The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
- Status
- AKA
- hitoshura
someone please find me a boyfriend and then kill him so i can have some love beyond death
or me, kill me now
or me, kill me now
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
But for real.
Here's a topic about when the remake will come out with a $150 prize for who gets it right. I haven't yet but you should post in there with a guess. Couldn't hurt, right?
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/guessing-game-when-will-we-get-the-remake.21344/
Here's a topic about the latest trailer. You should post your thoughts. Even if it's about Cloud and Aerith, I'm sure people would love to hear your thoughts:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/new-trailer-state-of-play-may-2019.21417/
Have some hopes for the remake? Talk about them here:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-gameplay-combat.17053/
Game of Thrones topic is here. Idk if you're into it but most people are so:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/game-of-thrones.7023/
Seen Detective Pikachu?
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/detective-pikachu-the-live-action-movie.18936/
Those are just a few topics I think you might be interested in. You put so much time and effort into this topic. You should expand your horizons here and split it among other topics.
There were two authors behind that "LOVE TRIANGLE OVER LUL" article. One of them doesn't post here anymore and the other posted an apology and a retraction so there's no reason to be upset about that anymore. Try posting elsewhere and just see what this site has to offer as a whole. I bet you'll like what you find.
EDIT
I see your profile, and see that you've already started posting in other threads. It's nice to see you're giving everything a chance here. Hopefully you stick around and post more in other places. I bet a lot of people would like to hear from you.
Here's a topic about when the remake will come out with a $150 prize for who gets it right. I haven't yet but you should post in there with a guess. Couldn't hurt, right?
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/guessing-game-when-will-we-get-the-remake.21344/
Here's a topic about the latest trailer. You should post your thoughts. Even if it's about Cloud and Aerith, I'm sure people would love to hear your thoughts:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/new-trailer-state-of-play-may-2019.21417/
Have some hopes for the remake? Talk about them here:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-gameplay-combat.17053/
Game of Thrones topic is here. Idk if you're into it but most people are so:
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/game-of-thrones.7023/
Seen Detective Pikachu?
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/detective-pikachu-the-live-action-movie.18936/
Those are just a few topics I think you might be interested in. You put so much time and effort into this topic. You should expand your horizons here and split it among other topics.
There were two authors behind that "LOVE TRIANGLE OVER LUL" article. One of them doesn't post here anymore and the other posted an apology and a retraction so there's no reason to be upset about that anymore. Try posting elsewhere and just see what this site has to offer as a whole. I bet you'll like what you find.
EDIT
I see your profile, and see that you've already started posting in other threads. It's nice to see you're giving everything a chance here. Hopefully you stick around and post more in other places. I bet a lot of people would like to hear from you.
Last edited:
SailorStarDust
Kept you waiting, huh?
- AKA
- SSD
My one and only reply to these taken out of context copy/pastes*: Tifa and Aerith seem to have a strong spiritual bond too, with Tifa (and Marlene!) sensing Aerith in both VII and Advent Children at various points near the ending(s). For that matter, where did anybody state Cloud is just some horn-dog? 
You can love multiple people to the same degree throughout your life, and it doesn't mean you care for any of them any less? Does talking about relationships in a real life context seriously have to get thrown out the window in these discussions?
*I've gotten into this debate 3 times in the past, so yeah. Fourth time's the charm is more than enough for me
Anyway, I do find the Love Triangle Debate a fascinating topic in terms of character personalities, motivations and relationships. But these 22+ year old copy/paste aspects? Not so much. A year ago I read the mid-2000's LTD threads and I'm slightly surprised to see it's the same old, same old.
My viewpoint ever since '97 has been Clerith = Disc 1, CloTi = Disc 2/3 whereas VII's Zerith has subtle visual/language cues, but still there (which Nojima obviously expanded upon with Compilation). Then again, I've always felt like an outlier with liking both Clerith and CloTi (my personal preference CloTi) and feeling the real Love Triangle Debate has always been Zerith "vs" Clerith.
Because let's be real, these 4 characters all have tons of love/respect for each other (Cloud and Zack as best friends with their respective sweethearts as best friends
) and would just want each other to be happy, regardless of who ended up with who.
Because the both 25th Ultimania and the Compilation project was rather blunt about Zerith and CloTi as respective endgame, I could see this being the case for Remake, too. Zack/Aerith I'd argue was, again, visually subtle language, but still 100% there in the Complete cut of Advent Children.
What especially has intrigued about Remake, is the Nojima-written(??) Aerith monologue from the 30th Anniversary Exhibit. It was pretty Zerith-heavy with Aerith almost resigning herself to falling for Cloud. And then in last week's new Remake trailer, Aerith's eyes seemingly fall to the Buster Sword when first meeting Cloud. (I've wanted Aerith and Tifa to silently acknowledge something like this (Zack stuff) for years!) Remake is going to be a very interesting time, and I definitely think things will be driven home a bit more, even if its sticking to visual subtleties of Completion. Personally, I'd be 100% fine with a non-optional Aerith date, provided Highwind Tifa high affection automatically happens in-game, too.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just a delulu CloTi that's been accused of "spreading misinformation" when sharing factually translated materials
You can love multiple people to the same degree throughout your life, and it doesn't mean you care for any of them any less? Does talking about relationships in a real life context seriously have to get thrown out the window in these discussions?*I've gotten into this debate 3 times in the past, so yeah. Fourth time's the charm is more than enough for me
Anyway, I do find the Love Triangle Debate a fascinating topic in terms of character personalities, motivations and relationships. But these 22+ year old copy/paste aspects? Not so much. A year ago I read the mid-2000's LTD threads and I'm slightly surprised to see it's the same old, same old.
My viewpoint ever since '97 has been Clerith = Disc 1, CloTi = Disc 2/3 whereas VII's Zerith has subtle visual/language cues, but still there (which Nojima obviously expanded upon with Compilation). Then again, I've always felt like an outlier with liking both Clerith and CloTi (my personal preference CloTi) and feeling the real Love Triangle Debate has always been Zerith "vs" Clerith.
Because let's be real, these 4 characters all have tons of love/respect for each other (Cloud and Zack as best friends with their respective sweethearts as best friends
) and would just want each other to be happy, regardless of who ended up with who.Because the both 25th Ultimania and the Compilation project was rather blunt about Zerith and CloTi as respective endgame, I could see this being the case for Remake, too. Zack/Aerith I'd argue was, again, visually subtle language, but still 100% there in the Complete cut of Advent Children.
What especially has intrigued about Remake, is the Nojima-written(??) Aerith monologue from the 30th Anniversary Exhibit. It was pretty Zerith-heavy with Aerith almost resigning herself to falling for Cloud. And then in last week's new Remake trailer, Aerith's eyes seemingly fall to the Buster Sword when first meeting Cloud. (I've wanted Aerith and Tifa to silently acknowledge something like this (Zack stuff) for years!) Remake is going to be a very interesting time, and I definitely think things will be driven home a bit more, even if its sticking to visual subtleties of Completion. Personally, I'd be 100% fine with a non-optional Aerith date, provided Highwind Tifa high affection automatically happens in-game, too.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just a delulu CloTi that's been accused of "spreading misinformation" when sharing factually translated materials
- AKA
- Minato
Cloud loves his mother, she's not in this debate because whether Cloud loves them is not the question. Cloud is bonded to Sephiroth and explicietly wishes him to be in his memories at the end of AC. Still not a reason for him to be a part of the love triangle. Generally these questions are about which character are/were/will be in a romantic relationship with each other. Cloud and Aerith didn't happen, and will continue to not happen after the end of the game.
At the end of AC Zack tells Cloud that unlike Kadaj, Cloud does not have a place there. Here being where Kadaj, Zack and Aerith are. He's meant to be somewhere else. In the land of the living. Living his life. Cloud can keep Aerith and Sephiroth in his memories but he still needs to live his life seperate from them.
I have my problems with Advent Children but I'll give it credit for having a slightly healthier message then "do not move on: kill yourself like Dyne or obsess until your love turns to violent hate like Shuyin." Ashe, Barret and Laguna not finding someone else in the narrative of their games story I do not take as a declaration from SE that they won't, can't and shouldn't. With Cloud, unlike Yuna and Tidus's narrative, there is someone else in his life. Always has been someone else in his life. Aerith laments about wanting to meet the real Cloud, which she ultimately never did in life. He made up this fake persona because the real Cloud he felt wasn't impressive enough for this other girl. (after Aerith's death he would discover this not to be the case) So the sequel doesn't overturn Aerith's ending in the sequel story to give a happy ending like Tidus.
In general I don't agree with your definition of love but you're welcome to it.
As for Vincent, Lucretia is not dead. They're both immortal, that crystal is not. And wasn't even a existing factor in the original game. I don't personally think Dirge of Cerberus portrays Vincent's approach to his situation as healthy until he changes his tune at the end of the game and goes outside to get some sunshine and smell the roses but one should admit it's a different situation.
At the end of AC Zack tells Cloud that unlike Kadaj, Cloud does not have a place there. Here being where Kadaj, Zack and Aerith are. He's meant to be somewhere else. In the land of the living. Living his life. Cloud can keep Aerith and Sephiroth in his memories but he still needs to live his life seperate from them.
I have my problems with Advent Children but I'll give it credit for having a slightly healthier message then "do not move on: kill yourself like Dyne or obsess until your love turns to violent hate like Shuyin." Ashe, Barret and Laguna not finding someone else in the narrative of their games story I do not take as a declaration from SE that they won't, can't and shouldn't. With Cloud, unlike Yuna and Tidus's narrative, there is someone else in his life. Always has been someone else in his life. Aerith laments about wanting to meet the real Cloud, which she ultimately never did in life. He made up this fake persona because the real Cloud he felt wasn't impressive enough for this other girl. (after Aerith's death he would discover this not to be the case) So the sequel doesn't overturn Aerith's ending in the sequel story to give a happy ending like Tidus.
In general I don't agree with your definition of love but you're welcome to it.
As for Vincent, Lucretia is not dead. They're both immortal, that crystal is not. And wasn't even a existing factor in the original game. I don't personally think Dirge of Cerberus portrays Vincent's approach to his situation as healthy until he changes his tune at the end of the game and goes outside to get some sunshine and smell the roses but one should admit it's a different situation.
To the uninitiated - while it can be an interesting topic to discuss, there is a long and winding history surrounding the Love Triangle Debate and TLS itself. I would urge caution in treading down a path when someone has a predefined view of said debate and is clearly unwilling to discuss anything they've posted, because you will not change their mind. When it comes to said people, do not engage.
Clerith shippers are welcome
Cloti shippers are welcome
Friendly discussion is welcome
Copypasta from years past (that has already been debated) is not welcome. Continue down this path and you will be thread banned (again).
Clerith shippers are welcome
Cloti shippers are welcome
Friendly discussion is welcome
Copypasta from years past (that has already been debated) is not welcome. Continue down this path and you will be thread banned (again).
- AKA
- hitoshura
what an extraordinary claim, soul bond? melded completely? it's a huge leap to get that even from the quote provided, which has already been discussed down the dark decades of this topic. the translation of which i've critiqued before, because none of this stuff is new if it's just going to be recycled from other people. which is the problem with just copying some old essay or forum post from years ago, it says nothing new.
this hasn't been a pleasant topic and it's been full of bad blood and rabidness, but that was the past. time has moved on, it's 2019 and there's really no need to go trawling up old posts saying stuff like this:
what ridiculous claims to make over shipping video game characters, hinged on what is one interpretation of 'love' as if you can have a single definition of that (and one that conveniently suits the ship being pushed). in addition to being generally horrible to people in the real world and the experiences of life. does a widow(er) whose partner died young and who later starts another relationship have 'no concept of love and has never been in love' because they didn't 'wait forever or search for a way to be with' their dead partner? if a guy moves on from a dead partner they're just 'hormone-driven' and just thinking about sex? what a gross way to cast judgements on actual people's lives just because someone said mean or churlish things about a fictional relationship you happen to like. you can find those 'necrophilia' comments distasteful and all but come the fuck on.
is making posts using language like that, as a new poster, the best way to get your point across? what sort of discussion is meant to be inspired by posting old screeds with no new commentary (beyond the bizarre 'GET SOME')?
nowadays i find the least interesting kind of fiction discussion the ones where it's just a bunch of data points gathered without nuance or looking any deeper. just looking at a long list of quotes is so boring and nerd spaces seem especially fond of this approach ('no meaning, only lore'). simple fact finding is fine for some things (you don't need a deep read for basic stats like cloud's height) and it's good to have examples from the text to base interpretations on, but maybe that whole 'cloud and aerith's souls are bonded completely and melded together with no secrets from each other' is a bit of an extraordinary reach even from that nomura quote.
to build on what roger posted, listing off a bunch of other 'love beyond death' couples seems impressive if all you're going for is a list of names but it's not really a positive thing if you actually look at them in context
- elmyra is a minor character whose inner life isn't really explored outside her relationship with aerith so it's hard to draw much from her character and if it was her preference not to move on
- barret's anger at losing his wife and village lead him to becoming a terrorist willing to allow innocent people to die for his cause, after that conflict is resolved i don't recall anything indicating that he's decided never to move on
- dyne became an out-and-out murderer until he was killed to stop him, his only resolution regarding his wife being in a little spin off story where he dissolves into the mass of souls in the lifestream
- vincent isolated himself from the world and wasn't visiting lucrecia's cave for pleasant visits for fun, he was there out of guilt and self-punishment
and the other examples (i'm ignoring the ffviii stuff because i never defeated the last boss and never felt like i earned watching the ending and i've forgotten a lot of the story):
- shuyin tried to destroy the world over his lost love
- ashe was driven by a desire for revenge after rasler died which wasn't portrayed as a character strength in the story, it was used to manipulate her, and iirc neither the ending nor the sequel imply she intends to never move on from rasler
- i get this post was written years ago, but seeing tidus/yuna after the novel and audio drama, oh boy oh geez
a lot of these examples of characters' 'love beyond death' is accompanied by a lot of negative actions and consequences. dyne is a particularly strange example, as is shuyin. these examples aren't portrayed as wholesome, they tend to involve suffering for the characters and those around them (i will exclude elmyra from this as she doesn't get much exploration). these are part of the arc the characters have to go through to grow, something they overcome or resolve. there's more to the stories that just 'oh, these characters had the same relationship,' pointing out random factoids like 'dyne has a dead wife' without looking at the context.
i think you miss a lot if you just do a surface reading. the ending of advent children sticks out to me, as that gets used as proof for cloud and aerith and it just seems like such a simplistic way of viewing the scene. there's a language to visual storytelling and i don't think it's very esoteric or hard to grasp. 'dead character walking away from the alive protagonist into a white light' doesn't tend to portray 'these characters are going to go and continue a relationship' so much as them parting ways. cloud is standing still, aerith is walking away from him into the light. zack is there and walking in the same direction as aerith, an odd choice if it's meant to be a romantic moment for cloud and aerith only. pointing to cloud saying 'i'm not alone anymore' and taking that to mean he's going off to be with aerith just because he said that in response to her ignores the emotional conflict of the film, which was cloud isolating himself from the (living) people around him. he says this while surrounded by those people, and aerith is walking away into the light with zack. one reading makes more sense taken in context, and doesn't rely on stuff like 'cloud is riding a motorbike in the credits and aerith is shown separately alone in a field so he must be going to meet her' (or the advent children complete version which removes the shot of aerith in favour of a clip montage of scenes from the film, and you have to point at a lens flare and say it's actually aerith's ribbon miles up in the air).
my point is basically lists of isolated minutia is dull and a holistic reading of the text and now i'm going to bed
Zack and Cloud are not best friends. Fight me.
I'm not denying that they're friends. Zack explicitly says that he considers anybody he's gone on a couple of missions with to be a friend. His definition of friend is pretty broad. Tseng is his friend. Hell, Kunsel is his friend. And Cloud's attitude towards Zack is as much hero worship s friendship. I don't even see why they need to be best friends in order for their story to be meaningful. If somebody gives their life for you, do they and their sacrifice become less significant in your life and memory because they weren't previously your best friend? Zack saved Cloud because that's the kind of guy he is: nobody gets left behind. If it had been Tseng in that sidecar instead of Cloud, Zack would have saved him too.
I'm not denying that they're friends. Zack explicitly says that he considers anybody he's gone on a couple of missions with to be a friend. His definition of friend is pretty broad. Tseng is his friend. Hell, Kunsel is his friend. And Cloud's attitude towards Zack is as much hero worship s friendship. I don't even see why they need to be best friends in order for their story to be meaningful. If somebody gives their life for you, do they and their sacrifice become less significant in your life and memory because they weren't previously your best friend? Zack saved Cloud because that's the kind of guy he is: nobody gets left behind. If it had been Tseng in that sidecar instead of Cloud, Zack would have saved him too.
- AKA
- Minato
Cloud doesn't call Zack his hero, he just calls him his friend. And Zack didn't just save Cloud, he wanted to start a business with him, and kept appearing to him after having entered the afterlife. They don't need to be best friends but I feel it does work better if they are closer then most of the hundreds of coworkers they had each worked with during theirs at Shinra.
- AKA
- Fancy
^that is, I'll fight alongside you...
I never understood why folks would jump to that assumption. Well, that's a lie—I understand given Zack's appearances over the Compilation, from urging on Cloud in AC(C) and being a 'ghost' that walks away with Aerith to being the Bestest Good Guy Hero™ in CC and someone that Cloud clearly looks up to. We understand from these appearances that Zack is a significant person in Cloud's life, and it's easy to rationalise that they must've been really close. But we have no proof of this. We only know that they worked for the same company and inevitably crossed paths a couple of times and shared mutual, traumatic experiences together which is a special bond in and of itself. Like vets who survived the same war fighting in the same division. Only they and few others can understand that unique experience and that sort of bond can, indeed, be intense and powerful. But a prerequisite for such a bond is not being BFFs4Lyfe. It can certainly lead to it, but Zack sorta died before that could happen...
nb4 'a friendship beyond death' and also no one else is allowed to be Cloud's best friend because he only gets one, don't you know that's how real life works.
And whilst I'm on this tangent, I was never convinced that Tifa and Aerith were BFFs either (which is another popular fanon that goes around I reckon). Did they even have time to become besties? Doesn't the timeline of the game happen over the course of like a month? Or, better yet, a fortnight lmao? Again, like Zack and Cloud, they've shared and undergone a unique and perilous experience, which certainly bonds people, but yeah. idk man.
@Roger re: starting a business together. Ain't that something of a stretch? I'm pretty sure Zack was just talking out of his ass to pass the time, basking in the glow of having escaped Hojo's clutches and nearly getting to their goal. It was all... I forget the technical term for it. Not small talk but something close to it. Like if you and I were talking about elephants and I was like, "Hey we should open a petting zoo." and you were like, "Lol haha oh fancy you're so full of shit." and I'd be, "lmao inorite." and we'd forget about it.
nb4 this gets sectioned off into 'The Best Friend Debate'
Last edited:
The Platonic LTD
Yeah I'm not convinced by the Aerith and Tifa BFF thing either. Nor am I convinced that Aerith was such a hugely influential figure in Marlene's life, given that they knew each other for precisely the time it took to walk from Seventh Heaven to Aerith's house. Or maybe not even that far, depending on when Tseng picked them up. She can have personally known Aerith for what, an hour tops. No doubt this little girl has come under the influence of all the adults around her and their mythologising of this person who died (we all mythologise people who have died), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she wears that ribbon in her hair because Tifa is the one who does her hair for her.
Yeah I'm not convinced by the Aerith and Tifa BFF thing either. Nor am I convinced that Aerith was such a hugely influential figure in Marlene's life, given that they knew each other for precisely the time it took to walk from Seventh Heaven to Aerith's house. Or maybe not even that far, depending on when Tseng picked them up. She can have personally known Aerith for what, an hour tops. No doubt this little girl has come under the influence of all the adults around her and their mythologising of this person who died (we all mythologise people who have died), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she wears that ribbon in her hair because Tifa is the one who does her hair for her.
- AKA
- Minato
View attachment 3046
View attachment 3047
^that is, I'll fight alongside you...
I never understood why folks would jump to that assumption. Well, that's a lie—I understand given Zack's appearances over the Compilation, from urging on Cloud in AC(C) and being a 'ghost' that walks away with Aerith to being the Bestest Good Guy Hero™ in CC and someone that Cloud clearly looks up to. We understand from these appearances that Zack is a significant person in Cloud's life, and it's easy to rationalise that they must've been really close. But we have no proof of this. We only know that they worked for the same company and inevitably crossed paths a couple of times and shared mutual, traumatic experiences together which is a special bond in and of itself. Like vets who survived the same war fighting in the same division. Only they and few others can understand that unique experience and that sort of bond can, indeed, be intense and powerful. But a prerequisite for such a bond is not being BFFs4Lyfe. It can certainly lead to it, but Zack sorta died before that could happen...
@Roger re: starting a business together. Ain't that something of a stretch? I'm pretty sure Zack was just talking out of his ass to pass the time, basking in the glow of having escaped from Hojo's clutches and nearly getting to their goal. It was all... I forget the technical term for it.
He's small talking perhaps, but he's including Cloud in this vision and not the old man driving them. By your description the old man is exactly as close a friend to Zack as Cloud is.
And again, Cloud says they were friends in OG, this hero worship is what the Compilation adds to the mix.
As for saving Cloud because that's just the kind guy is. Cloud is the one that starts communicating with Zack about their escape attempt. They both take it for granted that if they are getting out of there, it's gonna be together. The whole Angeal vision is another Compilation offering.
"He's small talking perhaps, but he's including Cloud in this vision and not the old man driving them. By your description the old man is exactly as close a friend to Zack as Cloud is."
How so? He's talking to Cloud, he's not talking to the old guy. Zack may be seriously planning his future in this dialogue, or he may just be shooting the breeze the way a guy like Zack does. In any case, it's clear that it's to Cloud that he addresses the question, "Hey, wanna start a business? But what could we do?" Of course he gets no response from Cloud. When the Old Guy replies, it's pretty obvious he doesn't think he's being invited to join Zack in his new career as a mercenary. Zack then says:
Zack: So, Cloud? What are YOU gonna do?
Driver: No, wait... you got it all wrong.
Cloud: u... uhhh......
Zack: Just kidding... I won't leave you hanging like that. [He sits down next to Cloud.] ...We're friends, right? Mercenaries, Cloud. That's what you an' me are gonna be. Understand, Cloud?
But according to you, either we acknowledge that Zack and Cloud are BEST FRIENDS or we have to agree that he's inviting the Old Guy to join him in their mercenary business. Because only BEST FRIENDS would suggest forming a business together - not, say, two fugitives who were friendly once upon a mission and now find themselves thrown together by circumstances and struggling to survive while on the run from a hostile power bent on their destruction.
Friendship is a spectrum. Zack and Cloud can be friendly without being Best Friends Forever. Ask yourself if you think Zack would have behaved any differently had it been someone else who'd been marinading in the text tube next to him for the last four years. They have bonded in adversity. They've been through some terrible shit together that no one else can understand. But they were not Best Friends Forever when they went to Nibelheim.
That doesn't even begin to examine the question of whether it's possible to make friends with someone in a coma.
How so? He's talking to Cloud, he's not talking to the old guy. Zack may be seriously planning his future in this dialogue, or he may just be shooting the breeze the way a guy like Zack does. In any case, it's clear that it's to Cloud that he addresses the question, "Hey, wanna start a business? But what could we do?" Of course he gets no response from Cloud. When the Old Guy replies, it's pretty obvious he doesn't think he's being invited to join Zack in his new career as a mercenary. Zack then says:
Zack: So, Cloud? What are YOU gonna do?
Driver: No, wait... you got it all wrong.
Cloud: u... uhhh......
Zack: Just kidding... I won't leave you hanging like that. [He sits down next to Cloud.] ...We're friends, right? Mercenaries, Cloud. That's what you an' me are gonna be. Understand, Cloud?
But according to you, either we acknowledge that Zack and Cloud are BEST FRIENDS or we have to agree that he's inviting the Old Guy to join him in their mercenary business. Because only BEST FRIENDS would suggest forming a business together - not, say, two fugitives who were friendly once upon a mission and now find themselves thrown together by circumstances and struggling to survive while on the run from a hostile power bent on their destruction.
Friendship is a spectrum. Zack and Cloud can be friendly without being Best Friends Forever. Ask yourself if you think Zack would have behaved any differently had it been someone else who'd been marinading in the text tube next to him for the last four years. They have bonded in adversity. They've been through some terrible shit together that no one else can understand. But they were not Best Friends Forever when they went to Nibelheim.
That doesn't even begin to examine the question of whether it's possible to make friends with someone in a coma.
- AKA
- Fancy
Yeah, that would be what I'm saying if I were totally disregarding everything else about Zack and Cloud's circumstance, but I'm not. The Old Man wasn't even directly addressed in that conversation iirc.
EDIT: I see that the fact that he wasn't addressing the old man has been confirmed lmao.
No one is denying that Zack and Cloud have some bond or are closer than strangers. It's just a big leap, in my opinion, to go from friendly coworkers to best friends. Maybe it's because I don't use that term so loosely myself—of all the folks I know, I only feel comfortable naming maybe two (if even that) my very best friends. I'm simply not convinced that Zack and Cloud share that depth. I'm not convinced they've had a chance to. I can buy Cloud feeling closer to Zack than Zack does to Cloud because Zack is popular and calls everyone his buddy and, by comparison, loner boy Cloud has fewer relationships and thus would plausibly treat the more positive ones like the one he shares with Zack as special/meaning more to him. But that's like, unbalanced n shit.
I mean, yeah, it's not abnormal that they would given the circumstances. Do they have to meet the condition of being close friends before agreeing to help each other out?
If you and some stranger were confined against your will in some grubby old basement, tortured on a regular basis and fully aware that the stranger you've been confined with is facing the same fate, would you not feel some sort of empathy? Would you not try, if absolutely possible, to help them out if you saw that opportunity?
Given Zack's disposition, he would absolutely save the stranger, so it's no surprise that he would be eager to help out someone he already knows and likes. Cloud has also proven himself capable of being selfless, and empathy and selflessness is exactly what you'd need to be willing to help someone out in that scenario. "Friendship" has nothing to do with it.
Last edited:
- AKA
- Minato
I don't think they are best friends, but i think given that we are told they are friends, i feel the default assumption ought to be they are what we would consider friends. Rather then feel the need to believe that anything and everything that comes into contact with Zack more then once is branded friends and only insofar is a Cloud a friend. They're nothing that says they aren't actual friends without any asterics attached thatmassively detract from the meaning of that, so why not leave it at that?
- AKA
- TresDias
Don't know if it matters to anyone, but the Ultimanias do refer to Cloud and Zack as best friends ...
Maybe by the time Zack dies they are each other's best friend, but they are not best friends going in to Nibelheim. In Crisis Core they seem to be rather in the process of making friends than enjoying an established, very close friendship. If SE did actually intend to portay their relationship as that of best friends, then they did a really poor job of it. 5/10 unconvincing.
Roger, fancy and I never said they weren't friends. They were friends, or they were friendly. But it's canon that Zack regards pretty much everybody he works with as a friend. He has an extremely wide circle of friends. Not all of them would consider themselves to be his friend.
Roger, fancy and I never said they weren't friends. They were friends, or they were friendly. But it's canon that Zack regards pretty much everybody he works with as a friend. He has an extremely wide circle of friends. Not all of them would consider themselves to be his friend.
- AKA
- Fancy
Again, no one is saying they aren't friends.
Don't know if it matters to anyone, but the Ultimanias do refer to Cloud and Zack as best friends ...
god.
fucking.
dammit.
- AKA
- Minato
If you have to feel the need to qualify the statement with "Zack calls everybody his buddy." then I feel like you are.
Which by the way, is just not true. Zack doesn't like Genesis, not just as an enemy but on a personal level, he took an instant dislike to Hojo (even when Hojo had done nothing more then express displeasure at being threatened at swordpoint), he has nothing but negative interactions with Reno and Hollander. His relationship with Tseng wasn't without issues. He couldn't pick the other guards that went to Nibelheim and Modeoheim out a line-up. Nor any of the guys at Junon. He had time on the trail to Modeoheim and decided to take an interest in Cloud. After the mission, of the soldiers lined up in front of him, he was able to address Cloud personally about his desire of getting into SOLDIERs and not the others cause he didn't know the others as well as he did Cloud. They kept meeting each other and by the time of Nibelheim, they were close enough that Cloud invited Zack to come to dinner at his house. To me that's a normal friendship. No need to ascribe some inhuman level of comradery with all living beings to Zack that redefines how he approaches friendships to explain why Cloud managed to have one.
- AKA
- Fancy
This is a figure of speech. I am not literally saying that Zack literally calls literally everyone he knows his literal friend. So what I've originally stated still stands.
Well, yes, Roger, like I said there are degrees of friendship. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Zack gets invited to people's houses for dinner all the time. I agree that Cloud inviting him home shows that Cloud sees him as someone special. Maybe Cloud just wants to prove to his mum that he's not a Nobby No-Mates? I really feel you're stretching a point saying "He couldn't pick the other guards that went to Nibelheim and Modeoheim out a line-up. Nor any of the guys at Junon." You don't know this. In the gam they're just the same cookie cutter character model because CC focuses only on his friendship with Cloud; that's what the fans want to see. But you can't infer from this that Zack can't tell anbody else in SOLDIER or PSM apart!
If he and Genesis and he and Tseng aren't friends, then why are they on the DMW?
If he and Genesis and he and Tseng aren't friends, then why are they on the DMW?
- AKA
- Minato
I'm not saying he can't tell anyone apart. But I don't think he knew who Cloud was and would not have been able to pick him out of lineup before he happened to have time alone with him and asked. I don't see any reason to believe similiar interactions happened with every person on every mission in every area Zack entered. Most of time Zack's pretty busy. And alone. or working with people he already knows.
Genesis is in the DMW line-up with the summons, you think he's friend with Ifrit and Odin too? Of what am I saying, of course you do.
Zack can't stand LOVELESS to the point that he screams at Genesis to shut up and dismisses it, what kind of friendship could they possibly have had?
I didn't say Tseng wasn't his friend, I said their relationship had difficulties. Tseng said it's a pleasure to work with Zack, quickly understood why Sephiroth wanted Zack on this mission looked forward to seeing him succeed in bringing Angeal back to the fold. Took a while before Zack had anything good to say about Tseng. He had other things on his mind.
Then why is Genesis on the DMW? He's in the "friends" section, not the "summons" section or the "wacky characters" section.
- Status