SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Empyrea]

I get the basic idea of 2 lonely people confiding in each other and helping each other grow up as people and the bantering that the dynamic brings can be cute i suppose, but with how little any of the FF7 games actually built them up, i just can't really get onboard for the Clerith ship.

The basic idea doesn't even quite work when Cloud literally can't confide in Aerith because his memories were scrambled at the time. Aerith talks about it, sure. But Cloud never does (unless memory is failing me).

Why exactly is Clerith as popular as it is? Why are we still having this big competition of the 2 ships? I just don't really get it.

I'm putting my bet on vibes and CA having a tragic angle plus being backed up by a lot of popular tropes at the time. Honestly, though, I also don't get it, but that comes with the territory when I thought Aerith was pretty bratty and insensitive in OG, so I was very far from even liking her by herself. Hell, I just said a few posts before this that I don't really buy what the games (Retrilogy included) are telling me about her and Cloud's dynamic.

 

[imach0c0]

Aerith clearly fell for him but a one-sided love never made a pairing canon. Time will also tell if Aerith truly fell for Cloud, or if she fell for Zack's image in Cloud - which I suspect is a possibility too; this should be cleared in p3. If they don't want Zack to feel like second best, they might go for the second option.

I can see the second option being expanded upon as this idea seems to have been setup. In the the Ch.14 Resolution scene (Remake). Aerith tells Cloud (and mostly herself) that the "love" is in her imagination. By the end of the dream date, Aerith questions her "suki" for Cloud.

 

[imach0c0]

I felt so vindicated by that. My first thought when playing the ending was just "oh they're just exploring the denial stage of grief in an extreme way by having Cloud unable to accept it, reflecting all the players that desperately tried to find a way to save Aerith back in the OG, and making it part of his weaker and weaker grasp on reality. Cool beans" and was surprised to find that not the general consensus lol. It's nice to see I'm on similar wavelength as the devs there.

I believe Nomura mentioned in an interview (Game Informer) that he wanted to explore the denialism aspect of loss and the struggles to overcome that.

 

[GamerSkull]

Nah i'd much rather take ambiguous than accepting some kinda last minute ass pull Clerith after everything they've done to pull further away from that possibility.

I only say so because they’ve seemingly committed to ZA and CT. That I’ll just be very annoyed if they chicken out at the last minute…

 

[Hellenic]

I think a lot of it is that, especially in the OG, Clerith is baited with some incredibly popular tropes. It was a clever way to build quick investment in the ship and Aerith herself to ensure her death would hurt, but a lot of shippers just never look past it at all. Hell, I've seen people reduce the entire ship war to if you prefer a meet-cute or childhood friends.

Part of it is also just love for Aerith. Her fate is tragic and deeply unfair, her not even being Cloud's one true love after all that is just too much heartbreak for a lot of people. It's one of the reasons I'd like for her to have a bit more of a send-off in the LS with Zack this time around, just to highlight that she isn't left without her love story and there has always been someone as desperate to reunite with her as they wish Cloud was.

Some folks just love a tragic romance too.

Yeah i guess the tropes speak for itself and draw people in. Not something that's generally enough for me to be invested for sure. I've also never been into tragic romance at all. Not something that appeals to me at all. I second the better send off for Aerith.

People also seemingly have an easier time self-inserting as Aerith too so that’s potentially part of it. (Even though Tifa has a lot of relatable traits such as insecurity, kindness, guilt, etc.)

With the loner aspect i guess? But Tifa honestly to me feels like the easier to relate character out of the 2 in general. She's the most human character in the game probably.

Yeah, I just hope people will actually reflect back on the stuff and be like, "oh, so that's why!"

At least there is way stronger build up for it this time around so if people are still too stubborn to see what is going on then that's on them.

Hmm... From what I've noticed, a lot of people are into shipping just to fill pretty dolls with tropes and kinks they like. So if the dolls are pretty and they fill basic tropes, I guess that's enough for people? But honestly, forget about shipping, I can't imagine getting invested in a story, world, and characters I don't even know, lol.

Interesting. I definitely need to learn about the actual work before i can get invested in anything. The interest in possible characters and their dynamics comes after for me.

Since I'm not a Clerith, obviously I can't answer. But I imagine that a part of the appeal is that there's enough there to get invested in the first place but also not enough that people can fill in the blanks. And usually, what people fill the blanks with is more interesting than what's actually there. Or well, that's what I've noticed about other non-canon ships anyway.

That would sorta explain why the extremes try to twist some things to essentially make it seem like they got more than they actually did too. The lack of real content for the couple.

Honestly, there is shipping, and people can ship whatever and it's fine, and there's canon. Personally I'm not here to discuss "shipping", but to discuss "canon". So that there are a lot of people shipping CA isn't really a problem to me - there are still way more CTs. It's fine but it's when they pretend that it's canon that I'm crossing eyes; CA does not meet the treshold for "canon" aka two characters being in love with each other. Aerith clearly fell for him but a one-sided love never made a pairing canon. Time will also tell if Aerith truly fell for Cloud, or if she fell for Zack's image in Cloud - which I suspect is a possibility too; this should be cleared in p3. If they don't want Zack to feel like second best, they might go for the second option.

Yeah maybe me asking why they are being shipped was a bit pointless considering people ship literally anything they can come up with even if the characters never even interact. I'm just surprised Clerith is as popular as it is, but i'm not the most romantic person ever anyway so what do i know.

I'm putting my bet on vibes and CA having a tragic angle plus being backed up by a lot of popular tropes at the time. Honestly, though, I also don't get it, but that's come with the territory when I thought Aerith was pretty bratty and insensitive in OG, so I was very far from even liking her by herself. Hell, I just said a few posts before this that I don't really buy what the games (Retrilogy) are telling me about her and Cloud's dynamic.

Aerith definitely never came across in the most positive ways to me either from way back then. The dynamic for the most part also does feel very one sided which doesn't really help me get invested either. It's only when Aerith is not being pushy when the dynamic feels better to me as Cloud isn't just on the receiving end.

Anyhow thanks for all the replies people.

 

[Sacky]

The main FF7 Remake reddit is a shipper warzone right now? like theres legit just a ship war post that breaks all the rules and somehow that's not taken down. But when they complained about Tifa fan art having her look like an angel it gets taken down because ship wars???? it was only one side arguing. Also wana see the worst analysis of Traces of Two Pasts possible? like what is going on lately. Just lying and not including full context.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1evh08l/_/lit5hbh

 

[Ryushikaze]

Just lying and not including full context.

Not to sound old and bitter, but welcome to 1997 through the present day. That's always been the case with the hardcore culty cleriths.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I wanted to say things should always change with perspective and be flexible and don't get stuck in the past or at least in you're going to stay there do so in peace and enjoy your content respectfully. For example I was always adamant Aerith was genuinely interested in Cloud and used the Ultimania quote about her being able to see through but if part 3 is hard-core ZA well then I'll just have to accept that. I might be salty but not really especially if they get kiss/full body hug/etc.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I wanted to say things should always change with perspective and be flexible and don't get stuck in the past or at least in you're going to stay there do so in peace and enjoy your content respectfully. For example I was always adamant Aerith was genuinely interested in Cloud and used the Ultimania quote about her being able to see through but if part 3 is hard-core ZA well then I'll just have to accept that. I might be salty but not really especially if they get kiss/full body hug/etc.

I would state that Aerith could be interested in Cloud for Cloud, wants to be, even, but she never gets the chance. Consciously, she is trying to move on. Subconsciously, she's trying to recapture what she felt with Zack and fell into a little mental trap of "he reminds me of Zack, it must be the same sort of love" and when she realizes she hasn't actually met Cloud for Cloud yet it's too late.
That said, I do think she and Zack will get a happy reunion- or at least as happy as being reunited in the afterlife is, anyways.

 

[Sacky]

Not to sound old and bitter, but welcome to 1997 through the present day. That's always been the case with the hardcore culty cleriths.

Yeah its just wild to see that the main reddit which normally doesn't allow this has these people everywhere xd

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah its just wild to see that the main reddit which normally doesn't allow this has these people everywhere xd

They're extra salty with how much attention Tifa has been given lately. Even the ones who don't overtly hate her are having gnawing doubts about their various copes so they're going on the offensive.

 

[GamerSkull]

They're extra salty with how much attention Tifa has been given lately. Even the ones who don't overtly hate her are having gnawing doubts about their various copes so they're going on the offensive.

I don't really understand why... I mean, they held hands so obviously there's nothing to be afraid of. /s

Okay, that's mean. But in all seriousness, my experience with Reddit has taught me that a subreddit's rules don't matter if any of the mods are biased, which appears to be the case in all the FF subreddits.

 

[Eerie]

They're extra salty with how much attention Tifa has been given lately. Even the ones who don't overtly hate her are having gnawing doubts about their various copes so they're going on the offensive.

I mean, it's only going to get worse when they'll truly launch P3.

So far I've seen racist (and towards people who like her, not characters) and super sexist/mysogin tweets and I'm like ".... good luck in p3 guys".

 

[pxl_pushr]

I mean, it's only going to get worse when they'll truly launch P3.

So far I've seen racist (and towards people who like her, not characters) and super msexist/mysogin tweets and I'm like ".... good luck in p3 guys".

Been replaying OG and I’m actually spotting very tiny hints that foresight has always been a part of this story but I just finished NC and…

Boy did I forget how interesting it is that Tifa’s focus coincides with the game finally telling you the truth. That and taking Vincent through the whirlwind maze just makes sense to me.

I just can’t see it walking back any of the developments from the first two games, there just isn’t any time to do it convincingly. Especially when they spent so much time in Rebirth saying “Loveless still matters, and it’s still about Zack. Oh and was originally about Jenova.”

 

[GamerSkull]

I mean, it's only going to get worse when they'll truly launch P3.

So far I've seen racist (and towards people who like her, not characters) and super msexist/mysogin tweets and I'm like ".... good luck in p3 guys".

The implosion is gonna be pretty big it seems.

I wonder what the cope will be when it finally comes.

 

[Eerie]

Been replaying OG and I’m actually spotting very tiny hints that foresight has always been a part of this story but I just finished NC and…

Boy did I forget how interesting it is that Tifa’s focus coincides with the game finally telling you the truth. That and taking Vincent through the whirlwind maze just makes sense to me.

I just can’t see it walking back any of the developments from the first two games, there just isn’t any time to do it convincingly. Especially when they spent so much time in Rebirth saying “Loveless still matters, and it’s still about Zack. Oh and was originally about Jenova.”

Disc 2 always had a very heavy focus on Tifa and CT, which is why since even before Remake, CTs were more impatients for that part of the story lol. Literally, NC scene, Junon escape, Tifa as party leader, Mideel, Lifestream scene, Highwind scene, the ending. These are absolutely fantastic and are tied to Tifa, so it always makes me scratch my head when I see some extremists say CA will kiss in p3. Like, no they aren't going to. The game isn't going in that direction.

And that's without talking about Rocket Town, the Huge Materia questline, Wutai, Fort Condor, going back to the City of the Ancients and getting all the limits, etc.

The reason why CA had all these goodbyes is because... it's the end. When she held his hand after the Sephiroth fight, Aerith was telling Cloud goodbye (which is why the scene after is so jarring but it makes sense if it's Jenova/his weak mind imagining he managed to save her). She definitely did not talk to him again, IMHO. And she won't until she saves him after the last fight against Sephiroth in p3, I think. At some point, the feeling of loss is going to kick in.

 

[GamerSkull]

And that's without talking about Rocket Town, the Huge Materia questline, Wutai, Fort Condor, going back to the City of the Ancients and getting all the limits, etc.

Basically this, Part 3 is too crowded to set up a CA romance now. It should have been set up in Rebirth if that was the payoff they were going for. They literally have no time to undo the romance with Tifa and replace it with Aerith romance stuff. They would also have to spend time making sure Zack still gets a good payoff.

They simply don't have time. They might have if they started it in Part 2 but they didn't. They've spent too much time setting up Cloti.

 

[MissMDusk]

Logged onto twitter after what feels like months and it's still a blood bath.

Question, can I check if Zack has ever been described as a 'taisetsuna hito'(?), or has it just been Aerith?

Saw some Japanese twitter user say one source from a CT user apparently says "his (cloud's) best friend Zack and precious person Aerith" and not Zack being described as "precious person", not sure if this is accurate and wasn't about to delve into the CA side of twitter to check lol.

 

[Eerie]

Question, can I check if Zack has ever been described as a 'taisetsuna hito'(?), or has it just been Aerith?

Zack, Aerith and Tifa all have been described as taisetsuna no hito.

Only Tifa has been described as taisetsuna no josei (which is only romantic) to Cloud.

Edit: found the relevant tweet: x.com

 

[Ryushikaze]

Zack, Aerith and Tifa all have been described as taisetsuna no hito.

Only Tifa has been described as taisetsuna no josei (which is only romantic) to Cloud.

Edit: found the relevant tweet: x.com

Taisetsu -na- hito and josei, but yes. Don't worry, I keep messing that one up too, because your brain is primed for a no because it's commonly used as a linkage particle, but it's not actually used here.

Oh, and Jessie is ALSO Taisetsunahito.

 

[MissMDusk]

Zack, Aerith and Tifa all have been described as taisetsuna no hito.

Only Tifa has been described as taisetsuna no josei (which is only romantic) to Cloud.

Edit: found the relevant tweet: x.com

Amazing, thanks!

Then can I also check that this is not a romantic term? Or depends on the context?

Also extreme CAs are so aggressive on twitter my god... I slightly fear the devs read this and think it's the norm/majority opinion.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Amazing, thanks!

Then can I also check that this is not a romantic term? Or depends on the context?

Also extreme CAs are so aggressive on twitter my god... I slightly fear the devs read this and think it's the norm/majority opinion.

It could be used as a romantic term, but you wouldn't take it's usage as automatically romantic, unlike with taisetsuna josei or dansei. Like, unless it was the guy's mother, you'd never use josei without romantic implications, and even then it's a bit odd to use even for your mom.

 

[Eerie]

Also extreme CAs are so aggressive on twitter my god... I slightly fear the devs read this and think it's the norm/majority opinion.

Seeing that Hamaguchi follows at least one big CT fan account as well as other CTs and tours and sees just how much Tifa is cheered on everywhere... Nah. They know they've done a proper job at least with the Re-trilogy re: CT and properly showed that they are the main pair.

Also I think they wouldn't care. Nojima isn't going to back down, he's said it, Nomura said it.

 

[GamerSkull]

Also extreme CAs are so aggressive on twitter my god... I slightly fear the devs read this and think it's the norm/majority opinion.

I can't really blame them. They have to really twist things in order for their ship to sail and it's harder for them to prove their side.

I expect the closer we get to Part 3's release, the more desperate they'll be in trying to get things to change. They claim that the kiss means nothing but deep down, I expect it actually scares them. I suppose that's a bit mean to say but I would wager it's the truth.

 

[imach0c0]

The reason why CA had all these goodbyes is because... it's the end. When she held his hand after the Sephiroth fight, Aerith was telling Cloud goodbye (which is why the scene after is so jarring but it makes sense if it's Jenova/his weak mind imagining he managed to save her). She definitely did not talk to him again, IMHO. And she won't until she saves him after the last fight against Sephiroth in p3, I think. At some point, the feeling of loss is going to kick in.

During the ending, one of the things that stood out to me was Aerith having Cloud commit to taking care of Sephiroth (esp when she told Cloud to do the opposite in the Sleeping Forest). The Aerith that appears after the AC-esque CA scene was unsettling due to her body language and facial expressions, it didn't feel natural.