SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
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thetriplerhyme
I mean, Aerith was pretty special to him too, romantic or otherwise. That, and Jenova being at play does make it believable to me.

btw I'm not sure if matters so much but Cloud called Aerith Nakama even back in Remake but in rebirth he called Jessie - Tomodachi


I'm not an expert in japanese languange but someone told me that a Nakama is like a colleague or comrade ( part of the team ) nothing personal but tomdachi is like a close friend.

Soo cloud is not treating Aerith like a close friend?? Just comrade?? I'm not downgrading or anything negative but just curious.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
- can you provide basis?? from Remake to Rebirth nothing has been cheapened or gutten in Cloti moments on opposite site it was highlighted. But the story is different now because people are aware of Tifa's connection to Cloud soo there's noo need to put her into too much dark unlike OG.
I think they will because sales for this game obviously weren't as high as they had hoped, they're keeping relatively quiet on it, being even more blatant than they already were in the original would only drive away fans (Cleriths). Plus, I don't feel like Nomura would jump at the chance to remove any and all interpretations from his works, even if they are wrong, he's just like that. He has already in the past been a sort of enemy to Cloti (Meddling in what Nojima wanted portrayed in kingdom hearts, and that infamous "I don't have a clue" quote from him)
Does that make sense?
If only Advent Children was a slightly better film, one can only wish it had like 5 minutes of extra runtime to erase the anti-Cloti view it loves to give to people who aren't in the know.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
btw I'm not sure if matters so much but Cloud called Aerith Nakama even back in Remake but in rebirth he called Jessie - Tomodachi


I'm not an expert in japanese languange but someone told me that a Nakama is like a colleague or comrade ( part of the team ) nothing personal but tomdachi is like a close friend.

Soo cloud is not treating Aerith like a close friend?? Just comrade?? I'm not downgrading or anything negative but just curious.
I’m pretty sure Nakama is a huge friendship thing too.

Take One Piece for example, Luffy makes a lot of nakama, including his crew. You’d be hard-pressed to argue he only sees these people as colleagues.

I think Nakama is an extra special form of friendship as far as I know. I’m not an expert.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think they will because sales for this game obviously weren't as high as they had hoped, they're keeping relatively quiet on it, being even more blatant than they already were in the original would only drive away fans (Cleriths). Plus, I don't feel like Nomura would jump at the chance to remove any and all interpretations from his works, even if they are wrong, he's just like that. He has already in the past been a sort of enemy to Cloti (Meddling in what Nojima wanted portrayed in kingdom hearts, and that infamous "I don't have a clue" quote from him)

If only Advent Children was a slightly better film, one can only wish it had like 5 minutes of extra runtime to erase the anti-Cloti view it loves to give to people who aren't in the know.
Rebirth actually sold pretty well. Just not as well as Remake. But… Remake also came out during lockdown when more people were buying games in general.
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
See, I feel like Tifa's importance to the story is being highlighted earlier because otherwise she would be in the backseat of these games for like 7-8 years, that's a lot of time for one of the games two heroines to start shining.
That could be one reason sure, but more emphasis on Tifa already is clearly there so we can get a more natural build up towards the Lifestream event later on.
I feel like some ambiguity was restored, and it has everything to do with Clouds reaction to Aeriths death. It always felt odd to me that Cloud had a more visceral reaction to Aerith dying than his reaction to Tifa "dying" during the nibelheim incident. Seeing as some stuff from fake Cloud carries over to the real Cloud (he still remembers how to fight, and he hasn't forgotten his bonds with other characters, he's not a COMPLETELY different person, I don't see why Aerith would be an exception) it would feel like, after all of Cleriths "non-optional" hand holding and the obvious parallels in Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time, I'll never let you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go", and that Tifa's date definitely isn't the one that "happened" (because then Cloud would actually be a womaniser, fake cloud or not), I don't think Rebirth really did anything to erase ambiguity in this debate, but again, maybe that's just me.
It all just comes down to the simple fact that they needed Aeriths death to hit hard at the player back then, so they made more of a spectacle of her death than Tifas "death", which we already knew that Tifa wasn't really dead to begin with. Also i'd argue Cloud did have a strong reaction to Tifa too, as he was filled with rage and went and killed Sephi.

And yes, Cloud is not literally Zack, i never implied as much. Everything he experiences in his mixed up SOLDIER persona carry over with him.

If you wanna use non-optional here then Cloud and Tifa also had a non-optional almost kiss too in Gongaga, so not sure what your point there is. That's a way stronger implication of anything than someone holding someone's hand for relief. Also we got confirmation just recently that No Promises to Keep is not in fact only about Cloud, but about all the people Aerith loves, and as far as i know, Hollow was never really confirmed to be about Aerith specifically either. Nonetheless the songs aren't some kinda stronger confirmation over what the games itself show and tell us.

All the dates are equally canon also. One is not above the rest at all and they are there to show you how Cloud would interact with each of them in a hypothetical situation at that point in the game.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
because it genuinely made me feel sick to my stomach seeing one of the final battles from the original shoehorned into Rebirth like that. Horrendous
That's too bad, and I'm sorry you feel that way. I love it though. It lets me know that the final battle of the trilogy will 100 percent be something bigger than what we got in the OG.

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it leaves Tifa and Zack as loose ends in a series the devs are probably already sick of continuing. I dont want this to happen, that's why I'm so worried over it.
You were just saying you want them to do this though haha. Your doom and gloom is def confusing
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
I’m pretty sure Nakama is a huge friendship thing too.

Take One Piece for example, Luffy makes a lot of nakama, including his crew. You’d be hard-pressed to argue he only sees these people as colleagues.

Yeah I'm thinking that too but (btw sorry didnt watch one piece :'( I'm outdated with anime ) but my friend told me that the fact that Cloud called her a nakama means it can never move on to something romantic.

Because its like a comrade / brother / sister or close to that but never further. ( again not expert )
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think people kinda gotta stop use the “optional” argument for this game lol.

The funny thing is CT fans can accept the CA date as canon. But not the other way around. It just shows, that once again, in order for CA to work you have to ignore CT content.

CT has no such handicap.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yeah I'm thinking that too but (btw sorry didnt watch one piece :'( I'm outdated with anime ) but my friend told me that the fact that Cloud called her a nakama means it can never move on to something romantic.

Because its like a comrade / brother / sister or close to that but never further. ( again not expert )
I don’t think Nakama essentially means the friendzone. I don’t think think it’s impossible.

I’m sure Cloud sees Tifa as BOTH nakama and someone who he has romantic feelings for. I don’t believe it’s mutually exclusive.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Rebirth actually sold pretty well. Just not as well as Remake. But… Remake also came out during lockdown when more people were buying games in general.
With the amount of time and money spent on these games, even if Rebirth sold "pretty well" it could still discourage bold decisions that drive away fans I guess. But I'd say they are still selling well enough that it hopefully won't affect it TOO much.
You were just saying you want them to do this though haha. Your doom and gloom is def confusing
I see you were misunderstanding me, I was saying that I was worried it was going to end like that, not that I actually wanted it to end like that. Sorry about that.
The funny thing is CT fans can accept the CA date as canon. But not the other way around. It just shows, that once again, in order for CA to work you have to ignore CT content.
This is the fundamental problem with Clerith, you HAVE to "debunk" Cloti for it to work, but not the other way around. It's why the Clerith narrative drags characters down with it and the Cloti narrative doesn't.
If you wanna use non-optional here then Cloud and Tifa also had a non-optional almost kiss too in Gongaga, so not sure what your point there is. That's a way stronger implication of anything than someone holding someone's hand for relief. Also we got confirmation just recently that No Promises to Keep is not in fact only about Cloud, but about all the people Aerith loves, and as far as i know, Hollow was never really confirmed to be about Aerith specifically either. Nonetheless the songs aren't some kinda stronger confirmation over what the games itself show and tell us.

All the dates are equally canon also. One is not above the rest at all and they are there to show you how Cloud would interact with each of them in a hypothetical situation at that point in the game.
I get that, and I agree, basically "the current Cloud Strife would jump at the chance to kiss Tifa." and that makes sense. But if the game shows me Cloud is romantically interested in Aerith, and it can't really be assumed none of those feelings carry over after the real him comes back, paired with the fact I think Cloti moments will be cheapened, are the main reasons I have these worries in the first place.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I don’t think Nakama essentially means the friendzone. I don’t think think it’s impossible.

I’m sure Cloud sees Tifa as BOTH nakama and someone who he has romantic feelings for. I don’t believe it’s mutually exclusive.
it has to, since Square is still hell bent on having Cloud refer to Tifa as nakama in some spinoff, I can't remember which one. It still feels annoying Square won't just rip the band-aid off and refer to Cloud and Tifa as more than just "Childhood friends".
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
That's too bad, and I'm sorry you feel that way. I love it though. It lets me know that the final battle of the trilogy will 100 percent be something bigger than what we got in the OG.
I also like that they are pacing out the Sephi forms this time around instead of just slapping all these different forms of him at the very end.
 

parkdon

Rookie Adventurer
it has to, since Square is still hell bent on having Cloud refer to Tifa as nakama in some spinoff, I can't remember which one. It still feels annoying Square won't just rip the band-aid off and refer to Cloud and Tifa as more than just "Childhood friends".

You're CA
You'd want it to happen, but that's not the case

Cloud and Tifa kissed. The end
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
I think they will because sales for this game obviously weren't as high as they had hoped, they're keeping relatively quiet on it, being even more blatant than they already were in the original would only drive away fans (Cleriths). Plus, I don't feel like Nomura would jump at the chance to remove any and all interpretations from his works, even if they are wrong, he's just like that. He has already in the past been a sort of enemy to Cloti (Meddling in what Nojima wanted portrayed in kingdom hearts, and that infamous "I don't have a clue" quote from him)

ahh dont be confused by their words back then..all relationships are important but not everything is romantic. Nojima wrote the story and this is all confirmed by devs themselves that there ''there will be less interpretations for this one' even back in remake I actually expected the romantic elements of C/A because its part of Aerith's story to be confused.. something I personally wanted to see in 4K too actually ( why is it soo confusing) - they cannot remove the romantic elements permanently instead they highlighted the other one and put nonverbal cues on Cloud's you can see it on his reactions.

I’m sure Cloud sees Tifa as BOTH nakama and someone who he has romantic feelings for. I don’t believe it’s mutually exclusive.

I'm not sure if you notice Cloud didnt like to call TIFA a NAKAMA or FRIEND / Even when Aerith ask " he said its complicated" even in ever crisis when Tifa is asking cloud to join tea parties ( for friends) he's angry and refused to join.

friends.gif
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
ahh dont be confused by their words back then..all relationships are important but not everything is romantic. Nojima wrote the story and this is all confirmed by devs themselves that there ''there will be less interpretations for this one' even back in remake I actually expected the romantic elements of C/A because its part of Aerith's story to be confused.. something I personally wanted to see in 4K too actually ( why is it soo confusing) - they cannot remove the romantic elements permanently instead they highlighted the other one and put nonverbal cues on Cloud's you can see it on his reactions.



I'm not sure if you notice Cloud didnt like to call TIFA a NAKAMA or FRIEND / Even when Aerith ask " he said its complicated" even in ever crisis when Tifa is asking cloud to join tea parties ( for friends) he's angry and refused to join.

View attachment 15365
Yeah. I see what you’re saying.

I’m just saying it’s not mutually exclusive. You can be Nakama and lovers simultaneously.

It’s just in the context of the dream date, Cloud saying Nakama signals to Aerith that he doesn’t see her that way because it doesn’t really work in the context of their date,
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
But if the game shows me Cloud is romantically interested in Aerith
Thing is, i don't believe it ever showed this. I didn't get that vibe at all from any of their moments in the game, not the chapter 12 date, not the "dream date" and none of the bonding dialogue moments throughout the game showed Cloud having that towards her, but i know people have their own intepretations about these things so i can't really prove it with my own words i guess.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
Yeah. I see what you’re saying.

I’m just saying it’s not mutually exclusive. You can be Nakama and lovers simultaneously.

sorry busy I forgot the I AGREE Cloud should just be straight just like barret says and make the first move damned it~ HAHAHAHA
btw have you seen the EVER CRISIS cloti angst?? --> daaamned Cloud is a jerk there.. here is the link but still love him.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Thing is, i don't believe it ever showed this. I didn't get that vibe at all from any of their moments in the game, not the chapter 12 date, not the "dream date" and none of the bonding dialogue moments throughout the game showed Cloud having that towards her, but i know people have their own intepretations about these things so i can't really prove it with my own words i guess.
See, I can't really see Cloud initiating hand holding with Aerith as anything but romantic, like, why else would he do that? To showcase a familial bond? especially not the interlocking fingers later on, that definitely has romantic connotations, especially when we know Cloud harbored some degree of liking for Aerith, atleast while he was acting out his SOLDIER persona.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
See, I can't really see Cloud initiating hand holding with Aerith as anything but romantic, like, why else would he do that? To showcase a familial bond? especially not the interlocking fingers later on, that definitely has romantic connotations, especially when we know Cloud harbored some degree of liking for Aerith, atleast while he was acting out his SOLDIER persona.
Interesting. I actually think it’s pretty ambiguous. I think it does have some romantic connotations but I also think it could just be a show of comfort.

Plus, I definitely think interlocking fingers isn’t proof he somehow loves Aerith more than Tifa. I mean, if it’s between a kiss and interlocking fingers, I’d say the former is WAAAAAY more explicitly romantic.

Plus, I’m in the camp that Cloud might have had romantic feelings for Aerith but his feelings for Tifa are stronger and would ultimately win out in the end if Aerith lived and he had to choose.
 

parkdon

Rookie Adventurer
lad, you did this to someone else aswell, what is your problem? Calm it, I promise I'm one of the most pro-Cloti people out there, it's why I feel worried about it in the first place.

Stop lying

From your writing, I know you're CA
Don't pretend to be CT
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
See, I can't really see Cloud initiating hand holding with Aerith as anything but romantic, like, why else would he do that? To showcase a familial bond? especially not the interlocking fingers later on, that definitely has romantic connotations, especially when we know Cloud harbored some degree of liking for Aerith, atleast while he was acting out his SOLDIER persona.

What happened why did he have to do that when all of his body language says he wanted to be aloof?
Because he opens up Zack's to Aerith ( although she said she's looking at him and wanted to spend more time with him ) - do not forget Cloud remembers Zack here he knows he's Aerith's special person and Zack is his friend a buddy ( whom he thought died in river )

He said this with confidence "But I'm right here.. " - by Cloud saying this with full confidence reminds her again of Zack. He knows she's upset remembering Zack on this romantic moment. He wanted to support her hence he hold her hand (until the rides over)

Just like how she said on Aerith's Farewell letter: “I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It’s cruel."


==============

Not everyone understood when Aerith says "I'm looking for you.. I'm trying hard to see you.." - this is not just because she's looking for the real cloud inside but wanted to see the Cloud passed through the persona he projects. But Aerith cannot unsee it because Zack is an irreplaceable person to her. that's why its HARD


@parkdon lets try to respect each other's opinion here we're in mutual tread.
 
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abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Interesting. I actually think it’s pretty ambiguous. I think it does have some romantic connotations but I also think it could just be a show of comfort.
The way I see it, is if I went on a date with a girl I liked and then interlocked fingers with her for a prolonged period of time, I would 100% go home thinking I made BIG progress with her, since I've never been romantically involved with anyone, same as Cloud.
Stop lying

From your writing, I know you're CA
Don't pretend to be CT
Give it a rest, I don't really know how I can prove to you I'm not a Clerith. Just trust me, I gush about Cloud, Tifa and their relationship, I love them.
What happened why did he have to do that when all of his body language says he wanted to be aloof?
Because he opens up Zack's to Aerith ( although she said she's looking at him and wanted to spend more time with him )

He said this with confidence "But I'm right here.. " - by Cloud saying this with full confidence reminds her again of Zack. He knows she's upset remembering Zack on this romantic moment. He wanted to support her hence he hold her hand (until the rides over)

Just like how she said on Aerith's Farewell letter: “I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It’s cruel."
I was referring to the dream date btw, not the gold saucer one, sorry for any misunderstanding.
 
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