SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yumelinh]

Yeah! It was like this in the OG, but I agree that it's very good that they're being more explicit about it. Before I started lurking around FF forums, I always assumed it was the other way around (i.e., that our choices impact what Cloud felt about his companions) because that's normally how it goes in other games.

 

[Rose Alive]

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah! It was like this in the OG, but I agree that it's very good that they're being more explicit about it. Before I started lurking around FF forums, I always assumed it was the other way around (i.e., that our choices impact what Cloud felt about his companions) because that's normally how it goes in other games.

Is it, really? Most dating games start from an assumption that it's the MC that needs to pursue the eligible ladies (and dudes where applicable) by earning their approval with MC's interest taken as a given and that's the mold the devs were leaning on to leverage your assumptions from.
As Rose Alive helpfully demonstrated, even in non-dating games with romance elements, it's the companion's opinions you're swaying, not the main character.
I stand by my analogy that the affection mechanic is in essence a great big shell game, there to keep you slightly off balance and to set you up for the rug pull moments later in the game.

 

[Stiggie]

Is it, really? Most dating games start from an assumption that it's the MC that needs to pursue the eligible ladies (and dudes where applicable) by earning their approval with MC's interest taken as a given and that's the mold the devs were leaning on to leverage your assumptions from.
As Rose Alive helpfully demonstrated, even in non-dating games with romance elements, it's the companion's opinions you're swaying, not the main character.
I stand by my analogy that the affection mechanic is in essence a great big shell game, there to keep you slightly off balance and to set you up for the rug pull moments later in the game.

I don't think you're correct there. I don't think that in dating games that the MC's interest is a given. Sometimes it's a given FOR the girl you are pursuing, yes, but not for the other candidates and since all candidates start at the same location naturally the MC is assumed to not be in love with any of them at the start. There there is often a clear arc where they slowly fall in love with the person, the only true given is that THE PLAYER wants the main character to be interested in the girl they are pursuing.

But usually the point is that the actions you as a player choose show romantic interest in a particular girl, making it seem like "a given", but like Yumelinh said it's really our choices that push our character in a certain direction.

FFVII is a little more complicated. In case of FFVII, Cloud is in love with Tifa, that is a given, because regardless of the future, the past doesn't change, and the past is that Cloud is in love with Tifa. Aerith meanwhile is in love with Zack for the same reason. This means that there are already a bunch of dynamics rather than starting from zero. Cloud already loves Tifa, so courting her shouldn't change that, but it might make him more comfortable around her which changes their relationship. Tifa already has a crush on Cloud but probably has further to grow and since she's not braindamaged any assertive actions would have to come from her. Meaning that her state of mind is most important for her relationship with Cloud, Tifa essentially could have Cloud any time she wants as long as she goes for it.

For Aerith it's different, she'd need to both fall in love with Cloud over Zack, but also switch Cloud from loving Tifa to loving her before she would even be able to make a move. So from a gameplay perspective that's more akin to the traditional romance game where both characters need to reach a certain point I'd say, but since Cloud already loves Tifa I can't say that him acting favorably towards Aerith would reflect his "given affection" for Aerith. I think it would just be Cloud doing stuff, Aerith growing fond of him, and those interactions then retroactively making him grow more fond of her. It's also complicated ofcourse by us not knowing to what degree Cloud is aware of his feelings for Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think you misunderstand me, Stiggie. I never said FF7 is doing the same thing as a dating sim or that Cloud is acting like a dating sim protag. I said FF7 is leveraging the expectations of dating sims where the MC's interest is taken as given (in that if you can engage in the otome mechanics with a potential partner the MC will not suddenly decide he's not into the girl at the end of the route) to mess with the player because FF7 is playing with the player at the start. You're right, it's decided things from the beginning, but it, at least the OG, doesn't want you realizing that. So it plays a little song and dance to keep you a little off balance so that you don't understand the full importance of them until later.

So you're right, FF7 is different. That's my assertion as well. You have no say in Cloud's emotions. You have a limited sway in how the party feels about Cloud before his mind snaps and his shell persona breaks, and that's a different Persona that Cloud scrabbled together to deal with his trauma and keep himself moving. And even then all of that is actually there to distract you before the game hits you with the big punches.

 

[null]

I like the new dialogue wheel. You say the obvious things, you do the obvious quests, you get the obvious sex in the engine room before the final battle. Or just go on a classy date at the Silversun Strip I mean Gold Saucer. Whatever. The point is, there are no decent intergalactic dating services. To have a shot at romance, you need to talk to people.

 

[Rose Alive]

I like the new dialogue wheel. You say the obvious things, you do the obvious quests, you get the obvious sex in the engine room before the final battle. Or just go on a classy date at the Silversun Strip I mean Gold Saucer. Whatever. The point is, there are no decent intergalactic dating services. To have a shot at romance, you need to talk to people.

I'm really looking forward to all the dialogue options. I want the Tifa date, but I'm going to max out the relationships with everyone. Hopefully there will be a way to view all the dates post-game if your relationships with the characters are high enough.

 

[frosty]

I'm really looking forward to all the dialogue options. I want the Tifa date, but I'm going to max out the relationships with everyone. Hopefully there will be a way to view all the dates post-game if your relationships with the characters are high enough.

I'm afraid I won't be able to resist choosing all the bad options, because I think those would elicit the funniest responses.

But when I think the current date mechanics do a pretty good job of giving everyone the fan service they want, while the plot is still tight.

- Your options don't seem to involve you picking one woman over another. I was deeply afraid they'd go with the route where you have to say something mean to Aerith or Tifa, or compare them favourably or unfavourably - painting Cloud as being pretty assholey, and just putting women in gaming back to 1990 - but it seems that you just get to give a good, neutral, bad response for each question they ask you.

- Everyone gets their fan service, regardless of Cloud's reciprocity

- The LTD can still exist, but paints the participants in a better light - Aerith's OG persona seemed to actively pursue Cloud despite Tifa's obvious chagrin / discomfiture, but it seems the angle they can play off while being true to the OG's beats is Aerith possibly being interpreted as "Teehee, I'm doing this to secretly wing woman you guys!"

All in all, I feel they found a way to try to keep everyone happy-ish while still steering towards the Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith end state

 

[Rose Alive]

I'm afraid I won't be able to resist choosing all the bad options, because I think those would elicit the funniest responses.

But when I think the current date mechanics do a pretty good job of giving everyone the fan service they want, while the plot is still tight.

- Your options don't seem to involve you picking one woman over another. I was deeply afraid they'd go with the route where you have to say something mean to Aerith or Tifa, or compare them favourably or unfavourably - painting Cloud as being pretty assholey, and just putting women in gaming back to 1990 - but it seems that you just get to give a good, neutral, bad response for each question they ask you.

- Everyone gets their fan service, regardless of Cloud's reciprocity

- The LTD can still exist, but paints the participants in a better light - Aerith's OG persona seemed to actively pursue Cloud despite Tifa's obvious chagrin / discomfiture, but it seems the angle they can play it off with while being true to the OG's beats is Aerith possibly being interpreted as "Teehee, I'm doing this to secretly wing woman you guys!"

All in all, I feel they found a way to try to keep everyone happy-ish while still steering towards the Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith end state

Yeah you can tell they went about this in a very thoughtful but careful way. No one wants a Cloud who is leading the girls on. There's way too much going on for that anyway; it would take away from the story if it turned into a YA book.
I got that vibe from Aerith in remake. While I'm personally not a fan of the flirting to push Cloud and Tifa together, Aerith clearly means no harm, especially if she knows bits of the future like Remake hinted at.
It does already seem solidified that it's still going to be Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith. Zack and Aerith from the trailers are like the elephant in the room a lot of people won't even address. But I'm super stoked to see more of those two, whether it's in death or the different timeline/dream world.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I really don't think this is the case at all but I'm not sure of spoiler policy (if it's the same as in the past) (does the LTD section still exist in a void outside the boundaries of the main forum? ) so haven't said much. All I will say is I am very happy about what has been said about Hollow and No Promises to Keep and the matching theme songs being about love and time.

 

[Rose Alive]

I really don't think this is the case at all but I'm not sure of spoiler policy (if it's the same as the past) so haven't said much. All I will say is I am very happy about what has been said about Hollow and No Promises to Keep and the matching theme songs being about love and time.

I thought Hollow was confirmed to be about Cloud standing in the rain, and was never stated to be Cloud thinking only about Aerith, especially in a romantic context. I feel like the hopelessness and complexity in that song is diminished when it's used as shipping fodder. Many of the lyrics could be pointed to Aerith, Zack, Tifa, or even the real Cloud who is buried within.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm afraid I won't be able to resist choosing all the bad options, because I think those would elicit the funniest responses.

But when I think the current date mechanics do a pretty good job of giving everyone the fan service they want, while the plot is still tight.

- Your options don't seem to involve you picking one woman over another. I was deeply afraid they'd go with the route where you have to say something mean to Aerith or Tifa, or compare them favourably or unfavourably - painting Cloud as being pretty assholey, and just putting women in gaming back to 1990 - but it seems that you just get to give a good, neutral, bad response for each question they ask you.

- Everyone gets their fan service, regardless of Cloud's reciprocity

- The LTD can still exist, but paints the participants in a better light - Aerith's OG persona seemed to actively pursue Cloud despite Tifa's obvious chagrin / discomfiture, but it seems the angle they can play it off with while being true to the OG's beats is Aerith possibly being interpreted as "Teehee, I'm doing this to secretly wing woman you guys!"

All in all, I feel they found a way to try to keep everyone happy-ish while still steering towards the Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith end state

I don't like the vagueness tbh, imo, there is a fundamental problem in any story that tries to have its cake and eat it too, namely that the lack of clarity makes it harder to fully explore any individual concept, meaning that you just get a bunch of things explored poorly. For instance. You can't make the entire game twice, so outside of specific scenes the other scenes need to fit all scenarios, which means that the characters can't drift too far in any direction. I don't mind a bit of fan-service in all directions, even Jessie got her moment, but for gods sake, just pick a story, stick with it, and tell said story the best way you can so it hits as accurately and profoundly as possible.

 

[Rose Alive]

I don't like the vagueness tbh, imo, there is a fundamental problem in any story that tries to have its cake and eat it too, namely that the lack of clarity makes it harder to fully explore any individual concept, meaning that you just get a bunch of things explored poorly. For instance. You can't make the entire game twice, so outside of specific scenes the other scenes need to fit all scenarios, which means that the characters can't drift too far in any direction. I don't mind a bit of fan-service in all directions, even Jessie got her moment, but for gods sake, just pick a story, stick with it, and tell said story the best way you can so it hits as accurately and profoundly as possible.

Hopefully during part 3, all the ship teasing will be done and over with. First we all have to survive the Gold Saucer and the madness that's going to bring out.

 

[null]

Vagueness can work really well when done right imho. "Good" vague can turn into pretentious shitshow vague really easily though. The kind of vague where you write something that clearly points to a specific resolution, and only makes sense for that resolution, and then pretend it's up to the viewer to decide what it means while constantly slipping up in interviews. LOOKING AT YOU, SOPRANOS ENDING.

 

[Rose Alive]

Square trying to keep things vague while also not keeping things vague and fueling debates that will go on long until the end of time:

 

[null]

I love the conspiracy angle but wonder why they haven't tried it in the other FF games. Like if they're printing money off the LTD then other FF titles should have vague pseudo-routes to argue about too right? Or did we collectively just not take the bait in the other games. Anyone want to fight me over Lenna vs Faris? Is there not a single fan who will stand up and defend Maria's canon honor?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think its a good thing S-E has enough creative design integrity not to just copy-paste tropes from one game to other especially of that sort lol...

 

[Stiggie]

I love the conspiracy angle but wonder why they haven't tried it in the other FF games. Like if they're printing money off the LTD then other FF titles should have vague pseudo-routes to argue about too right? Or did we collectively just not take the bait in the other games. Anyone want to fight me over Lenna vs Faris? Is there not a single fan who will stand up and defend Maria's canon honor?

I still prefer Quistis over Rinoa. The whole "I mistook sisterly love for romantic love" they pulled there felt about one tenth as deserved as it does for Cloud and Aerith. When Quistis said that shit it reeked of trying to save face.

 

[null]

I think its a good thing S-E has enough creative design integrity not to just copy-paste tropes from one game to other especially of that sort lol...

Thats my point. I don’t think they’re milking the FFVII approach to the LT for the sole purpose of engagement. It’s a creative choice they made early on and they’re standing by it. Which is a terrible idea imo. It might work for a self-contained game they had no plans to revisit, but should have been abandoned once they started planning to expand.

I still prefer Quistis over Rinoa. The whole "I mistook sisterly love for romantic love" they pulled there felt about one tenth as deserved as it does for Cloud and Aerith. When Quistis said that shit it reeked of trying to save face.

Yeah I hate it when cheap anime tropes creep into non-anime. “Oh, I simply misunderstood (insert completely different feeling) with love.” You twit.

I don’t care for Rinoa so I will join forces with you.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I still prefer Quistis over Rinoa.

Hell yeah, dude. My uncle had FFVIII on PC and so whenever I would visit, I ended up replaying the intro with Quistis at least 5 times. Squall is a tasteless fool.

I think when I finally booted up FFVII for the first time, I knew the game was gonna lay it on thick with Aerith - she was in the first FMV and on the back of the box - so me being the rebel I am was like: “You’re not the boss of me game. I stanned Quistis, and now I’m gonna stan Tifa.”

I also knew Aerith died, so that might have played a factor in my reasoning, too.

 

[null]

I really don't think this is the case at all but I'm not sure of spoiler policy (if it's the same as in the past) (does the LTD section still exist in a void outside the boundaries of the main forum? ) so haven't said much.

Good question. What do we all want to do? Keep going in this thread? Start a new Rebirth thread? This subforum is rigged with explosives in case the LTD needs to be put down so my guess is that it stays in the dungeon.

@ForceStealer @Lex y'all got a preference?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Listen, I'm not locked in here with you, you're all locked in here with me. And I say we can debate rebirth in here regardless. FFVIII Love Triangle Bullshit will have to go into a different thread, however. Besides, you're all wrong, Squall is a fucking dumbass who deserves no women and Selphie is best girl.

 

[Rose Alive]

Saw it this morning and was really pleased for a while, but tbh I'm kinda wary of the idea of a confirmation of any sort in the second game. The third? I would expect, but the second? Errr, not sure! Wondering if this can just be someone imagining something or just a screenshot taken in a perfect angle? Just looking for excuses for that mess of spoilers not to be true lol

I thought I'd move this discussion here bc I know a lot of people get annoyed with the LTD.
I'm all for the earliest confirmation possible between Cloud and Tifa. That way if Aerith does die, people can't whine that Cloud would have chosen Aerith over Tifa had she lived.
I know Cloud and Aerith will have their shiptease moments, but make it obvious that Tifa is his endgame.

 

[Yumelinh]

I thought I'd move this discussion here bc I know a lot of people get annoyed with the LTD.
I'm all for the earliest confirmation possible between Cloud and Tifa. That way if Aerith does die, people can't whine that Cloud would have chosen Aerith over Tifa had she lived.
I know Cloud and Aerith will have their shiptease moments, but make it obvious that Tifa is his endgame.

Not sure if we can discuss leaks freely in this thread, so I'll hide it under spoilers for now so everyone can read at their own risk.

Spoiler: Possible spoilers/leaks regarding rebirth

I do get your point, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea, tbh. At this point in the game, Cloud is still quite a mess, which is what leads to the whole Lifestream sequence in the first place. I'm not sure if I would like their first kiss in the game to happen while Cloud is still not fully himself again. Plus, a confirmation that early in the game only opens room for more unnecessary things to be thrown between them to generate some conflict until the actual ending. If the idea is to end the LTD for good this time, they can do that by just being more clear and straightforward with the intentions (which I believe is what they were doing in Remake, for example) rather than confirming a pairing in the second instalment.

 

[null]

Ryu, as always I respect your vulgar display of dominance in LTD matters but this

Selphie is best girl

is not how you spell RAINE

I thought I'd move this discussion here bc I know a lot of people get annoyed with the LTD.
I'm all for the earliest confirmation possible between Cloud and Tifa. That way if Aerith does die, people can't whine that Cloud would have chosen Aerith over Tifa had she lived.
I know Cloud and Aerith will have their shiptease moments, but make it obvious that Tifa is his endgame.

In my humble opinion, the earliest confirmation was Cloud handing Tifa the flower with the player choice removed. But they spent the whole game doing non-optional touching / reaching / holding / invading each other's personal space / yelling each other's names / saving each other just in time. I feel like stuff like that is more intimate than physical expression. But yeah "they haven't kissed" is the last thing to go, that's the final hiding place, it's the final fig leaf.