SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, I forgot there was another rescuing Rosa situation haha. I actually meant the second time,

I was trying to be conservative with my guess on where you were in the plot to avoid spoiling you.

though I managed to play a little bit more today and got to hang with some dwarves and learned that instead of 3 dead kids I only have 2 dead kids and one that got aged up as if she's a comic book legacy kid. So you know doing a little better in the child endangerment department. There might be more I don't know but I did get some Cloud vibes with Cecil having basically and identity overhaul too, albeit a different flavor of it.

Yeah, Cecil's Paladin turn and needing to look inward and face inner demons hit very similar to Cloud. I do wish the game might have done more with Dark and Light Cecil though. It was done magnificently in Dissidia.
I'm still fucking gobsmacked he never showed up in Kingdom Hearts in any capacity.

edit: realized just a second too late I probably should have just edited this into the previous post to avoid double posting. Sorry about that

You actually don't have any dead kids. Palom and Porom are self petrified, rather than dead. You can actually attempt to use petrification curatives on them and the game notes that they are keeping themselves that way. Tellah is fucking D-E-D dead though.
Also, since you are down in the underworld, I STRONGLY recommend checking out all the caves you can, especially the very annoying one with the damage floors you need to use float for. It can be a major pain but it's got powerful rewards and some fun lore in it too as it's part of a sidequest.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah, Cecil's Paladin turn and needing to look inward and face inner demons hit very similar to Cloud. I do wish the game might have done more with Dark and Light Cecil though. It was done magnificently in Dissidia.

I'll have to check out Dissidia once I've got a few more FF titles under my belt so I won't be too lost, it sounds interesting. And yeah, FF4 is good as it is but the concepts there are compelling enough to make me wish it could get the remake treatment as well, I'd love to see it fleshed out more.

You actually don't have any dead kids. Palom and Porom are self petrified, rather than dead. You can actually attempt to use petrification curatives on them and the game notes that they are keeping themselves that way. Tellah is fucking D-E-D dead though.

That just feels like a fate worse than death though! I thought 7 was supposed to be the sad one I wasn't ready for them to do me like that!

Also, since you are down in the underworld, I STRONGLY recommend checking out all the caves you can, especially the very annoying one with the damage floors you need to use float for. It can be a major pain but it's got powerful rewards and some fun lore in it too as it's part of a sidequest.

Noted! I missed a lot of side content playing the OGFF7 so I appreciate having a heads up so I can avoid the same here. Should I be looking around now or will I have the option to go on a tour once I have the airship back?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll have to check out Dissidia once I've got a few more FF titles under my belt so I won't be too lost, it sounds interesting. And yeah, FF4 is good as it is but the concepts there are compelling enough to make me wish it could get the remake treatment as well, I'd love to see it fleshed out more.

That just feels like a fate worse than death though! I thought 7 was supposed to be the sad one I wasn't ready for them to do me like that!

Noted! I missed a lot of side content playing the OGFF7 so I appreciate having a heads up so I can avoid the same here. Should I be looking around now or will I have the option to go on a tour once I have the airship back?

Airship. I mention this one because the rewards are more powerful the sooner you get them and if you do the sidequest when it first becomes available, you get an extra reward (The cave, irritatingly, requires three total trips to complete. One for the sidequest, one to go on a different path that's mutually exclusive with getting the sidequest, and one to come back and progress the sidequest and get the partial quest rewards)

 

[Fakewings_]

I think it helps them feel comfortable with each other and even allows Aerith to actually be vulnerable about her own feelings on a few occasions.

I do agree with you from this perspective. C feels quite comfortable with A, and the only time C opened up to A, I think, was at the water tower, but it was about a topic related to T.
To have a clearer comparison, I tried relating the relationship between C&A to Ichigo and Rukia in Bleach. Rukia is the one who lifted Ichigo's spirits many times, acted as his guide, and was the person for whom Ichigo risked his life (but that doesn't mean I ship IchiRuki, because I understand the author’s intention from the beginning when Orihime was introduced into the picture). Therefore, it's clear that the bond between C&A, IMO, is quite weak and loose.
The devs had plenty of opportunities to deepen the relationship, making C feel more of a loss when A dies, through scenes at the water tower, the beach... But no, T is the only person C truly opens up to and reveals his dark side and fears. T is the only one C subconsciously accepted, becoming the reason behind all of C’s transformations.
That's why I don't understand why C is so haunted by A's death in AC, even more than by Zack's, and even more than by the death of his own mother.

 

[Maidenofwar]

If you don't understand then you're not going to, even JP streamers who ship CT say lover tie when CA are standing back to back with fingers intertwined at the end of the game.

CA's follow up scene at the well is also not about Tifa it's about Cloud reassuring Aerith that she can get mad and vent to him if she wants to that he's there for her for that.
The beach scene is also detailed, well done, and shows their bonding.

Cloud flat up returns to himself into the Temple of them Ancients seeing and remembering Aerith on Loveless Street.

He also crawls on the ground, trying to get after Aerith in the Sleeping Forest. Something the last time he did when loosing Claudia in Nibelheim.

They don't have a weak bond.

Something I was also thinking about was how both Aerith and Tifa work together throughout Rebirth even through chapter 11 and beyond, they support, shield and encourage Cloud in moments of vulnerability. That's how I couldn't understand those who said they didn't do well with Aerith and Tifa in Rebirth.

 

[Fakewings_]

CA's follow up scene at the well is also not about Tifa it's about Cloud reassuring Aerith that she can get mad and vent to him if she wants to that he's there for her for that.
The beach scene is also detailed, well done, and shows their bonding.

as i said before C is willing to listen, share, and encourage A. However, C isn’t yet ready to reciprocate by sharing his own feelings and thoughts with A. I’m not talking about the romantic aspect here, just wanting to analyze the depth of the relationship between the two. Of course, this is just my point of view, so take it easy.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well Cloud is often vulnerable around Aerith (and Tifa) often while having an episode, this might be out of his control, but doesn't change the fact that they are there for him, often holding his hand, with gentle words, or watching over him while he rests.

In terms of heart to hearts I think Cloud wanted to over Zack but couldn't have a serious discussion there for obvious reasons. Some things they just couldn't push too far on at that stage of the game.

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

 

[GamerSkull]

I would say Cloud and Aerith do have a strong bond, and he definitely does feel an attachment to her especially after her death. I just don’t necessarily ascribe romantic feelings to it.

Maybe there might have been something there before she dies but I would say it’s overridden by CT following the return of his memory.

And in Rebirth specifically, he feels more romantically interested in Tifa even before that.

 

[Empyrea]

I don’t understand why people see C&A as having a deeply spiritual bond.

You and me both. Sorta. I understand it in the sense that it seems like that's what the story wants to convey. Whether or not it came across seems to differ from one person to another. To you and me, it didn't.

For me, personally, while I see there were times Cloud does comfort Aerith, Aerith never quite had the chance to reciprocate. Hell, in OG, she tells him to leave everything to her and take care of himself...without ever knowing exactly what was wrong with him, just that something is. Honestly, even the dream date seems like it's more for Aerith than for both of them.

Also, while you can read that Cloud is being vulnerable around Aerith, I read it as more him just being socially awkward in general. He's 16 mentally and trying to be cool but failing. That's it. Vulnerability and awkwardness are two different things, after all. But that might just be me.

 

[Fakewings_]

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

Most of the details you listed, 3/4 of them are lack of proactiveness from C. And in a relationship when the woman always takes the lead and is the one being proactive, it truly is a disadvantage.
About skinship, I believe that just within the Remake alone, C & T have had unnecessary physical contact many times, and it carries a much greater sense of intimacy. To compare: the scene where C hugs T while jumping off the train is shown in a close-up and detailed shot, while the scene where C hugs A after falling at the ToA is only briefly shown from C’s blurred perspective.
The bone between C & A is truly admirable. Isn’t it true that our lives become more vibrant when we have someone with positive energy by our side? But for me, it hasn’t reached the level of depth that many people praise it has

 

[Shadowstorm]

Well Cloud is often vulnerable around Aerith (and Tifa) often while having an episode, this might be out of his control, but doesn't change the fact that they are there for him, often holding his hand, with gentle words, or watching over him while he rests.

In terms of heart to hearts I think Cloud wanted to over Zack but couldn't have a serious discussion there for obvious reasons. Some things they just couldn't push too far on at that stage of the game.

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

While I do like Clerith's bond a lot (hell, after you I'm probably the person here most invested in them) I do have to argue the other side a bit here too. Cloud's episodes are completely involuntary and happen regardless of who is around him, we just see it with the girls more because they're the other two leads, it's not a show of trust from Cloud in either case, and there's never a scene where he actually talks to Aerith about them(again because she doesn't push, which I really do think is something he appreciates about her)

The beach scene and the water tower scenes are lovely, but they do drive home the point that it's mostly Aerith confiding in Cloud rather than the other way around. It's especially obvious in Nibelheim, like they're at the source of Cloud's greatest trauma, but the conversation is about how jealous and lonely Aerith is? I'm not knocking her I find this aspect of her character fascinating and consider it one of the main things keeping her from being a cliche, but I do think it's very telling about her as a character and about their relationship. Cloud clearly doesn't mind though and was happy to listen to her because he does care about her.

With things like keeping a tally of how many times they hold hands I think you have to look closer at the context for each of them. Like how many of those handholds were actually the two of them reaching out and how many times was it just Aerith tugging Cloud along? The latter kind is great if you're already invested but does very little to convince people that don't have an existing interest in the ship.

Things like taking pictures during that side quest are really cute though, and do make clear he enjoys being around her. I just think people do have a point when they say there is a level of closeness lacking from what is shown in their relationship, even if I do buy them having some kind of a special bond personally

Airship. I mention this one because the rewards are more powerful the sooner you get them and if you do the sidequest when it first becomes available, you get an extra reward (The cave, irritatingly, requires three total trips to complete. One for the sidequest, one to go on a different path that's mutually exclusive with getting the sidequest, and one to come back and progress the sidequest and get the partial quest rewards)

Backtrack thy name is Final Fantasy! But thanks, I'll be sure to do that as soon as I get my ride back.

 

[Xannis]

If you don't understand then you're not going to, even JP streamers who ship CT say lover tie when CA are standing back to back with fingers intertwined at the end of the game.

I completely understand viewing a lot of CA interactions/scenes as potentially romantic including that one. I can also see the "they're just close friends" argument. What I can't wrap my head around is that feeling persisting past the point in the story where:

• You learn 1/2 of the potential couple was mind fucked for 100% of his time with the other half.
• 1/2 of the potential couple died.
• After the death of the aforementioned 1/2 the other half doesn't seem as distraught over it as a "soul mate" would.
• After the mind fuckery in bullet 1 was fixed the now un-fucked half tells a different woman that he really always just loved her.

When the conversation starts to go down this path I just feel like I'm talking about Harry Potter or Hunger Games. Are there points where you can say that Harry/Hermoine and Katniss/Gale have romantic themed scenes together? Of course. Does it ultimately impact who they end up with? Nope.

 

[Ryeleigh]

You and me both. Sorta. I understand it in the sense that it seems like that's what the story wants to convey. Whether or not it came across seems to differ from one person to another. To you and me, it didn't.

For me, personally, while I see there were times Cloud does comfort Aerith, Aerith never quite had the chance to reciprocate. Hell, in OG, she tells him to leave everything to her and take care of himself...without ever knowing exactly what was wrong with him, just that something is. Honestly, even the dream date seems like it's more for Aerith than for both of them.

Also, while you can read that Cloud is being vulnerable around Aerith, I read it as more him just being socially awkward in general. He's 16 mentally and trying to be cool but failing. That's it. Vulnerability and awkwardness are two different things, after all. But that might just be me.

I think I'm also kinda reluctant to say that Cloud is vulnerable around Aerith? I mean, isn't Tifa's raison d'être that she's the only one Cloud opens his heart to and wasn't it even a dev quote?

Or maybe it's more like, yes, Cloud is often vulnerable around all the party members because he's a vulnerable character in a difficult, precarious situation, but the only one he's opened up to is Tifa? I actually had a thought about this while watching Rebirth but I totally forgot what it was, lmao.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think I'm also kinda reluctant to say that Cloud is vulnerable around Aerith? I mean, isn't Tifa's raison d'être that she's the only one Cloud opens his heart to and wasn't it even a dev quote?

Or maybe it's more like, yes, Cloud is often vulnerable around all the party members because he's a vulnerable character in a difficult, precarious situation, but the only one he's opened up to is Tifa? I actually had a thought about this while watching Rebirth but I totally forgot what it was, lmao.

Yeah, he’s also only opened up about the “degradation” to Tifa. Aerith has essentially deduced that issue on her own but Cloud has never confided about it to her.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Yeah, he’s also only opened up about the “degradation” to Tifa. Aerith has essentially deduced that issue on her own but Cloud has never confided about it to her.

Unless Aerith heard it from Tifa from their "behind the scenes" talks .

 

[Eerie]

All Cloud's intimates conversation, about his identity trouble, but also about how he felt, were with Tifa. Most happened in bedrooms for that very reason, it's to push the feeling of "intimate conversation".

Tifa gets to know a side of Cloud others don't, because he only opens up in front of her, in situations where they're only the two of them. And he always say "we'll talk more about it later" because he wants to continue those intimate conversations with her. Only her opinion counts.

 

[GamerSkull]

Unless Aerith heard it from Tifa from their "behind the scenes" talks .

Maybe. But Tifa seems to want to protect as much of Cloud’s image to the rest of the party as possible. This is why she tells him not to speak about Zack’s “death” to Aerith so she can do it instead. And to keep it between the two of them.

She probably sugarcoats what is happening to him because she doesn’t want the others to see him badly.

 

[Shadowstorm]

So, I just started up FF9 since EC enlightened me to the fact that it has pirate vibes, and I feel like I'm looking at Tifa Lockhart's younger sister? Just how many times did they re-use that design? I know they kind of peaked with her but damn.

 

[GamerSkull]

So, I just started up FF9 since EC enlightened me to the fact that it has pirate vibes, and I feel like I'm looking at Tifa Lockhart's younger sister? Just how many times did they re-use that design? I know they kind of peaked with her but damn.

Yeah… Tifa, Rinoa, and Garnet have a lot of physical similarities. I hope you enjoy FFIX, it’s my second favorite after FFVII and FFX (tied for first).

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, Nomura was very fond of that design, no kidding.

In other news, there was a talk with Hamaguchi and Kitase at the Saudi event, and they confirmed:

• Aerith is dead, and her death was done that way to show how Cloud reacts when he loses a loved one;
• more Tifa next part: we'll explore more aspects of her character as a strong and powerful character;
• maybe she'll suplex, they're not sure;
• they told us to look forward her synergy attacks with Cid and Vincent (who will of course be playable);
• they understand the fans' expectations for her role at this point of the story (do they though lmao).

Also commented on how she's the most popular character in Saudi (well they upped her figurine prices and they still sold out on first day so...) and how popular she is in general (you wouldn't believe it, seeing their post Rebirth PR).

At least it does feel that they're going to focus a lot more on Tifa, not only for "her game" which I expected, but also for PR. I didn't expect them to talk that much about her tbh.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah… Tifa, Rinoa, and Garnet have a lot of physical similarities. I hope you enjoy FFIX, it’s my second favorite after FFVII and FFX (tied for first).

It'll probably get a top spot for me as well just for the vibes. Put pirates in anything and part of my thought process is just gonna be my inner 8 year old cheering and clapping. I'm a simple girl depending on how much they let miss princess cut loose over the course of the story it might end up tied for first place with 7

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, apparently Kitase kept calling Aerith "taisetsu na hito" to Cloud, again even if you don't see it romantically Cloud clearly has incredibly powerful important bonds with Zack, Aerith and Tifa.

I believe they said it before, about how before what happened was sudden/unexpected, but this time more about having a hard time letting go.

 

[GamerSkull]

The Lifestream Sequence is probably my most anticipated moment in Part 3. I’m also excited for the Weapon stuff at Junon and Midgar.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, I just started up FF9 since EC enlightened me to the fact that it has pirate vibes, and I feel like I'm looking at Tifa Lockhart's younger sister? Just how many times did they re-use that design? I know they kind of peaked with her but damn.

There's a reason I joke Tifa is Nomura's favorite design. I'd argue he returns to the well one more time with Lulu and maybe Payne.

Yeah, apparently Kitase kept calling Aerith "taisetsu na hito" to Cloud, again even if you don't see it romantically Cloud clearly has incredibly powerful important bonds with Zack, Aerith and Tifa.

I believe they said it before, about how before what happened was sudden/unexpected, but this time more about having a hard time letting go.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that they do not have a bond (The poster who said things like that is ESL and also compared them to Ichiruki which is a very strong non romantic bond as well) or that Aerith isn't important or precious to Cloud. It's just there are different types of precious and Aerith is with Zack as hito or mono, never josei.

 

[GamerSkull]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that they do not have a bond (The poster who said things like that is ESL and also compared them to Ichiruki which is a very strong non romantic bond as well) or that Aerith isn't important or precious to Cloud. It's just there are different types of precious and Aerith is with Zack as hito or mono, never josei.

Yeah, it’s kinda like Cody said… you can have meaningful relationships without it being sexualized (blanket statement for romance/attraction in general). His bond with Aerith is strong, just not necessarily romantic.