SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

"The LTD -- A wild Zack appeared!"? XD

 

[Ryushikaze]

Does anyone else find the name of this thread grating? Like people who post here must see it again and again and again, with the line about Coke and new Coke imprinting in your minds forever. Hell it might even be helping the marketing for Coke in general with the amount of attention and posts here.

It's like new coke except...no it's exactly like new coke but it's old coke except it's nothing like old coke and it's like new coke except arggghh!

I mean, it was an attempt at being funny and helping split out the argumentation between OG only, OG and Compilation Only, Remake only, and All in channels. Given the age of the thread we probably could do with a new thread and a lock.

If I still had mod/ admin powers I might do that. I might also move some of the archived LTD threads back into this subforum to make them easier to search.

None were from anyone in this thread, just some of the outlandish tweets and youtube comments people posted earlier.

And let's be real, it's cope. If Aerith got an optional kiss and Tifa didn't, then they most certainly would lord it over the Cloti fandom.

Also, thanks... I do plan to stay. I just took off because I wanted a much needed detox from the LTD.

EDIT: Grammar

Which was your 'favorite' of the takes you saw?

People are weird or they need some reason to clown on the character. Zack is just a good person, and therefore he’ll do the right thing regardless of his own happiness. For example, he could have abandoned Cloud after Nibelheim. He most assuredly would be alive and reunited with Aerith if that were the case… but he didn’t because that’s not who he is.

It's that they need to tear him down because he gets in the way of their ship. They do the same to Tifa too. It's hilarious when they do the same to Cloud in the name of their ship as well.

Also, a cuck is someone who gets off on their partner having relationships with others or they are people who have been cheated on, neither of which actually apply here as Zack isn’t not particularly happy with the idea that Aerith might have feelings for Cloud. Moreover, Aerith and Cloud haven’t kissed or had sex, they’ve only talked (and the dialogue indicates that neither are exactly sure about their feelings) so he hasn’t exactly been cheated on either.

It’s just another method to downplay Zack’s importance to Aerith.

So, even in the situation where Cloud and Aerith had done something it wouldn't be cuckoldry because Zack was dead. It would be weird and fucked up for them to have done anything so soon after meeting especially when it's obvious Aerith isn't over Zack, but it would not, technically, be cuckoldry.

Thread pedant, at your service.

"But he's meeeeaaaan! Zack wanted to become mercenaries with his comatose buddy!" (Actual takes I've seen, lol.)

Which makes me wonder if these people have never played any other Japanese RPG. "Mercenaries" and "rangers" in JRPGs mean "jack-of-all-trades". Which includes killing monsters around the neighbourhood, fixing houses, finding pets and things, doing laundry, picking and selling flowers etc. Which is, unsurprisingly, what Cloud does in Re-trilogy. And not, like, a literal sellsword.

Hence why I increasingly keep asking if they even like FF7 or if they like the FF7 they made up in their heads, lol.

Mercenary is definitely one of those words or phrases, like "Bounty Hunter" that means something entirely other than its literal english meaning in Japanese media. This is not to say the concept doesn't exist, but if they use the english word as opposed to the Japanese one, you expect something entirely different.
Like "ranger" is almost indelibly associated with clean cut heroic types as opposed to forest management, thanks to Super Sentai.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Mercenary is definitely one of those words or phrases, like "Bounty Hunter" that means something entirely other than its literal english meaning in Japanese media. This is not to say the concept doesn't exist, but if they use the english word as opposed to the Japanese one, you expect something entirely different.
Like "ranger" is almost indelibly associated with clean cut heroic types as opposed to forest management, thanks to Super Sentai.

The only Japanese game series I've seen so far where mercenaries were, well, mercenaries was Fire Emblem. And even in FE, it was more of a job class and an indication that the character is recruitable. And that they usually liked fighting to hone their sword skills, lol.

Otherwise, the words are just cool-sounding titles for "does odd jobs and occasionally kills monsters". Which is pretty much what every RPG protagonist does, whether Western or Japanese.

But if people are going to hate Zack, they might as well hate the actual character instead of the character they made up in their heads, you know? XD

 

[pxl_pushr]

The only Japanese game series I've seen so far where mercenaries were, well, mercenaries was Fire Emblem. And even in FE, it was more of a job class and an indication that the character is recruitable. And that they usually liked fighting to hone their sword skills, lol.

Otherwise, the words are just cool-sounding titles for "does odd jobs and occasionally kills monsters". Which is pretty much what every RPG protagonist does, whether Western or Japanese.

But if people are going to hate Zack, they might as well hate the actual character instead of the character they made up in their heads, you know? XD

FF Tactics also comes to mind. Main character is technically a mercenary before he decides to do things beyond just money ( but he really wasn’t profit driven to begin with so… )

Speaking of which, I wonder if Remake Part 3 will wink at Cloud’s cameo in Tactics at all. Maybe in what he’s mumbling in Mideel or something.

The whole “Cloud is jealous in his GS Date with Tifa” saga has been interesting, and by interesting I mean comedic. All the dates are well crafted and in good faith.

 

[GamerSkull]

Which was your 'favorite' of the takes you saw?

I’m particularly fond of that Twitter screenshot from back in 2021, claiming that when Cloud kisses Aerith, CT fans will deny it by saying he was just doing it out of jealousy.

The irony is too juicy. It’s almost poetic in a sense.

Also, I agree with you regarding Zack’s status as a “cuck”. None of the scenarios really apply. It really just feels like a cheap shot insult so they can further denigrate the character.

The only Japanese game series I've seen so far where mercenaries were, well, mercenaries was Fire Emblem. And even in FE, it was more of a job class and an indication that the character is recruitable. And that they usually liked fighting to hone their sword skills, lol.

Otherwise, the words are just cool-sounding titles for "does odd jobs and occasionally kills monsters". Which is pretty much what every RPG protagonist does, whether Western or Japanese.

But if people are going to hate Zack, they might as well hate the actual character instead of the character they made up in their heads, you know? XD

The only example of mercenaries I can think of in Japanese media that is close to what “mercenary” actually means is the Band of the Hawk/Falcon in Berserk. I’m sure there are more but I can’t think of any right now.

But yes, mercenary is just a cooler way of saying Adventurer. Just someone who completes quests for money.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The only Japanese game series I've seen so far where mercenaries were, well, mercenaries was Fire Emblem. And even in FE, it was more of a job class and an indication that the character is recruitable. And that they usually liked fighting to hone their sword skills, lol.

Otherwise, the words are just cool-sounding titles for "does odd jobs and occasionally kills monsters". Which is pretty much what every RPG protagonist does, whether Western or Japanese.

But if people are going to hate Zack, they might as well hate the actual character instead of the character they made up in their heads, you know? XD

FE actually has several notable Mercenary companies in its cast (The nation of Ilia, Gerrik, Greil, and Jeralt companies) in addition to the "mercenary" job class, though again I am not sure if the JP script uses the word "mercenary" or if it uses a JP word that means the same as mercenary. It's also rare in that it is very realistic about what Mercenaries actually do and how their lives often went.

FF Tactics also comes to mind. Main character is technically a mercenary before he decides to do things beyond just money ( but he really wasn’t profit driven to begin with so… )

I'd have to look up if he's called that or sell-sword.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Remake Part 3 will wink at Cloud’s cameo in Tactics at all. Maybe in what he’s mumbling in Mideel or something.

It's possible. I mean he commented about Xenogears the first time around.

The whole “Cloud is jealous in his GS Date with Tifa” saga has been interesting, and by interesting I mean comedic. All the dates are well crafted and in good faith.

Yes, and that's the problem, as far as the Clerith side is concerned. Given an even playing field, they lose, hence the need to kneecap the opposition with "optional!" "Jealousy" "Fanservice" etc.

I’m particularly fond of that Twitter screenshot from back in 2021, claiming that when Cloud kisses Aerith, CT fans will deny it by saying he was just doing it out of jealousy.

The irony is too juicy. It’s almost poetic in a sense.

Oh that one was so hilarious. Every accusation a confession, and all.

Also, I agree with you regarding Zack’s status as a “cuck”. None of the scenarios really apply. It really just feels like a cheap shot insult so they can further denigrate the character.

Yep!

The only example of mercenaries I can think of in Japanese media that is close to what “mercenary” actually means is the Band of the Hawk/Falcon in Berserk. I’m sure there are more but I can’t think of any right now.

But yes, mercenary is just a cooler way of saying Adventurer. Just someone who completes quests for money.

It's not the idea of them doesn't exist, it's everywhere, it's about the use of specific words to denote it as opposed to another idea with a different- usually foreign- word. A really good example of this is how 'Cowboy' got used in place of 'Bounty Hunter' in Cowboy Bebop.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes, and that's the problem, as far as the Clerith side is concerned. Given an even playing field, they lose, hence the need to kneecap the opposition with "optional!" "Jealousy" "Fanservice" etc.

While I kept up with the series itself, I wasn't really involved in the Naruto fandom but I'd imagine Hinata probably got similar treatment from NaruSaku fans. "Hinata isn't even the heroine" and such...

This seems like a trend when it comes to series with big shipping fandoms. People tend to have this impression that things will go a certain way from the beginning that they are unwilling to accept when new evidence presents itself to contradict that. They become so invested in that initial impression that they are unwilling to accept anything else.

 

[Ryushikaze]

While I kept up with the series itself, I wasn't really involved in the Naruto fandom but I'd imagine Hinata probably got similar treatment from NaruSaku fans. "Hinata isn't even the heroine" and such...

This seems like a trend when it comes to series with big shipping fandoms. People tend to have this impression that things will go a certain way from the beginning that they are unwilling to accept when new evidence presents itself to contradict that. They become so invested in that initial impression that they are unwilling to accept anything else.

It definitely went that way with Bleach, and we have a record of the meltdown from around the series conclusion.

 

[Eerie]

Fun times with Yama playing all the dates: x.com and a translation of what he said about the CT dates.

Cloud and Tifa were made walking side by side in the theater, as many noticed, and of course it was intentional. He also does elevate the Tifa date above the others, although he said no matter what all dates connect seemlessly in the main story. Anyway he was very talkative so you can read the post!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Fun times with Yama playing all the dates: x.com and a translation of what he said about the CT dates.

Cloud and Tifa were made walking side by side in the theater, as many noticed, and of course it was intentional. He also does elevate the Tifa date above the others, although he said no matter what all dates connect seemlessly in the main story. Anyway he was very talkative so you can read the post!

Specifically, he divided things into "Tifa's date" and "Not Tifa's date" branches, and that everything makes sense no matter who you get on the date, but Cloud and Tifa's glances will be better understood if you get her date.

 

[GamerSkull]

Make no mistake, people.

Even if Part 3 is definitively Cloti, the next cope will almost certainly be a romantic reunion in the Lifestream.

 

[Eerie]

Make no mistake, people.

Even if Part 3 is definitively Cloti, the next cope will almost certainly be a romantic reunion in the Lifestream.

I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.

I agree that we need a Z/A kiss as well, but I don't think it's going to truly get rid of the real crazy shippers. Like, there will be copes and conspiracy theories galore. I'd wager we'll even get some "well the REAL Cloud and Aerith who totally exist!" types emerge.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.

I agree that we need a Z/A kiss as well, but I don't think it's going to truly get rid of the real crazy shippers. Like, there will be copes and conspiracy theories galore. I'd wager we'll even get some "well the REAL Cloud and Aerith who totally exist!" types emerge.

I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.

I mean that's basically been the cope since AC came out. The crazy won't ever fully go away, but we're already seeing a major shift in the zeitgeist just from what was shown in Remake and Rebirth

 

[pxl_pushr]

I mean that's basically been the cope since AC came out. The crazy won't ever fully go away, but we're already seeing a major shift in the zeitgeist just from what was shown in Remake and Rebirth

At this point, I want two things by the time this is all wrapped up:

1) I want to be personally satisfied in the depictions and payoffs of everything set up in Remake and Rebirth ( ZA/CT included, but also whatever they’re cooking for Sephiroth )

2) I want anyone who tries to claim Tifa is a supporting character or whatever nonsense to play down her importance, to get laughed out of the room like they deserve.

The fringes of each ship won’t ever relent, but as long as anyone can talk about the character arcs of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith in their entirety without fear of being drowned in half baked takes and made up whatever, I consider it a win.

 

[GamerSkull]

People can argue over endgame, but you cannot imply that Tifa isn't also the heroine of the story. She's just as relevant as Aerith, for different reasons.

 

[Eerie]

People can argue over endgame, but you cannot imply that Tifa isn't also the heroine of the story. She's just as relevant as Aerith, for different reasons.

Oh, you'd be surprised, this argument comes back like a broken record.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Oh, you'd be surprised, this argument comes back like a broken record.

It really does, and I just don’t get it. Cloud minus Tifa = him being a black cloak stumbling around the train station in Midgar.

Both characters can be important without taking something from the other, and it’s odd some people don’t understand that?

 

[GamerSkull]

There's quite a bit of evidence both in-game and in developer material that both Aerith and Tifa are the heroines.

This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I was actually thinking about Tifa's importance to Cloud and the plot. I mean, at Cloud's lowest point, she's the one who helped him recover and become the best version of himself. And then he went on to defeat Sephiroth and save the world.

So it's so bizarre that people look at that and go "wow, what a beautiful platonic bond uwu" (if they even acknowledge the "platonic" part). If Aerith was supposed to be the love interest, shouldn't she have been the one to do that? And she didn't? So? Does anything click or are these people just ignorant of storytelling, romance and Japanese media? Or is it just a vested interest in denial? Because obviously Cloud was in love with Aerith, why else would he have been devastated at someone dying right in front of his face, and obviously Aerith was the sole heroine and obviously Tifa was just an unimportant side character without which the story would still work just fine.

 

[GamerSkull]

I was actually thinking about Tifa's importance to Cloud and the plot. I mean, at Cloud's lowest point, she's the one who helped him recover and become the best version of himself. And then he went on to defeat Sephiroth and save the world.

So it's so bizarre that people look at that and go "wow, what a beautiful platonic bond uwu" (if they even acknowledge the "platonic" part). If Aerith was supposed to be the love interest, shouldn't she have been the one to do that? And she didn't? So? Does anything click or are these people just ignorant of storytelling, romance and Japanese media? Or is it just a vested interest in denial? Because obviously Cloud was in love with Aerith, why else would he have been devastated at someone dying right in front of his face, and obviously Aerith was the sole heroine and obviously Tifa was just an unimportant side character without which the story would still work just fine.

I'm not sure how the devastation argument means anything. Cloud would have a similar reaction to Tifa dying, perhaps even worse.

Actually to be fair, I think Cloud would have a pretty bad reaction to anyone on the team dying.

I do, however, think this is a case of the promotional material and the stuff shown in Disc 1 giving certain fans a very strong impression that they are just unwilling to let go of. When you get so strongly invested in something, seeing it change can be hard to accept. Unfortunately, FFVII quite often plays with audience's genre expectations. Aerith is the white mage character, and I think at the time the personality type of those kinds of characters were the shy, introverted type while characters like Tifa are the more outgoing and direct type. White mage characters were the stereotypical love interest type characters too, which gets shattered later. And a character dying mid-game was rare. FFVII subverts these things, but too many are attached to the "stereotype" if that makes sense.

By the way, the story actually does not work without Tifa, and you would have to rewrite quite a bit to fit into the present story.

You would have to change Cloud's motivation for leaving Nibelheim. You would have to change how he is fixed from his mako coma. Tifa is the one that introduces Cloud to Avalanche which allows him to meet Aerith in the first place. If Tifa doesn't go meet Don Corneo, Aerith and Cloud would split up at the playground. If Tifa didn't ask Aerith to save Marlene, she would not be taken to Shinra HQ where the cast is put on Sephiroth's trail. Much of the Nibelheim incident would need to be altered so that it's still relevant to Cloud's identity.

After Aerith dies, he would need another reason to break down at the Northern Cave as it's not Sephiroth's reveal of that breaks him but the perception that Tifa might have lost faith in him. Then he needs help to be pieced back together, also Tifa who took care of him as a vegetable.

That last part is especially important because he's a vegetable. This means she likely helped the nurse with responsibilities that are probably not an easy thing for someone to do. That's real love... being there for someone who might not ever even wake up or function normally.

Sorry for the ramble. lol

 

[pxl_pushr]

There's quite a bit of evidence both in-game and in developer material that both Aerith and Tifa are the heroines.

This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.

It’s definitely a small group of bias players who push that line of thought, regardless of Disc 2 and 3 completely disagreeing with them.

I dunno. I think Rebirth goes out of its way to bring Aerith back down to earth and underscore Tifa’s importance in this middle section. You need both for this story, and shipping preferences don’t change that.

 

[abzy1200]

This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.

I'll go a step further and say people don't like to equate Tifa to Aerith because of antiquated views on how each of them dress.

I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end

Nah, they've fed the "both sides" argument too much over the years, intentional or not. The "Cloud loves both girls" view will never dissappear from a casual perspective. And definitely not from a hardcore shipper perspective.

Of course, the "debate" would be over, but it has been for 27 years now, so what exactly is new?

 

[eleamaya]

I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.

Nomura: I hope you enjoy the game we created and stay with us till the end. Even if someone misinterprets it, I say, "I see! Well, that can't be helped!", it's fine [laughs]


Source: 『FFVII リバース』野村哲也氏が語る、『FFVII』の特別さとは？　オリジナル版から25年以上の時を経てなお語り継がれる“あのシーン”について、その思いを語る

Funny because Nomura isn't "leave it up to player's interpretation" anymore since he mentions misinterpretation. So yeah, we can't help them.