GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, they definitely want to leave things less open for interpretation.
The issue is... it'll just be ignored. But like Nomura said; "Can't be helped."
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
The issue is... it'll just be ignored. But like Nomura said; "Can't be helped."
Xombii
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Zombinushka
Hi, I've been lurking around here for a while, and read up on all of... this. I am not good with words, I suppose it's one reason I have always just related to Cloud as a character. But here I am I suppose; apologies for rambling in advance.
FF7 has been my favourite game, my favourite story, since I first played it in 97.
Even as a 14 year old kid, I knew how the story went, relevant to the topic. with Tifa rescuing Cloud in Mideel, the lifestream scene being my alltime favourite in any game. Yea, even then I twigged what happened under the Highwind. We all SAW the conversation on the airship and Tifa hugging him after the battle.
If I'm honest, Aerith's death didn't really bother me, not half as much as Cloud breaking down in the North Crater. I was distraught by that part honestly. What I'm probably trying to say is I felt so much more for the plot between Cloud's ears than whatever happened outside, characters died every five minutes and over the years it hasn't changed Aer was one of the many and that's how I saw it. The whole team mourned. Tifa, Yuffie, cried. They carried on.
Obviously back then I wasn't a shipper or even really into romance, the story has so much more; but I did know there was some sort of fandom infighting that I ignored for the most part. I even collected the Amano art with Cloud and Aerith at the time and still I knew the story. Cloud was with Tifa, and I was... a mostly indifferent 14 year old, lol. Nevertheless I watched ACC, for the fights mostly, and didn't question them being together. I saw Aerith in side games and shrugged. She was pretty iconic, a well known character, I liked her as a character well enough despite har being removed from the party and mostly ignored for half the game. I played Crisis Core, and liked it, the ending made me cry, like I imagine everyone else.
I'm not sure why I felt the need to recount my feelings over this game lol. Though, I've never forgotten that time.
Well, dozens of years later, my ridiculously excited autistic old lady ass got hold of the remake and loved it. Cloud and Tifa were much closer than I remembered, but I was still mostly in it for the fighting, the drama. Still, trying to get back into the fandom I went looking for more. I read the novels and then I noticed the trend over the internet and forums. 'Aerith,' 'Aerith and Cloud,' everywhere. Or 'Cloud loves both girls, it's up to interpretation.'
I didn't fully agree but I shrugged and moved on. Sites like tvtropes and reddit aren't exactly the bastions of truth and so on, and I was pretty secure in my memories of playing the OG two dozen times by this point. It was quite easy to see that Cloud had dropped back in Midgar under the apparent assumption Tifa was his wife and he would do nasty things to anyone that looked at her funny. Aerith was the intentionally annoying big sis type, and the dynamic between the three was great, fun, I loved all of them.
Then Rebirth, got me. 100%, I was invested in this funny Kdrama couple that Cloud and Tifa had become. To me there was no real interpretation I felt, like I read so many people saying, like this was fairly obvious. But now there are people everywhere telling me that my interpretation is wrong. Googling anything about Cloud brings a whole pile of Aerith with it. Even feeling secure that I knew the story well enough to not be confused, I feel like I've been gaslighted or something. Is this it? that even though the debate was settled 27 years ago before a lot of the people debating it were even born, that it's just kinda okay to have so much of the searchable information on this game be misleading and innacurate? It's weird to me. I'm not naive to social media and fandoms, I'm aware this is the case for many. I suppose I'm just venting after the last few months of immersing myself here, where I never thought I would be, lol. Thank you for, tolerating this massive brick of nonsense.
Here's to the next 3 or so years of SMH at people I guess!
FF7 has been my favourite game, my favourite story, since I first played it in 97.
Even as a 14 year old kid, I knew how the story went, relevant to the topic. with Tifa rescuing Cloud in Mideel, the lifestream scene being my alltime favourite in any game. Yea, even then I twigged what happened under the Highwind. We all SAW the conversation on the airship and Tifa hugging him after the battle.
If I'm honest, Aerith's death didn't really bother me, not half as much as Cloud breaking down in the North Crater. I was distraught by that part honestly. What I'm probably trying to say is I felt so much more for the plot between Cloud's ears than whatever happened outside, characters died every five minutes and over the years it hasn't changed Aer was one of the many and that's how I saw it. The whole team mourned. Tifa, Yuffie, cried. They carried on.
Obviously back then I wasn't a shipper or even really into romance, the story has so much more; but I did know there was some sort of fandom infighting that I ignored for the most part. I even collected the Amano art with Cloud and Aerith at the time and still I knew the story. Cloud was with Tifa, and I was... a mostly indifferent 14 year old, lol. Nevertheless I watched ACC, for the fights mostly, and didn't question them being together. I saw Aerith in side games and shrugged. She was pretty iconic, a well known character, I liked her as a character well enough despite har being removed from the party and mostly ignored for half the game. I played Crisis Core, and liked it, the ending made me cry, like I imagine everyone else.
I'm not sure why I felt the need to recount my feelings over this game lol. Though, I've never forgotten that time.
Well, dozens of years later, my ridiculously excited autistic old lady ass got hold of the remake and loved it. Cloud and Tifa were much closer than I remembered, but I was still mostly in it for the fighting, the drama. Still, trying to get back into the fandom I went looking for more. I read the novels and then I noticed the trend over the internet and forums. 'Aerith,' 'Aerith and Cloud,' everywhere. Or 'Cloud loves both girls, it's up to interpretation.'
I didn't fully agree but I shrugged and moved on. Sites like tvtropes and reddit aren't exactly the bastions of truth and so on, and I was pretty secure in my memories of playing the OG two dozen times by this point. It was quite easy to see that Cloud had dropped back in Midgar under the apparent assumption Tifa was his wife and he would do nasty things to anyone that looked at her funny. Aerith was the intentionally annoying big sis type, and the dynamic between the three was great, fun, I loved all of them.
Then Rebirth, got me. 100%, I was invested in this funny Kdrama couple that Cloud and Tifa had become. To me there was no real interpretation I felt, like I read so many people saying, like this was fairly obvious. But now there are people everywhere telling me that my interpretation is wrong. Googling anything about Cloud brings a whole pile of Aerith with it. Even feeling secure that I knew the story well enough to not be confused, I feel like I've been gaslighted or something. Is this it? that even though the debate was settled 27 years ago before a lot of the people debating it were even born, that it's just kinda okay to have so much of the searchable information on this game be misleading and innacurate? It's weird to me. I'm not naive to social media and fandoms, I'm aware this is the case for many. I suppose I'm just venting after the last few months of immersing myself here, where I never thought I would be, lol. Thank you for, tolerating this massive brick of nonsense.
Here's to the next 3 or so years of SMH at people I guess!
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Hellenic
Welcome back. I also took a pretty big break from this thread till now having caught up finally.
This is the main problem pretty much always with their takes. There's never considerations made for what kinda impact these kinda decisions would end up doing for our characters. They only live in the exact moments but ignore what it would end up doing in the long run.
That take lives rent free in my head for how absolutely hilariously ironic it turned out.
I'd argue she's more of a heroine than Aerith honestly. Not to say Aerith isn't ofc, but Tifas removal from the game would require a full on rewriting of the game with how much it would change things. I'll never understand why someone would ever consider her a "non important side character" or whatever they say about her.
It's wild to me how Tifa gets brushed aside as a nobody for a supposed "true romance" between Cloud and Aerith when Tifa's the one who is there for him through many of his worst moments, supporting him by being by his side and helping him recover, while the "true love" is just dead and not really appearing much at all at that point, yet none of these things that Tifa does matter apparently anyway. Cloud would've been totally fine without her i'm sure.
Quite a bit feels like an understatement on how much they would have to rewrite without Tifa in the equation lol.
Welcome to the LTD for this one game that somehow keeps people debating the most obvious for this long even with a clear answer. It's best to just trust your own read on the story and forget what anyone tries to say in the world wide web. It's sad that it's come down to this for this particular game.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
@Xombii Welcome, LTD in this forum should be read as "Love Triangle Discussion". We barely debate here ever since hardcore Clerith such as Anastar and Blankbeat had left this forum. But yeah, we love discussing worst take from Twitter.
Anyway, thanks for your sharing. This make me wanna introduce my history in the shipping dynamic again.
In OG, I simply like CA dynamics more than CT because Aerith is straightforward girl. Well, maybe not CA but just my preferred girl. I mean, SE want us to be invested at Aerith for her death impact, right? And I'm one of them. But I aint dumb not to see where Cloud's heart belong to in LS scene. So I'm never in the camp "who Cloud love is open to interpretation and I believe this ship is canon." I'm more into "Cloud loves both girls and he's ended with Tifa whom he had always loved." CA is my preference because I'm sucker for tragic romance lol, and I'm pretty consistent with that trope. This is me also liking Inuyasha/Kikyo over Kagome and Kenshin/Tomoe over Kaoru.
By that, you can see how I easily jump on ZA wagon.
Actually, my first FF is FF8 when I was 12 (1999). I owned PS1 at the time when FF8 was hyped and barely invested to FF7 and FF9 because of the lego and chibi graphic compared to FF8. English is also not my native language (I'm from Indonesia), so I faced difficulties to understand the story at that age, I simply loved FF8 because of the graphics. So, my FF7 journey is started when Advent Children was massively advertised in 2004. There were two local magazines I bought for FF7AC headline, one is video game magazine, one is manga/anime magazine. I'm like "Wow, this guy is more handsome than Squall" lol. They retold FF7 story in the article and I remember one line since it's stuck in my 'sucker for tragedy' mind: "When Aerith met Cloud, she felt like she saw Zack who never come home, in him." WHO NEVER COME HOME. And the articles also spoiled me the full story so I knew who Zack is to Cloud.
Invested by it, I immediately replayed FF7 'cause my PS1 still worked. My feelings was sorry for Aerith already because I carried that sad line above. I was already on high school so I understand the story better (as I wrote in previous paragraph). I wasn't invested with ZA yet since Zack was barely there, and the fanworks of them was still rare. I never thought about ZA reunion in death at that time because 'well, dead is dead.' I even never thought of meteor destroyed by LS is Aerith's doing from the death lol.
So when I eventually watched FF7AC till ending as ZA walk out together, it made me bawl with happiness that she finally reunite with him. CT & ZA, end of story. And to be honest, I never played Crisis Core. I didn't buy PSP and I'm not into gaming anymore. I was introduced to CCFF7 because I watched FF7ACC in 2009 then I looked for full cutscene of CCFF7 in YouTube. I never read Dismantled and Maiden till I jump to fandom internet thanks to my hype of FF7ACC and CCFF7 at that time so it never corrupts my HC about ZA before CCFF7 exist; let alone corrupt how I've always viewed CA by my own in compilation since OG. I found CA Bible as it's full of Anti-CT, Anti-Tifa, Anti-ZA, and Anti-Zack; I felt it's different from my understanding of the story, that this is not right. Well, I know shipwar exist everywhere but I thought FF7 doesnt have it lol. I mean, one is dead and Cloud definitely ended up with Tifa.
I think that was also the time I know TLS for the first time before I finally joined in 2012.
Anyway, thanks for your sharing. This make me wanna introduce my history in the shipping dynamic again.
In OG, I simply like CA dynamics more than CT because Aerith is straightforward girl. Well, maybe not CA but just my preferred girl. I mean, SE want us to be invested at Aerith for her death impact, right? And I'm one of them. But I aint dumb not to see where Cloud's heart belong to in LS scene. So I'm never in the camp "who Cloud love is open to interpretation and I believe this ship is canon." I'm more into "Cloud loves both girls and he's ended with Tifa whom he had always loved." CA is my preference because I'm sucker for tragic romance lol, and I'm pretty consistent with that trope. This is me also liking Inuyasha/Kikyo over Kagome and Kenshin/Tomoe over Kaoru.
By that, you can see how I easily jump on ZA wagon.
Actually, my first FF is FF8 when I was 12 (1999). I owned PS1 at the time when FF8 was hyped and barely invested to FF7 and FF9 because of the lego and chibi graphic compared to FF8. English is also not my native language (I'm from Indonesia), so I faced difficulties to understand the story at that age, I simply loved FF8 because of the graphics. So, my FF7 journey is started when Advent Children was massively advertised in 2004. There were two local magazines I bought for FF7AC headline, one is video game magazine, one is manga/anime magazine. I'm like "Wow, this guy is more handsome than Squall" lol. They retold FF7 story in the article and I remember one line since it's stuck in my 'sucker for tragedy' mind: "When Aerith met Cloud, she felt like she saw Zack who never come home, in him." WHO NEVER COME HOME. And the articles also spoiled me the full story so I knew who Zack is to Cloud.
Invested by it, I immediately replayed FF7 'cause my PS1 still worked. My feelings was sorry for Aerith already because I carried that sad line above. I was already on high school so I understand the story better (as I wrote in previous paragraph). I wasn't invested with ZA yet since Zack was barely there, and the fanworks of them was still rare. I never thought about ZA reunion in death at that time because 'well, dead is dead.' I even never thought of meteor destroyed by LS is Aerith's doing from the death lol.
So when I eventually watched FF7AC till ending as ZA walk out together, it made me bawl with happiness that she finally reunite with him. CT & ZA, end of story. And to be honest, I never played Crisis Core. I didn't buy PSP and I'm not into gaming anymore. I was introduced to CCFF7 because I watched FF7ACC in 2009 then I looked for full cutscene of CCFF7 in YouTube. I never read Dismantled and Maiden till I jump to fandom internet thanks to my hype of FF7ACC and CCFF7 at that time so it never corrupts my HC about ZA before CCFF7 exist; let alone corrupt how I've always viewed CA by my own in compilation since OG. I found CA Bible as it's full of Anti-CT, Anti-Tifa, Anti-ZA, and Anti-Zack; I felt it's different from my understanding of the story, that this is not right. Well, I know shipwar exist everywhere but I thought FF7 doesnt have it lol. I mean, one is dead and Cloud definitely ended up with Tifa.
I think that was also the time I know TLS for the first time before I finally joined in 2012.
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abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
I think, as of the original compilation, "both girls" was a plausible read of the story. This is why when you google the topic, a metric ton of bad, disingenuous takes show up. I don't think it'll ever go away, honestly. But at the very least, part 3 will make a lot of us feel vindicated.
Can't wait for the "The original is the only one that matters, Remake changed everything" cope from Cleriths.
And also, feel free to interact with us in future, everyone has a say here.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
That's what I felt too!
And welcome! The LTD is pretty funny if it's not taken seriously, lol.
Xombii
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Zombinushka
Thanks! Sorry I waffle so badly but I have so much in my head lately about this lol. I sometimes feel like I must be missing something, you know? For the general understanding of the narrative to be so different than what I interpreted and remember. When I played, people were sad Aerith died, but for her OWN sake, not because of any romantic leanings or whatever. I feel like it cheapens the writing and the characters at this point. I wonder how people see their close friends, or perhaps Cloud should have just seen her die and been totally unbothered. who knows.
Perhaps because I spent so long not really considering the shipping perspective, it's hit me oddly to find it this way. Why would people lie about a piece of media millions of people are aware of, what is the end goal of this manipulation, I wonder?
I do sometimes find it ironic that in a game about identity and relationships, there is so much intentional twisting of the narrative to even ignore Cloud himself, as a character. In a game where the whole turning point of the story hinged on Cloud (with the help of Tifa) finding and accepting himself and breaking his delusions (which were arguably forced upon him maliciously for someone elses ends).
Perhaps because I spent so long not really considering the shipping perspective, it's hit me oddly to find it this way. Why would people lie about a piece of media millions of people are aware of, what is the end goal of this manipulation, I wonder?
I do sometimes find it ironic that in a game about identity and relationships, there is so much intentional twisting of the narrative to even ignore Cloud himself, as a character. In a game where the whole turning point of the story hinged on Cloud (with the help of Tifa) finding and accepting himself and breaking his delusions (which were arguably forced upon him maliciously for someone elses ends).
Xombii
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Zombinushka
Sorry, don't mean to spam. I too find the whole thing hilarious and riddled with the wildest takes. I get the 'tragic romance' angle but I'm pretty sure Zack has that part covered now and I've been weirdly invested in watching the writers pick apart the interpretations and rewrite them in front of us almost in real time via streams and other means. Like playing wack a mole with bad takes. I can imagine someone somewhere has a handprint permanently slapped into their own face from the daily facepalms.
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
It's a sunk cost thing. 30 odd years of arguing makes it hard to admit you weren't right.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Welcome!
Since everyone is sharing, I suppose I'll briefly share my history.
My introduction to Final Fantasy as a whole was through Kingdom Hearts, which I bought as a kid because of the Disney aspect. Also, at this time my only experience with turn-based JRPGs were of the Pokemon kind.
Ultimately, I got very interested in some of the side characters in that game, especially after learning a lot of them had their own videogames. I was interested in these characters but I had no stance on shipping or whatever since Kingdom Hearts doesn't actually explore them all that much. Eventually, a friend allowed me to borrow a PS1 copy of the game which I enjoyed. I actually vividly remember saying to my brother when I first started; "Oh, this is like Pokemon!". I got as far as the Rufus fight at Shinra HQ before I returned it to my friend.
Couple of years later, I bought it on my PS3/PSP and played it to completion. And to be honest, I don't actually remember a whole lot of this playthrough other than gameplay stuff I did because I remember researching a whole bunch of stuff for the side content. I do remember not being very surprised at Aerith dying but I think I was aware of it in advance. I thought the stuff with Tifa was nice but I wasn't much of a shipper back then so it was like... "Oh, ok so that's how the story goes."
Honestly, I think the gaslighting about Clerith is what drove me to actually shipping Cloti for real lmao. I think part of it was the fact that I'm confident in my media literacy so I couldn't fathom just being completely off the mark. (which I suppose might be how a lot of Clerith shippers feel).
So I guess I have something in common with them.
EDIT: Typos and Grammar
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Yeah, because the one segment of the fandom needs to invalidate her to prop up their ship.
I mean, thanks to rebirth we actually see what happens when Cloud thinks Tifa might be dead. He goes catatonic, and stays that way until Barret says "Tifa needs you." Actually for a moment after that, even.
I know the healer has a passive personality is a trope because of a lot of other RPGs, but hilariously, it's one that FF itself tried to avoid. FF4 has two white mages, Rosa and Porom and both of them are very forward and strong willed, and it's Rydia, the black mage, who is shy. Like yes, Rosa is a white mage and she's a love interest, but she also decided to learn magic and archery so she could be of use on the battlefield for the man she fancied.
But yeah, FF7 was absolutely messing with expectations and a lot of people don't want to admit they didn't see past those.
No, it's worth noting that the first plot beat- not the last, by any means, but the first- that would not be completely derailed by removing Tifa is the assault on ShinRa tower. Ironically, it would be the first where removing Aerith would be a major derail (That or the quest to rescue Tifa in Wall Market, though possibly Jessie could stand in for her, who knows.)
I don't think he ever was. I think Nomura was "you people can figure it out on your own. I don't need to hold your hands, talk about it."
And now he's realizing "Fuck, some of them do need the hand holding."
That's because you are coming at it from a position of coherent storytelling, and not shipping uber alles.
Since we're talking about how we first played FF7, It was in 98 for me. I bought a secondhand PS1 and some games for a steal from a classmate, played the fuck out of it. It was not my first RPG or FF so seeing a party member die for real was not too surprising. (FF4/ 2US will do that for you) and it seemed pretty obvious that Cloud had feelings for Tifa even early on, but undeniably so after Northern Crater and the Lifestream.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I've said it enough but I started my FFVII journey by hating Cloud and Aerith; despised the both of them - my hatred for Aerith didn't melt down until REMAKE where I absolutely loved her there. My hatred for Cloud lasted until the Lifestream scene and after, where he revealed his true self: I liked this Cloud, and was actually really mad to see his emo self in AC/C (I really dislike this movie, even if it's CT and I understand what they wanted to do, the characterisation is barely acceptable in ACC, there are not enough interactions, lacks old Avalanche members, etc.). So the Lifestream scene to me evidently said "Cloud loves Tifa even more than she does love him" (I started shipping them at this point, before I was more like team Tifa you can drop this giant arsehole girl, no one will miss him xD), under the Highwind they became a couple, end of story.
That was until I stumbled on the LTD (pre-AC in 2004) and I was deeply shocked by people who believed Cloud loved Aerith. The rest is history - but I'm smug as the Remake trilogy is proving me right, after all those years. It also became quite evident that years prior to Remake, SE was giving CT the canon pair treatment, and a lot of the PR didn't even reach us as it was intended for JP audience only.
That was until I stumbled on the LTD (pre-AC in 2004) and I was deeply shocked by people who believed Cloud loved Aerith. The rest is history - but I'm smug as the Remake trilogy is proving me right, after all those years. It also became quite evident that years prior to Remake, SE was giving CT the canon pair treatment, and a lot of the PR didn't even reach us as it was intended for JP audience only.
Nah, you remove Tifa, Cloud's not even bothering waking up, that's the truth. There's no FFVII to even start, period.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
You know, it's not just FF7 with a crazy LTD and bonkers takes. Avatar: The Last Airbender fandom, for example, is still repeating the same bad faith arguments and that show aired from 2005-2008. And that show didn't even have a love triangle, lol. I honestly don't know what people get out of lying about the source material since people absolutely can have fun with their fanon while understanding that fanon =/= canon. But I think the only people they want to convince are themselves.
Is that really a trope, though? For example, Nina (BOF1 and BOF4) was basically a white mage type and she was headstrong? In FE you can have multiple characters of the same job class so there's a lot of variation of personalities and the only character who comes to mind as a white mage archetype, so to speak, is Natasha from Sacred Stones. Admittedly, I've only played four Seiken Densetsus so far but I don't think there was like a classic white mage? Ditto for Golden Sun, iirc. G.O.D. had Mina but she wasn't exactly a passive wallflower either, I think. And I'm totally blanking out on other JRPGs.
But I think for the most part I haven't really seen this white mage archetype so I'm curious where this impression started from?
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
It only applies on crack shippers and fujoshi. But the ship involving the main characters and het? Nah.
What I dont get is the ship war between one dead and one alive love interest. Look at Kikyo (dead) & Kagome (alive), Tomoe (dead) or Kaoru (alive), Stella (dead) and Lunamaria (alive) etc I can still count. Is it that hard to accept both despite the preference of which character? Though, I admit what Cloud feels is debatable at the end and it'll eventually come to less interpretation and clear with this Remake project, but to deny the protagonist love to the alive love interest? AFAIK, only Cleriths do.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I agree. I think the big idea though is that Tifa is basically the first domino that topples all the others. Without her, Cloud is still in the same half-coma state he's in after he and Zack escape Nibelheim and none of the story happens, as he'd probably just be another black coat that showed up at the Northern Cave. Sure, I suppose you can write it so that something else breaks him out of it... but the story as originally presented means that Tifa basically gets the ball rolling on a lot, even as far back as Cloud leaving to try to become a SOLDIER in the first place.
At the end of the day, the story is just massively different without her. So saying she's irrelevant... is just wrong.
It's funny though. I'm not actually much of a shipper, I kinda just accept what's presented as canon and go "Cool. I'm okay with that" or "I prefer that but it's fine, I can move on."
I think it's really specific to FF7 that I get this heated about shipping.
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I completely agree. What I am saying is that it takes until the assault on ShinRa Tower to have a plot beat where Tifa not being in the plot (Like, for example she stays behind to guard Marlene instead of joining in, even if that's out of character) doesn't completely derail things.
And you also rather immediately derail the plot again when it comes to the escape from ShinRa tower because she's the one who thinks to drive the truck, and Aerith almost certainly does not know how. (Barret and Red XIII are out for rather obvious reasons.)
Actually, now I'm curious about how Cloud and Tifa learned how to operate motor vehicles.
By the time of BOF it was already being moved away from, and it's more of a trope from media in general than video games specifically, but you could see it in early Fire Emblems, for example.
Kikyo/ Kagome is a weird ass example because they are and are not the same person and Kikyo's not exactly gone even though she should be, so you can see why she complicates matters even though the choice was obvious from the start (Rumiko is very very blunt in her foreshadowing).
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
In Cloud's case, it was probably part of his training as an infantryman. Shinra would probably want to invest in their troops knowing how to operate vehicles.
It's much stranger for Tifa as we know she comes to Midgar immediately after the Nibelheim Incident and is forced into the slums... where she's busy working and meeting the demands of daily life. How did she find a car to even practice driving?
Maybe there were some run-down cars that she was able to use or something.
I think what we should really be asking is how Cloud is able to dance so well. I know FF8 explained that Squall got some dance lessons in case a mission required him to utilize those skills. But the Shinra troops are just grunts essentially, while SeeDs are mercenaries that take part in different kinds of missions.
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abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
Might as well share as well:
I loved playing Cloud in Smash Ultimate (and still do), and then when Sora was announced for that game, I decided I would play Kingdom Hearts, and Cloud was in it. Contemplated buying the Remake but saw it wasn't turn based, which at the time turned me off rpgs. Couple weeks later I saw it for half msrp in my local secondhand shop, and decided to buy it since I thought Cloud and Sephiroth were cool enough to give it a go.
Absolutely loved the game, and replayed it after I pirated it on my pc about 3 months later. I bought the original for cheap during a steam sale, and played it while I had Covid a little while later. I loved every bit of it, even the graphics, I still feel like they're quite charming nowadays. The old graphics never bothered me since I was used to playing older games throughout my life. After playing the original, I was kind of soured on Remake because I thought they dragged out Midgar way too much for basically nothing. I think they said they wanted to expand Midgar in the Remake, but I don't really think they did.
I don't remember what I thought of shipping at the time, but I do remember being partial to Cloti. I felt very gaslit when I first started seeing tweets about ff7, though Rebirth has me feeling quite vindicated and I'm sure part 3 will be no different. It wasn't really until I read this site's analysis of the LTD that I had a clear picture of basically this whole subject.
I loved playing Cloud in Smash Ultimate (and still do), and then when Sora was announced for that game, I decided I would play Kingdom Hearts, and Cloud was in it. Contemplated buying the Remake but saw it wasn't turn based, which at the time turned me off rpgs. Couple weeks later I saw it for half msrp in my local secondhand shop, and decided to buy it since I thought Cloud and Sephiroth were cool enough to give it a go.
Absolutely loved the game, and replayed it after I pirated it on my pc about 3 months later. I bought the original for cheap during a steam sale, and played it while I had Covid a little while later. I loved every bit of it, even the graphics, I still feel like they're quite charming nowadays. The old graphics never bothered me since I was used to playing older games throughout my life. After playing the original, I was kind of soured on Remake because I thought they dragged out Midgar way too much for basically nothing. I think they said they wanted to expand Midgar in the Remake, but I don't really think they did.
I don't remember what I thought of shipping at the time, but I do remember being partial to Cloti. I felt very gaslit when I first started seeing tweets about ff7, though Rebirth has me feeling quite vindicated and I'm sure part 3 will be no different. It wasn't really until I read this site's analysis of the LTD that I had a clear picture of basically this whole subject.
We all know they're Zack's dance skills and he's just borrowing them.
I dunno, Cloud had to earn back his 2000 Gil somehow…
I guess what really confuses me about the whole “you can remove Tifa” angle is that all of Cloud’s “why’s” vanish with her. Why did he want to be a SOLDIER, why did he have a complex about being weak, etc
That’s what makes the water tower flashback in the opening of FF7 so genius imo, Cloud never says why, but your brain fills in the blank based on what he does say, and it fills it in wrong ( most likely ). It isn’t until halfway through the game that someone finally asks the question you never knew wasn’t answered: why did Cloud want to join Soldier?
Part of me feels mixed on Remake holding your hand a little more, but considering the past 27 years, I get it. A lot of the old heads are tired of letting people figure out for themselves only to have a pile of wrong answers to show for it. Some shipping based, others lore and plot based, or worth integrating compilation stuff for better world building
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I think a lot of them might want to put the debate to rest before retirement.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Obviously because of his crush on Sephiroth.
Oh, FF7. That beautiful platonic ideal but incidentally only between Cloud/Tifa.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I find it funny that some Cleriths respect Aerith's murderer more than Tifa.Obviously because of his crush on Sephiroth.
Oh, FF7. That beautiful platonic ideal but incidentally only between Cloud/Tifa.
Shadowstorm
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Yen
Heya, I've been lurking for a bit but I figure everyone sharing FF7 histories is probably a good time to jump in as well
I got into the series a few months ago because of the Rebirth Aerti hype train, was surprised to find out I actually thought the canon romantic situation was just as compelling, got really confused upon finishing the OG that there was even a debate about what was canon at all, went looking for the reasoning because I'm curious and possibly a masochist, found an article unpacking it on this site which lead me to this forum
Good on you guys for actually keeping things civil and shit it's a mess out there. Also don't know if the folks behind that article are still around, but that ended up being really informative as a new fan so thanks for that
I got into the series a few months ago because of the Rebirth Aerti hype train, was surprised to find out I actually thought the canon romantic situation was just as compelling, got really confused upon finishing the OG that there was even a debate about what was canon at all, went looking for the reasoning because I'm curious and possibly a masochist, found an article unpacking it on this site which lead me to this forum
Good on you guys for actually keeping things civil and shit it's a mess out there. Also don't know if the folks behind that article are still around, but that ended up being really informative as a new fan so thanks for that
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Welcome!
So you binged the entire series before the release of Rebirth? Jealous.
FF7 is one of those games I wish I could wipe from my memory so I could experience it for the first time again.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I've always assumed the pop up bun shop she worked at was a food truck situation, maybe she had to drive it a few times.
That or they got experience driving beaters in the middle of nowhere in Nibelheim. It would certainly fit with my first experience operating a motorized vehicle (minibike) at the ripe old age of 5.
Dance fights are a known Wutai strategy. All ShinRa troopers must be prepared to throw down at a moment's notice.
In my case I always thought the why's were obvious from the moment of the water tower flashback and just hammered home in the Nibelheim flashback. Like, the full details weren't there, but Cloud was centering Tifa very early on, even when Aerith was taking center stage, Cloud was hyperocused on Tifa.
Well yeah, he's only killing her, and that's no big deal for the perfect
At the moment that's basically just me? I didn't write it but I did help.
And yeah, it's chill here. All the people who tended to make it a cesspool have moved over to twitter, basically.
Edit: Is that Yen as in Yennifer of the Witcher?