(Un)Official FFVII Tier List

The Adept

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Justice D. Zac
I think people are underestimating Jenova a bit. She is an entity that travels through space on a lifeless rock and survives crashing onto planets and is capable of destroying thing. Not to mention, she can absorb it's knowlegde and infect people with it's virus which is much more deady than Sephiroth's. Jenova is in a way immortal, she cannot die from flesh wounds and has regeneration on a cellular level. Everything Sephiroth can do, she can do better. Mother knows best.

My Tier listing:

1. Jenova/Minerva : Jenova has a planet level destructive capacity and durability. Minerva is the embodiment of life itself and fought Jenova to a stalemate. Both are the source of power for the strongest people in FF7.

2. Sephiroth: Closest thing to Jenova, stated to be the strongest by creators many times. Has many hax abilities and strong willpower. Even his Crisis Core appearance was slicing through the Mako canon like it was butter.

3. Chaos Vincent/Omega Weiss: They both breached the atmosphere in seconds and their final collision created an explosion the size of a country that sent shockwaves across the entire planet.

4. Cloud: I put him here because he does not have the destructive capabilities of Chaos/Omega/Sephiroth. He is physically and mentally on par with Sephiroth though. The only reason he beated Sephiroth in AC was because Sephiroth was being arrogant and didn't crush Cloud from the start.

5. Zack: What can I say? He was easily dodgin machine gun fire from all directions, cutting missiles in half, deafting Genesis Avatar, and almost defeating an entire army armed with guns and helicopters. Note, there's a huge gap between Cloud and Zack though.

6. Genesis/Angeal: Genesis and Angeal were on par with a Crisis Core Sephiroth. Both had been surpassed by Zack. From speculation, Genesis has potential to becaome equal to Jenova.

7. Vincent/Weiss: Not much to say, both can easily dodge bullets and take down helicopters.

8. The Tviets: They're the strongest of the Deepground Soldiers which are stronger than regular Soldiers. All of them lost to base Vincent.

9. Tifa and Kadaj's Gang: Tifa is slightly above Loz physically, he just blitzed her with that one attack that leaves a blue trail. The only reason they stood a chance against Cloud at all was because he was nerfed emotionally and physically. He stomped on them when he was cured.

10. Avalanche: They're all superhuman, being able to survive falls off skycrapers and such.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Everything Jenova is, Sephiroth absorbed and made part of himself thanks to his vastly superior will. Beyond that Sephiroth made his own disease, he was gonna sail the universe and crash into things too and he mostly took over the Lifestream for a while in AC. He>Jenova

Anyway

1. Sephiroth
2. Cloud
3. Genesis
4. Zack
5. Vincent
6. Weiss
7. Nero
8. Rosso
9. Azul
10. Angeal
11. Shelke
12. AVALANCHE
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Everything Jenova is, Sephiroth absorbed and made part of himself thanks to his vastly superior will. Beyond that Sephiroth made his own disease, he was gonna sail the universe and crash into things too and he mostly took over the Lifestream for a while in AC. He>Jenova

Yeah but that means that there is something special about him other than his Jenova cells. Hojo and Lucrecia were just regular humans, its only because of Jenova that he has his power.

When he fell into the lifestream in the OG, it was the fact he had Jenova cells that allowed him to survive all that time, absorbing information. So it could be argued that that knowledge allowed him to usurp Jenova.

Which is all well and good, except that he had already lived 25+ years with Jenova inside him, from birth. Surely by then Jenova was so much a part of him that he couldn't then just control it himself.

I'm not saying that what you say isn't true. I'm just saying that the games creators really need to come up with a plausible explanation. I really just don't get it.

If I add water to juice I'm going to get a watered down juice that isn't as strong. I'm no geneticist, but why should Sephiroth be any different? :monster:
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Yeah but that means that there is something special about him other than his Jenova cells. Hojo and Lucrecia were just regular humans, its only because of Jenova that he has his power.

When he fell into the lifestream in the OG, it was the fact he had Jenova cells that allowed him to survive all that time, absorbing information. So it could be argued that that knowledge allowed him to usurp Jenova.

Which is all well and good, except that he had already lived 25+ years with Jenova inside him, from birth. Surely by then Jenova was so much a part of him that he couldn't then just control it himself.

I'm not saying that what you say isn't true. I'm just saying that the games creators really need to come up with a plausible explanation. I really just don't get it.

If I add water to juice I'm going to get a watered down juice that isn't as strong. I'm no geneticist, but why should Sephiroth be any different? :monster:

Doesn't the whole "the Lifestream can't take you because of Jenova cells" thing only come from Lucretia? I mean, that may have been true in the original but in the Compilation, Zack, Angeal, Hollander, Lazard, Gillian all the Genesis clones and most of Deepground all got consumed by the Lifestream didn't they? They retconned that fact already. Jenova cells don't keep you save at all now, Lucretia is frozen inside crystal so that explains her sticking around. What kept Sephiroth save hasn't been answered, but there's no reason for it to have anything to do with Jenova left.
 
Eww, no way.

1.The Goddamn Batman
2. Optimus Prime
3. Link from Zelda Series



Fixed.
:awesomonster:

What's he going to do, send his fairy to whine Chief to death?

obligatory
PrettyCoolGuy.png
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
>chief readies his weapon
>link travels back in time and makes sure his parents never get together
>battle is now a complete moot point because he doesn't even exist

everything went better than expected
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
>chief readies his weapon
>link travels back in time and makes sure his parents never get together
>battle is now a complete moot point because he doesn't even exist

everything went better than expected

What's gonna stop Chief from going right after him? NOT A GODDAMN THING.

Link is small time.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Doesn't the whole "the Lifestream can't take you because of Jenova cells" thing only come from Lucretia? I mean, that may have been true in the original but in the Compilation, Zack, Angeal, Hollander, Lazard, Gillian all the Genesis clones and most of Deepground all got consumed by the Lifestream didn't they? They retconned that fact already. Jenova cells don't keep you save at all now, Lucretia is frozen inside crystal so that explains her sticking around. What kept Sephiroth save hasn't been answered, but there's no reason for it to have anything to do with Jenova left.

Oh right...I didn't know all that :lol:

So really that goes back to my previous point. What makes Sephiroth so special? Just his 'will'? That's just a personality trait that anyone could have.

Eh...its all giving me a headache. Personally I think Jenova was getting what it wanted either way, I don't think it cared about Sephiroth becoming a god or whatever. I don't even think it 'cares' about anything full stop, other than its own survival and the continuation of its cells.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
So Sephiroth was completely unsurprised that a seemingly defeated Cloud suddenly came at him stronger than ever? he totally predicted this? Really? Then why didn't he do something about it.

Obviously.

Considering when he was dashing full speed and two handed he had is sword over his hea, and when Cloud rose to meet him his sword was already in-strike.

Yes, he did do something about It, he swung at Cloud.

Notice when Sephiroth is dashing his sword was above his head.

When Cloud meets him, his sword meets Cloud half-way.

Meaning he swung at Cloud, double handed at full burst.

Who blocked him and then pushed him backwards.

Besides, Omnislash ver.6 is much stronger than Omnislash (Obivously), thereforeeven though Sephiroth can drive back Cloud during Omnislash, he can't do the same during Omnislash ver.6. I made no contradiction.

Cloud didn't gather any energy when he pushed Sephiroth back in that instance.

You can clearly see he gathers energy to his sword later on.

Cloud pushed Sephiroth back with no energy burst whatsoever, It was completely plain strenght.

Which falls very well with the creator's opinion on they're even power levels..when Cloud goes a bit more, he will push back Sephiroth, and when Sephiroth tries a bit more, he will push back Cloud. They're even on physical standards.

For example:



3:17 onwards.

Cloud legitimately outpower Sephiroth in a sword-lock.

3:34 onwards.

Cloud legitimately forces Sephiroth to dodge his downwards slash that produced fire.

And the fire producing is also a point into the direction of they're rivalry.

"Only the places where Sephiroth cut through were burning because those points were where all his power gathered before being scattered." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

That's a trait only ever given to Cloud and Sephiroth in AC, which supports the quote that says they are physicaly equal.

Also, in regards to draw slash. ACC was made post CC, and draw slash is still not present.

I doubt they would waste money trying to animate that, when they wanted to focus on pure sword skill. Sephiroth only used that once in CC, and It was weaker than his full-power slashes, It would be illogical to use It on Cloud, who could more than likely shrug it off. Considering it only has better range, and was easily broken by Genesis, Cloud and Sephiroth were always face-to-face, the ability would be useless.

Besides, It's obvious ACC Sephiroth's slashes are MUCH more powerfull than any shockwave CC Sephiroth could produce(since he didn't burn things like AC Cloud and Seph).

Cloud also didn't use any of his limits during the battle before he got exhausted(which we saw very little of, but half of Midgar was burning because of It).

But It's obvious they were going physicaly all out.

Second, watch octaslash in Crisis Core again. As he's attacking Zack in the air he becomes surrounded by spirit energy, and when he dives down on Zack a wave of spirit energy launches outwards. What Sephiroth uses on Cloud is not Octalsash, its just a series of sword strikes meant to cripple Cloud so Sephiroth can finish him at his leisure.

All he gets in CC is a small greenish glow. But the ability in AC looks exactly like the slash(save for the glow, which is like Tifa's limits, which she used bu had no glow either, just like barret).

Strangely enough only Cloud had the glow in AC, and some of his limits didn't have the glow at all.

Heck, look at his stance before cloud Omnislashes, It's the stance of the Octaslash. It's more than likely that he used Octaslash to parry the Omnisalsh(but it was strictly parrying, considering he could only stand there and take It) but simply lacked the glow like anyone besides Cloud when limiting in AC.

And It fits with the creator's opnion that they were, again, on even terms and Seph needs to rise up a step to be beyond Cloud.

Now, as for this stance buisness. Sephiroth and Cloud have both taken stances repeatedly across the whole fight. Do you mean to tell me that they were raising their power each time they did that? In a fight lasting 12 hours? So what, they started with only like a 10th of their power or something?

That's a good way to put It.

It's clear when they enter a stance they're preparing to umleash more strenght.

For instance they both entered stances before going full-out on the falling debris.

No one starts a battle going full-out.

Sephiroth taking that stance shows that he was preparing to engage Cloud in combat, but it does not show that he was using some sort of limit break that just happened to be invisible. Sephiroth outfought Cloud plain and simple.

No, It shows that Sephiroth was clearly in preparation for something big.

Sephiroth wouldn't be able to outfight Cloud without steping up a bit like Cloud does when he Omnislashes, look into my first points, Cloud was outstrenghtening him without any limits more than twice in the fight.

My theory is completely supported by the creator's opinion, btw.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/119tee.jpg/

Cloud and Sephiroth were equals up until Cloud became completely tired. Evident by how he could outstrenght Sephiroth on several ocassions of the fight.

Meaning when Cloud has to step above the normal, so does Seph.

As It was clear he was preparing to handle the attack, he braced himself and entered a stance.

Besides, this Sephiroth was empowered by the entire Negative Lifestream, which was covering Midgar at the time, he wouldn't need to glow when all his spiritual power was surrounding the city.


Now back to FFVII. Please keep in mind the one-on-one in the lifestream takes placeafter Sephiroth's form is torn apart. Its not unreasonable to assume that Sephiroth might not be at hist best.

His spirit form was undamaged, this was stated in Maiden.

Cloud entered astral form and defeated his spirit in a spiritual battle in the afterlife.

That's basically what happened, not only is he Seph's rival in physical combat, but in existential force as well.

But lets suppose your right. Cloud was stronger. In that case TK absolutely can't be based on spirit energy in the way you say it is.

Sephiroth completely restrains not just Cloud, but every single other member of Avalanche, rendering them helpless and torturing them for several moments before they escape.

You are talking about FFVII Cloud.

AC Cloud is a whole new beast all-toguether, Sephiroth and Vincent both stated that Cloud was the only thing left that would be able to stop Seph's apocalypse, the rest of the party really made no difference.

Besides, in ACC Sephiroth is stronger than he was before. While the same is true of Cloud, and I'm sure the increase is a large one since even Sephiroth commented on it, I find it hard to believe that Cloud has increased his strength to the point where he is superior to Himself plus every member of Avalanche from two years ago.

It's actually very resonable that Cloud became that powerfull.

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/vincent.php

Vincent(who is in full control of Chaos, FYI) admits that he dosen't want anyone to interfere because he thinks only Cloud has the power to tackle with Seph(something Sephiroth stated himself).

So yea, teh movie does lead one to believe that.

Now, the assumptiont hatif Sephiroth could use it, he would. This isn't necesarily true. Keep in mind Sephiroth wanted to establish himself as the superior swordsman. Simply using TK coupled with a decapitation does not achieve that.Nor does it make Cloud suffer, or crush his resolve and fill him with despair, it doesn't humiliate him. All of these are things Sephiroth wants to do to Cloud before he kills him.

Sephiroth wanted Cloud dead from the first moment of combat. he strikes to kill with each attack.

Heck, mid-battle he almost decapitates Cloud.

And if it would've worked, he would have used It, considering he was failing to overpower Cloud through sheer physical force, becoming frustrated and losing his smirk, I'd think he would've used It if it would have any effect.

Now, in regards to his wing. Sephiroth using that wing to remind Cloud of his past pain makes no sense. First off, Sephiroth ahs never had that wing in front of Cloud before this point. Second, Sephiroth is clearly refferencing when he stabbed Cloud at Nibelheim. So using the wing as a reminder of that doesn't work.

You don't get It. The theme of that scene is Cloud remembering everything that has to do with Sephiroth, wing included.

Sephiroth had that wing out as Safer Sephiroth remember? Cloud would remember that.

CC showed us that they have no boost in power, and all they are is a symbol of Jenova's cells. Gast had a wing, and It gave him no actuall boost in power.

Why didn't Genesis sprout his while fighting Sephiroth in the mako cannon? He was clearly going all out, but he merely uses his wing to fly.

So the thing is purely decorative.

Now regarding the teleporting thing. If Sephiroth in the middle of combat finds his speed insufficient to get the job done, why not use teleportation? He was able to catch the part completely off-guard that way in FFVII. Why not do it here? He could end the fight quite easily.

Cloud reacted to Sephiroth's remnants closing in at him from both sides and has reacted to lightning and surprise attacks.

Sephiroth could teleport near him but there is a delay on the instant of teleportation and striking speed, Cloud wouldn't be take out so easily.

Heck, at one point in the fight, Sephiroth appeared in Cloud's sight out of nowhere, ready to strike and Cloud simply dodged.


And it is logical that Sephiroth would restrain his abilities if he wanted to prove that he's the better swordsman. The whole reasons he wanted this fight to happen is because Cloud injured his pride. Sephiroth wants to prove that he is the better warrior, he wants to beat Cloud blade to blade. He has a whole host of power he could have easily used otherwise.

That isn't logical with Sephiroth.

He was failing to overpower Cloud by sheer force, he had to tire Cloud out for 12+ hours.

I would think, in the fight where we saw almost nothing of and burned half of Midgar(which we never saw how it happened, but it did), he would've used his powers while he was getting frustrated(which he was, he even lost his smirk).

Now, as for your last statement. I can't agree that they are equal in strength. The evidence I ahve seen simply does not support that. However, I can agree they are equal in skill, and that Cloud's reflexes and speed are good enough to keep up with Sephiroth. In addition, I will concede that Cloud can surpass Sephiroth's strength briefly. Not all the time. But at times. Sephiroth still has the edge, but Cloud can gain momentaryadvantadges when his strength peaks, or when his spirit energy align with his physical strength.

I might agree that Sephiroth was holding back some of his haxxed abilities such as Telekinesis and teleportation, but he was clearly going all-out physicaly, as to the point where he got frustrated he couldn't overpower Cloud.

And how could tehy not be equals in physical prowess?



3:17 onwards.

Cloud legitimately outpower Sephiroth in a sword-lock.

3:34 onwards.

Cloud legitimately forces Sephiroth to dodge his downwards slash that produced fire.

7:50 onwards.

Cloud legitimately gets up and not only overpowers Sephiroth's incoming strike, but sends him flying.

This would'nt have been possible were they not equals in physical power

And conviniently, the creator's agree with me that for the duration of they're fight, they fought as equals.

So they aren't equal, but Cloud is definetely up there high enough to constitute a real threat to Sephiroth. I also do aree that Sephiroth's endless staminais one of his biggest advantadges.

I'm not exactly saying Cloud = Sephiroth, because Sephiroth > Cloud.

What I'm saying is Clouds's physical power = Sephiroth's. which the fight clearly shows us.

And his existential spirit force is also at least equal to his in AC.

Sephiroth however has other abilities(like infinite stamina) that would make him stronger.

I went back and double-checked the lighting after Cloud beats Sephiroth. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious but it really looks the same. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but the lighting and clouds (pun not intended) just look the same to me. Theres certainly more to the fight than we witness, but not 12 hours worth IMO. It seems more likely Cloud was just unconcious overnight, and it took until morning for everyone to go to the church after Aerith called them/ for him to actually be put there by Aerith to wake up.

Which would make sesne. Being stabbed and slashed repeatedly, violently slammed into shit, shot, and blown up, would tend to keep somebody down for awhile, even if they do have a dead woman with superpowers to look after them.

Makes more sense for the fight anyway. With bahamut Sin it makes sense it took 2 hours. Its a bunch fo people fighting a heavily armoured dragon that their weapons don't seem to hurt much. Once Cloud showed up with enough strength to hurt it the fight ended in a few minutes.

In the case of Cloud vs. Sephiroth its a bit different. its just two dudes who hate each others guts fighting each other. It becomes less a battle of attrition like it is with bahamut, and more a contest of skill and strength IMO.

The difference is that you can see the sun low on the horizon when Kadaj is beat.

Meaning it was sunrise, like 5'o clock.

It was at the same time Aerith called the kids to go to the church, where they all rushed out running to the church, and It was still morning then. Meaning they arrived at the church somewhere before 7, before Cloud woke up.

Now, you are speculating that they all waited 12 hours inside the church for Cloud to wake up, sleeping there overnight(it was alot of people) which is pretty unlikely.

And Cloud and Sephiroth had an all-out war, between the two strongest being in FFVII, that destroyed more than half of Midgar by burning It with swords.

It's not surprising that a fight longer than the car chase, Bahamut and Kadaj's fight with Cloud(which all laster 2 hours each) would last much longer.


So...do we understand ourselves now?

I'm just aguing that Sephiroth and Cloud are equal on physical terms only(save for stamina), Sephiroth might not have used his special abilities as you said, but Cloud did fight Sephiroth's strongest version in a physical brawl equally for 12 hours before getting tired. That alone along with other things such as burning buildings easily puts him at second strongest.

So why don't we just agree to that and call It a day? It's a real pain-in-the-ass having to write these essays.
 
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Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
Obviously.

Considering when he was dashing full speed and two handed he had is sword over his hea, and when Cloud rose to meet him his sword was already in-strike.

Yes, he did do something about It, he swung at Cloud.

Notice when Sephiroth is dashing his sword was above his head.

When Cloud meets him, his sword meets Cloud half-way.

Meaning he swung at Cloud, double handed at full burst.

Who blocked him and then pushed him backwards.



Cloud didn't gather any energy when he pushed Sephiroth back in that instance.

You can clearly see he gathers energy to his sword later on.

Cloud pushed Sephiroth back with no energy burst whatsoever, It was completely plain strenght.

Which falls very well with the creator's opinion on they're even power levels..when Cloud goes a bit more, he will push back Sephiroth, and when Sephiroth tries a bit more, he will push back Cloud. They're even on physical standards.

For example:



3:17 onwards.

Cloud legitimately outpower Sephiroth in a sword-lock.

3:34 onwards.

Cloud legitimately forces Sephiroth to dodge his downwards slash that produced fire.

And the fire producing is also a point into the direction of they're rivalry.

"Only the places where Sephiroth cut through were burning because those points were where all his power gathered before being scattered." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

That's a trait only ever given to Cloud and Sephiroth in AC, which supports the quote that says they are physicaly equal.



I doubt they would waste money trying to animate that, when they wanted to focus on pure sword skill. Sephiroth only used that once in CC, and It was weaker than his full-power slashes, It would be illogical to use It on Cloud, who could more than likely shrug it off. Considering it only has better range, and was easily broken by Genesis, Cloud and Sephiroth were always face-to-face, the ability would be useless.

Besides, It's obvious ACC Sephiroth's slashes are MUCH more powerfull than any shockwave CC Sephiroth could produce(since he didn't burn things like AC Cloud and Seph).

Cloud also didn't use any of his limits during the battle before he got exhausted(which we saw very little of, but half of Midgar was burning because of It).

But It's obvious they were going physicaly all out.



All he gets in CC is a small greenish glow. But the ability in AC looks exactly like the slash(save for the glow, which is like Tifa's limits, which she used bu had no glow either, just like barret).

Strangely enough only Cloud had the glow in AC, and some of his limits didn't have the glow at all.

Heck, look at his stance before cloud Omnislashes, It's the stance of the Octaslash. It's more than likely that he used Octaslash to parry the Omnisalsh(but it was strictly parrying, considering he could only stand there and take It) but simply lacked the glow like anyone besides Cloud when limiting in AC.

And It fits with the creator's opnion that they were, again, on even terms and Seph needs to rise up a step to be beyond Cloud.



That's a good way to put It.

It's clear when they enter a stance they're preparing to umleash more strenght.

For instance they both entered stances before going full-out on the falling debris.

No one starts a battle going full-out.



No, It shows that Sephiroth was clearly in preparation for something big.

Sephiroth wouldn't be able to outfight Cloud without steping up a bit like Cloud does when he Omnislashes, look into my first points, Cloud was outstrenghtening him without any limits more than twice in the fight.

My theory is completely supported by the creator's opinion, btw.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/119tee.jpg/

Cloud and Sephiroth were equals up until Cloud became completely tired. Evident by how he could outstrenght Sephiroth on several ocassions of the fight.

Meaning when Cloud has to step above the normal, so does Seph.

As It was clear he was preparing to handle the attack, he braced himself and entered a stance.

Besides, this Sephiroth was empowered by the entire Negative Lifestream, which was covering Midgar at the time, he wouldn't need to glow when all his spiritual power was surrounding the city.




His spirit form was undamaged, this was stated in Maiden.

Cloud entered astral form and defeated his spirit in a spiritual battle in the afterlife.

That's basically what happened, not only is he Seph's rival in physical combat, but in existential force as well.



You are talking about FFVII Cloud.

AC Cloud is a whole new beast all-toguether, Sephiroth and Vincent both stated that Cloud was the only thing left that would be able to stop Seph's apocalypse, the rest of the party really made no difference.



It's actually very resonable that Cloud became that powerfull.

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/vincent.php

Vincent(who is in full control of Chaos, FYI) admits that he dosen't want anyone to interfere because he thinks only Cloud has the power to tackle with Seph(something Sephiroth stated himself).

So yea, teh movie does lead one to believe that.



Sephiroth wanted Cloud dead from the first moment of combat. he strikes to kill with each attack.

Heck, mid-battle he almost decapitates Cloud.

And if it would've worked, he would have used It, considering he was failing to overpower Cloud through sheer physical force, becoming frustrated and losing his smirk, I'd think he would've used It if it would have any effect.



You don't get It. The theme of that scene is Cloud remembering everything that has to do with Sephiroth, wing included.

Sephiroth had that wing out as Safer Sephiroth remember? Cloud would remember that.

CC showed us that they have no boost in power, and all they are is a symbol of Jenova's cells. Gast had a wing, and It gave him no actuall boost in power.

Why didn't Genesis sprout his while fighting Sephiroth in the mako cannon? He was clearly going all out, but he merely uses his wing to fly.

So the thing is purely decorative.



Cloud reacted to Sephiroth's remnants closing in at him from both sides and has reacted to lightning and surprise attacks.

Sephiroth could teleport near him but there is a delay on the instant of teleportation and striking speed, Cloud wouldn't be take out so easily.

Heck, at one point in the fight, Sephiroth appeared in Cloud's sight out of nowhere, ready to strike and Cloud simply dodged.




That isn't logical with Sephiroth.

He was failing to overpower Cloud by sheer force, he had to tire Cloud out for 12+ hours.

I would think, in the fight where we saw almost nothing of and burned half of Midgar(which we never saw how it happened, but it did), he would've used his powers while he was getting frustrated(which he was, he even lost his smirk).



I might agree that Sephiroth was holding back some of his haxxed abilities such as Telekinesis and teleportation, but he was clearly going all-out physicaly, as to the point where he got frustrated he couldn't overpower Cloud.

And how could tehy not be equals in physical prowess?



3:17 onwards.

Cloud legitimately outpower Sephiroth in a sword-lock.

3:34 onwards.

Cloud legitimately forces Sephiroth to dodge his downwards slash that produced fire.

7:50 onwards.

Cloud legitimately gets up and not only overpowers Sephiroth's incoming strike, but sends him flying.

This would'nt have been possible were they not equals in physical power

And conviniently, the creator's agree with me that for the duration of they're fight, they fought as equals.



I'm not exactly saying Cloud = Sephiroth, because Sephiroth > Cloud.

What I'm saying is Clouds's physical power = Sephiroth's. which the fight clearly shows us.

And his existential spirit force is also at least equal to his in AC.

Sephiroth however has other abilities(like infinite stamina) that would make him stronger.



The difference is that you can see the sun low on the horizon when Kadaj is beat.

Meaning it was sunrise, like 5'o clock.

It was at the same time Aerith called the kids to go to the church, where they all rushed out running to the church, and It was still morning then. Meaning they arrived at the church somewhere before 7, before Cloud woke up.

Now, you are speculating that they all waited 12 hours inside the church for Cloud to wake up, sleeping there overnight(it was alot of people) which is pretty unlikely.

And Cloud and Sephiroth had an all-out war, between the two strongest being in FFVII, that destroyed more than half of Midgar by burning It with swords.

It's not surprising that a fight longer than the car chase, Bahamut and Kadaj's fight with Cloud(which all laster 2 hours each) would last much longer.


So...do we understand ourselves now?

I'm just aguing that Sephiroth and Cloud are equal on physical terms only(save for stamina), Sephiroth might not have used his special abilities as you said, but Cloud did fight Sephiroth's strongest version in a physical brawl equally for 12 hours before getting tired. That alone along with other things such as burning buildings easily puts him at second strongest.

So why don't we just agree to that and call It a day? It's a real pain-in-the-ass having to write these essays.

He swung his sword at Cloud as a reaction to Cloud springing up. All that says is Sephiroth has good reflexes, something we already knew. This does not mean he expected Cloud to leap into the fight stronger than before after being stabbed and slashed repeatedly.

Now in regards to Omnislahs ver.6. You are contradicting yourself. You say he cleary wasn't gathering energy until after the initial clash, but you're the one who keep talking about how they channel all their strength into their swords to do the fire thing. Is it so unreasonable to assume that Cloud's spirit energy allowed him to drive Sephiroth back before he decided to use a limit?

And yes, Cloud does drive Sephiroth back at points. Likely when his spirit energy/physical strength peaks. It is possible for somebody who is physicly weaker to drive back an enemy during moment when, either due to mental or physical stress, they briefly surpass their own normal limits.

As for Gensis vs. Sephiroth on the Mako Canon. He didn't know about the wing yet. It was the injury that he suffered in that duel that led to his meeting with Hollander and learning about his degredation.

And when the fuck did Gast have a wing? Seriously, where the hell was that one stated?

As for Cloud improving, well. It is unreasonable to assume he got that much stronger. Maybe if he spent the whole two years doing nohing but trainign and getting stronger. But he didn't. He hung out with Tifa, sort of adopted a family life, and ran a delivery buisness. He still trained sure, but that was secondary. He was trying to settle down and earn a normal living for those two years, not preparing for imminent combat.

As for the stances thing. True, nobody starts a fight all out. But nobody takes 12 hours to get to their full strength. Goku from DBZ didn't need that long and he's famous for taking his sweet time powering up.

Sephiroth was certainly preparing for Omnislash sure, but that doesn't mean he was upping his power with some invisible limit break. Any increase wuld be purely his normal strength, which would support my side of the arguement.

And you make the assmption that Sephiroth's draw slash wouldn't get stronger as he does. He is much stronger than during CC, so logicly so is his draw slash.


BTW, Maiden is non-canon. It doesn't enter into this.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth in the lifestream is not reresentative of their real abilities. Its entirely possible, and quite likely, that Sephiroth was weakened.

As Dissidia shows us, Cloud as he was in FFVII was clearly the underdog when fighting Sephiroth as he was in FFVII.

Also I must contest the statement Sephiroth wanted Cloud to die isntantly. If such was the case, why didn't he just cut right through him whenhe had him impaled. All he had to do was swing his sword down and Cloud would have been dead. Instead he let him dangle their for a moment, taunted him, crippled and disabled his body, floated around for several seconds while Cloud tred to get up, taunted him again, then went in for the kill. And once he got past his initial surprise when Cloud leapt back into the fray, he seemed amused. Yeah, he was sure in a hurry to finish Cloud.

And no, I do get that scene. Its an obvious call-back and refference to when he stabbed Cloud in Nibelheim.

"Is this the pain you felt before, Cloud?"

This line clearly refferences Nibelehim when he stabbed Cloud in the exact sam spot.

And sure he had a bunch of wings as Sapher Sephiroth, but why would that be symbolic to Cloud of failure? The only other time he saw that wing, he fucking ended Sephiroth (With the help of his allies).

And I still dont;t see the sun thing. Besides, being low on the horizon can indicate the sun is setting rather than rising as well. It makes nos ense to assume that two guys at Cloud and Sephiroth's level can fight for 12+hours with neither of them having a scratch to show for it.

However, I'm not arguing that Cloud isn't extremely strong. He is incredibly tough, and is likely the only guy who could fight Sephiroth on a one to one basis with a hope of winning. Thats true.

In terms of skill he is certainly Sephiroth's rival, and the versatility and adaptability of Cloud's wepaon gives him an edge when fighting Sephiroth. No denying that. But physicly their strength is not equal IMO. Its not a HUGE difference. Its not such a difference that Sephiroth could kill Cloud with ease if he wanted. No, Cloud is definetely a challenge for Sephiroth.

That said, I agree that we should agree to disagree and call it a day. These essays are a bit of a pain to write, and we do seem to agree on the major points, such as Sephiroth being overall more powerful than Cloud even though Cloud is absurdly strong in his own right.

So yeah we can call it if you like.
 

The Adept

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Justice D. Zac
Everything Jenova is, Sephiroth absorbed and made part of himself thanks to his vastly superior will. Beyond that Sephiroth made his own disease, he was gonna sail the universe and crash into things too and he mostly took over the Lifestream for a while in AC. He>Jenova

Anyway

1. Sephiroth
2. Cloud
3. Genesis
4. Zack
5. Vincent
6. Weiss
7. Nero
8. Rosso
9. Azul
10. Angeal
11. Shelke
12. AVALANCHE

Jenova is a whole lot stronger than Sephiroth. All of Sephiroth's abilities come from Jenova herself. Sephiroth only has most of Jenova's cells and hence, his power. When all of them combine, Jenova will be reborn. Her virus is on a whole different level than Sephiroth's too, marking their difference in power. Her virus actually turned people into monsters whereas Sephiroth's virus was rejected by the human body. Fighting the planet and the entire Cetra population into a stalemate is a huge deal seeing as the Planet was also at it's peak in strength at the time. Sephiroth is overrated.

Cloud is also below Chaos and Omega. He couldn't even survive a mega flare without Aerith's help. Their destructive capacity is much aobve what he can take.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
@Lord Noctis:

I'll agree to dissagree with you then. Please don't confuse this as me accepting the opposing points because I could very well keep arguing, but I think it would lead us nowhere, even though I still believe my points.

Jenova is a whole lot stronger than Sephiroth. All of Sephiroth's abilities come from Jenova herself. Sephiroth only has most of Jenova's cells and hence, his power. When all of them combine, Jenova will be reborn. Her virus is on a whole different level than Sephiroth's too, marking their difference in power. Her virus actually turned people into monsters whereas Sephiroth's virus was rejected by the human body. Fighting the planet and the entire Cetra population into a stalemate is a huge deal seeing as the Planet was also at it's peak in strength at the time. Sephiroth is overrated.

Um, no, sorry.


“Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII.” – http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

“Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him.” – http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

“It's stated in the official book Reunion Files the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has "ascended to a new level of existence" and is much stronger than before.” - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

Cloud is also below Chaos and Omega. He couldn't even survive a mega flare without Aerith's help. Their destructive capacity is much aobve what he can take.

Wow, no.

Cloud is so far above those two It's funny.

You do know that Aerith was only helping him through his doubts right? She can't actually heal him inside a megaflare. He tanked It without a single scratch.

Furthermore you do realize Cloud had Geostigma right? Which severly hampered his body?

Cloud tanked a blast from the planet It'self in FFVII, as well as a slash from FFVII Sephiroth. What you are suggesting is ridiculous when this so-called "Destructive capacity" never even destroyed anything and couldn't outright kill Rosso.

In-fact Chaos and Omega are most likely below Genesis and Zack.

Besides, both Vincent and Sephiroth admitted Cloud was the only one who could tackle Seph.
 
Last edited:

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Sephiroth reminds me of a gifted athlete who chooses to piss away all his talent and act like a dick 'cos he thinks he's bigger than Elvis. Whereas Cloud is the honest underdog who always prevails through blood, sweat and tears. The guy's kicked Seph's ass THREE times now. That's gotta count for something.

So...
Cloud > Sephiroth.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
And you make the assmption that Sephiroth's draw slash wouldn't get stronger as he does. He is much stronger than during CC, so logicly so is his draw slash.
Sephiroth has gotten a lot stronger, he's also quite fundamentally different. In CC he was all, flesh, bone and mako, now he's all black lifestream and a fistful of Jenova cells. He retained just about all his fighting skills but him not glowing with mako when he does a long swordslash combo or shooting big mako bursts from his sword anymore doesn't tell me he's holding back. His new form may just not work like that anymore.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Um, no, sorry.


“Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII.” – http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

“Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him.” – http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

“It's stated in the official book Reunion Files the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has "ascended to a new level of existence" and is much stronger than before.” - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

I don't deny that the creators have said that, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any sense. If Jenova cells have given Sephiroth his superhuman strength it stands to reason that pure Jenova would be more powerful.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
But, i'll anwser one last time(really, the last one) as I hate to leave points unattended.

He swung his sword at Cloud as a reaction to Cloud springing up. All that says is Sephiroth has good reflexes, something we already knew. This does not mean he expected Cloud to leap into the fight stronger than before after being stabbed and slashed repeatedly.

YOu're ignoring that Sephiroth was clearly going all-out in speed and power to slash Cloud's head off(no easy feat).

Yet, Sephiroth was outstrenghted, legitimately by Cloud.

Now in regards to Omnislahs ver.6. You are contradicting yourself. You say he cleary wasn't gathering energy until after the initial clash, but you're the one who keep talking about how they channel all their strength into their swords to do the fire thing. Is it so unreasonable to assume that Cloud's spirit energy allowed him to drive Sephiroth back before he decided to use a limit?

The fire thing using spirit is speculation on my part, to explain the creator's quote, it might just be anything.

And no, I'm not contradicting myself, Cloud's strenght simply overlaped Sephiroth's on that one moment, It dosen't mean that he's overall stronger(as he's not, cause they are even), but that's what being even means, at times one will have the advantage, and at times the other; balancing it out.


And yes, Cloud does drive Sephiroth back at points. Likely when his spirit energy/physical strength peaks. It is possible for somebody who is physicly weaker to drive back an enemy during moment when, either due to mental or physical stress, they briefly surpass their own normal limits.

Right, and that alone would make Cloud Sephiroth's physical even in battle, heck the creator's quote tells us as much that they were even for the duration of their battle.

As for Gensis vs. Sephiroth on the Mako Canon. He didn't know about the wing yet. It was the injury that he suffered in that duel that led to his meeting with Hollander and learning about his degredation.

And when the fuck did Gast have a wing? Seriously, where the hell was that one stated?

Learning about his degradation dosen't mean learning about his wing.

For all we know they always knew of them.

Besides, even after Genesis gained a wing, he was still inferior to Sephiroth; so was Angeal, who also had a wing, and Sephiroth who probably had his wing.

Was Sephiroth not trying against Zack since he didn't summon that wing? Likely not, he didn't even do It in LO, the wings are merely for aesthethic values.

As for Cloud improving, well. It is unreasonable to assume he got that much stronger. Maybe if he spent the whole two years doing nohing but trainign and getting stronger. But he didn't. He hung out with Tifa, sort of adopted a family life, and ran a delivery buisness. He still trained sure, but that was secondary. He was trying to settle down and earn a normal living for those two years, not preparing for imminent combat.

We don't speculate on how, we just know through statements from Vincent and Sephiroth that the party didn't matter(even Chaos, Vincent or anyone else) that Cloud was the last one capable of facing him.

That's how the creator's made him in AC.

s for the stances thing. True, nobody starts a fight all out. But nobody takes 12 hours to get to their full strength. Goku from DBZ didn't need that long and he's famous for taking his sweet time powering up.

We shouldn't speculate, they're levels might lower in combat as well(like you keep saying how Cloud momentarily surpasses Seph), but we know that they amounted to an equal combat as the creator's stated such.

Sephiroth was certainly preparing for Omnislash sure, but that doesn't mean he was upping his power with some invisible limit break. Any increase wuld be purely his normal strength, which would support my side of the arguement.

It dosen't mean he wasn't. He was obviously preparing himself to defend the amped Cloud, otherwise he wouldn't be able to, as you can see, in the battle, Sephiroth was at times driven back by a non-omnislashing Cloud, up to the point he was frustrated at Cloud's power.

And you make the assmption that Sephiroth's draw slash wouldn't get stronger as he does. He is much stronger than during CC, so logicly so is his draw slash.

Sure, but that dosen't mean he would even use the attack, which would be pretty useless agianst Cloud.

he only ever used It when there was some distance between him and his enemy, adn he was almost always body-to-body vs Cloud.

BTW, Maiden is non-canon. It doesn't enter into this.

Nope, i'm pretty sure Maiden is fully canon. It's generally accepted as canon by the people in this site in other threads, and It was fully canonized, even if not written by the creators.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth in the lifestream is not reresentative of their real abilities. Its entirely possible, and quite likely, that Sephiroth was weakened.

Being defeated in your physical form dosen't lower the power of you spiritual. If that were true, Sephiroth wouldn't be able to still separate himself from teh planet. It's because his spirit was undamaged that Cloud hat to enter astral form and go defeat It. It's baseless to assume his spiritual body was damaged.

Cloud's spiritual power simply surpassed FFVII Sephiroth's, that's all there is too It.

As Dissidia shows us, Cloud as he was in FFVII was clearly the underdog when fighting Sephiroth as he was in FFVII.

The Dissidia versions aren't even the game versions, and It's well established as non-canon.

Or do you think Laguna would have a shot against the Cloud Of Darkness?

Also I must contest the statement Sephiroth wanted Cloud to die isntantly. If such was the case, why didn't he just cut right through him whenhe had him impaled. All he had to do was swing his sword down and Cloud would have been dead.

Clodu's body is extremely durable, It tanked megaflares, blasts from the planet It'self and FFVII Sephiroth's slash. Doing what you are implying isn't as easy as you think it is.

Furthermore, Cloud was stabbed through the heart, that's a very big killing intent right there.

Instead he let him dangle their for a moment, taunted him, crippled and disabled his body, floated around for several seconds while Cloud tred to get up, taunted him again, then went in for the kill. And once he got past his initial surprise when Cloud leapt back into the fray, he seemed amused. Yeah, he was sure in a hurry to finish Cloud.

That's Sephiroth grabbing his chance.

He saw Cloud was getting exhausted and he wasn't. They weren't able to physicaly overpower each other as the creator's stated. When Cloud became exhausted, he was able to grab that oportunity.

But Sephiroth was clearly trying to kill him mid-fight, before Cloud got exhausted.

He nearly decapitated Cloud on instances, and slashes him in half on others.

And no, I do get that scene. Its an obvious call-back and refference to when he stabbed Cloud in Nibelheim.

"Is this the pain you felt before, Cloud?"

This line clearly refferences Nibelehim when he stabbed Cloud in the exact sam spot.

And sure he had a bunch of wings as Sapher Sephiroth, but why would that be symbolic to Cloud of failure? The only other time he saw that wing, he fucking ended Sephiroth (With the help of his allies).

You're missing the point, it's an obvious reminder for him of his past, the wing that is.

It's also a symbol of elegance, Jenova, etc...

Having sprouted a wing produced no difference in his power whatsoever, neither did it to Genesis's.

And I still dont;t see the sun thing. Besides, being low on the horizon can indicate the sun is setting rather than rising as well. It makes nos ense to assume that two guys at Cloud and Sephiroth's level can fight for 12+hours with neither of them having a scratch to show for it.

No, you're still missing It.

By your story, since the fight started at 6pm, the children would've received the call at night, and went to the church or at least arrived tehre around 7pm, which would also be at night.

But It was day, and the sun was rising, meaning they received the call right after that explosion by the remnants, and wne to the church, and Cloud woke up 7am.

You're implying that The battle finished still in afternoon, they received the call, went to the church(everyone) and everyone waited there 10+ hours for Cloud to wake up.

That, is much more unlikely than my version.

However, I'm not arguing that Cloud isn't extremely strong. He is incredibly tough, and is likely the only guy who could fight Sephiroth on a one to one basis with a hope of winning. Thats true.

i do agree with this of course, but I don't think Seph and Cloud are as far apart as people make them seem.

n terms of skill he is certainly Sephiroth's rival, and the versatility and adaptability of Cloud's wepaon gives him an edge when fighting Sephiroth. No denying that. But physicly their strength is not equal IMO. Its not a HUGE difference. Its not such a difference that Sephiroth could kill Cloud with ease if he wanted. No, Cloud is definetely a challenge for Sephiroth.

yes, i agree.

That said, I agree that we should agree to disagree and call it a day. These essays are a bit of a pain to write, and we do seem to agree on the major points, such as Sephiroth being overall more powerful than Cloud even though Cloud is absurdly strong in his own right.

So yeah we can call it if you like.

Yea, these things are an incredible bother to write.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Sephiroth has gotten a lot stronger, he's also quite fundamentally different. In CC he was all, flesh, bone and mako, now he's all black lifestream and a fistful of Jenova cells. He retained just about all his fighting skills but him not glowing with mako when he does a long swordslash combo or shooting big mako bursts from his sword anymore doesn't tell me he's holding back. His new form may just not work like that anymore.

This is a VERY good point.

Considering Sephiroth lost almost all his memories of who he was post FFVII, his new form is perhaps simply on a higher level.

Which makes sense. His new form wouldn't need to bother with such attacks, his last form only used them to hit far away opponents, and his new o0ne was CQC with Cloud at every moment.

Plus, we knwo ACC is much more powerful, with all the lightning buildings into fire and stuff.

Octorawk said:
I don't deny that the creators have said that, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any sense. If Jenova cells have given Sephiroth his superhuman strength it stands to reason that pure Jenova would be more powerful.

You have to realize that power in FFVII dosen't come only from one's genetics.

Is one of the reasons Cloud is able to replicate some of Sephiroth's power because he is the last person with Pure S-Cells? Certainly.

But his power also stems from his spirit, or existential force. Which is even abvoe the planet(considering It defeated FFVII Sephiroth's spirit and is able to keep separate from the Lifetream).

Sephiroth's existential form is emphasized to be absurdly powerful, so it's no wonder he surpassed Jenova.
 

The Adept

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Justice D. Zac
@Lord Noctis:

Um, no, sorry.


“Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII.” – http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

“Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him.” – http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

“It's stated in the official book Reunion Files the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has "ascended to a new level of existence" and is much stronger than before.” - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

I'm not disagreeing with the creators when I say this (I'd be an idiot if I did) but I don't think they factored in the Planet and Jenova when they said this. Most of Sephiroth and Cloud's power have been from the Planet and Jenova, it wouldn't make sense if they as a whole aren't stronger than Cloud and Sephiroth.

Feats always put CLoud and Sephiroth below the Planet and Jenova. Cloud would've been turned to crap when bathed in lifestream if not for Tifa and Aerith. Same for Sephiroth if not for his willpower and Jenova Cells which cannot be absorbed by Lifestream.

Most of Sephiroth and Cloud's powers have been because of the Planet and Jenova's . Sure their own training has allowed them to become stronger but not at a level where they can destroy the Planet or life wipe by themselves.

Wow, no.

Cloud is so far above those two It's funny.

You do know that Aerith was only helping him through his doubts right? She can't actually heal him inside a megaflare. He tanked It without a single scratch.

Furthermore you do realize Cloud had Geostigma right? Which severly hampered his body?

I'll admit Cloud was weakened by the Geostigma but Aerith was giving him protection also. Maybe she didn't heal him, but something similar to Holy that was protecting him from harm. Feats don't put him above Chaos at all. He may be a physical challenge to Sephiroth, but Cloud is still far below Sephiroth if they were going all out.

Cloud tanked a blast from the planet It'self in FFVII, as well as a slash from FFVII Sephiroth. What you are suggesting is ridiculous when this so-called "Destructive capacity" never even destroyed anything and couldn't outright kill Rosso.

Ditto Megaflare, didn't even destroy anything, other weaker attacks destroyed buildings. I'm just saying this 1:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGUBr_WWrv0 is a lot more impressive than the Megaflare feat.

In-fact Chaos and Omega are most likely below Genesis and Zack.

Besides, both Vincent and Sephiroth admitted Cloud was the only one who could tackle Seph.

Um, no. refer to feat above. When has Zack and Genesis shown anything of Chaos's calibur? He breached the atmosphere in seconds! Chaos is a whole lot faster than them.

Regarding Vincent's line, I don't think the creators had a set power level of Vincent at the time (Seeing as AC was MADE several years before DOC). The Compilation had changed and added onto several things from the previous titles. What Chaos and Omega has shown in DOC is above what Sephiroth and Cloud had shown in AC.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
I still disagree, but theres no point continuing. Neither of us is convincing the other. However, one point that must be made. Dissidia has been acknowledged as canon by the creators. Cloud and Sephiroth in that game are representative of their FFVII selves. This is fact.
 

The Adept

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Justice D. Zac
I still disagree, but theres no point continuing. Neither of us is convincing the other. However, one point that must be made. Dissidia has been acknowledged as canon by the creators. Cloud and Sephiroth in that game are representative of their FFVII selves. This is fact.

I don't know, although the story of Dissidia is possible with the timelines of the other Final Fantasies, most of the FF villians were severely nerfed. Namely Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness, Ultimecia, etc. Kuja nuked a planet, Squall isn't nearly as fast, Tifa acutally lasted in a fight against Sephiroth, etc.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I still disagree, but theres no point continuing. Neither of us is convincing the other. However, one point that must be made. Dissidia has been acknowledged as canon by the creators. Cloud and Sephiroth in that game are representative of their FFVII selves. This is fact.

Sephiroth wasn't stomping the hell out of Cloud in Dissidia either though. Cloud defeated three times there too. Can't even say Sephiroth had him on the ropes in the cutscene scuffle like he did in AC, if you ask me.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
Sephiroth wasn't stomping the hell out of Cloud in Dissidia either though. Cloud defeated three times there too. Can't even say Sephiroth had him on the ropes in the cutscene scuffle like he did in AC, if you ask me.

Sephiroth slashed him out of the air and slammed him into the ground after easily recovering from Cloud's own attacks. Cloud was clearly having a hard time.

Besides, Sephiroth specificly wanted Cloud to obtain his crystal in Dissidia. And in Dissidia Duodecim he wasn't defeated so much as he said "I've got my memories back now so I'm gonna go sort through them. Kill ya later." Remember, that was his main goal in orchestrating his fight with Cloud in Duodecim, to regain his memories.

The only time when Sephiroth could arguably have been really trying to kill Cloud was the second fight in the first Dissidia. But its entirely possible he was just fucking with him there. In fact his last line of dialogue seems like he was specificly planting a seed of doubt in Cloud's mind in preperation for his plan in AC/C
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
I'm not disagreeing with the creators when I say this (I'd be an idiot if I did) but I don't think they factored in the Planet and Jenova when they said this. Most of Sephiroth and Cloud's power have been from the Planet and Jenova, it wouldn't make sense if they as a whole aren't stronger than Cloud and Sephiroth.

Feats always put CLoud and Sephiroth below the Planet and Jenova. Cloud would've been turned to crap when bathed in lifestream if not for Tifa and Aerith. Same for Sephiroth if not for his willpower and Jenova Cells which cannot be absorbed by Lifestream.

Most of Sephiroth and Cloud's powers have been because of the Planet and Jenova's . Sure their own training has allowed them to become stronger but not at a level where they can destroy the Planet or life wipe by themselves.

If direct creator's statements can't convince you, I'm not going to actually try.

But, point must be made that Cloud and Sephiroth are as powerful as they are because of they're willpowers, which are above the planet, since both can become separate from teh lifestream, Sephiroth's will alone was corrupting the planet, and Cloud's will is stronger than his.


I'll admit Cloud was weakened by the Geostigma but Aerith was giving him protection also. Maybe she didn't heal him, but something similar to Holy that was protecting him from harm. Feats don't put him above Chaos at all. He may be a physical challenge to Sephiroth, but Cloud is still far below Sephiroth if they were going all out.

You mean the blue aura?

That was Cloud limit breaking, which in no way augments his defense.

Aerith was there to provide him with emotional support, since Cloud was doubting himself, the scene was even stated to be a homage to the scene where Cloud takes Aerith's/Tifa's hand out of the lifestream, as him going through one of his emotional struggles.

Chaos or Omega can' even begin to compare.

He is physically equal to ACC Sephiroth. Both of them burned Midgar simply by slashing and produced light, stated to be gathering of power.

Something that didn't occur in Omega vs Chaos. Why? Because they're obviously weaker.

But, yes feats put Cloud far above Chaos or Omega.

He is Sephiroth's stated rival in combat and existential force for chirsts sake.

“He was to fulfill the volition inherited from "Mother" to "To rule the Planet", and fought against his fated rival Cloud.

Cloud answers Sephiroth's proposal with his own perseverance. Cloud regards what is right, as Sephiroth holds Cloud in place, both standing in each other's way as fated rivals.” – http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/sephiroth.php


Ditto Megaflare, didn't even destroy anything, other weaker attacks destroyed buildings.

And the megaflare Cloud tanked would be able to fit thousands of Clouds.

Keep in mind, a Tifa-sized flare obliterated a building.

Cloud tanked FFVII Sephiroth's slash and a blast from the planet It'self.

I'm just saying this 1:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGUBr_WWrv0 is a lot more impressive than the Megaflare feat.

Wow, really?

You mean the mako explosion that destroyed not one building?

FYI, that feat has nothing to even do with power. That explosion was Omega returning to the planet after Chaos contacted with It.

It was even called the falling Mako from the weapon, or Omega and Chaos retuning to the planet, It has nothing to do with power or durability.

Chaos was unable to kill Rosso at full-power and full control with his energy.


Um, no. refer to feat above. When has Zack and Genesis shown anything of Chaos's calibur? He breached the atmosphere in seconds! Chaos is a whole lot faster than them.

:/

They never breached the atmosphere, you don't even know how high they were. Besides that's a travel speed feat, his combat speed is enough to be rivaled by Base Weiss; whose weaker than Genesis.

Zack was dodging omnidirectional bullets and killing Bahamuts, keeping in strenght with Genesis; faster and stronger than Chaos.

Chaos had trouble with base Weiss, who is weaker than Genesis.

And Genesis Avatar who is stronger than base Genesis, whom Zack defeated.

Regarding Vincent's line, I don't think the creators had a set power level of Vincent at the time (Seeing as AC was MADE several years before DOC)

Completely wrong, AC was being produced and launched at roughly the same time as DoC, so much that the Reunion Files even has a page describing every character of the game.

Besides, that quote is from The 10th anniversary Ultimania; after DoC was launched.

Which means you point is moot.


What Chaos and Omega has shown in DOC is above what Sephiroth and Cloud had shown in AC.

It's hilarious that you hype out two character from one scene when the creator's clearly portray the others as stronger.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Sephiroth slashed him out of the air and slammed him into the ground after easily recovering from Cloud's own attacks. Cloud was clearly having a hard time.

Besides, Sephiroth specificly wanted Cloud to obtain his crystal in Dissidia. And in Dissidia Duodecim he wasn't defeated so much as he said "I've got my memories back now so I'm gonna go sort through them. Kill ya later." Remember, that was his main goal in orchestrating his fight with Cloud in Duodecim, to regain his memories.

The only time when Sephiroth could arguably have been really trying to kill Cloud was the second fight in the first Dissidia. But its entirely possible he was just fucking with him there. In fact his last line of dialogue seems like he was specificly planting a seed of doubt in Cloud's mind in preperation for his plan in AC/C

He clearly lost the second Dissidia fight.

He was panting defeated while Cloud was without any injury.

Also pretty sure Dissidia is deemed non-canon.

Otherwise Lightning can take on Kuja and Laguna can take on the Cloud of Darkness.
 
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