Things Tifa is not (Common Tifa misconceptions)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^

Matthew, of course Cloud is stronger than Tifa. He can hold out to more than one remnant attacking him when he had Geostigma while Tifa lost to Loz.

We're speaking about emotional strength. Yes, Cloud can function without Tifa technically but we're talking about the context of AC where all of them are carrying sins and mistakes from the past. Tifa is doing a lot better than Cloud in moving on. We can argue that indeed, Cloud had it worse than Tifa but he's shutting himself off from others.

Tifa is like "it's so painful but as a family we can work things out."
Cloud is like "I suck so please don't bother with me..."

If we go by strength stat Barret is stronger than Tifa as well, though the rest of the party is weaker than her, which makes sense to me. Cloud hance SOLDIER enhancements, Barret's freaking gigantic, and Tifa knows martial arts. Cloud has a higher strength stat than Barret, which makes sense because the mixture of mako and Jenova cells increased Cloud's strength beyond that of a normal human. Still not sure why Cait Sith has an average strength stat, I'm beginning to suspect that that moogle doll is stuffed with bricks or rocks or something.

 

[Roger]

^
Zack was injured by Sephiroth and there was nothing in the games that says Mako treatment immobilized him as far as I remember. When Zack escaped the Shinra mansion there are still a lot of guards in Nibelheim.

I'm quite certain that Zack's wounds didn't take 4 years to heal and the researchers notes made it clear he was the only one in the mansion.

I'm sorry but "Tifa wanted to get herself killed" is asinine. Why didn't she just jump off the mountain if that was her plan?

And what exactly was her and Cloud going after Sephiroth? That was entirely personal. Aerith being there and saving the planet was secondary to Cloud. He wanted to find Sephiroth.

I ain't saying Cloud and Aerith made the decision for her. I'm saying her lifestyle wasn't one she would be proud off, she living off vengeance fumes alone before Cloud and the others came along after which she was able to change for the better.

Yes and when Tifa gets into a rut she gets out of it quickly and gets on with her life. When Cloud gets into a rut he barely functions.

Based on WHAT? When he was dying and had Sephiroth in head? You really think that's a even comparison?

Cloud was a grunt with confidence issues who has to be reassured by Zack. Someone who can't even show his face to the girl he loves because he is so ashamed of himself.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't hanging out with Zack on a daily basis. Yes, in Nibelheim, when he was around Tifa he had the problem, how exactly did he survive two years before he came to Nibelheim when he can't function as person without her?

These issues are what leads to his mako poisoning. If he were a stronger person mentally he would have made it through fine. Instead he had his mind shattered.

The other 12 non-SOLDIERS turned into Sephiroth Clones, forever. I wouldn't call that fine.

I'm not sure how you managed to build this totally backwards view of how the Cloud and Tifa dynamic works. The scenario you have built up is that Tifa can't seem to function without Cloud (or someone else) telling her what to do and having Denzel around before AC to take the burden off of her. Etc etc.

No, I haven't. I'm not saying she can't function. YOU'RE the one that goes out of his way to point out the business, which she wasn't alone nor was getting that much traffic and the kid that we are told was pulling his own weight. I don't see why you'd bring them up to shoe much Tifa is objectively better then Cloud.

She is the rock of the 7th Heaven family. The owner/operator of her second bar/restaurant. And she manages to be an Eco-terrorist and planet saver on occasion.

Yeah? And? You can be the rock of a family while still needing other people and without people not being physically capable of functioning as a person at all without your presence, jeez.

We're speaking about emotional strength. Yes, Cloud can function without Tifa technically but we're talking about the context of AC where all of them are carrying sins and mistakes from the past. Tifa is doing a lot better than Cloud in moving on. We can argue that indeed, Cloud had it worse than Tifa but he's shutting himself off from others.

And again, Tifa wasn't going to turn die and turn into a goey mess any day now in front of six year old girl and had a condition of which a symptom was depression. Taking AC as an example is ridiculously lopsided against Cloud, come on.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

The other 12 non-SOLDIERS turned into Sephiroth Clones, forever. I wouldn't call that fine.

Just gonna point out, those people in black robes? They were normal, unremarkable people from Nibelheim. They were SUPPOSED to get Mako poisoning and go loopy and helpless so that Jenova's cells in their body could take over and move them like puppets. To test the Jenova Reunion Theory, remember? Cloud actually went TOO FAR down and went catatonic to the point he couldn't function, he was literally worse than the others (except Zack of course). Right up until he met Tifa in Sector 7 and went a different kind of loopy withy Jenova's help, at which point the Reunion instinct finally had a chance to kick in.

So yeah, the other 12 turned into Sephiroth Clones forever (or rather until they dropped dead/were murdered by Sephiroth in the crater). But Cloud was initially worse than they were. Maybe if they'd had a bath in the Lifestream with someone as important to them as Tifa is to Cloud, they might've gotten better too.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Just gonna point out, those people in black robes? They were normal, unremarkable people from Nibelheim. They were SUPPOSED to get Mako poisoning and go loopy and helpless so that Jenova's cells in their body could take over and move them like puppets. To test the Jenova Reunion Theory, remember? Cloud actually went TOO FAR down and went catatonic to the point he couldn't function, he was literally worse than the others (except Zack of course). Right up until he met Tifa in Sector 7 and went a different kind of loopy withy Jenova's help, at which point the Reunion instinct finally had a chance to kick in.

So yeah, the other 12 turned into Sephiroth Clones forever (or rather until they dropped dead/were murdered by Sephiroth in the crater). But Cloud was initially worse than they were. Maybe if they'd had a bath in the Lifestream with someone as important to them as Tifa is to Cloud, they might've gotten better too.

Hell, the person they would've had to have help them would have to be Tifa, since she was the only citizen of Nibelheim left who wasn't a Sephiroth clone. She could've been fairly acquainted with at least one of them, since she seemed pretty popular in NIibelheim.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^That does not imply their memories and identity are tied entirely to her the way Cloud's were though.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm quite certain that Zack's wounds didn't take 4 years to heal and the researchers notes made it clear he was the only one in the mansion.

Yeah the mansion might not have guards inside it there were a lot of guards just outside it. Remember the mini mission in CC to defeat the troops before they drag Cloud away? And again, nothing in the game says that Mako poisoning immobilized it. It could have been other sedatives or restraints whatever.

I ain't saying Cloud and Aerith made the decision for her. I'm saying her lifestyle wasn't one she would be proud off, she living off vengeance fumes alone before Cloud and the others came along after which she was able to change for the better.

I think we already pointed out how she was being tormented by her past sins. Even if Cloud's arrival and the meeting with Aerith changed direction, it's because of her choice not because she was dragged into ito. They presented her another path, she chose to walk that way. They gave her an opportunity to change herself but it doesn't mean it's not her own merit that she changed for the better.

And again, Tifa wasn't going to turn die and turn into a goey mess any day now in front of six year old girl and had a condition of which a symptom was depression. Taking AC as an example is ridiculously lopsided against Cloud, come on.

What?

What was about the context of AC that I'm using against, yes against Cloud? I know how terrible and hopeless Geostigma is to Cloud and I did admit that Cloud had it worse than Tifa, but I think I made it clear that it's the coping mechanism we're talking about. Cloud was giving up and shutting himself away from his friends, not exactly an example of emotional strength. Yes, his situation may be hopeless but he was going down with it and had given up.

I don't get why this is ridiculous. Am I degrading his character? Isn't it a fact that "Tifa was the woman who knows him and supports the mentally weak side of him?" FFVII 10th Anniversary Tifa Profile I think (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[SirVival]

Just gonna point out, those people in black robes? They were normal, unremarkable people from Nibelheim. They were SUPPOSED to get Mako poisoning and go loopy and helpless so that Jenova's cells in their body could take over and move them like puppets. To test the Jenova Reunion Theory, remember? Cloud actually went TOO FAR down and went catatonic to the point he couldn't function, he was literally worse than the others (except Zack of course). Right up until he met Tifa in Sector 7 and went a different kind of loopy withy Jenova's help, at which point the Reunion instinct finally had a chance to kick in.

So yeah, the other 12 turned into Sephiroth Clones forever (or rather until they dropped dead/were murdered by Sephiroth in the crater). But Cloud was initially worse than they were. Maybe if they'd had a bath in the Lifestream with someone as important to them as Tifa is to Cloud, they might've gotten better too.

Oh wow... Your post just made me realise something.. One of the black cloaked "clones" is probably Cloud's mother? It would actually make sense!
How come I've never realised that before!

That is, of course, if the other games in FF7 universe didn't already open the curtain about her fate (I have no experience of anything besides original and AC). I don't remember it being mentioned in the original game though.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Actually, the original does a good job of implying that Cloud's mother died in the fire. In the original flashback, he rushes into her house to rescue her before slowly walking out, empty handed, and then doing like a full body sag with head shake. I'm not remembering the later, correct flashbacks very well atm but I seem to recall him being passed out just outside the house, sorta twitching? And he definitely mentions his mother among the things Sephiroth has taken from him in both the false and true memories of Nibelheim. So yeah, she dead. Still, could make for a horrific "What If?" fic

 

[SirVival]

Actually, the original does a good job of implying that Cloud's mother died in the fire. In the original flashback, he rushes into her house to rescue her before slowly walking out, empty handed, and then doing like a full body sag with head shake. I'm not remembering the later, correct flashbacks very well atm but I seem to recall him being passed out just outside the house, sorta twitching? And he definitely mentions his mother among the things Sephiroth has taken from him in both the false and true memories of Nibelheim. So yeah, she dead. Still, could make for a horrific "What If?" fic

Now that you mention it, I remember it too. But couldn't this full body sag with head shake imply that he couldn't find her? Or maybe it was too brutal inside for Cloud to even search thoroughly for her. Wouldn't be the first time in FF7-universe that somebody near-death would've been experimented on... But yeah, Cloud pretty much assumes her mother dead, she was quite unimportant in the whole story. I would definitely say there's a possibility that Cloud's mother was one of the clones, but then again, I do lack the most recent information.

I smell Vincentina

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^That does not imply their memories and identity are tied entirely to her the way Cloud's were though.

i was just saying that Tifa was really their only hope, and even then even she probably could barely help at all, being at most fairly acquainted with some number of them. They were pretty much doomed to perish from the start.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Danseru, I have a problem with you describing Tifa as an "angry" person, when she's actually cheerful and optimistic. Official sources continually refer to her as such, she helps encourage the rest of the party, and she can be seen smiling most of the time. Tifa may be vengeful, but that's not the same as being angry. If you want angry, just take a look at Barret, he's rather easily angered, and spends a lot of time arguing with people.

 

[Shadowfox]

Danseru, I have a problem with you describing Tifa as an "angry" person, when she's actually cheerful and optimistic. Official sources continually refer to her as such, she helps encourage the rest of the party, and she can be seen smiling most of the time. Tifa may be vengeful, but that's not the same as being angry.

I think that describing Tifa as 'angry' sounds fitting, at least during her career as a terrorist. She must have been plenty angry to go down that road in the first place. I think that anger played a major part in that time of her life, even though it not the sole thing that defined her, as she still remained gentle, kind-hearted, and somewhat optimistic towards her comrades, even during her terrorist days.

If you want angry, just take a look at Barret, he's rather easily angered, and spends a lot of time arguing with people.

I see that as Barret being more the argumentative and cantankerous type, instead of angry.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Danseru, I have a problem with you describing Tifa as an "angry" person, when she's actually cheerful and optimistic. Official sources continually refer to her as such, she helps encourage the rest of the party, and she can be seen smiling most of the time. Tifa may be vengeful, but that's not the same as being angry. If you want angry, just take a look at Barret, he's rather easily angered, and spends a lot of time arguing with people.

Well Case of Tifa. She's angry towards Shinra then she's angry towards Sephiroth.

Sephiroth was dispatched by Shinra to resolve this problem. He also killed her father. I couldn’t bear the hatred I had for Shinra and Sephiroth. That was why I joined AVALANCHE. Yes. It was the beginning of my own personal hatred. The slogans AVALANCHE used showing how they were anti-Shinra and anti-Mako were just what I needed to hide my true motive. But the many lives lost as sacrifices in saving the planet were too much. If all that was just for my own revenge, then…

Right after Sephiroth took Aerith’ life, she hadn’t grieved at all. She had been sad, but she channeled her sadness into anger and hatred for the enemy.

More accurately, it's hatred rather than anger.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Tifa has, as one of her most defining characteristics, difficulties expressing her feelings. Its why her last name is appropriate, Lockhart. Its not just her mushy lovey feelings she locks up in there. Anger, rage, and hatred get locked inside just as much. She looks motherly, compassionate, cheerful and supportive and she IS all those things... she's also a lethally powerful fighter with such a hard-on for revenge she willingly signs on to help blow up two mako reactors and thus kill many innocent people. That's anger. Trust me, I know anger when I see it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tifa has, as one of her most defining characteristics, difficulties expressing her feelings. Its why her last name is appropriate, Lockhart. Its not just her mushy lovey feelings she locks up in there. Anger, rage, and hatred get locked inside just as much. She looks motherly, compassionate, cheerful and supportive and she IS all those things... she's also a lethally powerful fighter with such a hard-on for revenge she willingly signs on to help blow up two mako reactors and thus kill many innocent people. That's anger. Trust me, I know anger when I see it.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's always surprised me when fans don't understand just how angry Tifa is. It's burning in her like one of those mine fires that smoulder away underground for years and years. You can't see it on the surface, but it's burning away inside. I'd even go so far as to say that maybe the reason she buries it inside her cheerful, supportive persona is because she's afraid its sheer destructive force might overwhelm her.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I won't deny that Tifa's angry at Shinra and Sephiroth, Cloud probably is too. But she's mostly a cheerful and optimistic person, rather than an angry one. And of course she has difficulty expressing her feelings, it's quite obvious in game, and official sources even say she has difficulty expressing her feelings. Cloud also seems to have this problem, especially in regard to Tifa.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, I think this is more of a semantics thing now than anything. What you're saying is basically that Tifa is a person who is angry, but not a naturally angry person? If so, yeah I can get behind that.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Ok, I think this is more of a semantics thing now than anything. What you're saying is basically that Tifa is a person who is angry, but not a naturally angry person? If so, yeah I can get behind that.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Barret's the probably only one who who could be considered the "naturally angry" type.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Barret's the probably only one who who could be considered the "naturally angry" type.

Not Cid?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Not Cid?

Nah, Cid's more rude than anything. Sure he's bitter and angry for most of the original game but that's because of his ruined dream. He noticeably softens up a little after he achieves his dream of going into space.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well looking back at my defense I think I wrote "Tifa has a lot of anger inside her" rather than "she's an angry person."

 

[Roger]

Just gonna point out, those people in black robes? They were normal, unremarkable people from Nibelheim.

I know, I was arguing that Cloud is at least at the level of normal, unremarkable person rather then what Vendel and Dansaru were talking him down too.

They were SUPPOSED to get Mako poisoning and go loopy and helpless so that Jenova's cells in their body could take over and move them like puppets. To test the Jenova Reunion Theory, remember? Cloud actually went TOO FAR down and went catatonic to the point he couldn't function, he was literally worse than the others (except Zack of course). Right up until he met Tifa in Sector 7 and went a different kind of loopy withy Jenova's help, at which point the Reunion instinct finally had a chance to kick in.

I dunno what you consider worse. Zack and Cloud communicated by carving messages on the glass in front of them. Just with that Cloud is already better of then a complete slave to Sephiroths will.

So yeah, the other 12 turned into Sephiroth Clones forever (or rather until they dropped dead/were murdered by Sephiroth in the crater). But Cloud was initially worse than they were. Maybe if they'd had a bath in the Lifestream with someone as important to them as Tifa is to Cloud, they might've gotten better too.

Cloud was already functioning better, and had outlived each and every single one of them when he entered the Lifestream. I mean, yeah Sephiroth killed a few but most just keel over and disintegrate.

And even then, the state he was in was a reaction to Zack's death and Zack's instructions. And moreover, still wanting to uphold to the promise he made to Tifa. Again, far from Tifa being the only thing that enables him to function as a person, Tifa was the one he had the biggest problem with prior to FFVII.

If he wasn't confronted with the death of his best friend the moment he woke up, and then instructed to take up a SOLDIER 1st' legacy and sword, and then dressed as SOLDIER First Class there after happened to run into the one person left alive that he felt so strongly about showing he made SOLDIER First Class, I very much doubt he'd used Jenova's abilities to copy Zack/Tifa's memories and taken on a false SOLDIER First Class identity.

I mean, having someone feeding him and taking care of him is the only reason he shook off the Makopoisoning in the first place, but a pretty extremely contrived sequence of events after he woke up was required to make him turn into the puppet that he was in FFVII.

I'd very much say that he better off after leaving his pod in Nibelheim then the Sephiroth clones after they were done with the experiment after much less exposure.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Cloud is above the level of an unremarkable person. Not only did he manage to only get skinned kness from a fall that put Tifa in a weeklong coma, he managed to defeat Sephiroth as a lowly Shinra grunt, which was before he even managed to get SOLDIER enhancements. That's hardly normal and unremarkable. He also seemed to be in better condition than the other clones after he woke up from his coma and Tifa found him. He was the only clone that didn't wear a black cloak and babble on about Sephiroth, Jenova, and the Reunion. He managed to retain his sense of individuality.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I know, I was arguing that Cloud is at least at the level of normal, unremarkable person rather then what Vendel and Dansaru were talking him down too.

Maybe it was just a big misunderstanding, I'm quite sure I wasn't arguing that Cloud is something useless without Tifa. I pointed out in my Tifa defense how Tifa believed in Cloud, how he could be someone great and capable of doing more than what he think he could. To be clear, for me, Cloud is not a normal, unremarkable person but a person who is mentally weak relative to his true potential.

Problem is that he needed the right push. When he fails the effect is amplified more than normal due to his mental weakness, Mako poisoning or Geostigma and he sinks lower. That's why I argued that he needed Tifa. If Cloud is at his lowest, he needs someone or something to pull him up to the point that he reaches his peak. And when Cloud is at his best self, he can do greater things than Tifa. So Cloud has the tendency to be either really weak or really strong.

At the Nibelheim incident, it was the anger towards Sephiroth because of what he did to Tifa, his mom and Nibelheim that drove him to unleash his potential. In the OG, arguably the Lifestream sequence, finding out his true self which actually stronger than the illusion he created. In AC, the dilly-dallying.

So I was just pointing out how Cloud needed Tifa to do the awesome things he was able to do but I never pointed out how he is incapable of doing anything without her. I'm not sure how I was bringing Cloud's character down with all of this.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Well looking back at my defense I think I wrote "Tifa has a lot of anger inside her" rather than "she's an angry person."

"Aerith seemed cheerful despite the horrible things, Tifa has a lot of anger inside her early in the story because of Shinra."
That's what you said, and it was supposed to contrast Tifa and Aerith when in fact Tifa was cheerful despite the horrible things as well. And every one seems to have anger inside of them because of Shinra, though Aerith, Cait Sith, and maybe Nanaki are probably the only ones without a lot of anger towards Shinra.
Cloud has anger towards Shinra for the exact same reasons as Tifa.
Barret has anger towards Shinra for the destruction of his hometown.
Aerith has anger towards Shinra for trying to kidnap her for their own greedy needs.
Nanaki has anger towards Shinra for capturing him and presumably subjecting him to horrible experimentation.
Cait Sith has anger towards Shinra for their carelessness towards the lives of the people.
Yuffie has anger towards Shinra for many other Wutai war related reasons.
Vincent has anger towards specifically Hojo of Shinra for his immoral actions.
Cid as anger towards Shinra(as well as Sierra) for ruining his dream.