Translation of the original japanese game project aka How to wind up flunkies

[DLPB]

Red XIII:
「それにティファ……オイラたちがクラウドだと思ってたのは……」
"And Tifa... we thought he was Cloud because..."

Tifa:
「……わかってる」
「だから確かめたいの。もう一度会いたいの」
"... I know."
"That's why I want to make sure. I want to see him one more time."

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It seems very strange that your translaions seem to be exact to the english version (even though it is a fact that the english version has a lot of problems), and cathys seem to be worded differently and fit well. Obviously there is a difference in opinion and I will need a 3rd person who has the game to see what they make of it. Then I will know once and for all..

But that scene

"And Tifa... we thought he was Cloud because..."

is very vague. If that is what it actually says, I do not like it at all. but it is good you are looking at the translation and I need someone else to now aswell. I do have a japanese guy in email and I will get to the bottom of it.

I cant trust ur source of cathys since 1 of you is definately wrong on a few things. So I will see what the 3rd has to say on some of them and let you know what they make of it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The clones are the same (clones happen to be identical). So that is also a poor translation, wouldnt u agree? Or will you argue that different is just ok in this context as well?

...In the 3 pages of this discussion, why the hell has no one spoken up and corrected this assertion? The "clones" or "copies" are not identical; they're just the poor survivors of the Nibelheim massacre, being mind controlled and manipulated by Sephiroth's will?

Seriously. You fuckers should've have said this ages ago. Flunkies make more sense because they are not literal copies or clones of Sephiroth. They're people being manipulated by Sephiroth's will. They *are* literally flunkies because they're just obediently following his orders. Furthermore, a Sephiroth Copy is not close to a real copy of Sephiroth at all. It's just a regular person who gets mako injections and Jenova cells.

So while you may be arguing its not perfectly in line with the literal Japanese translation, it actually makes storyline sense to call Sephiroth's copies, his "flunkies." They are not literal divisions or "selves" of Sephy.

 

[DLPB]

it actually makes storyline sense to call Sephiroth's copies, his "flunkies." They are not literal divisions or "selves" of Sephy.

The word is a poor choice. If it all made sense we wouldnt have 1 japanese translator changing the words and we wouldnt have numerous discussions about it on forums. The japanese version does not use the word gang/lackey/ it specifically says double or copy, a direct reference, according to our resident translator, to the black robes.

1 word not to use is flunkies. Most people don't even know what it means and I certainly had NO IDEA what it was referring to and nor did many others. Therefore, bottom line, the translation isnt fit for puprose in this case.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's rather subject though, to be honest. The fact that a translator decided to use a different word, doesn't automatically make it a poor choice. Translation is not only about capturing the meaning of a foreign sentence, it's also about making subjective choices about how to make the sentence positively readable for the intended audience.

Yeah, the Japanese uses the word double/copy, but that's because they are Sephiroth COPIES. Meaning, they are regular people who have Jenova cells and mako exposure, and thus are rendered mind controlled and Sephiroth's pawns/slaves. Now, in the translation of that storyline meaning, they made a choice to call them lackies because, that's what they are. The meaning was not lost. If anything, the meaning was emphasized. If they were just called copies, without any context to what "copies" meant in FFVII, it would confuse the reader/player.

I don't know how people don't know what the word "flunky" means. It's an 8th grade level word, and if they don't know it, that's what a dictionary is for. It's not that hard to understand.

 

[ForceStealer]

To be frank, I think you are allowing fanboyism to "cloud" your judgement. Back at qhimms it is common knowledge that the translation is poor and NEVER, on 5 forums, have I come across anyone arguing in favour of the flunkies line. It is obviously wrong.

I didn't say I was in favor of it, I said it was the correct usage. Just as spoony bard is technically correct but a bizarre word to use.

You have pushed words into my mouth. I said, the translating team were idiots. If you read it properly rather than seeing what you want to. Why you get it? I don't know. I don't think many people would have worked out flunkies means tatooed clones. If you think they are the same thing, you need a dictionary.

I misunderstood, I apologize, but I did not put words into your mouth. You said,

As someone who has played the game through countless times and looked into the subject, it is obvious.

Only a complete idiot could get "Sephiroth has many different flunkies"

instead of "Sephiroth can duplicate himself, remember"

I see what you mean now, but you made no mention of the translators. For someone demanding such clarity in this game, that was awfully unclear.

You are one of these people who would argue black is white aren't you

A prime example, I don't even know what that means.

The game makes a distinction in the japanese with the words double and copy/clone. Flunky is incorrect whether you like it or not.

I know the game does, but does Cloud? Just like Mako said, copies would be even less descriptive at that point of the game. The only thing the player really knows is that these dudes follow Sephiroth.

1 word not to use is flunkies. Most people don't even know what it means and I certainly had NO IDEA what it was referring to and nor did many others. Therefore, bottom line, the translation isnt fit for puprose in this case.

So its poor word choice because YOU didn't know what it means?

"lots of different flunkies"

The clones are the same (clones happen to be identical). So that is also a poor translation, wouldnt u agree? Or will you argue that different is just ok in this context as well?

That's simply nitpicking. And the clones aren't all the same. They're people just like Cloud whose minds have been overtaken by Jenova/Sephiroth. So yes, under the cloaks they are different.

I don't know why you're being so defensive though, at no point did I attack you or your project, I was simply warning to be careful because "transliterations" are not always the best translations. PUlling every line word for word from the Japanese would, at best, make it a lot more boring and, at worst, make it even more confusing for sayings and such that don't have direct corollaries in English.

For example, when Cloud stabs Sephiroth in the Nibelheim reactor, FF7 had him say, "Mom...Tifa...my town...give it back." And removes the sword. I much preferred that delivery to the Last Order subs direct translation of "Give back my mother, Tifa, and my hometown!" or something similar.

That makes him sound like a whiny little bitch when in actuality he was furious, which the not-directly-translated line captures better.

Fanboyism? Fanboy of what? the script? I can rattle off plenty of errors more significant than the ones you're saying are COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL when they really aren't that hard to figure out. I was simply trying to say be careful.

 

[DLPB]

I know the game does, but does Cloud? Just like Mako said, copies would be even less descriptive at that point of the game. The only thing the player really knows is that these dudes follow Sephiroth.

I don't know how I am failing to make you understand that when the japanese version mentions the words copy and double, and the NA doesn't, it is a translation error. And certainly, shoving a word like flunky there is not right at all.

So its poor word choice because YOU didn't know what it means?

No, because nearly everyone I have spoke to has had issue with it, on 5 different forums. And because I wouldnt have brought it up if it made sense. Again, copy/double is not the same as flunkie.

For example, when Cloud stabs Sephiroth in the Nibelheim reactor, FF7 had him say, "Mom...Tifa...my town...give it back." And removes the sword. I much preferred that delivery to the Last Order subs direct translation of "Give back my mother, Tifa, and my hometown!" or something similar.

Thats because that is what the original translation says. He mentions his his mother and home town. Again, this was not shown in the NA version because it was a poor translation:

he says

{CLOUD}
“You took away my family,
You took away my town!!”



.

Although mother and hometown woudl work just as well. Regardless, this is again the NA translation. But that isnt different AT ALL. It is the same thing wrote differently. Flunky isnt....

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't know how I am failing to make you understand that when the japanese version mentions the words copy and double, and the NA doesn't, it is a translation error.

If the change is deliberately made, it's not a translation error.
Especially since I thought it was fairly obvious the line refers to the cloaked Sephiroth copies.

 

[DLPB]

If the change is deliberately made, it's not a translation error.
Especially since I thought it was fairly obvious the line refers to the cloaked Sephiroth copies.

well I don't think it is obvious at all, esp since a lot of people will be unfamilar with the word anyway.

But If the japanese version specifically states copy/clone and double this should be reflected.

i.e. "Sephiroth has the tattooed clones....it is nothing for him to throw their lives away"

that would be more to the japanese text, surely??

How exactly does that scene read from the japanese anyway? How would you get copy or double into that sentence from the japanese translation. because you certainly wouldnt use flunky.

 

[Strangelove]

It seems very strange that your translaions seem to be exact to the english version (even though it is a fact that the english version has a lot of problems)

I'm probably the last person who would disagree that the English version (of this and other things) has problems, but maybe this line just isn't one of them.

But that scene

"And Tifa... we thought he was Cloud because..."

is very vague.

Unless you're going to add stuff that isn't there originally, then I'm afraid vague is all you're going to get.

Again, it's dangerous to simply take a conflicting translation as being correct, without being able to compare them. You might convince yourself something is right when it isn't.

Cathy's translation, from what I've looked at, isn't really a more improved translation compared to the official English one. She misses out words or sentences in several places, and some of her changes don't really seem too good (like 'psychic strength'). It doesn't seem of a massively higher standard compared to the English script, and seems to create confusion of its own. Characters like Cait Sith lose any individuality they had in their speech (which might be a fault it shares with the English script).

For example, when Cloud stabs Sephiroth in the Nibelheim reactor, FF7 had him say, "Mom...Tifa...my town...give it back." And removes the sword. I much preferred that delivery to the Last Order subs direct translation of "Give back my mother, Tifa, and my hometown!" or something similar.

That makes him sound like a whiny little bitch when in actuality he was furious, which the not-directly-translated line captures better.

Actually, the FFVII one sounds more like a direct translations (following the Japanese order of 「母さんを…　ティファを…　村を返せ！」). It's the LO one that doesn't seem as direct, changing the syntax to follow the English standard instead.

 

[Tetsujin]

well I don't think it is obvious at all

How is it not obvious? There's only one group of people who could be considered flunkies/underlings/helpers etc.

I'm probably the last person who would disagree that the English version (of this and other things) has problems, but maybe this line just isn't one of them.

^This.

There's other stuff that was more confusing. Like that "So that's how you fooled them" bit we cleared up a while ago...

 

[Strangelove]

^This.

There's other stuff that was more confusing. Like that "So that's how you fooled them" bit we cleared up a while ago...

You should all take my agreeing with the English script as some kind of apocalypic sign

And that thread needs to make a comeback:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30

 

[ForceStealer]

hitoshura, quick question, when referring to Sephiroth clones/copies, does FF7 use コピ like Crisis Core or 分身が?

Because if they do in fact use コピ, I submit that "tattooed clones" would be less correct than flunkies. Because that would mean that Cloud didn't refer to them as Sephiroth copies. As well he shouldn't, because at that point in the game nobody know they're clones yet!

The player knows IF and ONLY IF they checked the letter on Tifa's desk, which you can't count on the player to have done.

 

[Strangelove]

hitoshura, quick question, when referring to Sephiroth clones/copies, does FF7 use コピ like Crisis Core or 分身が?

コピー if it's by someone who knows what they are (like Hojo). 分身 was just the word used in this scene, rather than one for them in general, I think.

 

[DLPB]

The fact that a translator decided to use a different word, doesn't automatically make it a poor choice.

If the word does not fulfil the equivelant then it is a bad choice. The japanese version states copies/clones. The player KNOWS that the black robes are clones (if they had paid attention). Therefore stating

"Sephiroth can just use one of those clones" is MUCH more accurate than suggesting sephiroth has a few tag alongs from nowhere (which flunky suggests)

I can't understand where the argument is here.

The player knows IF and ONLY IF they checked the letter on Tifa's desk, which you can't count on the player to have done.

Thats tough. The information is there. And you are assuming more information wasnt missed in the translation to NA

------

sorry for double post. Force of habit. My forum automatically corrects it/

You should still merge them after you realize you do it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A flunky isn't just a tag along from nowhere. It's a servant that goes around doing the bidding of their master. Calling them just straight up clones could work, but "flunkies" works just as well because it captures the meaning AND further emphasizes the point that Sephiroth's black cloaked followers are his servants and aren't literal clones of Sephiroth. Which hadn't been fully discussed or revealed at that point.

Again, it's not automatically a bad choice because they used a different word. Professional translating doesn't just mean copying and pasting the direct translation. If that's all it takes, you might as well use babelfish. You also have to make it readable and within the context of the narrative and also the audience you're presenting it too. All you've done is present a subjective opinion on "flunkies" being a bad choice. It still captures the actual meaning and point that Sephiroth's cloaked followers obey him and would sacrifice themselves to get the black materia. No meaning or intent was loss with that choice.

And yeah, you should expect your audience to get up and look for the info, but you can't also neglect presenting the story in a clear, and concise manner. It's also the responsibility of the storyteller to make the story understandable and within proper context. Even if the info is there, it has to be easily understood within the frame of the storytelling, not buried or hidden.

 

[DLPB]

A flunky isn't just a tag along from nowhere. It's a servant that goes around doing the bidding of their master.

This does not *specifically* imply the black robed clones like the japanese version *DOES*. There is nothing in the word flunky to make certain that the player knows what is being referred. If the japanese version uses the word clone/copy, it is a mistake for that not to be used in the translation. You don't start the game and meet barret for him to say "yo, we are headin over there" instead of "our targets xxx reactor"

anyway I asked a question and it was answered. Once I have verfied it, then the new line will be

"Sephiroth has many of those cloaked clones (or variations), remember? it is nothing for him to throw their lives away."

that is that settled

 

[Tetsujin]

This does not imply the black robed clones like the japanese version DOES.

It does, because this is the only group that could possibly fall into the category of being Sephiroth's flunkies.

Haha, flunkies, such a funny-sounding word.
Now I wonder what did the German version call them? I just can't remember it anymore...=/

 

[Ryushikaze]

I implied them well enough the first time I played the game. Seriously, man, there's changing the meaning of a scene, than there's nitpicking over colloquialisms.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who else would they be talking about? There's only one group of people who are following the bidding of Sephiroth and chasing after his form across the globe. That's a rather absurd statement. Anyone paying attention to the game would know, that the flunkies referred to, are the Sephiroth Copies. You're splitting hairs.

And again, it's not a mistake. It's a choice. Translating isn't just copy-pasta. It's also changing the word choices in Japanese to proper english equivalents that will capture the meaning while also making the text readable and something that isn't just spun out of babelfish. If you just translate everything literally, word for word, it comes out stilted, awkward and trashy.

 

[ForceStealer]

Hojo reveals the whole copy thing later, as hitoshura just clarified for me, Cloud does NOT refer to them as Sephiroth copies. Therefore, it would be an incorrect translation.

That's tough? You're the one making such a huge argument wanting the game to be clearer, and you're just going to assume that the player read something that they had no obligation (nor were they particularly encouraged) to read? I guess you'd just put Yuffie and Vincent into the final scene regardless of whether the player actually got them?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

As much shit as I give FF7 for being almost hilariously incomprehensible at parts, I never had any issue with this particular line.

 

[Strangelove]

hitoshura, quick question, when referring to Sephiroth clones/copies, does FF7 use コピ like Crisis Core or 分身が?

Going back to this: I searched through the script, and there are only two uses of 分身. One was this line by Cloud, and the other was from Rufus in reference to Cloud being Sephiroth's [whatever you want to call it], during the scene in Junon with Tifa and Barret about to be executed.

But コピー is the proper name for subjects of Hojo's experiment.

 

[DLPB]

Haha, flunkies, such a funny-sounding word.

I think you will be hard pressed to find any one from any othr forum agreeing that that word was correct. There is no italian translation for example, and there is no way they would even know what a flunkie is.

Now, I need this straight once and for all.

Does japanese mention Clone/copy

if yes, then I will

If no, I won't.

So which is it gonna be?

 

[ForceStealer]

hito just said it doesn't, it uses 分身, which means double. But double isn't used for Sephiroth copies.

What was the word used when Barret calls Cloud Sephiroth's shadow a few times? Was it shadow? (陰, though I kinda find that hard to believe)

I think you will be hard pressed to find any one from any othr forum agreeing that that word was correct.

And all these other forums, what do they know about the Japanese script? How do they know what's correct. I think I'd be hard-presed to find someone who played the game and did not know who Cloud was talking about.

 

[DLPB]

hito just said it doesn't, it uses 分身, which means double. But double isn't used for Sephiroth copies.

What was the word used when Barret calls Cloud Sephiroth's shadow a few times? Was it shadow? (陰, though I kinda find that hard to believe)

so how does double fit in?? How on earth does that fit ?