(Un)Official FFVII Tier List

[Ⓐaron]

Nope, i'm pretty sure Maiden is fully canon. It's generally accepted as canon by the people in this site in other threads, and It was fully canonized, even if not written by the creators.

Maiden definitely isn't accepted as canon by the creators or on this site. I don't know where you got the impression that it was, but it really isn't. There's some discussion of it here and here and probably in other threads as well, but I really can't be arsed looking through the entire site for info.

 

[Wolfmania]

Maiden definitely isn't accepted as canon by the creators or on this site. I don't know where you got the impression that it was, but it really isn't. There's some discussion of it here and here and probably in other threads as well, but I really can't be arsed looking through the entire site for info.

Fair enough, though I remember reading It somewhere that it is until today canonized by the creator's even If It wasn't written by them, but by a guy they picked.

 

[Ⓐaron]

It definitely wasn't canonised because, for starters, it flat-out contradicts a lot of the Compilation. Of course, Lost Order contradicts some of it as well, but even that isn't regarded as the definitive edition of events described within it. There's a tier of canonicity, if you will, among officially published Square Enix materials when it comes to the Compilation and Maiden is pretty much at the bottom of it.

 

[The Adept]

If direct creator's statements can't convince you, I'm not going to actually try.

But, point must be made that Cloud and Sephiroth are as powerful as they are because of they're willpowers, which are above the planet, since both can become separate from teh lifestream, Sephiroth's will alone was corrupting the planet, and Cloud's will is stronger than his.

Like I said, the Planet and Jenova are special cases seeing as they aren't really characters and might've not been factored.

Sephiroth was corrupting the Lifestream because it was severely weakened from when Jenova attacked, the mako reactors, and stopping Meteor. Sephiroth's willpower is enough for him to stay intact in the lifestream (by concentrating on Cloud) and act out in the physical world but it's still not close to the Planet's. The Lifestream contains the wills and memories of every living thing on the Planet.

You mean the blue aura?

That was Cloud limit breaking, which in no way augments his defense.

Aerith was there to provide him with emotional support, since Cloud was doubting himself, the scene was even stated to be a homage to the scene where Cloud takes Aerith's/Tifa's hand out of the lifestream, as him going through one of his emotional struggles.

I'll concede here seeing as I don't really know myself

Chaos or Omega can't even begin to compare.

He is physically equal to ACC Sephiroth. Both of them burned Midgar simply by slashing and produced light, stated to be gathering of power.

Something that didn't occur in Omega vs Chaos. Why? Because they're obviously weaker.

DOC lacked the graphic qualities of AC which was an actual cg movie. The fight wa done with PS2 graphics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY2k8LhvEU If you're going with what occured, Chaos and Weiss were just flashes of light while fighting, whereas you can completley see Cloud and Sephiroth in their fight.

But, yes feats put Cloud far above Chaos or Omega.[?QUOTE]

No, it doesn't

He is Sephiroth's stated rival in combat and existential force for chirsts sake.

“He was to fulfill the volition inherited from "Mother" to "To rule the Planet", and fought against his fated rival Cloud.

Cloud answers Sephiroth's proposal with his own perseverance. Cloud regards what is right, as Sephiroth holds Cloud in place, both standing in each other's way as fated rivals.” – http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/sephiroth.php

Yes, in combat but Sephiroth stomps on Cloud if he was going all out.

And the megaflare Cloud tanked would be able to fit thousands of Clouds.

Keep in mind, a Tifa-sized flare obliterated a building.

Cloud tanked FFVII Sephiroth's slash and a blast from the planet It'self.

Megaflare would take out atleast a city block, not the whole city though.

[QUOTE}

Wow, really?

You mean the mako explosion that destroyed not one building?

FYI, that feat has nothing to even do with power. That explosion was Omega returning to the planet after Chaos contacted with It.

It was even called the falling Mako from the weapon, or Omega and Chaos retuning to the planet, It has nothing to do with power or durability.

The collision between Chaos and Omega was really high up, Omega's remains were left in orbit. It was indeed an explosion, seeing as it caused shockwaves. The explosion was Omega and Chaos being blown into pieces. The mako/chaos/omega was returned after the explosion had subsided (2:18) (the purple and green stuff)

Omega had to have enough durability to host the entire Lifestream within it, close to the Planet itself. And it had to have enough power to soar through space to reach another Planet. Chaos completely destroyed Omega. Both of them are planetary threats. The feat of them both breaching the atmosphere still stands.

Chaos was unable to kill Rosso at full-power and full control with his energy.

Base Vincent defeats Rosso causing her to jump to her death

2:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12QX3FGp4xU

:/

They never breached the atmosphere, you don't even know how high they were. Besides that's a travel speed feat, his combat speed is enough to be rivaled by Base Weiss; whose weaker than Genesis.

Zack was dodging omnidirectional bullets and killing Bahamuts, keeping in strenght with Genesis; faster and stronger than Chaos.

Chaos had trouble with base Weiss, who is weaker than Genesis.

They were high enough that Omega's remains were left in orbit as stated above. Combat feat listed in first link.

That was probably not base Weiss, they were fighting inside Omgea whom Weiss had already become a part of. Even if it was base Weiss, it would be in his favor seeing as he was previously a 1st class soldier on par with Genesis. Then subject to deepground experiments that made him into a Super SOLDIER. Deepground SOLDIERS > regular SOLDIERS. Weiss was also the strongest Tsviet which should be atleast CC Sephiroth level.

Chaos had the upperhand most of the time and his after images lasted a whole lot longer than Clouds Omnislash ver 5 onee.

And Genesis Avatar who is stronger than base Genesis, whom Zack defeated.

Who had no feats and was cured by the Planet

Completely wrong, AC was being produced and launched at roughly the same time as DoC, so much that the Reunion Files even has a page describing every character of the game.

Besides, that quote is from The 10th anniversary Ultimania; after DoC was launched.

Which means you point is moot.

I'll accept your point but it could still be that weaker-hero-beats-extremely-strong-villian plot induced stupidity crap that Final Fantasy always pulls.

It's hilarious that you hype out two character from one scene when the creator's clearly portray the others as stronger.

I find it weird myself but hey, I'm just comparing feats here. Sephiroth and Cloud are the most overestimated FF characters out there because of the creator's statements.

 

[The Adept]

Sorry about my poor quoting, can't seem to edit my posts.

 

[Wolfmania]

Like I said, the Planet and Jenova are special cases seeing as they aren't really characters and might've not been factored.

Sephiroth was corrupting the Lifestream because it was severely weakened from when Jenova attacked, the mako reactors, and stopping Meteor. Sephiroth's willpower is enough for him to stay intact in the lifestream (by concentrating on Cloud) and act out in the physical world but it's still not close to the Planet's. The Lifestream contains the wills and memories of every living thing on the Planet.

Jenova and Minerva(the planet) are both characters. They even have character profiles.

Jenova attacked the planet 2000yrs ago, you can't tell me It hadn't healed with no evidence.

Sephiroth and Cloud's will is what is so powerful, It even allowed them to keep separate from the planet, and overpower the lifestream.

I'll concede here seeing as I don't really know myself

It was stated in an interview tha the blue auras surrounding Cloud are limit breaks.

And he used a limit break right after he cut the flare.

DOC lacked the graphic qualities of AC which was an actual cg movie. The fight wa done with PS2 graphics.

They still didn't add the clashing light or the building burning, and those are stated to be measures of power, and measures only given in AC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY2k8LhvEU If you're going with what occured, Chaos and Weiss were just flashes of light while fighting, whereas you can completley see Cloud and Sephiroth in their fight.

That's because we know ACC was slowed down.

"Well, when you compare Reno and Rude's speed to Cloud's group, it seems they're moving at the speed of the average human but, we actually made them a bit faster. If we dropped the concept of "normal" speed in the scenes then things would get very hectic..." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/prologuebk/interview.php

The fight's in AC were slowed down as to be easier to animate or to give it more emotion.

The collision between Chaos and Omega was really high up, Omega's remains were left in orbit. It was indeed an explosion, seeing as it caused shockwaves. The explosion was Omega and Chaos being blown into pieces. The mako/chaos/omega was returned after the explosion had subsided (2:18) (the purple and green stuff)

Correction, Omega wasn't in orbit, tht would imply he was out of the atmosphere in space, where we clearly saw him still in the atmosphere in the clash and in the ending.

The explosion that was Omega and Chaos returning to the planet destroyed not one building and It's shockwaves made no one fall down. You're trying to pass it as a destruction/durability feat when It's obviously not the case.

What happened was Chaos touched Omega's core(since he was basically mako in his ascencion) and told it to return to the planet, which caused the mako explosion and then It rained down again. It has nothing to do with their power.

Omega had to have enough durability to host the entire Lifestream within it, close to the Planet itself. And it had to have enough power to soar through space to reach another Planet. Chaos completely destroyed Omega. Both of them are planetary threats. The feat of them both breaching the atmosphere still stands.

Dude, seriously,

So did FFVII Sephiroth. He could absorb the entire lifestream, ACC is even stronger being made purely of Jenova and an entire lifestream, his physical powers should be well beyond the planet's and Cloud matched him. Chaos ddin't destroy Omega, merely forced him and the other back to the planet in the form of mako.

Did you miss how Cloud in DoC cut through Omega's attack with one sword like It was butter?

And none of that proves they breached the atmosphere into space.

Besides, If you want to talk about speed, Cloud moved faster than a lightning bolt, that's much faster than ascending up in the sky or even the atmosphere.

Base Vincent defeats Rosso causing her to jump to her death

2:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12QX3FGp4xU

Yes, I know very well. But you're trying to pass out Chaos's energies as planetary or something when they're not even that impressive and can't even fully kill Rosso, only force her to flee.

They were high enough that Omega's remains were left in orbit as stated above. Combat feat listed in first link.

They weren't in orbit. They were still in the atmosphere when they clashes, and Omega's remains are stagnant in the atmosphere, not in orbit.

Besides, that's a travel speed feat, not even a combat one.

They have nothing to match Zack in strenght and speed, as he was dodging Omnidirectional bullet barrages and keeping up with Sephiroth and Genesis Avatar.

That was probably not base Weiss, they were fighting inside Omgea whom Weiss had already become a part of. Even if it was base Weiss, it would be in his favor seeing as he was previously a 1st class soldier on par with Genesis. Then subject to deepground experiments that made him into a Super SOLDIER. Deepground SOLDIERS > regular SOLDIERS. Weiss was also the strongest Tsviet which should be atleast CC Sephiroth level.

I'm sure that was Base Weiss.

Omega Weiss would be the machine-like boss oyu battle after Base Weiss.

And Genesis is FAR from a regular 1st Class.

Sephiroth was stated to be the strongest SOLDIER ever created(including every DG one), and was also stated to be the strongest one alive in CC(which Weiss and Nero even featured).

Genesis can fight almost equally with him.

Besides remember that Weiss is a spawn of Genesis? Like Cloud is to Sephiroth. Weiss is spliced with Genesis Genes.

Heck Weiss himself took Genesis to DG and begged Genesis to help him in rebellion, genesis hust casually walked out.

Besides the ending of DoC Itself shows G as superior.

Chaos had the upperhand most of the time and his after images lasted a whole lot longer than Clouds Omnislash ver 5 onee.

If Weiss could challenge Chaos, I see no reason why superior SOLDIERS like Zack and Genesis couldn't.

And CLoud's aftermirages were a total of 6, and they lasted much more than Chaos's.

But It's moot point since It was stated AC was brought into "normal" speed, otherwise they would have hell to animate.

Sephiroth is also faster than Chaos and Cloud kept up with him for 10+ hours.

And again, Cloud has a better speed feat; dodging lightning.

Who had no feats and was cured by the Planet

He was definitely stronger than base Genesis.

I'll accept your point but it could still be that weaker-hero-beats-extremely-strong-villian plot induced stupidity crap that Final Fantasy always pulls.

Well, i appriciate that.

But Vincent specifically used the word "power" and "Cloud".

It's just that no one else Coudl've fought ACC Sephiroth(strongest being in existence) head-on and survived.

I find it weird myself but hey, I'm just comparing feats here. Sephiroth and Cloud are the most overestimated FF characters out there because of the creator's statements.

Well creator's opinion > Ours, always.

And I just don't see it.

Sephiroth and Cloud clearly have superior feats.

 

[Lord Noctis]

He clearly lost the second Dissidia fight.

He was panting defeated while Cloud was without any injury.

Also pretty sure Dissidia is deemed non-canon.

Otherwise Lightning can take on Kuja and Laguna can take on the Cloud of Darkness.

Like I said, he arguably wont he second Dissidia fight. But the other two, nto so much.

Though you can't say Cloud was without injury. The graphical limitations of the PSP are what are responsible for his unharmed appearance. Sephiroth showed no visible damage in CC even after being impaled on the Buster Sword for example. Cloud arguably bested Sephiroth in the second Dissidia fight, but theres no way he came out without injury.

And yes, Dissidia is considered canon by the creators.

 

[Roger]

The only time when Sephiroth could arguably have been really trying to kill Cloud was the second fight in the first Dissidia. But its entirely possible he was just fucking with him there. In fact his last line of dialogue seems like he was specificly planting a seed of doubt in Cloud's mind in preperation for his plan in AC/C

Sephiroth reassured himself that he still had an out, but I don't think it's canon that he wanted to lose and die, which is what happened. in the original Dissidia he still had a whole plan lined up for this world.

 

[Wolfmania]

I don't know, I have my doubts about Dissidia being canon. I don't remember It being acknowledged as canon.

It's just too wildly innacurate.

For instance Lightning straight out beat Kuja, and Kuja was able to fight Squall, Zidane and Bartz up to the point they had to run away.

So Lightning > Squall + Bartz + Zidane?

Not to mention people like Laguna have a shot against being such as Cloud of Darkness.

That seems.....off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know the Seph vs. Cloud strength debate is over, but I do have to chime in enough to say that was Seph as desperate in that battle as Cloud had been, he wouldn't have spent a full 20 seconds floating above him in the air gloating after he hacked him up. For me, that -- plus Seph literally using no other offensive measure than his swordskills -- tells me everything that we need to know about who was more powerful in that battle, and how seriously Seph wasn't taking it.

The Reunion Files quote only tells us that they were fighting on relatively equal footing, not that Seph was incapable of more (we know he was; the dude has more than a sword) if he chose to stop focusing on humiliating Cloud.

I don't know, I have my doubts about Dissidia being canon. I don't remember It being acknowledged as canon.

Dissidia is definitely canon. For the reasons why, check out the first two entries on pg. 4 of the Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ we have here on the site:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-dissidia/8003/dissidia-012-plot-analysis-faq/4/

It's just too wildly innacurate.

For instance Lightning straight out beat Kuja, and Kuja was able to fight Squall, Zidane and Bartz up to the point they had to run away.

So Lightning > Squall + Bartz + Zidane?

Remember that Kuja wasn't trying to kill Squall, Bartz and Zidane. He was letting them escape. He also probably didn't really want to kill Lightning, while she was definitely trying to kill him.

Kuja was one of the good guys during cycle 012.

Not to mention people like Laguna have a shot against being such as Cloud of Darkness.

That seems.....off.

I won't argue with you on that one, but it's hardly a deal breaker given everything else going on in Dissidia. I'd reason, though, that she didn't legitimately try to kill him during their fight at the end of cycle 012.

For one thing, it's stated in-game that she finds Laguna interesting because of his lack of concern for the gods, and for another, she wanted the manikins to be removed from the war. Kefka even kills her for all of this later.

Here's her in-game profile:

The Cloud of Darkness reveals the location of the gate to the Rift to
Laguna, a warrior of Cosmos, as it found the manikins to be
abominations that disrupted a fragile balance; but the true reason
for revealing the gate's location was out of interest in Laguna, who
holds an utter lack of concern towards the gods.

It is later ambushed by Kefka who deems it a traitor upon learning
that it leaked information to Cosmos's chosen and receives
purification at the hands of Shinryu, but memories are trivial to
one who controls the powers of nothingness.

 

[Wolfmania]

I know the Seph vs. Cloud strength debate is over, but I do have to chime in enough to say that was Seph as desperate in that battle as Cloud had been, he wouldn't have spent a full 20 seconds floating above him in the air gloating after he hacked him up. For me, that -- plus Seph literally using no other offensive measure than his swordskills -- tells me everything that we need to know about who was more powerful in that battle, and how seriously Seph wasn't taking it.

The Reunion Files quote only tells us that they were fighting on relatively equal footing, not that Seph was incapable of more (we know he was; the dude has more than a sword) if he chose to stop focusing on humiliating Cloud.

Yes I know, I was simply arguing that ACC Cloud is physicaly equal to ACC Sephiroth, and yes It's very probable that Sephiroth had been holding back on his more "exotic" powers such as telekinesis, teleportation, etc... but by no means did he hold back physicaly on Cloud, he was even getting frustrated that he was not managing to overpower him in that battle.

But do remember that he wanted a fair fight with Cloud, since Cloud also had no magic, I'd think he wanted to best Cloud on his own, face to face.

Dissidia is definitely canon. For the reasons why, check out the first two entries on pg. 4 of the Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ we have here on the site:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fanta...nalysis-faq/4/

I'll definitely have a read on that later.

Remember that Kuja wasn't trying to kill Squall, Bartz and Zidane. He was letting them escape. He also probably didn't really want to kill Lightning, while she was definitely trying to kill him.

Kuja was one of the good guys during cycle 012.

Yes I remember he was not trying to kill them, but they were under the impression that he was with Chaos at that moment, and he still managed to legitimately make them run off, and that's three heroes.

I'm not so sure about the Lightning tid-bit.

I won't argue with you on that one, but it's hardly a deal breaker given everything else going on in Dissidia. I'd reason, though, that she didn't legitimately try to kill him during their fight at the end of cycle 012.

For one thing, it's stated in-game that she finds Laguna interesting because of his lack of concern for the gods, and for another, she wanted the manikins to be removed from the war. Kefka even kills her for all of this later.

That might explain It, but I still think there's alot of whack going on in Dissidia.

Didn't Yuna and Tifa defeat The Emperor and Ultimecia respectively on the Empyreal Paradox?

And I'm pretty sure Cloud at some point fought Chaos 1-on-1.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes I know, I was simply arguing that ACC Cloud is physicaly equal to ACC Sephiroth, and yes It's very probable that Sephiroth had been holding back on his more "exotic" powers such as telekinesis, teleportation, etc... but by no means did he hold back physicaly on Cloud, he was even getting frustrated that he was not managing to overpower him in that battle.

Oh, they were definitely equally skilled.

But do remember that he wanted a fair fight with Cloud, since Cloud also had no magic, I'd think he wanted to best Cloud on his own, face to face.

Agreed.

I'll definitely have a read on that later.

Let us know what you think.

Yes I remember he was not trying to kill them, but they were under the impression that he was with Chaos at that moment, and he still managed to legitimately make them run off, and that's three heroes.

True enough, though they were probably as concerned with escape as anything else at that point. They had Kuja, Kefka, Ulty, the Emperor and some manikins to concern themselves with.

That might explain It, but I still think there's alot of whack going on in Dissidia.

Didn't Yuna and Tifa defeat The Emperor and Ultimecia respectively on the Empyreal Paradox?

And I'm pretty sure Cloud at some point fought Chaos 1-on-1.

Yuna and Tifa did, indeed, win those battles, yes. Yuna's victory seems believable enough to me. Tifa's victory is odd, though, yeah.

Guess she just got lucky (at least until the battle with the manikins a few minutes later).

As for Cloud, he did fight Chaos one-on-one, but he was easily killed.

 

[Roger]

Yeah, I'm not buying the whole not really trying to kill excuse. These are the most powerful entities in the world getting easily humiliated by humand with a few magical abilities. At no point are we led to believe that Kefka gave Vaan any trouble whatsoever, Kuja wasn't trying to kill but Lightning's gunblade still did what a citysized Alexander failed to do, Dissidia is canon but they reeeeeaaaaaally don't want you to think to hard about how the powerlevels work.

 

[Wolfmania]

Let us know what you think.

I have to say, that was pretty thorough and comphrehensive.

Props to you guys, Dissidia likely is canon.

True enough, though they were probably as concerned with escape as anything else at that point. They had Kuja, Kefka, Ulty, the Emperor and some manikins to concern themselves with.

Didin't Mateus and Ulty only arrive later?

Still, It's just odd that Lightning's battle prowess could potentially surpass the efforts of other three main heroes.

Yuna and Tifa did, indeed, win those battles, yes. Yuna's victory seems believable enough to me. Tifa's victory is odd, though, yeah.

Guess she just got lucky (at least until the battle with the manikins a few minutes later).

Meh, I just think that while canon, the creator's really didn't give much attention to the power of the characters.

As for Cloud, he did fight Chaos one-on-one, but he was easily killed.

Yes, he was killed.

BUT

He did manage to actually defeat a holding back Chaos 1-on-1. Evident by how after the battle Chaos was sitting in his chair looking down, and Cloud being surprised he was still kicking.

While of course Cloud isn't as powerfull as Chaos, It's an abnormally powerfull feat to actually be able to match him; holding back albeitedly.

But I do think Cloud is the strongest protagonist due to insane feats performed in FFVII, AC and DoC so meh.

I just think Dissidia didn't pay attention to power-levels.




Also Kadaj is severly underestimated here. I'd peg him to be as powerfull as th Sephiroth who faced the party in FFVII(considering he's the larval form of the strongest version of Sephiorth in existance), below only Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack and Genesis.

 

[Roger]

Also Kadaj is severly underestimated here. I'd peg him to be as powerfull as th Sephiroth who faced the party in FFVII(considering he's the larval form of the strongest version of Sephiorth in existance), below only Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack and Genesis.

I dunno where I'd place him in relation to VII Sephiroth, but other then that I agree. Kadaj is one of the precious few individuals capable of standing up to AC Cloud for a serious length of time.

 

[Wolfmania]

I dunno where I'd place him in relation to VII Sephiroth, but other then that I agree. Kadaj is one of the precious few individuals capable of standing up to AC Cloud for a serious length of time.

I say such because Vincent heavily implied it in AC; saying Kadaj is a larval form of the current Sephiroth(AC).

And because the Reunion Files imply It themselves:

Now, yes Kadaj was easily defeated in one shot by Cloud in AC, but you have to remember who he is fighting.

Cloud Strife in AC not only is Sephiroth's rival in physical power, but is his rival spiritually as well.

It's not unlikely that AC Cloud is stronger than the end of FFVII party(who even had full control of Chaos with them!), considering statements by Sephiroth, Tifa and Vincent.

Heck, Vincent himself said he didn't want to interfere because he though only Cloud was powerfull enough to destroy Sephiroth in AC.

 

[Roger]

I don't think Vincent had a scouter with him, He had faith in Cloud, based on FFVII, where i presume, he was already doing all the hard work.

 

[Masamune]

You gotta be smokin' some shit to think Dissidia's canon.

That goes for SE, too.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm sure Tres doesn't settle for anything less than the best, Masa

 

[Wolfmania]

I don't think Vincent had a scouter with him, He had faith in Cloud, based on FFVII, where i presume, he was already doing all the hard work.

Meh, Vince sure does seem to have scouter eyes.

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/vincent.php

He admits he's not strong enough and dosen't want the party intefering.

 

[ForceStealer]

I always took that to mean that Cloud was the only one to could do it, regardless of strength. By that I mean, for example, Cloud is more powerful than Vincent, yes, but the crisis presented in Dirge was something that only Vincent could handle due to Chaos' relationship to Omega. So I figured that meant Cloud and Sephiroth's relationship made it such that only Cloud could do it. Even in FF7 it took Cloud to put Sephiroth's will down.

Also, crap all those things are still up over on that site? We should buy it and shut it down so people have to come here Ours is better as it has a timeline at the end though.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I don't think Vincent had a scouter with him, He had faith in Cloud, based on FFVII, where i presume, he was already doing all the hard work.

This.

I doubt Vincent could have made an accurate guess as to how strong Cloud was anyway, since the only times he'd seen him fight so far he'd either been infected with Geostigma, or depressed as all hell. But he could still place faith in Cloud's abilities largely because Cloud has a history of overcoming titanic odds.

Like at Nibelheim. Cloud was worlds below Sephiroth at Nibelheim, and he still took him down. Vincent may have simply had faith in Cloud as a skilled warrior and trusted comrade to get the job done based on the fact that he's really good at it. Its also possible Vincent believed or hoped Cloud would finish Kadaj before Kadaj had a shot to become Sephiroth.

Now, as for Kadaj's own strength. He probably does get less credit than he deserves as far as strength goes. He is certainly a tough guy. But I don't see him as being equal to FFVII Sephiroth. I would put Kadaj's abilities as being above those of a First Class, but still slightly below Zack's peak.

My main reason for this is Sephiroth in FFVII as we know not only has all of his strength from being a SOLDIER, but also has inherited Jenova's abilities. Theres also the knowledge he gained from the Lifestream, but its doubtful that actually increased his combat power in any way. Plus, when you face him at the end of the game his power is even greater than before, or at least it seems to be.

FFVII Sephiroth, IMO, in terms of raw power would still be a challenge for Cloud in AC, if he used the full extent of his powers and abilities instead of limiting hismelf to his physical abilities. That said, Cloud in AC is certainly physicly superior to FFVII Sephiroth.



@Wolfmania. Now, having had some time to think I have revised some of my viewpoints. Firstly, I concede that the physical gap between Cloud and Sephiroth in AC is not as big as I originallya argued. I still believe its there, but its probably a small enough gap that it doesn't really impact things to horribly much. If we said Sephiroth was physicly a 10 for example, Cloud would be a 9.

I also concede its possible Sephiroth was able to use spirit energy to boost his abilities and coutner Omnislash without it being visible. Since he is at his strongest point, I can see him having developed such an ability.

 

[Wolfmania]

I always took that to mean that Cloud was the only one to could do it, regardless of strength. By that I mean, for example, Cloud is more powerful than Vincent, yes, but the crisis presented in Dirge was something that only Vincent could handle due to Chaos' relationship to Omega. So I figured that meant Cloud and Sephiroth's relationship made it such that only Cloud could do it. Even in FF7 it took Cloud to put Sephiroth's will down.

Also, crap all those things are still up over on that site? We should buy it and shut it down so people have to come here

Not what I think exactly.

Notice there's no creator's or character's quote anywhere in DoC or the canon material that explicits only Vincent could've defeated Omega. If, by event had Vincent failed, Cloud could probably just have destroyed Omega himself instead of what Vincent did(which was have Omega and Chaos return to the planet). Vincent pretty much told Cloud he'd handle It, and for him not to worry himself over It.

Now as for Cloud's relation with Sephiroth, that's the thing. His relation with Sephiroth dosen't mean he's the only one who could destroy/fight him. There's no such thing as a prophecy or a spoken bond between them. Cloud is just a man, with S-Cells that hates Sephiroth; as Sephiroth is just a man who hates Cloud more than anything. It's not like JUST Cloud can beat Sephiroth because of they're relationship. As they're relationship has nothing to do with that.

Furthermore, Vincent himself implies this when he uses the word "power".

As in only Cloud has the power to destroy Sephiroth; not because Cloud and Sephiroth's rivalry and relationship of hate, but because Cloud is simply the only one strong enough.

And yes, It took Cloud having to go to the lifestream and beat the crap out of Sephiroth's spirit because Cloud's spirit is so powerful. I doubt anyone else could've challenged Sephiroth's spirit when even Aerith was terrorized of coming near it in the Lifestream.

As for that last part.....lol.

Good luck getting the cash

@Lord Notcis:

This.

I doubt Vincent could have made an accurate guess as to how strong Cloud was anyway, since the only times he'd seen him fight so far he'd either been infected with Geostigma, or depressed as all hell. But he could still place faith in Cloud's abilities largely because Cloud has a history of overcoming titanic odds.

Like at Nibelheim. Cloud was worlds below Sephiroth at Nibelheim, and he still took him down. Vincent may have simply had faith in Cloud as a skilled warrior and trusted comrade to get the job done based on the fact that he's really good at it. Its also possible Vincent believed or hoped Cloud would finish Kadaj before Kadaj had a shot to become Sephiroth.

I doubt that was It considering Vincent outright used the word "power'.

Vincent seemed to know alot of the world's current status; with the information about the stigma, Kadaj, and Sephiroth. So did Tifa, they just knew he got stronger. Hence why Vincent thinks that only Cloud could tackle that Seph; so much that he barrs everyone from trying to interfere.

Now, as for Kadaj's own strength. He probably does get less credit than he deserves as far as strength goes. He is certainly a tough guy. But I don't see him as being equal to FFVII Sephiroth. I would put Kadaj's abilities as being above those of a First Class, but still slightly below Zack's peak.

Well, I already said why I think such. Considering Vincent's information and the Reunion File's quote.

I do think Zack is stronger than him, however. But that's because Zack defeated Genesis Avatar.

My main reason for this is Sephiroth in FFVII as we know not only has all of his strength from being a SOLDIER, but also has inherited Jenova's abilities. Theres also the knowledge he gained from the Lifestream, but its doubtful that actually increased his combat power in any way. Plus, when you face him at the end of the game his power is even greater than before, or at least it seems to be.

His physical power would have increased because of his new body, the more jenova cells he absorbed, etc... Which is why he was stronger at the end.

But Kadaj IS part of AC Sephiroth's spirt, and a larval form of AC Seph; which could qualigy as FFVII Seph, who is the same.

FFVII Sephiroth, IMO, in terms of raw power would still be a challenge for Cloud in AC, if he used the full extent of his powers and abilities instead of limiting hismelf to his physical abilities. That said, Cloud in AC is certainly physicly superior to FFVII Sephiroth.

I think like this as well.

But not if Kadaj is as strong as FFVII. Which certain statements and facts lead me to believe.

@Wolfmania. Now, having had some time to think I have revised some of my viewpoints. Firstly, I concede that the physical gap between Cloud and Sephiroth in AC is not as big as I originallya argued. I still believe its there, but its probably a small enough gap that it doesn't really impact things to horribly much. If we said Sephiroth was physicly a 10 for example, Cloud would be a 9.

I also concede its possible Sephiroth was able to use spirit energy to boost his abilities and coutner Omnislash without it being visible. Since he is at his strongest point, I can see him having developed such an ability.

It would mostly imply that because only Cloud in the movie got auras.

Even when his teammates used limits they got no auras.

Seems like they just didn't want to waste the money in those animations. I'd have you know, AC was EXTREMELY costly to animate when It came to battles.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Theres a flaw in your reasoning I can't let go of. You say Kadaj is equal to FFVII Sephiroth, but is weaker than Zack?

Zack, at his peak was weaker than CC Sephiroth, who is much weaker than his FFVII counterpart. So if we are assming that Zack is stronger than Kadaj, then it is completely and utterly impossible for Kadaj to bbe equal to FFVII Sephiroth.

Its true Zack beat Genesis Avatar, but what does that really tell us? Zack was certainly not at his strongest at this point. Combine four years of atrophy followed by non-stop running and hiing while protecting Cloud, and you can bet that Zack is not at his best.

So his ability to beat Genesis Avatar tells me that Avatar simply wasn't powerful on the same scale as Sephiroth. Potent yes, but not that potent.

In regards to Vincent, I concede the point to you on this one. Now what that says about Cloud's strength, and Sephiroth's for that matter is a bit more open to debate, but it seem probable to me that Vincent did believe Cloud was the only one strong enough for the job.

EDIT: As for the cost of animating the battle scenes, I don't doubt it at all.

 

[Wolfmania]

Theres a flaw in your reasoning I can't let go of. You say Kadaj is equal to FFVII Sephiroth, but is weaker than Zack?

Sorry.

It's my fault for not explaining properly.

Zack, at his peak was weaker than CC Sephiroth, who is much weaker than his FFVII counterpart. So if we are assming that Zack is stronger than Kadaj, then it is completely and utterly impossible for Kadaj to bbe equal to FFVII Sephiroth.

There's the root of the problem.

I believe Zack reached his peak after the experiments.

Why?

Because before them, he was just a regular SOLDIER with J-Cells.

After them, he became a Sephiroth Copy(albeitedly, with S-Cells les pure than Cloud's or Sephiroth's).

And we know S-Cells are a stronger strain than either the G-Cell and the J-Cell strain.

Its true Zack beat Genesis Avatar, but what does that really tell us? Zack was certainly not at his strongest at this point. Combine four years of atrophy followed by non-stop running and hiing while protecting Cloud, and you can bet that Zack is not at his best.

I think before facing Genesis is when Zack reached his peak, because of above experiments.

So his ability to beat Genesis Avatar tells me that Avatar simply wasn't powerful on the same scale as Sephiroth. Potent yes, but not that potent.

I dunno about others but I got the impression that he was around on par with FFVII Sephiroth.

Of course, i have nothing to back that upo except for portrayal.

Or who knows? Kadaj might be stronger than him. He is after all a part of the strongest being in the universe.

In regards to Vincent, I concede the point to you on this one. Now what that says about Cloud's strength, and Sephiroth's for that matter is a bit more open to debate, but it seem probable to me that Vincent did believe Cloud was the only one strong enough for the job.

Yes the quote is referral to Cloud's strenght in AC compared to the parties. Still, It also speaks volumes about how stronger not only Cloud got, but Sephiroth as well.

I mostly use It to factualy prove that Cloud IS stronger than Chaos(because; believe me, there are tons of people who know jack-shit about the compilation and claim otherwise).

This is just Vincent himself claiming to be weaker than Cloud while he has full control of Chaos. Since Dirge tells us he used Chaos in FFVII, and could control It perfectly at the start of DoC. Meaning he probably gained full control of the beast at the end of FFVII.

EDIT: As for the cost of animating the battle scenes, I don't doubt it at all.

Yea, lol.

The Reunion File's full of rant over It.

They especially say they put so little Yazoo because his hair is a pain in the ass to animate in battle and expensive as hell because it has to be animated manually. So you can imagine the more liberties they take on a game's rendered cutscenes than on the expensive CGI movie.