SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[null]

I think we're getting Aerith and Zack by the barrelful in part 3. The sense of loss will be reduced to the characters experiencing it rather than the players.

 

[birbcode]

Because the Affection points don't represent anything to do with Cloud. They represent how the four feel about him, not how he feels about them.

That's precisely my point, because if Cloud loved Aerith, by the time we get to the highwind scene it's quite clear he's moved on to Tifa (or should I say moved back to Tifa lol). It's part of the reason why I'm not particularly fond of the idea that "Cloud loved both girls."

 

[Edley]

Yeah, because in Rebirth, they already mention about Cloud and Tifa that

Spoiler

they were not actually childhood friends/truly close as kids, so they seem to have moved some of the truths later in OG to Rebirth already

I prefer this to be honest because

Spoiler

the whole point is they were not good friends/childhood sweethearts but only got to know each other, truly know each other through the journey of FFVII and beyond, it was more than childhood fantasies and idealised versions of people they didn't really know

Nojima's Novella provides context:

Spoiler

The novella informs us of Tyler, Lester, an Emilio who along with Tifa get dubbed 'The Four Fiends' because they were inseparable as kids. Cloud is dubbed 'the weirdo' and 'a menace to society' for getting in fights and general anti-social behavior. We can put two and two together and infer that young Cloud distanced himself when young Tifa started spending time with the other boys. Later on, Tifa and Cloud fall off Mt. Nibel and the other boys blame Cloud by falsely accusing him of goading Tifa into danger. Cloud doesn't deny the accusations as he felt responsible for Tifa almost dying.

 

[billy22]

Tbh I'd rather not have another LTD thread to police, so I'm going to to say discuss as normal but tag any Rebirth leaks/ spoilers until the game has been out for like a month.

This topic is going to blow up just days after it releases. It would be pretty annoying having to click through 50+ pages of

Spoiler: covered text

spoiler covered text.

So perhaps it would be better to just put a warning on release day that this topic contains Rebirth spoilers, and that people should stay away until they finish that game?

 

[Yumelinh]

The fun has begun!

Anyways, I'm pretty sure I've said this before somewhere around here, but personally, I believe the LTD is still alive not because SE has never confirmed a pairing (because they did), but because we don't know for a fact what Cloud's feelings for Aerith in OG are, and since it has never been officially stated, it leaves room for people to interpret it either as affection/attraction or just simply... love.

Cloud's feelings for Tifa are a completely different matter. We know for a fact what the nature of it is and that it runs as deep as Tifa's feelings for him. There's not much room for interpretations here.

So, now that I think of it, the ambiguity of the LTD doesn't lie too much in who Cloud loves or ends up with (we know the answer for that), but in the nature of Cloud's feelings for Aerith at the time they spent together. Because in OG, if you favored Tifa in your playthrough during the first disc, you might end up thinking that Cloud’s feelings for Aerith were just a small crush, but if you favored Aerith instead, then you may end up thinking it was something stronger than that.

Remake seems to be less likely to play it in the same way as before. They seem to be setting boundaries at what is left up to interpretation and what is not, so maybe we will get a definitive answer to that this time around (or maybe they will feed this confusion even more this time, who knows...).

 

[Rose Alive]

So, now that I think of it, the ambiguity of the LTD doesn't lie too much in who Cloud loves or ends up with (we know the answer for that), but in the nature of Cloud's feelings for Aerith at the time they spent together.

I hope Rebirth clears up how Cloud feels toward Aerith instead of muddying the waters even more. Perhaps we won't get this insight until the Lifestream scene though.

If Rebirth leans too hard toward Cloud/Aerith, it'll confuse the Zack/Aerith narrative they appear to be pushing. Let's assume Aerith dies like the OG. Damaged psyche or not, if you have a lot of Cloud/Aerith in Rebirth, all it will do is fuel the belief that Cloud settles for Tifa and that she "wins" by default.

Remake did a good job of showing that he loves Tifa. Giving her the flower, the stars reflecting in his eyes at Aerith's house, and even Aerith's resolution scene where she tells him that his feelings for her, if he has them, are not real.

And maybe Aerith's resolution scene is the only confirmation we're going to get. But of course people are twisting that scene to fit the narrative they want.

 

[Maidenofwar]

To me, it's not about twisting, I just genuinely did not see the Remake or Aerith's resolution that way is all, and Ì really enjoyed c/a in Remake

 

[Yumelinh]

I hope Rebirth clears up how Cloud feels toward Aerith instead of muddying the waters even more. Perhaps we won't get this insight until the Lifestream scene though.

If Rebirth leans too hard toward Cloud/Aerith, it'll confuse the Zack/Aerith narrative they appear to be pushing. Let's assume Aerith dies like the OG. Damaged psyche or not, if you have a lot of Cloud/Aerith in Rebirth, all it will do is fuel the belief that Cloud settles for Tifa and that she "wins" by default.

Remake did a good job of showing that he loves Tifa. Giving her the flower, the stars reflecting in his eyes at Aerith's house, and even Aerith's resolution scene where she tells him that his feelings for her, if he has them, are not real.

And maybe Aerith's resolution scene is the only confirmation we're going to get. But of course people are twisting that scene to fit the narrative they want.

Yeah, that's why I've been looking at the spoilers a little doubtfully because I truly don't believe SE will end the LTD as of now, but will probably still lean into the intended direction in some way or another.

As for Remake, while I don't think Cloud was showcasing his love for Tifa per se (I don't think he's even aware of his feelings for her in this moment due to his mind being all over the place), I believe what they did in Remake with Cloud and Tifa is that, even though Part 1 Cloud is still not fully himself, his care for Tifa shines through. Even though this Cloud isn't aware that he was in love with her, he just KNOWS she's important, and their relationship develops from that. I guess that's why it works so well even though Cloud is kinda broken at the moment, because they have a past before Cloud becomes the mess he is and their relationship is probably one of the very few moments where Cloud is confronted with his true memories.

That said, I don't mean it in the way that everything that Cloud felt before the lifestream wasn't true or we would need to discard all the relationships he developed throughout that part of his life, but rather that it's all very, very confusing and lacking full context.

Regarding Aerith's resolution, we discussed it extensively in the past, and many believe she was meaning that in a way that he shouldn't fall in love with her because she was going to die. Personally, I believe the word used i.e 'real' is very telling that it wasn't referring to her death in itself but rather Cloud's state of mind, and maybe Rebirth will give us more insight into it and which one of the interpretations is more correct ( if any).

 

[KindOfBlue]

My impression of what’s happening between Cloud and Aerith in the remake goes right back to what was said about the OG:

Nojima: As a motif for them, Tifa is “the childhood friend who’s been with you since nursery school”, and Aerith is “the girl who transfers school mid-term and quickly leaves for another school.” Since she doesn’t have many scenes, you’ve got to make it so that the transfer student has a big impact. That was what I thought.

That’s why everything about Cloud and Aerith is presented in such an idealized way, like something out of a Disney movie. The devs want the audience to fall in love with the idea of Cloud and Aerith as a couple so that the impact of her death hurts even more when they DON’T end up together. The problem is that shippers get so caught up in all the glitz and glamour of the shipteasing that the punchline goes over their heads and they don’t realize the story significance of their emotions being played with like a fiddle.

So when Aerith directly tells Cloud (the audience) that falling in love with her is pointless/not real, it’s almost to say “fall in love with me if you’d like, but it won’t end well for you.” If the leak about the Gold Saucer date is true (“I told you not to fall in love with me” or something) then that only cements this further.

Both sets of shippers share the same problem of thinking Cloud’s development with one girl pits that relationship against his relationship with the other. Whether he “loves” them both or one over the other is just another goalpost for shippers to argue over. At this point, I regard any interpretation of the story that ignores or directly contradicts the words of the devs as strictly headcanon, “death of the author” be damned.

 

[null]

Death of the Author is a load of crap anyway imo. Any story can be twisted to mean anything with that excuse.

It's more like the author had a child. In many ways the author knows their own child better than anyone, but the author can't interact with it the same way the audience does. The audience knows a side of that child the author will never see.

 

[roku]

Death of the Author means only the text itself matters. It means you can ignore anything outside the text(interviews for example) but not the text itself.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Death of the Author means only the text itself matters. It means you can ignore anything outside the text(interviews for example) but not the text itself.

The philosophy of death of the author extends to any supplementary information from the author, be it their background or any commentary they’ve made on their own work. Proponents of death of the author argue that only the audience’s interpretation of the material matters.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The philosophy of death of the author extends to any supplementary information from the author, be it their background or any commentary they’ve made on their own work. Proponents of death of the author argue that only the audience’s interpretation of the material matters.

And that is a stupid way to approach a work. Every creator has a vision and a purpose for their work. Ignoring that idea is stupid. You can evaluate how well they execute that (You can absolutely create a work that exemplifies literally the opposite of your intention) but ignoring it is folly.

 

[KindOfBlue]

And that is a stupid way to approach a work. Every creator has a vision and a purpose for their work. Ignoring that idea is stupid. You can evaluate how well they execute that (You can absolutely create a work that exemplifies literally the opposite of your intention) but ignoring it is folly.

Agreed. Of course, there’s no way to police how other people interpret art, nor would I want there to be. I think what mainly rubs me the wrong way is when people try to take their own interpretations and pass them off as the creators’ intent so as to make their own view the “correct” one.

In the most extreme cases, you get a disgruntled fan who’s so frustrated that the creators won’t validate his interpretation that he pretends to hire yakuza to kill them…

 

[Makoeyes987]

....

We might need to pack this thread up.

ROTFL, this might be a wrap. I don't even know what to say...

 

[Rose Alive]

....

We might need to pack this thread up.

ROTFL, this might be a wrap. I don't even know what to say...

I say it's about time!

Frankly I'm relieved it was so blatant. You gotta hit these people over the head; you can't be subtle. All I ever wanted to know was did Cloud have feelings for Aerith? And I  finally have my answer.

 

[Yumelinh]

I'm a cautious woman, so I'll wait for the last game to call it a wrap, but I must admit... I wasn't expecting SE to be this direct not even in the 3rd game, let alone in the 2nd one

 

[null]

Welp. The game's in the refrigerator, the door's closed, the light's out, the eggs are cooling, the butter's getting hard and the jello's jiggling.

… is what I’d like to say but we got another full game y’all, and we ain’t even started this one!

You’re the champs, you’ve all been here before. Until that buzzer goes off, and they rope off that court, and wheel out that trophy, and sell those championship T shirts… we bros will be right here squatting with honor.

 

[Rose Alive]

we bros will be right here squatting with honor.

Oh no. Spent way too much time in that thread of chaos and now you're a Zackbro.

 

[Lex]

Oh no. Spent way too much time in that thread of chaos and now you're a Zackbro.

See link to rules regarding behaviour in this thread.

How this shitshow works; to be read before posting here (ATTN: updated 8/23/21)

[Addendum made August 23, 2021: If you intend to equate people shipping something you disagree about to the KKK, Nazis, or a similarly hyperbolic real-world point of reference -- or otherwise invoke imagery associated with these and similar real-world references -- please don't. We will ban...

thelifestream.net

To clarify, I am not warning you specifically, it's just that people have been playing fast and loose with the rules in here and this topic is (for very good reason) more strictly moderated than the rest of the site

 

[billy22]

… is what I’d like to say but we got another full game y’all, and we ain’t even started this one!

Let us cope. We all want this shitshow to end. For the sake of our sanity.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I caught up with this thread before I caught up with the spoiler thread so I didn’t know what @Makoeyes987 was referring to, but my immediate reaction was “well, if Mako’s this sure about something, there’s probably some truth to it.”

Then I caught up to the spoiler thread and…ouch. Just…ouch. A good ol’ masamune to the back woulda been less painful, hot damn.

 

[Biscuit]

They really went and killed it in every possible way. When I meant they're making a tribute to cloti, I wasn't expecting this at all. I'm very happy for the cloti fans! Unfortunately SENA has made a few adjustments, but I hope that doesn't deter the enjoyment.

 

[frosty]

I never really used to care much for Aerith, but damn, I want part 3 to give her the happiest reunion with Zack because oouuff I never expected them to end the LTD this way

 

[Maidenofwar]

Nakama stuff doesn't scare me,

Spoiler: hey listen! navi sounds

Cloud also calls Tifa nakama before too, I'm not going to allow some bad faith interpretations (talking about the worst of takes in the other thread nobody here) ruin my enjoyment of the game.

Cloud literally calls the church our place, basically says he wants to do it again, and Aerith gets the Reunion flower brooch like Leslie gives his fiancee, nothing is over, it's not a friendzone.

A few days ago, when nobody was leaking Clerith content, and then I read about my favourite character dying again I decided not to go out of my way to get a new console and the game, then screenshots, etc started happening, etc of stuff Cleriths had theorised, made predictions and wishes for. I'm not going to let different interpretations of scenes ruin that for me. I'm back, still aten't ded, and not getting off that train.

Anyway apparently it's not as in buddy Cloud uses but a comrade word which doesn't quite translate directly to English so localisation did the best with it they could and localised it to fit the context of the scene. I saw it best said somewhere else but it's not some kind of conspiracy theory from square Enix North America or anywhere else to mess with shippers or anything