don't change the fact that he's been elected, they're still coming together, finding unity and solidarity. That, to me, seems like a pretty good way to "deal with it".


I don't have any issues with the protests. It's when people start lighting things on fire and smashing up businesses that it becomes ridiculous.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
giphy.gif


(Why did Dawnbreaker get b& lol.)
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted. I'm sure there's an idiot or two who voted Trump because they actually don't even watch the News or something, but that's about it.

Dawn, I realize this is maybe not want you want to hear right now but bigotry is not the end-all, be-all of a person. It is endemic of greater issues of their upbringing and society and are the worst hallmarks of a human but they do not (necessarily) make up the entirety of the person. Assuming that every bigot out there lives their lives with literally nothing in their lives apart from hatred is far too simplistic. And most bigots out there honestly wouldn't consider themselves bigoted because they fall under the ignorantly racist not the hatefully racist.
Honestly, it might not be the entirety of a person but it's a pretty big wall to surmount. Saying to 'love your local bigot' is a hard request to carry out. They will be other things besides a bigot, but that's one fault too far for some. Especially if, to take from x's post, that bigotry (or incidental support of it) encroaches on your personal safety.

Like it would be if you're a Muslim in America and now your country will have a president who called for banning people like you from entering the country. Living in a country where people are that suspicious of you (or even people who look remotely like you, that is to say brown and wearing different clothing like sihks) that you have to be barred or 'extreme vetted' doesn't make for an atmosphere that feels safe. Never mind that you're more likely to fall off a chair and die than be the victim of an Islamic terror attack in America. Or to die in a right wing terror attack (which for some reason the white community seem to fail at noticing and reporting to the authorities, hmmmmm very suspicious there).

(Just in case it isn't clear that last part is a play on the idea that some blame for terror attacks by Muslims falls on their community but apparently saying "I never suspected he would do something like this" is a fine answer if the guy is white because white mass murderers are mentally ill loners and never radicalised ideologically.)

But people perceive that they are under a bigger threat than statistical analysis would suggest, which is what drives politics now. Like calling Clinton a hawkish warmonger (tho I'm not saying she's not) so you vote for a guy whose idea of international security is "bomb the shit out of them (and their families)" which must have taken weeks to come up with, it's so comprehensive and meticulous. Wanting to force your allies to pay up as you run your military like a pmc sounds great too. Also having even more nukes in the world also seems like a great way to reduce global tension. And let's just waterboard people not because it gets information but because it makes you feel really good to torture people.

I mean, that feels like some ghandi level policy right there.

This might be getting off track down so I'm going to jump back to the opening stuff.

Embracing someone who harbours bigoted beliefs is a burden to be put on people who are already marginalised. That's not to say they are irredeemable, but that redemption is their work to do. And if they aren't going to show that they're willing to make the effort to change, what's in it for the people who have to bear the brunt of that bigotry in their daily lives?

Assuming everyone who voted trump is a white racist/sexist/homophobe/transphobe/etc. might not be the most effective way to go about this, but then this gets spun around as a working class revolt against 'the elites'. (Ignore the fact that the man at the head of this is someone who was born into the world of the elites and built an entire personal brand around that image of a rich and ruthless businessman.) Lot gets made about well-off white liberals sitting around casting judgment on the poor blue-collar everyman on their blogs and biased mainstream media (sometimes by well-off white people through their own blogs and biased media). Like it's all out of touch rich kids and their commie parents.

Like the working class doesn't include the various 60~80% black and latin voters who went for Clinton. Like all trans people have the lifestyle and resources of Caitlyn Jenner. Like all gay people are rich, famous and white like Ellen or Niall Patrick Harris. Like a lot of these people aren't working class or in poverty and aren't worried about job security or wealth inequality. Like they are people with illnesses and disabilities and mental health issues that make getting a job difficult if not impossible and need assistance from the organisations that are likely to be under threat in a republican run state. Like these people are 'the mainstream media'. Like they all have college degrees in 'useless' liberal arts subjects or a degree at all.

So maybe before throwing stones at ivory towers, make sure the glass in your house is covered with notes saying everyone who criticises you is a white hipster with a trust fund and contempt for the 'common (WASP-y) man'.

They might not be pure bigots, but those well-off white people who voted trump probably don't have to deal with the realities of what you're asking people to look past.

Talking about healing the divide might sound more convincing if it weren't coming from people who spent the last 8 years trying to convince people that Obama hated America and wanted to destroy it with socialism and Hillary/the left in general would do the same.

This is all well and good, but those same people still have voting power and something must be actually done unless we want to see people like Trump voted into office forever.

(Why did Dawnbreaker get b& lol.)

She requested it.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
...Stupid Newt Gangrene and this HUAC revival movement.

Anyway, judging by the speech and action plan, it seems like one of the first areas of political investment will be infrastructure, which...considering the complete reliance on private financing, is (probably not by coincidence) a fast track way for the Trump administration to reward itself and its allies. So really, between that, Trump's shares in Energy Transfer Partners and Phillips 66, and the intent to dismantle regulatory agencies like the EPA (starting with Myron Ebell), even the "best case" self-enrichment is looking like a series of long-term disasters.

Also:

Restoring Community Safety Act. Reduces surging crime, drugs and violence by creating a Task Force On Violent Crime and increasing funding for programs that train and assist local police; increases resources for federal law enforcement agencies and federal prosecutors to dismantle criminal gangs and put violent offenders behind bars.
I just know...in mines heart, that Bill Clinton's malevolent spirit ghostwrote these bars.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Can you guys fact check something for me? I've been hearing that there wasn't really any significant difference in how the minorities voted this time to any other election, despite all the anti minority rhetoric, is that true?
 

Random Nobody

local roach
How do you mean? What difference in particular? Black and African Americans usually vote Democrat in overwhelming numbers (ie, excesses of 85 - 95%), so there was no change there. Non-black Latinos and Asian Americans also vote Democrat at over two-thirds margins, which was also reflected this election.

...Not sure why that would be unexpected, though?
 

Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
Yes, I see that, but does that fall into your definition of "dealing with it"?

Why wouldn't it? Peaceful protest is a cornerstone of our society and has been used effectively for years.

Can you guys fact check something for me? I've been hearing that there wasn't really any significant difference in how the minorities voted this time to any other election, despite all the anti minority rhetoric, is that true?

According to Pew Research Clinton took 65% of the Latino vote to Trump's 29%... which was very similar to the spread for Obama's first term, but less than his second term.

She also only got 88% of the African American vote to Obama's 95% and I believe I've read that there was a notably lower voter turnout for African Americans in general this year.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
She also only got 88% of the African American vote to Obama's 95% and I believe I've read that there was a notably lower voter turnout for African Americans in general this year.
This isn't unusual, though--if anything, Obama was the outlier. Kerry took 88% of the black vote (compared to Bush's 11%), and Gore carried the black vote at 90% (to Bush's 9%). Trump had 8% of the vote, which is nearly identical to Romney's 7%, and lower than their predecessors. So we don't exactly have any wildcard elements here.

As for the latter, it's also unsurprising, being this is the first election we've seen with the gutted VRA...which itself led to an insurgence of laws that "targeted African Americans with surgical precision." It's entirely possible Clinton would have won some of the battleground states were it not for the wave of legislation designed to facilitate voter suppression.

Plus, again, nobody likes her ass lol. She didn't energise the Democrats' core constituents (people of colour/younger voters in general) in the way Obama or even Bready Sandals did, so while they might have shown up to vote for her, it was a depressed vote (eg, they cast their ballots, but weren't campaigning for her, weren't urging their associates to vote for her, and didn't bring 5 - 6 people with them to the ballot box).

Why wouldn't it? Peaceful protest is a cornerstone of our society and has been used effectively for years.
Iono...about all det....
 
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