SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

I see you were misunderstanding me, I was saying that I was worried it was going to end like that, not that I actually wanted it to end like that. Sorry about that.

"Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other."

Based on what you said here, it doesn't seem like you were saying you were worried that's how it'd end though. These two paragraphs come across as you wanting things to end this way. In one paragraph, you want Aerith to be in the Lifestream sequence. Then in the next, you said it'd cheapen things if she was there.

 

[GamerSkull]

The way I see it, is if I went on a date with a girl I liked and then interlocked fingers with her for a prolonged period of time, I would 100% go home thinking I made BIG progress with her, since I've never been romantically involved with anyone, same as Cloud.

Give it a rest, I don't really know how I can prove to you I'm not a Clerith. Just trust me, I gush about Cloud, Tifa and their relationship, I love them.

I was referring to the dream date btw, not the gold saucer one, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Sure, but I think context matters. This is after Cloud has remembered Zack. She knows Aerith misses him, it was also brought up immediately before she interlocks fingers with him. It almost seems like he’s doing it to give her comfort and make her night more pleasant. Especially considering she asks him to sit next to her earlier and he still sits on the opposite side.

Let’s be honest, if interlocking fingers is big progress… then imagine what making out with fireworks must make someone feel as they go home.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

So, does anyone here still think that the remake trilogy will end with Advent children? because I feel like it would be awkward for it to, especially since some stuff like Kyrie were placed into the remakes, it would just make some stuff feel disjointed.

Yes. It might end with AC recreated in the game somehow, but I see no reason for it not to. Kyrie doesn't complicate matters much.

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

You have made a fundamental error in logic here, as others have pointed out. "If this happens, it would be terrible" does not mean "If it is terrible, this will definitely happen."

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Why not? She literally does not appear in any physical way in the OG from her death until the very end outside of a video of her birth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

It would still be Cloud and Tifa's moment. I mean, it would be extra cruel to Aerith for her to see the fact that Cloud has literally never had a thought in his head that wasn't Tifa related in some fashion. But I don't think they're putting her there. Not physically anyways.

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

You can imply lots of things without breaking a T rating my friend.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

I will wager with 100% certainty it will do neither of those things.

So, those are my thoughts. Again, if this is posted in the wrong thread or came off as rude, I'm really sorry.

This is the correct spot, you are not rude, and forgive my own presumptuousness, but do you suffer from an anxiety disorder by chance?

It's true that the original triangle being discussed still exists as it did in '97, but the inclusion of Zack is your wild card here.

Zack is the missing piece of the puzzle that makes the triangle fall apart. I mean, he always has been, but much more blatantly.

I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here. Many ways to ruin a story, and only one of them involves undoing decades of a well-known story element in a flagship game to pursue... what appears to be an element that doesn't even really exist in the current iteration.

Exactly. CA makes no narrative sense for the Retrilogy, but EVEN IF the third game has a shitty ending there's no reason to suspect it will occur. Like, the endings have been strange nonsense but you could theoretically ignore them and just get the OG events more or less. Part 3 is almost certain to do the same.

I understand the pessimism, but keep in mind that, in a game with date mechanics where the player chooses who Cloud dates, Cloud only chose to kiss Tifa. This was deliberate, and probably the most telling of decisions by the devs, not even mentioning that they have, in a recent interview, asked everyone to watch all of them. There are many places where inserting Aerith was possible in Rebirth given that many of the moments in the game were new and added dimension, but again they just didn't.

But to humour your hypothetical, let's say that Aerith is shoehorned into the Lifestream sequence: will this destroy Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Can Aerith bring back Cloud without Tifa's memories of him? Are Cloud's memories and affections for Tifa going to be erased? And, possibly most importantly, how is a Aerith, who presumably loves Cloud (but is, to date, unproven to do so) to react when she sees that the love that inhabits his mind is a love that is reserved for another?

All that besides, the conclusion of "a sealed up secret wish" is a trigger that has yet to be pulled (but all CT scenes thus far have indicated that they're just itching to pull it).

Plus both TOTP and the 2000 gil short story tie in went out of their way to really hammer home just how much Cloud and Tifa did and do matter to each other.

FFX, who had the same devs, had an implied sex scene but it wasn't raunchy, explicit, or, actually, even obvious. You can't tell me that they were "dancing down there where it's wet" and not make me think it was innuendo. It's about execution: Kato wanted to be explicit in FFVII but was denied that level of it, then he proceeded to be explicit with it in Xenogears. Different artistic visions in this case, so maybe it will just take a different form in the coming game.

To note, he was explicit that the two had sex, there was not an "explicit sex scene"

Rebirth alone was pretty far from ambiguous so I don't feel like the waters will become murkier as time goes on. It's been a while since I've seen Advent Children, but I don't remember Kyrie being involved at all - only in TKAA. It felt pretty well contained within its own narrative so I'm not sure how this is affected.

Yeah, Kyrie doesn't actually affect anything with regards to ACC at all. She does not make contact with any of the 7th heaven fam until after its events.

Speaking of ambiguity, we also have to remember that the devs deliberately released ToTP and CCR prior to Rebirth and insisted for people to experience that in order to understand everything going on in Rebirth - both of these entries give background to CT and ZA so it would seem terribly out of pocket to just do away with that in favour of a pairing that neither has the narrative links to each other like CT or ZA does, or provide any satisfying conclusion to the non-optional buildup between Cloud and Tifa which has been noted pretty well across the board.

And 2000 Gil to be a hero, natch.

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.

Mandatory! Because you have to see them.

The way I see it, is if I went on a date with a girl I liked and then interlocked fingers with her for a prolonged period of time, I would 100% go home thinking I made BIG progress with her, since I've never been romantically involved with anyone, same as Cloud.

And if it was a girl you had literally never considered romantically and also thought was still having feelings for her dead ex boyfriend who was your best friend?

 

[Hellenic]

See, I can't really see Cloud initiating hand holding with Aerith as anything but romantic, like, why else would he do that? To showcase a familial bond? especially not the interlocking fingers later on, that definitely has romantic connotations, especially when we know Cloud harbored some degree of liking for Aerith, atleast while he was acting out his SOLDIER persona.

Aerith was the one who needed relief during their date and she initiated there and Cloud indulged her. He does consider Aerith dear to him just like he does everyone else close to him and so he let's her get that moment there. The later scene is essentially one of the many goodbyes he had with Aerith (seriously why did they have to do it so many damn times), where she sends him back to the rest of the party while she's dispersing into Lifestream particles or whatnot. It was a nice throwback to the AC scene and a deserved tender moment.

I can see why people would see it all romantically, but i just have a hard time buying it, considering everything that happened with them throughout the game, how he feels about Tifa, remembering Zack and that Aerith was still very much in love with Zack this time around. If he was romantically interested in Aerith too then he displayed it pretty badly for most of the game.

 

[abzy1200]

Based on what you said here, it doesn't seem like you were saying you were worried that's how it'd end though. These two paragraphs come across as you wanting things to end this way.

I was making the argument of what I thought would happen and why I was worrying about it. If I remember correctly I claimed a Clerith ending was a terrible one.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I was referring to the dream date btw, not the gold saucer one, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Ah okay sorry too- on the dream date?? That 'date' is already weird enough dude. Everyone hand-hold with their friends to support. Just like with GS date.. he knows Aerith is upset remembering Zack hence handhold her for support.

The date is weird enough and why are they in place like that hence to avoid upsetting her enough or embarrasing her in that moment since its happening anyways he let it happened.

( it was mentioned also in TOTP btw CLOUD and TIFA are almost the same when someone confessed to them to avoid embarrasment they just let it off or pretend they didnt hear it ) -- I'll try to look for the screenshot

btw its also same when Aerith hugs Cloud.. look he's just riding along.. look at how he hugs Tifa in resolution scene in remake. THAT IS WHERE E HAVE FEELINGS.

 

[Hellenic]

Interesting. I actually think it’s pretty ambiguous. I think it does have some romantic connotations but I also think it could just be a show of comfort.

Comfort is the better word i was trying to get across in my replies, thanks.

 

[LNK]

I was making the argument of what I thought would happen and why I was worrying about it. If I remember correctly I claimed a Clerith ending was a terrible one.

Yes, but you were also advocating for it to happen. This is why I was confused by what you said

 

[Ryushikaze]

( it was mentioned also in TOTP btw CLOUD and TIFA are almost the same when someone confessed to them to avoid embarrasment they just let it off or pretend they didnt hear it ) -- I'll try to look for the screenshot

Here's the relevant section
"As the boys neared their teenage years, their perception of Tifa shifted yet
again. She was no longer a childhood playmate. She was a girl, and one that
any of the three boys would have been happy to end up with. Their
afternoon adventures were soon peppered with attempts to flirt and show
off.
Still, the mood when they were together remained lighthearted, and Tifa,
for her part, didn’t mind the silly and somewhat flattering displays. She also
knew her line and was careful not to cross it: when any of the boys invited
her out alone, she responded with vague silence. She didn’t want to decline
outright and risk hurt feelings. Instead, she pretended not to catch the subtle
invitations and shrugged off the ones that were more outright.
"

 

[abzy1200]

Let’s be honest, if interlocking fingers is big progress… then imagine what making out with fireworks must make someone feel as they go home.

I know, I think so too. but I can't convince myself Cloud and Aerith are "just friends".

Everyone hand-hold with their friends to support

See, this is kinda odd since we know from quotes from Kitase that Cloud does harbor feelings for her, for atleast some time during the game. and support for what?

Aerith was the one who needed relief during their date and she initiated there and Cloud indulged her. He does consider Aerith dear to him just like he does everyone else close to him and so he let's her get that moment there. The later scene is essentially one of the many goodbyes he had with Aerith (seriously why did they have to do it so many damn times), where she sends him back to the rest of the party while she's dispersing into Lifestream particles or whatnot. It was a nice throwback to the AC scene and a deserved tender moment.

I can see why people would see it all romantically, but i just have a hard time buying it, considering everything that happened with them throughout the game, how he feels about Tifa, remembering Zack and that Aerith was still very much in love with Zack this time around. If he was romantically interested in Aerith too then he displayed it pretty badly for most of the game.

I'm not denying Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith, that much is obvious. But again, judging from quotes from Kitase (Namely, the "wavering" one) we know Cloud doesn't see Aerith as "just a friend who needs my support".

Yes, but you were also advocating for it to happen. This is why I was confused by what you said

I don't really think I was, but sorry for any misunderstanding, I'll try to be more articulate in the future.

 

[GamerSkull]

I actually agree that Cloud harbors some romantic feelings for Aerith, it’s just the ones he has for Tifa are far greater to point where they essentially override the ones he has for Aerith.

It’s why I’m confident that… had Aerith lived, Cloud would ultimately still pursue a romantic future with Tifa.

To add to that, I think the reason we see more scenes with Tifa in Rebirth is so that the devs can set up their relationship in Part 3.

Because if they didn’t, it might appear to come out of nowhere in Part 3 in a project that spans nearly a decade.

It’s fine in the OG since it’s all one game that is less than 40 hours.

This is why they’ve made Tifa more prominent during a section where she originally was not.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

See, this is kinda odd since we know from quotes from Kitase that Cloud does harbor feelings for her, for atleast some time during the game. and support for what?

• a friend dude a friend not everything is romantic.
• did you not feel how much Zack coded that dream date was?? Aerith didnt need to mentioned him the puppy posters are everywhere.. the things they did are same things she and Zack back did back in crisis core.. all of her reactions ( word by word btw ) is the same with her reaction to Zack

Cloud never understood all of that he's just 'riding along' he's supporting to her to whatever weirdness happening on this date.

1st date she mentioned Zack on that park
2nd date she mentioned him again ( I'm looking for you.. GS date)
3rd date she didnt need to mentioned Zack -- he's everywhere..

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It’s why I’m confident that… had Aerith lived, Cloud would ultimately still pursue a romantic future with Tifa.

Sorry for double post - I super agree! It will be too troublesome to go that route without having a lot of loose ends to tie up

 

[shady]

Tell me about it, same thing here.

See, I feel like Tifa's importance to the story is being highlighted earlier because otherwise she would be in the backseat of these games for like 7-8 years, that's a lot of time for one of the games two heroines to start shining.

I feel like some ambiguity was restored, and it has everything to do with Clouds reaction to Aeriths death. It always felt odd to me that Cloud had a more visceral reaction to Aerith dying than his reaction to Tifa "dying" during the nibelheim incident. Seeing as some stuff from fake Cloud carries over to the real Cloud (he still remembers how to fight, and he hasn't forgotten his bonds with other characters, he's not a COMPLETELY different person, I don't see why Aerith would be an exception) it would feel like, after all of Cleriths "non-optional" hand holding and the obvious parallels in Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time, I'll never let you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go", and that Tifa's date definitely isn't the one that "happened" (because then Cloud would actually be a womaniser, fake cloud or not), I don't think Rebirth really did anything to erase ambiguity in this debate, but again, maybe that's just me.

because it genuinely made me feel sick to my stomach seeing one of the final battles from the original shoehorned into Rebirth like that. Horrendous.

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it leaves Tifa and Zack as loose ends in a series the devs are probably already sick of continuing. I dont want this to happen, that's why I'm so worried over it.

Again, sorry for dooming, I just can't help myself

SPOILERS AHEAD

Listen I get you say you are dooming or being negative. We’ve all been there even in things unrelated to Final Fantasy VII or gaming in general, hell I can be a pessimist in real life for sure…

Your feelings are valid in this case, especially when they’ve fed LTD stuff in the past, but I don't think you are correct in a lot of what you think could happen, let me explain.

For starters let me preface this by saying, I think a lot of people struggle to seperate the blurred lines of "feelings" between characters in media, especially when they are complicated or expressed in ways that we wouldn't necessarily express these feelings ourselves, let me give 3 different examples.

Liking - The basic form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Aerith not knowing what kind of "like" she likes Cloud. Cloud liking Barret as a friend and so on)

Love - The secondary form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Cloud loving Zack as a friend and brother figure or Tifa loving Barret as a friend and father figure)

In Love - A completely seperate form of being interested in somebody, probably the highest you can express, this can only be in romantic form. (e.g. Aerith and Zack being in love with each other during their relationship and Cloud and Tifa being in love with each other since their teens. I don't think either of these is a reach considering all the material we have to go on.)

1. Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death (as well as in relation to Tifa's "death")
Now I don't see this as out of the ordinary at all, let's assume for a moment he has the same exact reaction in the OG, except the parts like the speech which he has blocked out in Rebirth. The only reason you don't see this in the OG and we can feign ignorance is because of the lack of graphics, animation and voice acting, but suffice to say i'm sure he is just as upset in the OG as he is in Rebirth, yet everything that happens in Disc 2 still happens regardless. Now why wouldn't Cloud be upset? For starters we play the game through the eyes of Cloud for the most part, we bond with him and feel what he feels because he's our gateway into the story and the lives of the characters.. it would be a failure on the part of the creators if we felt none of the pain or anguish Cloud feels and this is just as true when Aerith dies, because we are shown that whilst yes in Remake and Rebirth he can be quite abrasive towards Aerith and doesn't seem to reciprocate any flirty banter or potential interest, he can also be caring, understanding and comforting to her as well. This is because he loves Aerith even if he doesn't necessarily know this when the moment happens, yes I said loves, I know it's a scary word for shippers but it is the truth, but look at my definition above I don't think it's wildly out of pocket to say Cloud loves Aerith, maybe as something more than platonic but not quite so far enough as to be extremely romantic. What would you do and how would you feel if you tried to save somebody you loved only to instead see them brutally slain infront of you and you failed to save them. (Think his Mom, and especially what happened after losing Zack too.)

Now let's contrast this with what happens with Tifa earlier in the game, true, Cloud doesn't cry or get angry or anything like that, we do get the initial sense of disbelief and anguish as he cries out her name... but beyond that he immediately does what he has always done when his emotions are in turmoil when it comes to Tifa, his weaknesses are exploited (Sephiroth stepping in to exploit Cloud as he tries to save Tifa), his defenses are down (he becomes vulnerable as he regresses into a more vegetative state), as he becomes non verbal and unable to even move. It is only through a hard punch and Barret saying Tifa needs Cloud again that he is able to find the strength to even stand and walk almost drunkenly towards her. After this, we then get a cutscene where i'd argue we see a big glimpse of realCloud and he becomes the most open and vulnerable we've ever seen him up to this point, partially because he thought he'd almost lost her. Now a lot of this is because of the connection we know Cloud and Tifa have and how big of a role she has in his heart, her role in helping to make Cloud whole again, it harkens back to Cloud's state at the train station before Tifa found him, and it harkens back to the state the other Cloud is in in Zack's world, where he hasn't met Tifa again.

2. Aerith in the Lifestream sequence (instead of Tifa)
This is one I don't particularly understand, although I can see where you are coming from.. I wouldn't rule out the prospect of Aerith appearing in the Lifestream in some shape or form, even if it's just to guide Cloud and Tifa and protecting them from mako poisoning and such. But the idea of Aerith being the one to make Cloud whole and "fix him" so to speak with Tifa being erased from the equation as a whole just makes absolutely no sense from a narrative or character perspective. For starters I feel like a lot of people have either forgotten or don't fully understand what the Lifestream sequence even entails, it's not a best hits collection of Cloud's saddest memories or biggest failures which anyone can replace Tifa in helping Cloud get over them. It's a realisation that the Cloud we've come to know and understand was never the real Cloud all along, that we've been playing as not only an extremely unreliable narrator but a combination of different personalities stuffed into a Cloud shaped shell, with the real Cloud bursting to break free. Genuinely what purpose would Aerith or Aerith's death being shown in the Lifestream serve to restore Cloud back to the real Cloud? The narrative and characterization demands that Tifa can be the only one to help Cloud piece together what he has lost for two reasons.

2.1 - Because she is the only one in the party who has even met the real Cloud.
By Aerith's own admission in the games and even the side materials such as the novels, she never met the real Cloud, try as she might, up to that point... it would be impossible for her to help him in this regard. Hell you could make a better argument for Zack helping Cloud out than Aerith, he at least knew the real guy for a while. However Tifa is the only one that is able to confirm to him that he existed as a person before what happened at the Nibelheim mansion because she knew of him and his mother from childhood, and is the only one able to combat Sephiroth's gaslighting in this manner. Zack also would not work because of the next reason, which even Zack himself knows.

2.2 - Cloud is in love with Tifa Lockhart, not Aerith, they share mutual feelings, and he has buried these feelings deep within his real self.
Watch the OG Lifestream sequence where they confirm mutual feelings, read the novels such as TOTP (Tifa loves and wants to spend her life with Cloud) or the recent 2,000 Gil Cloud short story (Cloud wanted to become someone special to Tifa) hell just experience all that FF7 has to offer and there's no way anyone can deny this fact, even if they try to convince you otherwise. Cloud's whole motivation at this point is to become what he considers as worthy to be with Tifa because he's in love with her, with the irony being that Tifa never wanted or needed Cloud to become something he is not to be with her (TOTP) but of course both being shy they are unable to fully convey their feelings at the time. Thus a big part of the reason Tifa is the only one able to piece together real Cloud is because whilst he himself may be fragmented or 'hollow', his feelings for Tifa are something that have remained evermore. This is the reason you see his different physical and emotional reactions to and with Tifa throughout the games, even if they only happen subconciously. It's not a coincidence that Nomura himself said that real Cloud is somebody that only bubbles to the surface when he is around Tifa. This is why such scenes as the Lifestream exist in Gongaga -- This is the devs showing us that the planet considers Tifa important enough to protect her from Sephiroth and show her who real Cloud is because it knows the role she is about to play in restoring Cloud in Part 3, it's foreshadowing at its finest.) -- Consider as well that Tifa's precious memories consist predominantly of Cloud and vice versa. To replace Tifa here with Aerith would take a considerable rewrite and redefinition of the Lifestream sequence concept as a whole and remove a large and important part of Cloud and Tifa's carefully crafted arcs that intertwine with each other.

3. Cloud and Aerith will be canon in the endgame of the Retrilogy
Now this I can see why you might feel this way, for starters there is a lot of (mis)information going around the internet about a lot of things in relation to the 'LTD', what's optional, what's canon, who said what, in what language, who's in the credits, who knows Japanese culture better etc etc. It's all quite exhausting and quite frankly annoying but the internet will internet and it is what it is. I'm going to present some points as to why I think not only will this not happen, but would be extremely negligent and destructive for the devs to do this at this point.

3.1 - Hollow and NPTK
The discourse around these songs has been going since Remake and up until a week or so ago nobody would shut up about NPTK especially. But here's the thing,the developers have confirmed that Hollow is a song about Cloud's feelings, and the developers have confirmed NPTK is a song about Aerith's feelings. What they haven't specifically stated (to my knowledge) is that they are songs about their feelings towards each other and each other alone and there is a distinction between these two things. We already know from what happened last week that Nojima himself spoke on camera -- and later doubled down in a tweet -- that NPTK is a song about all of the people Aerith has loved, loves or who she has come to love through her life's journey up until this point, knowing that it likely isn't going to last much longer, yes this does include Cloud but it also includes Zack, Tifa, Elmyra, Ifalna etc. No amount of essay's, harassment, crying or otherwise will outweigh the words of the person who created and wrote the song as well as wrote the story and scenario of the Retrilogy and has been involved in the world of Final Fantasy VII since it's inception. As for Hollow, whilst we haven't had such a confirmation from Nojima or anyone else, suffice to say Cloud referencing being 'Hollow' in reference to forgetting who Zack was and losing himself to degredation, as well as the song itself playing in the Badlands where Zack died should be all the confirmation you need to know that the song is about more than just 'Cloud's undying burning love for Aerith and his wishing to be with her forever.'

3.2 - Cloud and Tifa's budding romance
In Remake if you didn't feel the tension and desire from both characters for each other then you were either being willfully ignorant when playing it, the constant need to touch each other, flirt, have serious conversations, parallels between saving each other etc etc was already pretty phenomenal stuff. Hell even Aerith -- before losing her memories -- seemed to engage and encourage the connection between Cloud and Tifa herself. Now on top of this, rather than think to themselves, okay we know we're going for a Cloud and Aerith endgame so let's tone down the Cloud and Tifa stuff and make sure we establish Cloud and Aerith as the true pairing, they instead doubled down on the Cloud and Tifa connection and decided to up the ante considerably. More touching, flirting, hugging, angst, romantic tension you could cut with a knife, a nearly kiss, an actual full on kiss, hand holding... Cloud fantastising about multiple Tifa's, Cloud and Tifa constantly touching and reassuring each other as they begin to feel lost in their trauma's, Cloud constantly staring at Tifa, Cloud's reaction to Tifa in a bikini with her music in the background, Cloud confirming mutual feelings on the Gondola, Cloud holding Tifa's hand during the NPTK performance, foreshadowing of the Lifestream sequence, references to the flower on Tifa's doorstep, their connection, extremely well crafted body and facial animation showing desire between the two or them, cinematography and camera work showing Cloud POV focusing on Tifa on multiple occasions, literally seeking her out in a crowd. I could go on and on, their whole arc in Rebirth is basically 'Romantic Tropes 101: A Guide to Crafting a Romance in Media' you can reference umpteen amout of films and literature when it comes to the beats of the romantic storycrafting in this game between these two.

3.3 - Cloud and Aerith themselves
As I mentioned above, Cloud does love Aerith (in my view, platonically), at least you might figure he does by the end of the game, and we know for certain Aerith at least likes Cloud (at minimum loves in a platonic sense) but she isn't sure if this is romantic or platonic, and unfortunately for her she never gets the chance to find out. They have some really nice moments in the game that is for sure, to say they get absolutely nothing would be a lie, or you've just skipped a lot of Aerith stuff on purpose. But here's the kicker.. in comparison to what we see from Cloud and Tifa, is there anything that Cloud and Aerith does in the game that could be considered extremely out of the ordinary for two people who love each other very much, just not romantically? Because I would argue kissing somebody is a sign of romantic love where as holding somebody's hand (fingers or not) might indicate there is something there but there is enough ambiguity to say well.. it's not a kiss so where does that leave it, context is key after all. I've mentioned above that actually Cloud can be quite abrasive towards Aerith at times, especially when she becomes overtly friendly or flirty (Costa del Sol for example), she also has to grab him constantly against his will as he's not so fortcoming (Grabbing his arm on the Gondola, where he even questions 'Aerith?'), and they never seem to be in step with each other in this regard. Now you can argue that is her personality and that is fine, but consider the initial Gold Saucer date when they attempt to go on the Skywheel for example. Both Aerith and Yuffie immediately grab Cloud's arm forcefully and try to drag him forward onto the wheel where it quickly cuts to it shutting down, in comparison to Tifa who carefully holds his hand and checks to make sure Cloud doesn't want to back out of it before proceeding forward where they are in lock step with each other, where the camera lingers a moment longer on the two of them walking forward before cutting to the Skywheel cutting forward. There's a lot more I can say here but this post is already extremely long.. the only other thing I will say is consider the Church confession and the S5 date.. leaving the Zack parallels out of this as i'll mention him in a minute, consider that the S5 date went horribly wrong from all angles, and consider that whilst Aerith was confessing she liked Cloud in the Church but wasn't sure what kind of like that is, Cloud hasn't once reciprocated any romantic intent towards Aerith throughout the entire game, he hasn't kissed her, hasn't affirmed any mutual feelings, hasn't once encouraged her or led her on to be romantic in any way. Hell even at the end after everything has happened all they have is some friendly banter between themselves, zero romantic confessions or physical contact. I'm also not gonna get into the romantisation of what heppsn at the end because quite frankly it's stupid. Please I welcome anyone to correct me with evidence if I'm wrong on this. Instead what we do get at the Church is there is a possibility for Cloud to even call Aerith specifically a friend (in the Japanese dub) and regardless of what Cloud says Aerith gets her closure by confirming that she knows where her and Cloud stand now.

3.4 - Zack
Some will say there is a lack of Zack and Aerith moments in this game but I don't see that at all, there's plenty enough for a big pay off in Part 3. I'm not going to get into this complete because I made a post a few pages back about Zack and Aerith. Suffice to say in the game Aerith herself confirms she still has feelings for Zack, she herself even shows throughout the game she is conflicted about her feelings for Zack and what could be potentially something she feels for Cloud. Zack's sequences also show him totally devoted to Aerith, they touch hands through the lifestream, they look up at the same sky as the scene cuts to Aerith from Zack, Aerith helps Zack out at the end multiple times and Zack ends up in a church with flowers blooming talking about reuniting again. Like do we honestly think they would reintroduce Zack only for Aerith to cast him aside for Cloud immediately? That they'd show us Zack getting his heart trampled on for some reason? That Cloud would remember who Zack is and how in love he is with Aerith only for him to immediately pursue her? It's a crazy notion and one the writers won't indulge, they aren't writing a Netflix high school drama here.

There is so much more I can say on each point, but I'm going to wrap this up because it's already an extremely long post and I imagine people rolling their eyes when they see posts this long. Suffice to say as i've mentioned many many times before, the time to push for Cloud and Aerith endgame was from the very beginning of Remake when they were first writing this whole Retrilogy, because you could write a compelling Cloud and Aerith romance into the game without having to assasinate your characters and change and belittle huge parts of the story that has existed since 1997 that way. That never happened however, and maybe you could make the argument that okay, Rebirth is now the time to solidify that Cloud and Aerith endgame because this is their moment to shine, as it was in OG, we haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole in Remake that we can't rescue this.. instead they decided to double down, make Cloud and Tifa kiss, show Zack caressing Aerith's cheek and crying over her in the actual opening scene and everything else i've described above. Now we are 2 games into a trilogy and we already know a lot of the things that happen between Cloud and Tifa in this next part. Everything they have created so far now means that for Cloud and Aerith to be endgame in part 3 the devs would have to trample all over the likes of Cloud, Tifa, Zack and Aerith as characters, but also pull out threads, rewrite and basically besmirch the very story they've carefully crafted up to this point. This could have all been avoided had they planned for it since Remake, but they clearly haven't and now they've basically cornered themselves on the direction they can go with this, which is Cloud and Tifa and Zack and Aerith. Cloud and Aerith romantic endgame at this point would be changing the game and it's characters so drastically it might as well not be the third part of the Retrilogy, hell it might as well not be Final Fantasy VII at all, but some kind of canon AU project to please a certain subsection of fans.

 

[Hellenic]

At the end of the day, Cloud having romantic feelings for Aerith or not is not gonna matter in the overall picture, when those feelings would never be more than what he feels for Tifa. Either way, to me it's clear that they are setting up the CT and ZA dynamics for the third game and what ambiguity you might feel won't really matter at that point. People will ofc keep denying things no matter what ends up happening when this whole project is done.

 

[LNK]

I actually agree that Cloud harbors some romantic feelings for Aerith, it’s just the ones he has for Tifa are far greater to point where they essentially override the ones he has for Aerith.

It’s why I’m confident that… had Aerith lived, Cloud would ultimately still pursue a romantic future with Tifa.

To add to that, I think the reason we see more scenes with Tifa in Rebirth is so that the devs can set up their relationship in Part 3.

Because if the didn’t, it might appear to come out of nowhere in Part 3 in a project that spans nearly a decade.

It’s fine in the OG since it’s all one game that is less than 40 hours.

This is why they’ve made Tifa more prominent during a section where she originally was not.

Same here. In Remake, and possibly some of Rebirth, you could make the argument Cloud liked Aerith in that way. The GS date definitely showed who her prefers though. In the end, that's all that matters.
Like, I'm still attracted to many women, but I'm with my girlfriend, and she's the only one I want to be with and have sexy times with haha

 

[GamerSkull]

Same here. In Remake, and possibly some of Rebirth, you could make the argument Cloud liked Aerith in that way. The GS date definitely showed who her prefers though. In the end, that's all that matters.
Like, I'm still attracted to many women, but I'm with my girlfriend, and she's the only one I want to be with and have sexy times with haha

Yeah, let’s be real. Aerith asked Cloud to sit next to him, which he didn’t do. And then later, he shows a comforting and somewhat romantic gesture because he knows she is sad about Zack.

With Tifa, she says “maybe I’m reading too much into it” but Cloud’s like “Nope.” And then he straight up kisses her.

One of these unequivocally romantic. The other is… potentially romantic.

 

[abzy1200]

This is the correct spot, you are not rude, and forgive my own presumptuousness, but do you suffer from an anxiety disorder by chance?

No, you're alright, don't be sorry. To my knowledge, I do not have an anxiety disorder, however I might be getting tested for austim sometime in the near future, but I don't think I've ever been more confident on a subject as me having autism or not. I'm certain it's a profound "no".

And if it was a girl you had literally never considered romantically and also thought was still having feelings for her dead ex boyfriend who was your best friend?

well that would definitely complicate things, but I thought Cloud had atleast some feelings for her while he was living out the fake persona no?

I actually agree that Cloud harbors some romantic feelings for Aerith, it’s just the ones he has for Tifa are far greater to point where they essentially override the ones he has for Aerith.

It’s why I’m confident that… had Aerith lived, Cloud would ultimately still pursue a romantic future with Tifa.

Absolutely, I thought that was relatively clear.

You have made a fundamental error in logic here, as others have pointed out. "If this happens, it would be terrible" does not mean "If it is terrible, this will definitely happen."

See, I didn't mean for the point to be taken in isolation, I tried to say:

There are reasons I am worried about Cloti moments being cheapened, and that it would restore some ambiguity, and that there was reasonable belief that the re;trilogy would have a bad ending.
Clerith ending=bad
re;trilogy=will probably have a less than good ending

Listen I get you say you are dooming or being negative. We’ve all been there even in things unrelated to Final Fantasy VII or gaming in general, hell I can be a pessimist in real life for sure…

Thank you for writing this for me, I really appreciate it.

 

[LNK]

Yeah, let’s be real. Aerith asked Cloud to sit next to him, which he didn’t do. And then later, he shows a comforting and somewhat romantic gesture because he knows she is sad about Zack.

With Tifa, she says “maybe I’m reading too much into it” but Cloud’s like “Nope.” And then he straight up kisses her.

One of these unequivocally romantic. The other is… potentially romantic.

Which if I was in Cloud's position, I would've done the same things to the girls. In regards to Aerith, just because I preferred Tifa, I wouldn't have not comforted her in that moment. Clearly, she was having a tough time

 

[GamerSkull]

Which if I was in Cloud's position, I would've done the same things to the girls. In regards to Aerith, just because I preferred Tifa, I wouldn't have not comforted her in that moment. Clearly, she was having a tough time

Yeah, if I was friends with a girl. And her boyfriend happened to also be my friend. And he died.

And she sat next to me and said “let me have this moment.” And held my hand with interlocked fingers, I’d reciprocate. Because she needs the comfort.

 

[GamerSkull]

well that would definitely complicate things, but I thought Cloud had atleast some feelings for her while he was living out the fake persona no?

To be honest, I actually think that if Cloud had feelings for Aerith then they died the minute he remembered Zack in Nibelheim.

In fact, he almost seems sad that Zack was not able to reunite with Aerith.

 

[Hellenic]

SPOILERS AHEAD

Listen I get you say you are dooming or being negative. We’ve all been there even in things unrelated to Final Fantasy VII or gaming in general, hell I can be a pessimist in real life for sure…

Your feelings are valid in this case, especially when they’ve fed LTD stuff in the past, but I don't think you are correct in a lot of what you think could happen, let me explain.

For starters let me preface this by saying, I think a lot of people struggle to seperate the blurred lines of "feelings" between characters in media, especially when they are complicated or expressed in ways that we wouldn't necessarily express these feelings ourselves, let me give 3 different examples.

Liking - The basic form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Aerith not knowing what kind of "like" she likes Cloud. Cloud liking Barret as a friend and so on)

Love - The secondary form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Cloud loving Zack as a friend and brother figure or Tifa loving Barret as a friend and father figure)

In Love - A completely seperate form of being interested in somebody, probably the highest you can express, this can only be in romantic form. (e.g. Aerith and Zack being in love with each other during their relationship and Cloud and Tifa being in love with each other since their teens. I don't think either of these is a reach considering all the material we have to go on.)

1. Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death (as well as in relation to Tifa's "death")
Now I don't see this as out of the ordinary at all, let's assume for a moment he has the same exact reaction in the OG, except the parts like the speech which he has blocked out in Rebirth. The only reason you don't see this in the OG and we can feign ignorance is because of the lack of graphics, animation and voice acting, but suffice to say i'm sure he is just as upset in the OG as he is in Rebirth, yet everything that happens in Disc 2 still happens regardless. Now why wouldn't Cloud be upset? For starters we play the game through the eyes of Cloud for the most part, we bond with him and feel what he feels because he's our gateway into the story and the lives of the characters.. it would be a failure on the part of the creators if we felt none of the pain or anguish Cloud feels and this is just as true when Aerith dies, because we are shown that whilst yes in Remake and Rebirth he can be quite abrasive towards Aerith and doesn't seem to reciprocate any flirty banter or potential interest, he can also be caring, understanding and comforting to her as well. This is because he loves Aerith even if he doesn't necessarily know this when the moment happens, yes I said loves, I know it's a scary word for shippers but it is the truth, but look at my definition above I don't think it's wildly out of pocket to say Cloud loves Aerith, maybe as something more than platonic but not quite so far enough as to be extremely romantic. What would you do and how would you feel if you tried to save somebody you loved only to instead see them brutally slain infront of you and you failed to save them. (Think his Mom, and especially what happened after losing Zack too.)

Now let's contrast this with what happens with Tifa earlier in the game, true, Cloud doesn't cry or get angry or anything like that, we do get the initial sense of disbelief and anguish as he cries out her name... but beyond that he immediately does what he has always done when his emotions are in turmoil when it comes to Tifa, his weaknesses are exploited (Sephiroth stepping in to exploit Cloud as he tries to save Tifa), his defenses are down (he becomes vulnerable as he regresses into a more vegetative state), as he becomes non verbal and unable to even move. It is only through a hard punch and Barret saying Tifa needs Cloud again that he is able to find the strength to even stand and walk almost drunkenly towards her. After this, we then get a cutscene where i'd argue we see a big glimpse of realCloud and he becomes the most open and vulnerable we've ever seen him up to this point, partially because he thought he'd almost lost her. Now a lot of this is because of the connection we know Cloud and Tifa have and how big of a role she has in his heart, her role in helping to make Cloud whole again, it harkens back to Cloud's state at the train station before Tifa found him, and it harkens back to the state the other Cloud is in in Zack's world, where he hasn't met Tifa again.

2. Aerith in the Lifestream sequence (instead of Tifa)
This is one I don't particularly understand, although I can see where you are coming from.. I wouldn't rule out the prospect of Aerith appearing in the Lifestream in some shape or form, even if it's just to guide Cloud and Tifa and protecting them from mako poisoning and such. But the idea of Aerith being the one to make Cloud whole and "fix him" so to speak with Tifa being erased from the equation as a whole just makes absolutely no sense from a narrative or character perspective. For starters I feel like a lot of people have either forgotten or don't fully understand what the Lifestream sequence even entails, it's not a best hits collection of Cloud's saddest memories or biggest failures which anyone can replace Tifa in helping Cloud get over them. It's a realisation that the Cloud we've come to know and understand was never the real Cloud all along, that we've been playing as not only an extremely unreliable narrator but a combination of different personalities stuffed into a Cloud shaped shell, with the real Cloud bursting to break free. Genuinely what purpose would Aerith or Aerith's death being shown in the Lifestream serve to restore Cloud back to the real Cloud? The narrative and characterization demands that Tifa can be the only one to help Cloud piece together what he has lost for two reasons.

2.1 - Because she is the only one in the party who has even met the real Cloud.
By Aerith's own admission in the games and even the side materials such as the novels, she never met the real Cloud, try as she might, up to that point... it would be impossible for her to help him in this regard. Hell you could make a better argument for Zack helping Cloud out than Aerith, he at least knew the real guy for a while. However Tifa is the only one that is able to confirm to him that he existed as a person before what happened at the Nibelheim mansion because she knew of him and his mother from childhood, and is the only one able to combat Sephiroth's gaslighting in this manner. Zack also would not work because of the next reason, which even Zack himself knows.

2.2 - Cloud is in love with Tifa Lockhart, not Aerith, they share mutual feelings, and he has buried these feelings deep within his real self.
Watch the OG Lifestream sequence where they confirm mutual feelings, read the novels such as TOTP (Tifa loves and wants to spend her life with Cloud) or the recent 2,000 Gil Cloud short story (Cloud wanted to become someone special to Tifa) hell just experience all that FF7 has to offer and there's no way anyone can deny this fact, even if they try to convince you otherwise. Cloud's whole motivation at this point is to become what he considers as worthy to be with Tifa because he's in love with her, with the irony being that Tifa never wanted or needed Cloud to become something he is not to be with her (TOTP) but of course both being shy they are unable to fully convey their feelings at the time. Thus a big part of the reason Tifa is the only one able to piece together real Cloud is because whilst he himself may be fragmented or 'hollow', his feelings for Tifa are something that have remained evermore. This is the reason you see his different physical and emotional reactions to and with Tifa throughout the games, even if they only happen subconciously. It's not a coincidence that Nomura himself said that real Cloud is somebody that only bubbles to the surface when he is around Tifa. This is why such scenes as the Lifestream exist in Gongaga -- This is the devs showing us that the planet considers Tifa important enough to protect her from Sephiroth and show her who real Cloud is because it knows the role she is about to play in restoring Cloud in Part 3, it's foreshadowing at its finest.) -- Consider as well that Tifa's precious memories consist predominantly of Cloud and vice versa. To replace Tifa here with Aerith would take a considerable rewrite and redefinition of the Lifestream sequence concept as a whole and remove a large and important part of Cloud and Tifa's carefully crafted arcs that intertwine with each other.

3. Cloud and Aerith will be canon in the endgame of the Retrilogy
Now this I can see why you might feel this way, for starters there is a lot of (mis)information going around the internet about a lot of things in relation to the 'LTD', what's optional, what's canon, who said what, in what language, who's in the credits, who knows Japanese culture better etc etc. It's all quite exhausting and quite frankly annoying but the internet will internet and it is what it is. I'm going to present some points as to why I think not only will this not happen, but would be extremely negligent and destructive for the devs to do this at this point.

3.1 - Hollow and NPTK
The discourse around these songs has been going since Remake and up until a week or so ago nobody would shut up about NPTK especially. But here's the thing,the developers have confirmed that Hollow is a song about Cloud's feelings, and the developers have confirmed NPTK is a song about Aerith's feelings. What they haven't specifically stated (to my knowledge) is that they are songs about their feelings towards each other and each other alone and there is a distinction between these two things. We already know from what happened last week that Nojima himself spoke on camera -- and later doubled down in a tweet -- that NPTK is a song about all of the people Aerith has loved, loves or who she has come to love through her life's journey up until this point, knowing that it likely isn't going to last much longer, yes this does include Cloud but it also includes Zack, Tifa, Elmyra, Ifalna etc. No amount of essay's, harassment, crying or otherwise will outweigh the words of the person who created and wrote the song as well as wrote the story and scenario of the Retrilogy and has been involved in the world of Final Fantasy VII since it's inception. As for Hollow, whilst we haven't had such a confirmation from Nojima or anyone else, suffice to say Cloud referencing being 'Hollow' in reference to forgetting who Zack was and losing himself to degredation, as well as the song itself playing in the Badlands where Zack died should be all the confirmation you need to know that the song is about more than just 'Cloud's undying burning love for Aerith and his wishing to be with her forever.'

3.2 - Cloud and Tifa's budding romance
In Remake if you didn't feel the tension and desire from both characters for each other then you were either being willfully ignorant when playing it, the constant need to touch each other, flirt, have serious conversations, parallels between saving each other etc etc was already pretty phenomenal stuff. Hell even Aerith -- before losing her memories -- seemed to engage and encourage the connection between Cloud and Tifa herself. Now on top of this, rather than think to themselves, okay we know we're going for a Cloud and Aerith endgame so let's tone down the Cloud and Tifa stuff and make sure we establish Cloud and Aerith as the true pairing, they instead doubled down on the Cloud and Tifa connection and decided to up the ante considerably. More touching, flirting, hugging, angst, romantic tension you could cut with a knife, a nearly kiss, an actual full on kiss, hand holding... Cloud fantastising about multiple Tifa's, Cloud and Tifa constantly touching and reassuring each other as they begin to feel lost in their trauma's, Cloud constantly staring at Tifa, Cloud's reaction to Tifa in a bikini with her music in the background, Cloud confirming mutual feelings on the Gondola, Cloud holding Tifa's hand during the NPTK performance, foreshadowing of the Lifestream sequence, references to the flower on Tifa's doorstep, their connection, extremely well crafted body and facial animation showing desire between the two or them, cinematography and camera work showing Cloud POV focusing on Tifa on multiple occasions, literally seeking her out in a crowd. I could go on and on, their whole arc in Rebirth is basically 'Romantic Tropes 101: A Guide to Crafting a Romance in Media' you can reference umpteen amout of films and literature when it comes to the beats of the romantic storycrafting in this game between these two.

3.3 - Cloud and Aerith themselves
As I mentioned above, Cloud does love Aerith (in my view, platonically), at least you might figure he does by the end of the game, and we know for certain Aerith at least likes Cloud (at minimum loves in a platonic sense) but she isn't sure if this is romantic or platonic, and unfortunately for her she never gets the chance to find out. They have some really nice moments in the game that is for sure, to say they get absolutely nothing would be a lie, or you've just skipped a lot of Aerith stuff on purpose. But here's the kicker.. in comparison to what we see from Cloud and Tifa, is there anything that Cloud and Aerith does in the game that could be considered extremely out of the ordinary for two people who love each other very much, just not romantically? Because I would argue kissing somebody is a sign of romantic love where as holding somebody's hand (fingers or not) might indicate there is something there but there is enough ambiguity to say well.. it's not a kiss so where does that leave it, context is key after all. I've mentioned above that actually Cloud can be quite abrasive towards Aerith at times, especially when she becomes overtly friendly or flirty (Costa del Sol for example), she also has to grab him constantly against his will as he's not so fortcoming (Grabbing his arm on the Gondola, where he even questions 'Aerith?'), and they never seem to be in step with each other in this regard. Now you can argue that is her personality and that is fine, but consider the initial Gold Saucer date when they attempt to go on the Skywheel for example. Both Aerith and Yuffie immediately grab Cloud's arm forcefully and try to drag him forward onto the wheel where it quickly cuts to it shutting down, in comparison to Tifa who carefully holds his hand and checks to make sure Cloud doesn't want to back out of it before proceeding forward where they are in lock step with each other, where the camera lingers a moment longer on the two of them walking forward before cutting to the Skywheel cutting forward. There's a lot more I can say here but this post is already extremely long.. the only other thing I will say is consider the Church confession and the S5 date.. leaving the Zack parallels out of this as i'll mention him in a minute, consider that the S5 date went horribly wrong from all angles, and consider that whilst Aerith was confessing she liked Cloud in the Church but wasn't sure what kind of like that is, Cloud hasn't once reciprocated any romantic intent towards Aerith throughout the entire game, he hasn't kissed her, hasn't affirmed any mutual feelings, hasn't once encouraged her or led her on to be romantic in any way. Hell even at the end after everything has happened all they have is some friendly banter between themselves, zero romantic confessions or physical contact. I'm also not gonna get into the romantisation of what heppsn at the end because quite frankly it's stupid. Please I welcome anyone to correct me with evidence if I'm wrong on this. Instead what we do get at the Church is there is a possibility for Cloud to even call Aerith specifically a friend (in the Japanese dub) and regardless of what Cloud says Aerith gets her closure by confirming that she knows where her and Cloud stand now.

3.4 - Zack
Some will say there is a lack of Zack and Aerith moments in this game but I don't see that at all, there's plenty enough for a big pay off in Part 3. I'm not going to get into this complete because I made a post a few pages back about Zack and Aerith. Suffice to say in the game Aerith herself confirms she still has feelings for Zack, she herself even shows throughout the game she is conflicted about her feelings for Zack and what could be potentially something she feels for Cloud. Zack's sequences also show him totally devoted to Aerith, they touch hands through the lifestream, they look up at the same sky as the scene cuts to Aerith from Zack, Aerith helps Zack out at the end multiple times and Zack ends up in a church with flowers blooming talking about reuniting again. Like do we honestly think they would reintroduce Zack only for Aerith to cast him aside for Cloud immediately? That they'd show us Zack getting his heart trampled on for some reason? That Cloud would remember who Zack is and how in love he is with Aerith only for him to immediately pursue her? It's a crazy notion and one the writers won't indulge, they aren't writing a Netflix high school drama here.

There is so much more I can say on each point, but I'm going to wrap this up because it's already an extremely long post and I imagine people rolling their eyes when they see posts this long. Suffice to say as i've mentioned many many times before, the time to push for Cloud and Aerith endgame was from the very beginning of Remake when they were first writing this whole Retrilogy, because you could write a compelling Cloud and Aerith romance into the game without having to assasinate your characters and change and belittle huge parts of the story that has existed since 1997 that way. That never happened however, and maybe you could make the argument that okay, Rebirth is now the time to solidify that Cloud and Aerith endgame because this is their moment to shine, as it was in OG, we haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole in Remake that we can't rescue this.. instead they decided to double down, make Cloud and Tifa kiss, show Zack caressing Aerith's cheek and crying over her in the actual opening scene and everything else i've described above. Now we are 2 games into a trilogy and we already know a lot of the things that happen between Cloud and Tifa in this next part. Everything they have created so far now means that for Cloud and Aerith to be endgame in part 3 the devs would have to trample all over the likes of Cloud, Tifa, Zack and Aerith as characters, but also pull out threads, rewrite and basically besmirch the very story they've carefully crafted up to this point. This could have all been avoided had they planned for it since Remake, but they clearly haven't and now they've basically cornered themselves on the direction they can go with this, which is Cloud and Tifa and Zack and Aerith. Cloud and Aerith romantic endgame at this point would be changing the game and it's characters so drastically it might as well not be the third part of the Retrilogy, hell it might as well not be Final Fantasy VII at all, but some kind of canon AU project to please a certain subsection of fans.

I wish i could put things into words half as well as you do. Thanks for this comprehensive explanation.

 

[abzy1200]

I wouldn't rule out the prospect of Aerith appearing in the Lifestream in some shape or form, even if it's just to guide Cloud and Tifa and protecting them from mako poisoning and such

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding, this is what I meant. I doubt Square Enix would be that mean to Tifa. There's no doubt in my mind Tifa is the only one who can fix Cloud.

My worries stem from the fact that in the original game, his mind is very preoccupied with Tifa, Aeriths name isn't even mentioned if I remember correctly. In the re;trilogy, I feel like there's no way they won't have to address those delusions about Aerith that he experiences at the end of Rebirth. Which is why I felt like it would cheapen Clouds "I did everything for you" moment if they have to go over how he felt about Aerith aswell.

 

[hytekz]

It's really unreal, only in this fan base, we still question who the main character love after kissing one and only one other character.
The devs went out of their way to have that kiss specifically in the game where Aerith is still alive to shutdown all the "what if" and yet here we are.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No, you're alright, don't be sorry. To my knowledge, I do not have an anxiety disorder, however I might be getting tested for austim sometime in the near future, but I don't think I've ever been more confident on a subject as me having autism or not. I'm certain it's a profound "no".

I ask because you seem to be spiraling on this subject in a similar matter to anxiety spirals my wife and some other people I have known with anxiety have fallen into. You fixate and circle around a negative thought and it's all you can think about.

well that would definitely complicate things, but I thought Cloud had atleast some feelings for her while he was living out the fake persona no?

I'm going to say to you what I've been saying for... fuck, over 16 years now- please show us where in the text Cloud shows unambiguous signs of holding romantic feelings for Aerith. Not merely attraction or realizing she's a looker, but some sort of indica that he is interested in her in a romantic sense. It might seem pedantic- and I am well known as a master pedant - but there is a difference between attraction and romantic interest, and even still a gulf between interest and intent.

See, I didn't mean for the point to be taken in isolation, I tried to say:

There are reasons I am worried about Cloti moments being cheapened, and that it would restore some ambiguity, and that there was reasonable belief that the re;trilogy would have a bad ending.
Clerith ending=bad
re;trilogy=will probably have a less than good ending

But this is still faulty logic. A C/A ending would be a terrible way to end the series. But it's not THE ONLY terrible way things can happen. Your logic seems to be "If A happened, B result, therefore if B result A MUST be the cause."

To be honest, I actually think that if Cloud had feelings for Aerith then they died the minute he remembered Zack in Nibelheim.

In fact, he almost seems sad that Zack was not able to reunite with Aerith.

He feels terrible for the both of them. Cloud really likes Zack and Aerith, and as of rebirth, I'm sure he likes the idea of them together.

It's really unreal, only in this fan base, we still question who the main character love after kissing one and only one other character.
The devs went out of their way to have that kiss specifically in the game where Aerith is still alive to shutdown all the "what if" and yet here we are.

It is fascinating that there are both those in denial and those in dread despite the clear and unambiguous evidence that when presented with the opportunity, Cloud will kiss Tifa and comfort Aerith.