Why did Hojo never tell Sephiroth he was his father?

[Gym Leader Devil]

If I remember in Dirge of Cerebrus she was trying to prove her thesis on Chaos but was laughed by the Shinra Science Department.I was thinking that maybe she also started a relationship with Hojo so he can help prove it right.

Her "thesis" seemed to consist entirely of a retarded sounding Cetra poem and not much else. I'm honestly shocked she was allowed to assist on high level secret projects like the Jenova Project in the first place, tbqh.

I think mainly why Vincent got concerned is because Lucrecia was getting involved with stuff that could have harmed her and her unbron child.He might be a Turk and has probably done some dirty deeds he probably also would have thought a parent would be concerned over their child's well being.

And this is why Vincent is a decent enough guy to be allowed to join the protagonist squad, while no attempt to grant Hojo mercy or a second chance is ever considered. Ever. Lucrecia seems to get a bit of a pass from Vinny cause love makes you stupid. I don't love her, ergo she gets no pass. She married and shagged Hojo, shot herself and the fetus up with alien goo, etc. Chick got off light with the whole frozen in crystal thing.

 

[jazzflower92]

Her "thesis" seemed to consist entirely of a retarded sounding Cetra poem and not much else. I'm honestly shocked she was allowed to assist on high level secret projects like the Jenova Project in the first place, tbqh.



And this is why Vincent is a decent enough guy to be allowed to join the protagonist squad, while no attempt to grant Hojo mercy or a second chance is ever considered. Ever. Lucrecia seems to get a bit of a pass from Vinny cause love makes you stupid. I don't love her, ergo she gets no pass. She married and shagged Hojo, shot herself and the fetus up with alien goo, etc. Chick got off light with the whole frozen in crystal thing.

This brings us back to Sephiroth and makes me wonder about how Lucrecia should have been more alert to the fact that Vincent her bodyguard was more concerned for her child than her husband was.The fact that Hojo was even suggesting to experiment on Sephiroth really should have shown her how much lines he is willing to push in the name of science.Instead of listening to her morals(Vincent) she instead listens to her love of science(Hojo).In the end by stomping on her morals she sacrificed her son's future and the world's safety because of selfishness.

There is one of the biggiest things about Hojo I hate is the fact that his parenting is all based on a selfish desire for science and doesn't care who gets hurt in order to achieve those results.However,I think that is why he chose Lucrecia because she does at time displays moments of selfishness which can be easily manipulated to gain a child to experiment on.As far as parents go I think Sephiroth ironically would choose Jenova over Lucrecia and Hojo who chose selfishness over the concern of their own child.Although with Lucrecia she did show regret but with Hojo he is just a straight up sociopath that would do it again.

 

[ForceStealer]

And even Lucrecia's "regret" is entirely based on maternal instincts. She just wants to know to her son. Honorable desires, but she never really shows any remorse for what their experiments truly bore (though, in her defense, she may not know).

But don't go painting Jenova as a more suitable parent that Sephiroth would run to. Even if she weren't braindead have she would killed Sephiroth just like everyone else if she were able.

 

[jazzflower92]

And even Lucrecia's "regret" is entirely based on maternal instincts. She just wants to know to her son. Honorable desires, but she never really shows any remorse for what their experiments truly bore (though, in her defense, she may not know).

But don't go painting Jenova as a more suitable parent that Sephiroth would run to. Even if she weren't braindead have she would killed Sephiroth just like everyone else if she were able.

But remember Sephiroth can control Jenova so she would never be able to do that.She did try to gain control over Sephiroth but his will was stronger than hers.

As for Hojo I think its ouright stated through his actions that he sees the world as one big experiment that he can get his hands on.I also wonder what would he have gained from possessing Omega was he going to planet hop somewhere else so he can continue his reign of terror and evil in the name of science.

 

[Roger]

Like Aerith and Cloud's names, the fact that he is Sephiroth's father is one of those useless little details of his experiments that he forgets for large spaces of time.

 

[jazzflower92]

Like Aerith and Cloud's names, the fact that he is Sephiroth's father is one of those useless little details of his experiments that he forgets for large spaces of time.

Yeah,him performing horrible experiments and doing evil deeds is just another Tuesday for him.The fact he forgets that he is a father just shows how much he really doesn't care unless there is pain or suffering in the name of science.

I think his obssession with science is actually an extension of his sociopathic behavior.Whenever he does an experiment he seems to try to make it as painful as possible.Now I really can see why Hojo got so interested in Jenova because she is basically destruction wrapped up in a way he can exploit his evil scientific curiosity.

 

[Splintered]

Sephiroth's an experiment, he probably only gave him the information he would need to pursue power. Why else call Jenova his mother, he could have easily not told him anything. I think at some point, he wanted Sephiroth to discover who he was, and giving Sephiroth human ties would go against what he wanted. Also he just didn't care.

As far as Lucrecia is concerned, I think anyone who works at Shinra's Science Department has got to have some serious fucking moral issues. Ghast seemed like a pretty cool guy, but he must have known what they were doing with the Jenova project. And for awhile to, since it seemed Sephiroth knew him. Then again that timeline might be messed up. He left, but only after Shinra had Ilfana. Or at least that was what my impression was.

Then there's Angeal's mom, who seemed sweet but was revealed to have been a part of the G project. She also experimented with her children, but seemed to also have genuinely loved him.

You can even look at Reeve, his intentions were far less reprehensible since it was for the good of the people rather than the pursuit of science, but even he staid despite all the crap he knew they were doing.

I think Lucrecia was the same, she was willing to look the other way because she got wrapped up with her pursuit of science. It wasn't until there was something personal at stake did any of these people leave, Ghast for Ilfana and Angeal's mom for her son. It was stupid but if they are passionate for something and Shinra was the only one that had the resources, they were willing to make a deal with the devil so to speak.

DoC really soured my opinion of Lucrecia, tbh. I mean, I was never a huge fan but I did find it tragic, not in the bad things happen to good people way but the kind of tragedy that was completely avoidable but caused by a fatal flaw of the character that brought their downfall. DoC's narrative was kind of a mess.

I did have pity for Lucrecia, at least before. I mean, living in state where you can't move forward, can't end your pain, and to live in a perpetual state of regret because you believe your child is dead, yeah, that would suck. Even if it is in some weird way deserved.

 

[jazzflower92]

Sephiroth's an experiment, he probably only gave him the information he would need to pursue power. Why else call Jenova his mother, he could have easily not told him anything. I think at some point, he wanted Sephiroth to discover who he was, and giving Sephiroth human ties would go against what he wanted. Also he just didn't care.

As far as Lucrecia is concerned, I think anyone who works at Shinra's Science Department has got to have some serious fucking moral issues. Ghast seemed like a pretty cool guy, but he must have known what they were doing with the Jenova project. And for awhile to, since it seemed Sephiroth knew him. Then again that timeline might be messed up. He left, but only after Shinra had Ilfana. Or at least that was what my impression was.

Then there's Angeal's mom, who seemed sweet but was revealed to have been a part of the G project. She also experimented with her children, but seemed to also have genuinely loved him.

You can even look at Reeve, his intentions were far less reprehensible since it was for the good of the people rather than the pursuit of science, but even he staid despite all the crap he knew they were doing.

I think Lucrecia was the same, she was willing to look the other way because she got wrapped up with her pursuit of science. It wasn't until there was something personal at stake did any of these people leave, Ghast for Ilfana and Angeal's mom for her son. It was stupid but if they are passionate for something and Shinra was the only one that had the resources, they were willing to make a deal with the devil so to speak.

DoC really soured my opinion of Lucrecia, tbh. I mean, I was never a huge fan but I did find it tragic, not in the bad things happen to good people way but the kind of tragedy that was completely avoidable but caused by a fatal flaw of the character that brought their downfall. DoC's narrative was kind of a mess.

I did have pity for Lucrecia, at least before. I mean, living in state where you can't move forward, can't end your pain, and to live in a perpetual state of regret because you believe your child is dead, yeah, that would suck. Even if it is in some weird way deserved.

I think with all this in mind I have a good gut feeling that Hojo wanted his son to be a ticking time bomb that would eventually explode from finding out the truth.Out of all the people who experimented on their children Hojo was the least moral of them all.After all this time he still sees his own child as an experiment to test his theories even at the sake of the world.

But yeah working with Shinra is basically a deal with the devil or in the case of Hojo allowing them to let you get away with murder.I still can't fathom how could parents allow their children to be experimented on and treated like objects to be used.I know the project was used to create artifiail Cetra but the fact that they didn't really know about what Jenova was does really show the lack of insight they had.Just because they could do these experiments doesn't mean they should have.And most of all don't leave the Science Department in the hands of a man who should be kept from society.Then again this is Shinra we are talking about who have used children in their experiments without any regret.Just look at Deepground and see how messed up the Tsviets who were born there.In Shinra you have to put away your morals in order to get results.

 

[Roger]

Well Gast headed the Jenova Project and the project was to create an Ancient. I imagine Gast was the one that told Sephiroth his mother was Jenova and have that be the only thing he knew about his parents, cause they wanted him to pursue that thought.

 

[Unlucky]

I fucking hate Lucrecia. That is all.

Some tidbit you might be interested in:

In the Early Material Files included with the Ultimania Omega guide (scenes and ideas that were ultimately cut or changed in the final product of Final Fantasy VII), Vincent's section mentions that Lucrecia was originally "on Vincent's side", drugged by Hojo, and forced into experimentation against her will. However, in the game's final version (and Compilation canon), she was clearly a willing participant, though she also shows signs of turmoil over choosing such.

I don't know how reliable that info from FFWiki is, though.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well Gast headed the Jenova Project and the project was to create an Ancient. I imagine Gast was the one that told Sephiroth his mother was Jenova and have that be the only thing he knew about his parents, cause they wanted him to pursue that thought.

I don't know I think being told Jenova was Sephiroth's mother is more like Hojo's handywork.Gast did head the Jenova Project but stopped when he met Ifana and learned the truth.Gast left when Sephiroth was real young so it could be more evidence for Hojo's dirty work.

 

[Roger]

I don't know I think being told Jenova was Sephiroth's mother is more like Hojo's handywork.Gast did head the Jenova Project but stopped when he met Ifana and learned the truth.Gast left when Sephiroth was real young so it could be more evidence for Hojo's dirty work.

It's not really "dirty work" Lucretia and Hojo intended for Sephiroth to be an Ancient from the start and the experiment was deemed a success based on, something about Sephiroth (not sure what it was that made him such an awesome baby), feeling Jenova was his true parent wouldn't have been much of stretch by this point.

 

[jazzflower92]

It's not really "dirty work" Lucretia and Hojo intended for Sephiroth to be an Ancient from the start and the experiment was deemed a success based on, something about Sephiroth (not sure what it was that made him such an awesome baby), feeling Jenova was his true parent wouldn't have been much of stretch by this point.

I don't know I have a feeling that Lucrecia did want to be apart of her son's life and probably would not have been pleased that they would lie that Jenova was his birth mother.But yeah the erasing of Lucrecia from the project seems more like Hojo's handiwork mostly because even though I do see Gast being morally ambigious because he worked for Shinra he still had some standards.

The Ancient part is something that Gast defiantly wanted but the lying about his parentage seems more like Hojo's work.

 

[Roger]

I don't know I have a feeling that Lucrecia did want to be apart of her son's life and probably would not have been pleased that they would lie that Jenova was his birth mother.But yeah the erasing of Lucrecia from the project seems more like Hojo's handiwork mostly because even though I do see Gast being morally ambigious because he worked for Shinra he still had some standards.

The Ancient part is something that Gast defiantly wanted but the lying about his parentage seems more like Hojo's work.

Well as of DoC/CC Lucretia was around for Sephiroth's youth probably longer then Gast did, so.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well as of DoC/CC Lucretia was around for Sephiroth's youth probably longer then Gast did, so.

I don't know they just showed Lucrecia in front of the tube with Vincent after she gave birth to Sephiroth.It seems more likely she dissapeared when he was still an infant.I mean why would she stay around if they weren't even going to let her be apart of her son's life.I still think its more probable that she vanished a little while after Sephiroth's birth and left the recordings for Vincent to find years later.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Official timelines say that Vincent was shot by Hojo 23 years before FFVII, while Sephiroth was born 25-30 years before.

 

[Octo]

Wait, I'm confused. Does this mean that she did get to see Seph and all that stuff about not seeing him was bollocks? (or retconned?)

Also she has stupid hair. Seriously, I only ever did science at GCSE level and even I know a massively long ponytail is a liability in a lab situation

 

[jazzflower92]

Official timelines say that Vincent was shot by Hojo 23 years before FFVII, while Sephiroth was born 25-30 years before.

I don't know Square has been known to contradict their own stuff very often.Remember Vincent got shot when he voiced his complaints that Lucrecia was getting weak from the experiment.I mean in Dirge of Cerebrus we see him go after Hojo after Lucrecia has visions of Sephiroth which caused her pain.I mean why would he go after Hojo after Sephiroth is born.

This why I think Square is lousy at their timelines because they really don't match at all with what happened in the games.

 

[ForceStealer]

No, Lucrecia never saw him. Hojo kept him from her. Even in Dirge of Cerberus.

Jazzflower, how do you know Vincent confronted him before the birth? And why would he stop caring just because Sephiroth was born?

 

[jazzflower92]

No, Lucrecia never saw him. Hojo kept him from her. Even in Dirge of Cerberus.

Jazzflower, how do you know Vincent confronted him before the birth? And why would he stop caring just because Sephiroth was born?

Yes,I know Hojo kept Sephiroth from Lucrecia.But remember specifically in Dirge Of Cerebrus that Lucrecia was having those visions while she was still pregnant with Sephiroth.Then he confronted Hojo when he was getting concerned about Lucrecia's health.I mean it does say in the Ultimanas he was concerned about Lucrecia during her pregnancy.

Also remember the scene in Dirge Of Cerebrus when Lurecia was crying to see Sephiroth that was a dead giveaway that Vincent confronted Hojo before he was born.Also Vincent was in the tank while Lucrecia was begging to see her son.

The main thing is that he was concerned about Lucrecia's health so why would he be concerned about her health after she has given birth.And even the cutscenes in the original game show how he voiced his complaints while she was pregnant.Also a never key thing is the fact that if Lucrecia never saw Sephiroth how would have Vincent have seen him at all.Vincent was put into the tank before Sephiroth was born as seen in DOC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUtpAyjWZxc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ERzSNrtY3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGHObhB31jo

 

[ForceStealer]

My first sentence was a response to Octo.

I don't see how the visions enter into your point. DC's flashbacks jump around. And Vincent is in the tube when she's asking to see her son...but why does that mean Sephiroth was only born AFTER he was in the tube?

 

[jazzflower92]

My first sentence was a response to Octo.

I don't see how the visions enter into your point. DC's flashbacks jump around. And Vincent is in the tube when she's asking to see her son...but why does that mean Sephiroth was only born AFTER he was in the tube?

I know they jump around but remember in the first game the scene where Lucrecia falls down during her pregnancy.Then afterwards Vicnent confronts Hojo and then Hojo shoots him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2GgaX1Dn7s

 

[Splintered]

I'm torn, I don't remember most of anything from DoC, probably because I blocked it out. So I feel the need to take out my PS2 and replay this game to remind me what's going, but I also know that I really, really don't want to play that freaking game again.

 

[ForceStealer]

Didn't we determine or see in an Ultimania or something that her falling down in the Nibelheim Inn was her going into labor? I seem to remember us having that discussion fairly recently. Tres?

 

[jazzflower92]

I do wonder if Lucrecia thought at first she was going to be able to raise Sephiroth only to have him snatched at birth and be taken to Shinra without even holding him.

This is where I really can say Lucrecia really should have known better.And for someone who is supposed to be a scientist she makes really dumb decisions based on selfish ambition and often short sighted thinking.

I also wonder if Hojo wanted Sephiroth growing up without the knowledge of his true parentage or him and Lucrecia having any involvement because that would keep Sephiroth from reaching his full potential.So,instead of treating Sephiroth like his child he treats him like all his experiments and keeps him as a ward of Shinra.