SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

So, does anyone here still think that the remake trilogy will end with Advent children? because I feel like it would be awkward for it to, especially since some stuff like Kyrie were placed into the remakes, it would just make some stuff feel disjointed.

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

So, those are my thoughts. Again, if this is posted in the wrong thread or came off as rude, I'm really sorry.

Hey I’m also new, and thank god I am because I can’t imagine having a debate for nearly 30 years. It looks like I got into this at the right time lol.

I’ll preface my response by saying for me it’s not a matter of shipping, I am just following the narrative provided which is that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship building. I’ve only played the Remakes and watched AC 100 years ago. After Rebirth hooking me and making me obsessed, I’ve read Nojima’s novels and watched certain sections of the OG.

I really have no doubt that things will end with the pairings they have been building which is Cloud and Tifa, and Aerith and Zach.

My opinion kind of hinges on the fact that Tifa’s part in the next game has so many intimate moments I don’t see how it can end ambiguously between them. The Gongaga moment was intimate and that is barely anything compared to the lifestream sequence. One thing I’ve loved about Rebirth is how much emotion everyone expresses, so I just envision this moment, as well as when Tifa first finds him, to be so emotional it will just be Gongaga X 1,000,000. I don’t know how they’d do this moment, and then not have them end up together.

As far as it ending and going directly into Advent Children, I feel like AC will just be another timeline. Advent Children is Cloud dealing with his guilt and his two sins- which are Aerith and Zack. But now we have Aerith already talking to him in the way she did in Advent Children, telling him not to blame himself. I have a pipe dream that we will see something post AC.

 

[abzy1200]

I get what you’re saying. I just don’t really see your reasoning behind the Clerith portion of it.

“Parts 1 and 2 had bad endings. Therefore bad Part 3 ending = Clerith”.

Genuinely not sure how you came to the conclusion that we are either getting a Clerith ending or them favouring Clerith in the third game at all, when the third game is very much gonna be the Cloud and Tifa show for the most part and Rebirth already basically closing up the Clerith chapter for us. They're not gonna backpedal after going this hard for the Cloti and Zerith setups that need payoffs.

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

And then when all the dust settles, AC can tackle the guilty Cloud.

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something. It would feel odd if Aerith and Zack just peaced out without saying a single word to him, especially not after they were fighting alongside him, which, in itself could be seen by Cloud as "They don't hate me for being inadequate, they don't hate me for letting them die, I can forgive myself"

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

 

[Hellenic]

Sure, certain things that have happened now do create some very slight incongruities with AC and TKAA but I think they can still fit in for the most part.

Actually, tbh the only thing I can think of is that Kyrie knows the group, but they have so little interaction in the book that it isn’t that bad.

At the end of the day, having inconsistencies is a given at this point and i think ultimately we just kinda have to ignore the small bits here and there when it comes to the later material, or hope they do some revised versions of their content after the trilogy.

 

[Someonesbunny]

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

It's true that the original triangle being discussed still exists as it did in '97, but the inclusion of Zack is your wild card here.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here. Many ways to ruin a story, and only one of them involves undoing decades of a well-known story element in a flagship game to pursue... what appears to be an element that doesn't even really exist in the current iteration.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

I understand the pessimism, but keep in mind that, in a game with date mechanics where the player chooses who Cloud dates, Cloud only chose to kiss Tifa. This was deliberate, and probably the most telling of decisions by the devs, not even mentioning that they have, in a recent interview, asked everyone to watch all of them. There are many places where inserting Aerith was possible in Rebirth given that many of the moments in the game were new and added dimension, but again they just didn't.

But to humour your hypothetical, let's say that Aerith is shoehorned into the Lifestream sequence: will this destroy Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Can Aerith bring back Cloud without Tifa's memories of him? Are Cloud's memories and affections for Tifa going to be erased? And, possibly most importantly, how is Aerith, who presumably loves Cloud (but is, to date, unproven to do so) to react when she sees that the love that inhabits his mind is a love that is reserved for another?

All that besides, the conclusion of "a sealed up secret wish" is a trigger that has yet to be pulled (but all CT scenes thus far have indicated that they're just itching to pull it).

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

FFX, who had the same devs, had an implied sex scene but it wasn't raunchy, explicit, or, actually, even obvious. You can't tell me that they were "dancing down there where it's wet" and not make me think it was innuendo. It's about execution: Kato wanted to be explicit in FFVII but was denied that level of it, then he proceeded to be explicit with it in Xenogears. Different artistic visions in this case, so maybe it will just take a different form in the coming game.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

Rebirth alone was pretty far from ambiguous so I don't feel like the waters will become murkier as time goes on. It's been a while since I've seen Advent Children, but I don't remember Kyrie being involved at all - only in TKAA. It felt pretty well contained within its own narrative so I'm not sure how this is affected.

Speaking of ambiguity, we also have to remember that the devs deliberately released ToTP and CCR prior to Rebirth and insisted for people to experience that in order to understand everything going on in Rebirth - both of these entries give background to CT and ZA so it would seem terribly out of pocket to just do away with that in favour of a pairing that neither has the narrative links to each other like CT or ZA does, or provide any satisfying conclusion to the non-optional buildup between Cloud and Tifa which has been noted pretty well across the board.

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

Also, welcome!

 

[GamerSkull]

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something. It would feel odd if Aerith and Zack just peaced out without saying a single word to him, especially not after they were fighting alongside him, which, in itself could be seen by Cloud as "They don't hate me for being inadequate, they don't hate me for letting them die, I can forgive myself"

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

I get that you’re pessimistic.

But imo, they’ve done everything pretty well BUT the endings. So I’m not worried.

I actually don’t think they’ll be very ambiguous personally. I think they’ve pretty much telegraphed what they’re gonna do.

If Part 3’s ending is bad, if will be bad separate from the LTD.

 

[GamerSkull]

It's true that the original triangle being discussed still exists as it did in '97, but the inclusion of Zack is your wild card here.



I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here. Many ways to ruin a story, and only one of them involves undoing decades of a well-known story element in a flagship game to pursue... what appears to be an element that doesn't even really exist in the current iteration.



I understand the pessimism, but keep in mind that, in a game with date mechanics where the player chooses who Cloud dates, Cloud only chose to kiss Tifa. This was deliberate, and probably the most telling of decisions by the devs, not even mentioning that they have, in a recent interview, asked everyone to watch all of them. There are many places where inserting Aerith was possible in Rebirth given that many of the moments in the game were new and added dimension, but again they just didn't.

But to humour your hypothetical, let's say that Aerith is shoehorned into the Lifestream sequence: will this destroy Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Can Aerith bring back Cloud without Tifa's memories of him? Are Cloud's memories and affections for Tifa going to be erased? And, possibly most importantly, how is a Aerith, who presumably loves Cloud (but is, to date, unproven to do so) to react when she sees that the love that inhabits his mind is a love that is reserved for another?

All that besides, the conclusion of "a sealed up secret wish" is a trigger that has yet to be pulled (but all CT scenes thus far have indicated that they're just itching to pull it).



FFX, who had the same devs, had an implied sex scene but it wasn't raunchy, explicit, or, actually, even obvious. You can't tell me that they were "dancing down there where it's wet" and not make me think it was innuendo. It's about execution: Kato wanted to be explicit in FFVII but was denied that level of it, then he proceeded to be explicit with it in Xenogears. Different artistic visions in this case, so maybe it will just take a different form in the coming game.



Rebirth alone was pretty far from ambiguous so I don't feel like the waters will become murkier as time goes on. It's been a while since I've seen Advent Children, but I don't remember Kyrie being involved at all - only in TKAA. It felt pretty well contained within its own narrative so I'm not sure how this is affected.

Speaking of ambiguity, we also have to remember that the devs deliberately released ToTP and CCR prior to Rebirth and insisted for people to experience that in order to understand everything going on in Rebirth - both of these entries give background to CT and ZA so it would seem terribly out of pocket to just do away with that in favour of a pairing that neither has the narrative links to each other like CT or ZA does, or provide any satisfying conclusion to the non-optional buildup between Cloud and Tifa which has been noted pretty well across the board.

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.



Also, welcome!

Well, I don’t think Tidus and Yuna had sex myself.

That being said, I don’t think a T-rating means they can’t “imply” a sex scene. I’ve never thought we would see one (and honestly I don’t want to) an implication with a fade to black is all I really need, and that is within the bounds of a T-rating so I agree there.

And truth be told, I just want mutual confirmation of feelings explicitly. That’s all I really want to see from the scene tbh. Sex is more just the icing on the cake. It’s not necessary but I won’t complain if they include it.

 

[Hellenic]

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

If they wanted to cheapen or gut their moments then i don't see why they felt the need to add so much more for them this early on is the thing. They could've just kept Tifa in the background yet again for this part and feed the Cleriths fulltime, yet they instead fed Clotis more than ever, while actually gutting some Clerith content, hell they went as far as gave Tifa a kiss with Cloud, which is a huge move, be it optional or not.

As far as i'm considered, they went out of their way to clear up the ambiquity a whole ton with Rebirth especially, so i don't see any way for them to restore it anymore without it being complete nonsense and a fail at storytelling.

 

[GamerSkull]

If they wanted to cheapen or gut their moments then i don't see why they felt the need to add so much more for them this early on is the thing. They could've just kept Tifa in the background yet again for this part and feed the Cleriths fulltime, yet they instead fed Clotis more than ever, while actually gutting some Clerith content, hell they went as far as gave Tifa a kiss with Cloud, which is a huge move, be it optional or not.

As far as i'm considered, they went out of their way to clear up the ambiquity a whole ton with Rebirth especially, so i don't see any way for them to restore it anymore without it being complete nonsense and a fail at storytelling.

Heck, they even removed Cait’s compatibility fortune for Clerith.

 

[LNK]

It would be awful, it would be a travesty, but the Re;trilogy now has a pattern of having terrible endings, and with things escalating even more than they did in remake in regards to weird timeline/dimension stuff, I can't help but feel like it's going to happen again that we get another bad ending.

What is so terrible about the endings in the first two games? Imo, both were great. Especially Rebirth. Rebirth is now my 2nd favorite FF ending (15 is 1st)

Having Cloud/Aerith be together wouldn't necessarily be a bad ending. It wouldn't make sense from a narrative standpoint, nor would it tie into what comes after

Also, it's kind of weird for someone to WANT a bad ending to the trilogy. You also want her to be in the Lifestream sequence, while also thinking it would cheapen said sequence. Why would you want them to do that?

Sorry, but I'm confused by what you're saying

 

[thetriplerhyme]

it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

If this is possible this should be informed or included in any ultimania.. Lifestream sequence is the real cloud's self issues and his trauma w/c Aerith doesnt have any reference AT ALL ( she's just the cherry on top of all the trauma he encountered since childhood to present ) and again that's only Tifa.

I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here.

Final Fantasy VII is not a multi-optional game with multiple ending.. all the options is Cloud's reaction to different characters and devs just wanted to show that it may have a different options but we're still the same ending..

like in Aerith's last date whether you go LA or HA she's still gonna say " there's different kind of like and liking.. " and " at least i know now how you and I stand" -- friends? i dont think there's anymore ambiguity there.

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity.

- can you provide basis?? from Remake to Rebirth nothing has been cheapened or gutten in Cloti moments on opposite site it was highlighted. But the story is different now because people are aware of Tifa's connection to Cloud soo there's noo need to put her into too much dark unlike OG.

Heck, they even removed Cait’s compatibility fortune for Clerith.

- yes because that's stupid already instead they put the scene of C/A on that beach --> Look forward to the future me --> omnimous warning you know there's not gonna be a future AERITH Cloud's going to see.

the Cait’s compatibility fortune back in OG is to give 'hope' to players that ahhh there's future for this two.. only for SE to break it in players face by Aerith dying. This is an omnimous warning back in OG that its a obvious lie

It would be awful, it would be a travesty, but the Re;trilogy now has a pattern of having terrible endings, and with things escalating even more than they did in remake in regards to weird timeline/dimension stuff, I can't help but feel like it's going to happen again that we get another bad ending.

I dont get it what's wrong with ending or remake and rebirth? Although yeah it weird but Aerith accepted her death unlike sephiroth who is defying it.

Actually there's a theory I recently got from Max that's soo good. -->> Here you can see it

- Its a theory no one confirms it but its not soo bad - devs cannot give the same impact on Aerith death to players people knows it already so instead they gave the impact on 'hope that she can be saved.." only for devs to take it away.

 

[GamerSkull]

What is so terrible about the endings in the first two games? Imo, both were great. Especially Rebirth. Rebirth is now my 2nd favorite FF ending (15 is 1st)

Having Cloud/Aerith be together wouldn't necessarily be a bad ending. It wouldn't make sense from a narrative standpoint, nor would it tie into what comes after

Also, it's kind of weird for someone to WANT a bad ending to the trilogy. You also want her to be in the Lifestream sequence, while also thinking it would cheapen said sequence. Why would you want them to do that?

Sorry, but I'm confused by what you're saying

Tbh, I found them to be a bit much. I’m mostly lukewarm to them but I don’t outright hate them. I still think they were unecessary.

But I enjoyed the other 90% of the game to have an overall positive experience and I’d even go as far as to say I like the game in general.

But yeah, not a fan personally just cuz it’s a bit convoluted and it kinda takes away from the death scene. However, I can see why some may like it… some of my friends even do. And I respect that.

 

[abzy1200]

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.

Tell me about it, same thing here.

If they wanted to cheapen or gut their moments then i don't see why they felt the need to add so much more for them this early on is the thing. They could've just kept Tifa in the background yet again for this part and feed the Cleriths fulltime, yet they instead fed Clotis more than ever, while actually gutting some Clerith content, hell they went as far as gave Tifa a kiss with Cloud, which is a huge move, be it optional or not.

See, I feel like Tifa's importance to the story is being highlighted earlier because otherwise she would be in the backseat of these games for like 7-8 years, that's a lot of time for one of the games two heroines to start shining.

As far as i'm considered, they went out of their way to clear up the ambiquity a whole ton with Rebirth especially, so i don't see any way for them to restore it anymore without it being complete nonsense and a fail at storytelling.

I feel like some ambiguity was restored, and it has everything to do with Clouds reaction to Aeriths death. It always felt odd to me that Cloud had a more visceral reaction to Aerith dying than his reaction to Tifa "dying" during the nibelheim incident. Seeing as some stuff from fake Cloud carries over to the real Cloud (he still remembers how to fight, and he hasn't forgotten his bonds with other characters, he's not a COMPLETELY different person, I don't see why Aerith would be an exception) it would feel like, after all of Cleriths "non-optional" hand holding and the obvious parallels in Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time, I'll never let you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go", and that Tifa's date definitely isn't the one that "happened" (because then Cloud would actually be a womaniser, fake cloud or not), I don't think Rebirth really did anything to erase ambiguity in this debate, but again, maybe that's just me.

What is so terrible about the endings in the first two games? Imo, both were great. Especially Rebirth. Rebirth is now my 2nd favorite FF ending (15 is 1st)

because it genuinely made me feel sick to my stomach seeing one of the final battles from the original shoehorned into Rebirth like that. Horrendous.

Having Cloud/Aerith be together wouldn't necessarily be a bad ending

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it leaves Tifa and Zack as loose ends in a series the devs are probably already sick of continuing. I dont want this to happen, that's why I'm so worried over it.

Again, sorry for dooming, I just can't help myself

 

[GamerSkull]

Tell me about it, same thing here.

See, I feel like Tifa's importance to the story is being highlighted earlier because otherwise she would be in the backseat of these games for like 7-8 years, that's a lot of time for one of the games two heroines to start shining.

I feel like some ambiguity was restored, and it has everything to do with Clouds reaction to Aeriths death. It always felt odd to me that Cloud had a more visceral reaction to Aerith dying than his reaction to Tifa "dying" during the nibelheim incident. Seeing as some stuff from fake Cloud carries over to the real Cloud (he still remembers how to fight, and he hasn't forgotten his bonds with other characters, he's not a COMPLETELY different person, I don't see why Aerith would be an exception) it would feel like, after all of Cleriths "non-optional" hand holding and the obvious parallels in Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time, I'll never let you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go", and that Tifa's date definitely isn't the one that "happened" (because then Cloud would actually be a womaniser, fake cloud or not), I don't think Rebirth really did anything to erase ambiguity in this debate, but again, maybe that's just me.

because it genuinely made me feel sick to my stomach seeing one of the final battles from the original shoehorned into Rebirth like that. Horrendous.

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it leaves Tifa and Zack as loose ends in a series the devs are probably already sick of continuing. I dont want this to happen, that's why I'm so worried over it.

Again, sorry for dooming, I just can't help myself

You could be right about the dooming, yeah.

But I still believe that if the devs fuck up, they’ll fuck up trying to pay off what’s been set up. They won’t just randomly switch gears and have different payoffs. They’ll do bad with what they’re currently trying to do.

Personally, I have no problem with Bizarro Sephiroth showing up, it’s everything else that I found to be an issue.

Like I said earlier, I think if the ending is bad… it’s not gonna have anything to do with the LTD. It’ll just be bad… but with Cloti endgame because that’s how the original ended.

 

[abzy1200]

Like I said earlier, I think if the ending is bad… it’s not gonna have anything to do with the LTD. It’ll just be bad… but with Cloti endgame because that’s how the original ended.

Let's hope for that atleast.

Also, let me say thank you to everyone here, this is a much more friendly space than other places I've had these discussions, thank you all for making me feel welcome here.

 

[cgnVirtue]

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something. It would feel odd if Aerith and Zack just peaced out without saying a single word to him, especially not after they were fighting alongside him, which, in itself could be seen by Cloud as "They don't hate me for being inadequate, they don't hate me for letting them die, I can forgive myself"

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

I can understand your pessimism. I’ve gotten burned by so many games before, and Square Enix isn’t an exception when it comes to controversial or polarizing decisions. Maybe I’m being naive, but I genuine don’t believe that FFVII is going to drop the ball, at least not as hard as to literally negate the plot seeds they’ve planted. So much work is going into this trilogy and it’s essentially Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima’s (am I missing anyone?) magnum opus. If they’re going to nail anything in their career, it has to be this. FFVII may mean a lot to us as fans, but these are characters that literally represent a part of them and they must love them way more than any fan ever could.
Again, I get it. I got burned so hard by Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth’s ending that I literally dropped the franchise completely lmao. But with how much love and care is being put into this ReTrilogy, I would be surprised if they mess it up that bad. As far as I know you don’t see the kind of meticulous care they’re putting into the ReTrilogy in anything right now, at least in the West.
Besides, Nojima’s gotten harrassed and he’s STILL talking about his writing and what he intended despite it all. If he or anyone else was scared and wanted to do ambiguity, that’s what we would have gotten. But Tifa got the kiss in Rebirth. And they’re not stopping there.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I feel like some ambiguity was restored, and it has everything to do with Clouds reaction to Aeriths death. It always felt odd to me that Cloud had a more visceral reaction to Aerith dying than his reaction to Tifa "dying" during the nibelheim incident. Seeing as some stuff from fake Cloud carries over to the real Cloud (he still remembers how to fight, and he hasn't forgotten his bonds with other characters, he's not a COMPLETELY different person, I don't see why Aerith would be an exception)

as i said on my previous post Aerith's is like the cherry on top of all the trauma he encountered since Nibelheim incident -- rooting from since he is a child, Zack's death.. DENIAL

This is supposed to be his stronger self and until then he's still helpless to protect his friends this traumatize him soo bad it distorted reality. In OG after redeeming himself he's able to make a resolution.

" I’m…Cloud. The master of my own illusionary world. But I can’t remain trapped in an illusion any more. I’m going to live my life without pretending."

Its an illusion he still created because he refuses to see death of Zack and Aerith.

 

[abzy1200]

as i said on my previous post Aerith's is like the cherry on top of all the trauma he encountered since Nibelheim incident -- rooting from since he is a child, Zack's death.. DENIAL

This is supposed to be his stronger self and until then he's still helpless to protect his friends this traumatize him soo bad it distorted reality. In OG after redeeming himself he's able to make a resolution.

" I’m…Cloud. The master of my own illusionary world. But I can’t remain trapped in an illusion any more. I’m going to live my life without pretending."

Its an illusion he still created because he refuses to see death of Zack and Aerith.

Listen, I understand what you're saying, and I agree aswell, Cloud being upset like that is a culmination of Sephiroths constant torturing. But it just feels so odd that Cloud saw supposedly the love of his life dead and all he could conjure was caressing her face and moving her out of the way. It just never felt right to me, and while the argument could be made that it gave Cloud the strength to best Sephiroth, you also have to take into account that Sephiroth also just burned down his hometown, mother included, and Cloud feels betrayed by the person he saw as a role model, there was more to his rage than just Tifa.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Not only that it would just feel fucking disgusting to watch Tifa take care of Danzel and Marelene knowing Cloud is in love with another woman the whole time.

Unfortunately there are people who have actually believed this to be the story of AC for nearly two decades now, and it doesn’t help that AC isn’t exactly the best display of quality storytelling

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

A “Clerith” ending would require Cloud picking Tifa over Aerith, which so far has never been an option even if you completely ignore Tifa.

Which reminds me, I remember it being argued that Cloud’s feelings for Tifa were “fleeting” based on a translation of an Ultimania or something. Hard to imagine the word “fleeting” being appropriate to describe Cloud crushing on Tifa for a significant portion of his childhood, but okay I guess?

 

[GamerSkull]

Listen, I understand what you're saying, and I agree aswell, Cloud being upset like that is a culmination of Sephiroths constant torturing. But it just feels so odd that Cloud saw supposedly the love of his life dead and all he could conjure was caressing her face and moving her out of the way. It just never felt right to me, and while the argument could be made that it gave Cloud the strength to best Sephiroth, you also have to take into account that Sephiroth also just burned down his hometown, mother included, and Cloud feels betrayed by the person he saw as a role model, there was more to his rage than just Tifa.

Are you referring to the Nibelheim reactor? Because he literally stabbed Sephiroth in the back with a big sword. Then his first priority after that was checking on Tifa. I don’t really see what else he was supposed to do. He literally was checking on her and then, had to stop because Sephiroth walked in.

And then his emotions were so great, he tanked Sephiroth stabbing him and threw him into the reactor.

I actually don’t find anything wrong with this scene. What else did you want him to do with Tifa there?

He may have done more to help Tifa had Sephiroth not walked into the room.

 

[abzy1200]

Unfortunately there are people who have actually believed this to be the story of AC for nearly two decades now, and it doesn’t help that AC isn’t exactly the best display of quality storytelling

Still can't believe people would rather characterize Cloud as that kind of abusive villain than admit Cloud and Tifa get their happily ever after together.

A “Clerith” ending would require Cloud picking Tifa over Aerith, which so far has never been an option even if you completely ignore Tifa.

Exactly, here's hoping the Re;trilogy doesn't literally lose the plot.

What else did you want him to do with Tifa there

Nothing really, I can't and won't deny that Cloud seeing Tifa hurt like that fueled that rage he was already feeling. But, like I said, it just felt odd to me. But now that I really think about it, yeah, him being "more upset" at Aeriths death isn't really indicative of much since there's a whole backlog of psychological damage behind it that wasn't there for Tifa. I feel better now, thanks.

 

[GamerSkull]

Still can't believe people would rather characterize Cloud as that kind of abusive villain than admit Cloud and Tifa get their happily ever after together.

Exactly, here's hoping the Re;trilogy doesn't literally lose the plot.

Nothing really, I can't and won't deny that Cloud seeing Tifa hurt like that fueled that rage he was already feeling. But, like I said, it just felt odd to me. But now that I really think about it, yeah, him being "more upset" at Aeriths death isn't really indicative of much since there's a whole backlog of psychological damage behind it that wasn't there for Tifa. I feel better now, thanks.

I mean, Aerith was pretty special to him too, romantic or otherwise. That, and Jenova being at play does make it believable to me.

I don’t think it’s a case of him “being more upset” with Aerith. It’s just another situation with different factors at play.

But yes, Cloud has a lot of psychological issues.

 

[LNK]

Tbh, I found them to be a bit much. I’m mostly lukewarm to them but I don’t outright hate them. I still think they were unecessary.

To me, they're a bit much as well. I really wish we wouldn't be fighting Sephiroth every single time. For Rebirth, I'd have preferred a battle with Cloud, but I still like them for what they are. Especially Rebirth. Having Cloud acting like nothing is different while everyone else is visibly heartbroken is great. I love it.

But I enjoyed the other 90% of the game to have an overall positive experience and I’d even go as far as to say I like the game in general. But yeah, not a fan personally just cuz it’s a bit convoluted and it kinda takes away from the death scene. However, I can see why some may like it… some of my friends even do. And I respect that.

I'm on the fence about it being convoluted. Sure it is a little confusing, but it's obviously intentional for a reason, that we'll more than likely see in the third game. But, it's definitely not confusing in a way that you can't see what's going on for the most part. If we don't get the full death sequence in the 3rd game, then I will definitely agree with you though. There needs to be that payoff

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Listen, I understand what you're saying, and I agree aswell, Cloud being upset like that is a culmination of Sephiroths constant torturing. But it just feels so odd that Cloud saw supposedly the love of his life dead and all he could conjure was caressing her face and moving her out of the way. It just never felt right to me, and while the argument could be made that it gave Cloud the strength to best Sephiroth, you also have to take into account that Sephiroth also just burned down his hometown, mother included, and Cloud feels betrayed by the person he saw as a role model, there was more to his rage than just Tifa.

- It was also in ultimania that seeing town burn , mothers death and includes Tifa getting hurt ( i guess in rebirth we know he thought she died ) brings out an enoumous strength in him ( I just dont have the copy right now) -- this is also same in ACC when Sephiroth threatens his family again ( with Tifa included)

"Tell me what you cherished most.. give me the pleasure of taking it away"
Sephiroth now knew never to threaten his family ( included Tifa w/c because this is where Cloud's strength is.. his family and friends

 

[GamerSkull]

To me, they're a bit much as well. I really wish we wouldn't be fighting Sephiroth every single time. For Rebirth, I'd have preferred a battle with Cloud, but I still like them for what they are. Especially Rebirth. Having Cloud acting like nothing is different while everyone else is visibly heartbroken is great. I love it.

I'm on the fence about it being convoluted. Sure it is a little confusing, but it's obviously intentional for a reason, that we'll more than likely see in the third game. But, it's definitely not confusing in a way that you can't see what's going on for the most part. If we don't get the full death sequence in the 3rd game, then I will definitely agree with you though. There needs to be that payoff

I like the concept of this “denial” by Cloud. We’ll see where it goes.

 

[GamerSkull]

Unfortunately there are people who have actually believed this to be the story of AC for nearly two decades now, and it doesn’t help that AC isn’t exactly the best display of quality storytelling

One fundamental issue I take is that FF7 is about loss, moving on but cherishing the time you spent with those you loved. And that they will always exist so long as you remember them.

So, for there to be an interpretation where Cloud never moves on and is incapable of doing so…. Well, it just doesn’t line up with the central idea of FF7 to begin with.

It doubly worse that it’s almost painted as a good thing by these fans.

Does that make sense?