Usually the primary argument I see people using, is that it's just fanservice, that Cloud and Tifas' date is the only one that isn't reflective of Clouds relationship with said character.
and that even if Cloud and Tifa had sex, that it isn't necessarily romantic. (still can't believe this one)
But like you've said, imagine the uproar from their side if these elements of the LTD were on their side. I saw a ton of people theorizing about how Cloud and Aeriths first kiss was going to go, nothing on interlocked fingers. But suddenly that's all they've ever wanted since that's more romantic.
"What are you talking about, those don't exist, they're confirming feelings of mutual friendship and support, that's why Square Enix felt the need to include it on the page titled "For the one I love".
and also why Cloud claimed straight after the events of ff7, that now he had Tifa with him in a way that he didn't before, because they're just such close friends, such close friends that the main scenario writer for the compilation claims they belong together, isn't that so nice?
and also why they decided to foster and adopt a child, they're just such selfless roommates!
I mean, the writing's on the wall, Cloud abandoned Tifa in favour of Aerith, it had nothing to do with him relapsing and facing a terminal illness when his biggest fear is failing people, and forget Zack, he played no role in Clouds' emotions during advent children, it was all him yearning for Aerith."
Some of the stuff you see online these days.........
It's honestly not that different from how it was over a decade ago.
I was always under the impression that Cloud revealing that his motivation to keep going and to strive to be a hero for Tifa was part of the plot-twist. It would have been pretty lame plot twist if you were able to see it coming from a mile away.
It is part of the twist, but all good twists have hints ahead of time.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions and or confirmation bias happening in regards to the ultimania.
I think the quote is from Nojima who said that some paths you can take are outside the narrative (or something along those lines).
Cleriths instantly see this and go "Look! They said not every option is valid to the story! Cloti kiss is fanservice!"
and they would be right, had they not approached the topic in such bad faith.
Obviously, Cloud and Tifa aren't supposed to know they love each other yet, that's supposed to be a payoff in part 3 for their struggles together. They are only supposed to be aware of each others' feelings after the Lifestream sequence/Highwind scene.
On that same note, that's the reason why I will never attempt to argue that Tifas' High affection date at the gold saucer was the one that "happened", because honestly, I don't want it to have been, I think that it should be saved for part 3 because it's much more special and meaningful there than while Cloud is still mentally unstable and lying to himself.
The Cloti kiss being "fanservice" wasn't done out of pity for Clotis, it's there to display that Cloud loves Tifa and vice versa, aka a huge hint to where this story is going.
Bit of a long post, so sorry about that.
It's not fanservice so much as foreshadowing the actual unavoidable payoffs in the Lifestream and Highwind etc.
No no, no one ever kisses in Japan, that's why my favorite Romance manga doesn't have a kiss between the main character and the girl in chapter freaking 1.....oh wait, it does.
View attachment 15724
Ironically, it's with the new cute manic pink girl that he just met even though he's in love with his "childhood best friend" XD
What's that one called?
This is why I hate it when people undermine the romantic aspect or somehow dismiss me when I say that I would no longer be a fan of FFVII if Clerith became canon. They act like that is simply a petty thing.
But it is correct to say that your love of a story depends on the quality of the story and isn't blind, and its a simple fact that depending on who Cloud loves, you are looking at a COMPLETELY different story. And yes, that can totally and reasonably be said to be the tipping point between the themes and motivations creating an amazing one, or snowballing into an absolutely awful one.
To me the difference between Cloti and Clerith really is the difference between a 11/11, one of the best stories and romances ever told. And a 2/10 poorly written mess that makes even most fan-fics look amazing by comparison.
To make Clerith endgame and have FF7 still work requires a massive rewrite of the entire game, to the point where Aerith has to not die and someone else dies. At that point though you're throwing out so much of FF7 you might as well start again with an entirely new gruff soldier type and a spunky energetic girl who enters his life and sweeps him off his- oh, wait, they did that. It's called Final Fantasy 8. Clerith just want FF8 but with Rinoa in pink with a bow.
I see it as an equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome sort of thing. We can create a space where all sides are equally encouraged to share their ideas, but the entire point is that a fair equal PRODUCTIVE discussion is likely to lead to an outcome. That has happened here, there was a fair discussion and as a result Cloti was pretty consistently "winning" the arguments until there was mostly a consensus, and now when a new person comes in they're likely to produce arguments that have already been heard and addressed, and they are then quickly "corrected" as it were.
But that's how it should be, we can't guarantee an equality of outcome without forcefully limiting peoples ability to discus the LTD, which is exactly the thing we're trying to rise above. And yes, that makes it less enticing for Cleriths to come here, skewing it even further, but lets call a spade a spade, if you're unwilling to come here because you do not think your arguments can stand up to the challenge, then that's a you problem. The reason this place is an "echo chamber" is because apparently Cleriths aren't intellectually honest enough to visit a place where their ideas are judged on their merits. This place still doesn't shout people down, it's not that here you'll just run into a host of Clotis shouting nonsense to drown out your arguments in mutually reinforcing noise. No, what you get is merely the sort of arguments you would get if you left your own echo chamber. There are many Clotis here, but all their arguments will be respectful and on point similar to if you were to discuss with one of them one on one. It is essentially just the ultimate test of your viewpoint.
I want to hone my viewpoint even against other people who nominally agree with me, so that we may through debate, perform synthesis and form an even stronger, well reasoned viewpoint and argument.
If a "cloti" is factually incorrect about something, I will call it out. No one gets special treatment.
Imagine if you believe this lore almost 27 years then all compilation goes against you and still you believe otherwise ~ seeing it in 4K is different ballgame they will believe otherwise its easy to know if their winging it ~
They're easily triggered when an article goes against them like Aerith dying or ZA reunion or Cloti moments
Imagine believing "It doesnt matter if Aerith has to make moves all the time Cloud will receiprocate them anyway "
- this is why nojima said it will burden Aerith more if they got together because SHE HAVE TO MAKE MOVE ALL THE TIME.. just like in rebirth
the vibes of Aerith and her energy can only be paired by Zack himself the true person whom gave her all these hopes anywayz
Having watched NPTK so many times now, it's amazing how much people want to deny that it's about Zack at all, because there's so much in the wording and imagery that is explicitly about her and Zack's relationship.
DEFINITELY~ NOO CHANGING TRACKS i KNOW SE IS PLANNING SOMETHING BIG IN PART 3 FOR CLOTI
Hard to imagine how they could make thinger bigger. More explicit, perhaps.
edit:
@Ryushikaze btw that's kimi to doke OMG
Kimi ni Todoke, yes. I thought it had an amusing symmetry with the LTD, including how Sawako winds up best friends with her love rival in the end. It's also got some good examples for relationship tropes we also see played out in 7 and Retrilogy.
@Ryu: I know a phone could handle it, screen real estate and fat fingering of everything are the main obstacles. Which sucks, I never did fix your ninja scarf properly.
No worries, man.
Yeah this is what i was getting at earlier. There just wasn't a proper buildup in OG towards it, so people who were already fully invested in Clerith got whiplashed and just weren't cool with the shift.
I very much would rather get the buildup we are getting now with the remake games, over it being some kinda surprise twist with no proper build up. It's gonna feel so much more rewarding this time.
I think there was a buildup, it was just far subtler than the buildup we've been getting with the more decompressed narrration of the Retrilogy.
Having watched NPTK so many times now, I think it makes the most narrative sense for Aerith not to be Rosa during the play - setting aside the skywheel ride for now - both because it allows her getting on stage to sing to be a complete shock, her being on digital stage for the song and then also the sung finale actually feels like it... detracts from the song? And the song is unquestionably hers? But also it makes sense for her to be supported by as many of her friends as possible and that means either Tifa or Yuffie being up there with her. The staging also makes the most sense with a second person on Cloud's side, as the camera framing is literally uneven without someone else there, and Cloud also bows and presents someone else, even if Aerith was Rosa.
Does that make sense to other people? You want as many people with Aerith as possible for her big moment and her big moment is the song not the play, E.G. one of her friends and not her plays Rosa.
I still may just pick it back up someday, it was an enjoyable little hobby and having my edits in so many sigs was a proud thing for me. Yours was just quite challenging for a relative beginner, which of course was instructive. I contend that the Sentai lineup I came up with for the team was gold, even if the ridiculous Shinobi scarf you requested still looked like it was made from Lego bricks.
But in seriousness, I was making visible progress with my shading way back. Limitations can in fact feel freeing when practicing this sort of thing, they help you reign yourself in a bit. 