SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

See, I still don't understand this either. The two choices are then:

1. Aerith is alone, unrequited as Cloud ends up with Tifa

2. Aerith is at least with someone she loves and is happy, even if Cloud has chosen another woman.

So Aerith being completely alone is preferable to Aerith being with Zack? Why?

Or is it that they just have clung to a specific passage in Maiden, and have completely blocked out the rest of it? Because then they can say Aerith loved Cloud more and CA is still possible...

This seems to always be a recurring theme in a lot of what I see. They present arguments that they don't realize also apply to themselves (Aerith can move on but Cloud cannot, etc) or they want the story to change (Aerith being alive) even though, in their mind, CA is canon in the original game and Cloud and Aerith reunite in the Lifestream. But also once again, it seems like they want Aerith alive for shipping reasons, so the story being changed doesn't apply to Zack coming back to life as well. Okay, but they want Aerith to be in the Lifestream sequence, but claim that it's not a romantic scene between Cloud and Tifa. Same for Under the Highwind.

Those are just some examples of many that I've found where the logic doesn't quite make a whole lot of sense. There are just holes and double-standards.


Honestly, this makes both Aerith and Cloud out to be horrible people in that they will take advantage of another's feelings for them. But Zack is a horrible cheater because he once asked Cissnei out to dinner. It's okay for Cloud to kiss another woman out of jealousy... but fuck Zack for having peak rizz.

Once again, the logic is amazing. /s

There is no hope for this fandom. The salt for Part 3 is gonna be intense.

To be honest, I don't think there is any sort of logic to it. I mean, if non-canon shippers who insisted that their ship is totally canon had logic to it, they probably wouldn't insist that it's a totally canon thing and instead just enjoyed it? So their interpretations are more like whatever scores them a point even if the point doesn't make sense or contradicts another point?

It truly is fascinating how all non-canon shippers who insist on the canonicity of their ship have exactly the same arguments and behaviours.

What I am curious about is the insistence that Cloud must have (had) romantic feelings for Aerith? I mean, aside from shipping, what would those romantic feelings add to the story specifically? Nothing would change? Aerith would still die, Cloud would still declare another woman the proof of his existence, and then he'd go on to live with that woman? And this is going to sound bad, but even if Cloud did have specifically romantic feelings for Aerith, obviously they weren't important enough to garner any sort of mention in or outside the game?

So I'm just curious, aside from validation, what would it add to the story?

 

[GamerSkull]

Quick question: At the end of Advent Children Complete since it cuts the Aer credits cameo, can it be sure to say that she and Zack returned to the planet as in dissolve from the Livestream. What makes CA's think Cloud reunites with her since she is no longer there?

There is no indication that Cloud and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream and lived happily ever after.

People get it from the line Cloud says at the end of the game where he says he can meet her there (at the Promised Land). But I think that line is just meant to say that "Even if we die, we'll still see our loved ones so we don't have to be afraid." He specifically talks about Aerith here but as a whole, he just means everybody that he and the others have lost.

There is no reason Tifa would be inviting herself to that reunion if Cloud was implying a romantic reunion. If the devs intended it to mean that, they wouldn't have had Tifa saying "Let's go see her."

 

[Reaper3Delta]

There is no indication that Cloud and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream and lived happily ever after.

People get it from the line Cloud says at the end of the game where he says he can meet her there (at the Promised Land). But I think that line is just meant to say that "Even if we die, we'll still see our loved ones so we don't have to be afraid." He specifically talks about Aerith here but as a whole, he just means everybody that he and the others have lost.

There is no reason Tifa would be inviting herself to that reunion if Cloud was implying a romantic reunion. If the devs intended it to mean that, they wouldn't have had Tifa saying "Let's go see her."

I know that, I meant something else but decided to disregard what i wrote, i won't bother with CA logic since there is none.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah aside from runny egg metaphors and a stiff translation (which TurquoiseHammer did a great job of polishing up recently), I never had a problem with Maiden. Hell, I prefer Maiden’s non-Advent Childrenized lore over ReTrilogy’s. The personalities of the side characters do feel dated now though.

I mean, it was written 20 years ago before most of the characters got fleshed out, so yeah.

I've never actually fully read Maiden, and I probably won't considering its canonical status but from what I hear of it, it's still assumes endgame Cloti so I don't really understand why it's so heavily used by CA fans.

Aerith is on screen, so it's a win for the ship, regardless of content.

Probably because it "discredits" Zerith.

Though, from what I remember, Aerith tried to think about what she loved about Cloud which summoned Zack, they spent a bit of time hate-flirting, and it ended with Cloud and Tifa going back to the real world, and implying Zack and Aerith getting along again in the future.

People who have read it more recently can correct me, though.

Yeah, Aerith trying to think of everything that made Cloud 'Cloud' in an attempt to help him recover his mind calls up... Zack. She then watches as Tifa is the one to restore Cloud's mind and is envious of her getting to 'live' with him in the living world.

There is no indication that Cloud and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream and lived happily ever after.

People get it from the line Cloud says at the end of the game where he says he can meet her there (at the Promised Land). But I think that line is just meant to say that "Even if we die, we'll still see our loved ones so we don't have to be afraid." He specifically talks about Aerith here but as a whole, he just means everybody that he and the others have lost.

There is no reason Tifa would be inviting herself to that reunion if Cloud was implying a romantic reunion. If the devs intended it to mean that, they wouldn't have had Tifa saying "Let's go see her."

He doesn't even actually specify a 'her' there in the original line. Or himself specifically. Both would have to be inferred from content. What he says is roughly "think can meet" with no specified subject or object of the sentence. As he's talking to Tifa and the conversation is about lost loved ones, we makes even more sense than "I" especially given Tifa's affirmative nod, smile, and response of "yes, let's"

 

[Empyrea]

What I am curious about is the insistence that Cloud must have (had) romantic feelings for Aerith? I mean, aside from shipping, what would those romantic feelings add to the story specifically? Nothing would change? Aerith would still die, Cloud would still declare another woman the proof of his existence, and then he'd go on to live with that woman? And this is going to sound bad, but even if Cloud did have specifically romantic feelings for Aerith, obviously they weren't important enough to garner any sort of mention in or outside the game?

So I'm just curious, aside from validation, what would it add to the story?

I'm also curious about this. The official timeline is 2 or 3 weeks, right? Aerith's around for half of it at best, and it's during the time when Cloud is emotionally unavailable (as was she, really).

Ngl, if Cloud fell in love with Aerith during that time, the Lifestream Scene (and UTH by extention) happening later...kinda feels a lot less heartwarming and cheap, like it's a trick to make the story less dreary. I always stayed on the side that for the story to make complete sense, Cloud can't have fallen in love in Aerith (or vice versa -- I swear, people seem to think moving on is as simple as flipping a switch) given the circumstances and because the LSS and UTH are too intimate. It's not impossible, granted, but boy did Cloud not even think on the fact that he fell in love with one girl then remembered being in love for a long time with another if that's the case. One would think a scene where he wrestles with that and sorts out his feelings would be helpful to add.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm also curious about this. The official timeline is 2 or 3 weeks, right? Aerith's around for half of it at best, and it's during the time when Cloud is emotionally unavailable (as was she, really).

Ngl, if Cloud fell in love with Aerith during that time, the Lifestream Scene (and UTH by extention) happening later...kinda feels a lot less heartwarming and cheap, like it's a trick to make the story less dreary. I always stayed on the side that for the story to make complete sense, Cloud can't have fallen in love in Aerith (or vice versa -- I swear, people seem to think moving on is as simple as flipping a switch) given the circumstances and because the LSS and UTH are too intimate. It's not impossible, granted, but boy did Cloud not even think on the fact that he fell in love with one girl then remembered being in love for a long time with another if that's the case. One would think a scene where he wrestles with that and sorts out his feelings would be helpful to add.

The official timeline is about six or seven weeks total (Dec 9th to some time in the latter third of January, so Jan 31st at the absolute latest), Aerith is around for roughly two, maybe three of those, as she definitely dies before the turn of the new year, and there's a week gap in the middle of the game after the Northern Crater when Tifa's in a Coma.

And while it's possible to fall in love with someone quickly, you're right that the narrative doesn't reflect that with an examination of it once he gets himself back. That's a large part of why CA has tried to downplay or erase the idea that Cloud is still in love with Tifa despite it being a major part of the narrative.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I'm also curious about this. The official timeline is 2 or 3 weeks, right? Aerith's around for half of it at best, and it's during the time when Cloud is emotionally unavailable (as was she, really).

Ngl, if Cloud fell in love with Aerith during that time, the Lifestream Scene (and UTH by extention) happening later...kinda feels a lot less heartwarming and cheap, like it's a trick to make the story less dreary. I always stayed on the side that for the story to make complete sense, Cloud can't have fallen in love in Aerith (or vice versa -- I swear, people seem to think moving on is as simple as flipping a switch) given the circumstances and because the LSS and UTH are too intimate. It's not impossible, granted, but boy did Cloud not even think on the fact that he fell in love with one girl then remembered being in love for a long time with another if that's the case. One would think a scene where he wrestles with that and sorts out his feelings would be helpful to add.

Well, I always thought that Aerith started to untangle the whole "my ex-boyfriend in you" during/after the Gold Saucer date. And Cloud, well, wasn't exactly there to get it. And then Aerith died, what, a couple of days later? And then Cloud declared that only Tifa's opinion matters and that Tifa was the proof of his existence. Not to mention that she basically lives rent-free in Cloud's core.

The thing is, the people who downplay CT like to say that if SE can confirm chocobos getting it on, they could confirm CT too with a very special press release. But that argument applies to CA too? Like, where exactly in or outside the game has SE ever confirmed romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith? As far as I know, nowhere? And you would think that if Cloud had fallen in love with Aerith that would, like, garner some kind of introspection post her death or post Lifestream?

But often these people also unironically think that Cloud wanted to be a hero because of his crush on Sephiroth so... you may make of that what you will, lol.

I MEAN: "Let me invite you to a famous date spot, Tifa, so I can tell you all about my crush on Sephiroth before I leave town. What's that, let's make a promise that ties our pasts and futures together? Eh, fine, but only because you insist and I'm so nice."

Everyone is entitled to their interpretations but by the time your interpretation is shared only with a handful of other people, if that, maybe it's time to start wondering if you're wrong, lol?

 

[GamerSkull]

Aerith is on screen, so it's a win for the ship, regardless of content.

It still doesn’t make sense. The only thing I can see is that they are selective within even a single piece of the work. Like perhaps they think one chapter of Maiden is canon and another isn’t.

It wouldn’t surprise me considering their other takes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, I always thought that Aerith started to untangle the whole "my ex-boyfriend in you" during/after the Gold Saucer date. And Cloud, well, wasn't exactly there to get it. And then Aerith died, what, a couple of days later? And then Cloud declared that only Tifa's opinion matters and that Tifa was the proof of his existence. Not to mention that she basically lives rent-free in Cloud's core.

Depending on how long Cloud is out cold between ToTA and the final chapter, maybe just two.

The thing is, the people who downplay CT like to say that if SE can confirm chocobos getting it on, they could confirm CT too with a very special press release. But that argument applies to CA too? Like, where exactly in or outside the game has SE ever confirmed romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith? As far as I know, nowhere? And you would think that if Cloud had fallen in love with Aerith that would, like, garner some kind of introspection post her death or post Lifestream?

You absolutely would, but they say that the bit at the end where Cloud is talking about what he and Tifa can do if they don't make it out of the crater alive is him declaring his eternal love for Aerith.

But often these people also unironically think that Cloud wanted to be a hero because of his crush on Sephiroth so... you may make of that what you will, lol.

I MEAN: "Let me invite you to a famous date spot, Tifa, so I can tell you all about my crush on Sephiroth before I leave town. What's that, let's make a promise that ties our pasts and futures together? Eh, fine, but only because you insist and I'm so nice."

Everyone is entitled to their interpretations but by the time your interpretation is shared only with a handful of other people, if that, maybe it's time to start wondering if you're wrong, lol?

And when the official tie in novellas are starting to get so explicit about Cloud doing it "of his own free will" to "become a special existence to Tifa" you definitely need to consider that you're wrong.

It still doesn’t make sense. The only thing I can see is that they are selective within even a single piece of the work. Like perhaps they think one chapter of Maiden is canon and another isn’t.

It wouldn’t surprise me considering their other takes.

You're ironically giving it too much thought. They're not being selective, they're being "Aerith is on screen it is a win" and not paying any attention to what is going on either in tone or voice. Aerith must be winning because they want her to be winning.

 

[Ryeleigh]

You absolutely would, but they say that the bit at the end where Cloud is talking about what he and Tifa can do if they don't make it out of the crater alive is him declaring his eternal love for Aerith.

Ah, yes. That bit of dialogue with absolutely no pronouns in the original Japanese, lol?

And when the official tie in novellas are starting to get so explicit about Cloud doing it "of his own free will" to "become a special existence to Tifa" you definitely need to consider that you're wrong.

But the official novellas are bad, don't you know? So they're not canon. To be honest, I consider this proprietary attitude towards FF7 OG a bit weird. But then, if they denounce everything but FF7 and their interpretation of FF7 is only shared by a handful of other people, I guess it would make them feel smarter than the "sheeple"? I don't know.

 

[Shadowfox]

What I am curious about is the insistence that Cloud must have (had) romantic feelings for Aerith?

From what I've seen, I think some of this insistence is from the old statement describing Cloud as a hero who was "wavering between two heroines", which some have taken to mean that his feelings have to be romantic in order to waver between them.

Frankly, there've been a lot of reasons/excuses/misconceptions thrown about over the decades for why Cloud must love Aerith, including taking account of the colour of their clothes, their character classes, or appealing to some obscure Japanese cultural thing or sentiment. A few early arguments have even used Tifa's body proportions to claim that she's not morally pure enough to be a love interest for Cloud.

 

[pxl_pushr]

From what I've seen, I think some of this insistence is from the old statement describing Cloud as a hero who was "wavering between two heroines", which some have taken to mean that his feelings have to be romantic in order to waver between them.

Frankly, there've been a lot of reasons/excuses/misconceptions thrown about over the decades for why Cloud must love Aerith, including taking account of the colour of their clothes, their character classes, or appealing to some obscure Japanese cultural thing or sentiment. A few early arguments have even used Tifa's body proportions to claim that she's not morally pure enough to be a love interest for Cloud.

From what I’ve gathered, it’s a result of having player input in Cloud’s feelings in OG and ( less so imo ) Remake/Rebirth. Because he’s so cagey with his thoughts/emotions it’s easy to project onto him when before we had such direct influence on him.

The curious thing is that people don’t make the connection between Cloud having multiple people inside of him, not knowing where they end and he begins, and the player having multiple choice options.

YOU the player are a voice in his head. That’s why things are much more definitive once Cloud can speak for himself, as himself, and the lines become more clear.

How they handle that ReTrilogy is anyone’s guess, but I don’t doubt they’ll use every tool in the war chest to beat you over the head.

 

[Ryeleigh]

From what I've seen, I think some of this insistence is from the old statement describing Cloud as a hero who was "wavering between two heroines", which some have taken to mean that his feelings have to be romantic in order to waver between them.

I don't read/watch a lot of harems but I've gathered from the ones I have read/watched is that the main character can waver without any feelings involved, lol. Usually because in harems the MC has the personality of a wet noodle, lol.

Frankly, there've been a lot of reasons/excuses/misconceptions thrown about over the decades for why Cloud must love Aerith, including taking account of the colour of their clothes, their character classes, or appealing to some obscure Japanese cultural thing or sentiment. A few early arguments have even used Tifa's body proportions to claim that she's not morally pure enough to be a love interest for Cloud.

You know, I think everyone is entitled to their interpretations, and people's responses to fiction don't say anything about their real-life morals, but that last sentence... Yikes.

 

[Empyrea]

I don't read/watch a lot of harems but I've gathered from the ones I have read/watched is that the main character can waver without any feelings involved, lol. Usually because in harems the MC has the personality of a wet noodle, lol.

That's an insult to wet noodles.
Then again, I'm still of the opinion that Cloud in the OG had the personality of a wet noodle until after LSS, so...

The curious thing is that people don’t make the connection between Cloud having multiple people inside of him, not knowing where they end and he begins, and the player having multiple choice options.

YOU the player are a voice in his head. That’s why things are much more definitive once Cloud can speak for himself, as himself, and the lines become more clear.

So they didn't even notice that Cloud's responses are different from whatever option you picked even way back then? It wasn't a dead giveaway by any means, but it did stand out in that most other games would have the player character say the option you picked 1:1.

A few early arguments have even used Tifa's body proportions to claim that she's not morally pure enough to be a love interest for Cloud.

I've heard that sentiment enough growing up (and it wasn't directed at me). It was degrading then and it's still the same now. Christ, these people.

 

[pxl_pushr]

That's an insult to wet noodles.
Then again, I'm still of the opinion that Cloud in the OG had the personality of a wet noodle until after LSS, so...


So they didn't even notice that Cloud's responses are different from whatever option you picked even way back then? It wasn't a dead giveaway by any means, but it did stand out in that most other games would have the player character say the option you picked 1:1.


I've heard that sentiment enough growing up (and it wasn't directed at me). It was degrading then and it's still the same now. Christ, these people.

Not very many people do from what I’ve seen, or they disregard its significance since other games that let you pick can sometimes pull the same trick with no meta importance. It’s a common complaint for BioWare games, for example.

How FF7 uses the optional mechanics to push/reinforce the story and audience participation is actually worth studying from a development perspective. The more I’ve thought about it, the more I’ve placed FF7 in a similar category as Bioshock, Metal Gear Solid series, and other games that poke the 4th wall without always directly talking to the player.

 

[null]

Frankly, there've been a lot of reasons/excuses/misconceptions thrown about over the decades for why Cloud must love Aerith, including taking account of the colour of their clothes, their character classes, or appealing to some obscure Japanese cultural thing or sentiment. A few early arguments have even used Tifa's body proportions to claim that she's not morally pure enough to be a love interest for Cloud.

After consuming an ungodly amount of anime/manga when the world shut down in 2020, I feel like I understand these fans better. As it turns out, anime watchers can safely turn off their brains most of the time. Throw a dart at a random story with multiple love interests while knowing nothing about the actual plot, and you can still guess the "winner" 80% of the time based off tropes, character design and the front cover.

Now that I know what a Cherry Blossom Girl is, I can see why they're so fixated on Aerith's floral theme, symbolism and Japanese culture. Throw in First Girl Wins, Bodyguard Crush and White Magician Girl and in most other stories, her romance armor would be more powerful than Great Gospel. Thanks to Advent Children we know that Her Death Was Only The Beginning leading to the opportunity for Eternal Love.

Meanwhile Zack is a Romantic False Lead and Tifa also gets forced into less flattering tropes, as if they're trying to bind evil spirits. She gets played up as Clingy Jealous Girl as well as Fanservice Character, which combined with the Highwind scene spells her doom because you Can't Act Perverted Toward A Love Interest. There's also the angle that she's Loving A Shadow claiming she never knew the "real" Cloud, or In Love With Being In Love if you squint hard at the Promise. And while the Childhood Friend Romance is a common trope, it's a bit of a crapshoot really with no guarantee of a Relationship Upgrade.

Some argue that Japanese tastes aren't obvious to western fans, and I've found that to be true to an extent. Example: I never understood why kuuderes are so popular, but apparently there's a reason Rei Ayanami's been cloned (heh) in a million other shows. Of course this has also been weaponized by gatekeepers who insist Japanese fans are the true audience and Tifa just isn't appealing to them because... black color scheme represents the number 4 or <insert some other Destiny Fulfilled explanation here>.

Tropes and framing exist for a reason, and I don't think most fans are delusional idiots. The problem is that writers know how we think, and the only way to surprise us is to subvert our expections. That's exactly what FFVII does. The tropes that were set up all get blown sky high. After the second act all bets are off, and we shouldn't be letting symbolism and expectations based on past experience do the heavy lifting. We should be saying: whoa, I didn't see that coming, now I'm awake and engaged and retracing my steps. Just who the hell is this Cloud Strife guy, really? And the way the Lifestream scene pays it all off is brilliant. But not everyone wants their expectations subverted, or to analyze FFVII like it's literature or film. They want escapism, a story with confident badass like Disc 1 Cloud, choices that matter, and a romance based on what they're already used to.

 

[Shadowstorm]

After consuming an ungodly amount of anime/manga when the world shut down in 2020, I feel like I understand these fans better. As it turns out, anime watchers can safely turn off their brains most of the time. Throw a dart at a random story with multiple love interests while knowing nothing about the actual plot, and you can still guess the "winner" 80% of the time based off tropes, character design and the front cover.

Now that I know what a Cherry Blossom Girl is, I can see why they're so fixated on Aerith's floral theme, symbolism and Japanese culture. Throw in First Girl Wins, Bodyguard Crush and White Magician Girl and in most other stories, her romance armor would be more powerful than Great Gospel. Thanks to Advent Children we know that Her Death Was Only The Beginning leading to the opportunity for Eternal Love.

Meanwhile Zack is a Romantic False Lead and Tifa also gets forced into less flattering tropes, as if they're trying to bind evil spirits. She gets played up as Clingy Jealous Girl as well as Fanservice Character, which combined with the Highwind scene spells her doom because you Can't Act Perverted Toward A Love Interest. There's also the angle that she's Loving A Shadow claiming she never knew the "real" Cloud, or In Love With Being In Love if you squint hard at the Promise. And while the Childhood Friend Romance is a common trope, it's a bit of a crapshoot really with no guarantee of a Relationship Upgrade.

Some argue that Japanese tastes aren't obvious to western fans, and I've found that to be true to an extent. Example: I never understood why kuuderes are so popular, but apparently there's a reason Rei Ayanami's been cloned (heh) in a million other shows. Of course this has also been weaponized by gatekeepers who insist Japanese fans are the true audience and Tifa just isn't appealing to them because... black color scheme represents the number 4 or <insert some other Destiny Fulfilled explanation here>.

Tropes and framing exist for a reason, and I don't think most fans are delusional idiots. The problem is that writers know how we think, and the only way to surprise us is to subvert our expections. That's exactly what FFVII does. The tropes that were set up all get blown sky high. After the second act all bets are off, and we shouldn't be letting symbolism and expectations based on past experience do the heavy lifting. We should be saying: whoa, I didn't see that coming, now I'm awake and engaged and retracing my steps. Just who the hell is this Cloud Strife guy, really? And the way the Lifestream scene pays it all off is brilliant. But not everyone wants their expectations subverted, or to analyze FFVII like it's literature or film. They want escapism, a story with confident badass like Disc 1 Cloud, choices that matter, and a romance based on what they're already used to.

Perfectly said. I'm not too well-versed in anime myself, but even with western tropes Clerith is set up hard in disc 1. When I played that I didn't care for the romance, or Cloud as a character for that matter, at all but I still was very convinced the game was setting him up with Aerith. The shippersbaren't building the set-up there out of their asses.

The reason I personally got into Cloti is because it pulls the rug out from under you. The LSS forces you to consider the rest of the game in a whole new light precisely because the first half of the game doesn't make you think Tifa is the love interest. For someone like me,who cares little for the typical tropes used for Clerith, it did a fantastic job adding nuance and depth in a way that was hard to do with the technical limitations at the time, but for people who do fall hook line and sinker it's far too easy to just ignore those revelations and keep taking the tropes at face value.

 

[Ryushikaze]

After consuming an ungodly amount of anime/manga when the world shut down in 2020, I feel like I understand these fans better. As it turns out, anime watchers can safely turn off their brains most of the time. Throw a dart at a random story with multiple love interests while knowing nothing about the actual plot, and you can still guess the "winner" 80% of the time based off tropes, character design and the front cover.

Now that I know what a Cherry Blossom Girl is, I can see why they're so fixated on Aerith's floral theme, symbolism and Japanese culture. Throw in First Girl Wins, Bodyguard Crush and White Magician Girl and in most other stories, her romance armor would be more powerful than Great Gospel. Thanks to Advent Children we know that Her Death Was Only The Beginning leading to the opportunity for Eternal Love.

Meanwhile Zack is a Romantic False Lead and Tifa also gets forced into less flattering tropes, as if they're trying to bind evil spirits. She gets played up as Clingy Jealous Girl as well as Fanservice Character, which combined with the Highwind scene spells her doom because you Can't Act Perverted Toward A Love Interest. There's also the angle that she's Loving A Shadow claiming she never knew the "real" Cloud, or In Love With Being In Love if you squint hard at the Promise. And while the Childhood Friend Romance is a common trope, it's a bit of a crapshoot really with no guarantee of a Relationship Upgrade.

Some argue that Japanese tastes aren't obvious to western fans, and I've found that to be true to an extent. Example: I never understood why kuuderes are so popular, but apparently there's a reason Rei Ayanami's been cloned (heh) in a million other shows. Of course this has also been weaponized by gatekeepers who insist Japanese fans are the true audience and Tifa just isn't appealing to them because... black color scheme represents the number 4 or <insert some other Destiny Fulfilled explanation here>.

Tropes and framing exist for a reason, and I don't think most fans are delusional idiots. The problem is that writers know how we think, and the only way to surprise us is to subvert our expections. That's exactly what FFVII does. The tropes that were set up all get blown sky high. After the second act all bets are off, and we shouldn't be letting symbolism and expectations based on past experience do the heavy lifting. We should be saying: whoa, I didn't see that coming, now I'm awake and engaged and retracing my steps. Just who the hell is this Cloud Strife guy, really? And the way the Lifestream scene pays it all off is brilliant. But not everyone wants their expectations subverted, or to analyze FFVII like it's literature or film. They want escapism, a story with confident badass like Disc 1 Cloud, choices that matter, and a romance based on what they're already used to.

While much of that isn't wrong, there are also plenty of tropes and narrative pathways that point to Tifa early on as well. The point of the first disc isn't specifically to mislead you in one direction or the other, but to continually misdirect you with all of them. It throws so much information at you that signal is almost impossible to distinguish from noise.

The problem then is that of people are not delusional, but what they are is obstinate. They guessed one thing, and they are very sore about guessing wrong.

 

[Empyrea]

There's also that plenty of anime almost seems to promote unhealthy relationships. The main guy is a jerk but is soft and gentle towards the main girl? Squee material. The main girl will fix him! Funny enough, more and more anime that go against the grain harems and romcoms set have been popping up lately.

I think what people seem to forget is that those types tend to also be meant as wish-fulfillment. They don't really have themes, or really, much of anything to say. In most of those anime, character development is also non-existent. Or it could be the inverse -- the change happens almost instantly, at least for maybe for a few episodes.

To compare FF7 to those feels so...wrong. And that's not even going into people being so stubborn as to refuse to accept they fell for a red herring, which is what that trope is designed to do.

 

[Ryeleigh]

After consuming an ungodly amount of anime/manga when the world shut down in 2020, I feel like I understand these fans better. As it turns out, anime watchers can safely turn off their brains most of the time. Throw a dart at a random story with multiple love interests while knowing nothing about the actual plot, and you can still guess the "winner" 80% of the time based off tropes, character design and the front cover.

Now that I know what a Cherry Blossom Girl is, I can see why they're so fixated on Aerith's floral theme, symbolism and Japanese culture. Throw in First Girl Wins, Bodyguard Crush and White Magician Girl and in most other stories, her romance armor would be more powerful than Great Gospel. Thanks to Advent Children we know that Her Death Was Only The Beginning leading to the opportunity for Eternal Love.

Meanwhile Zack is a Romantic False Lead and Tifa also gets forced into less flattering tropes, as if they're trying to bind evil spirits. She gets played up as Clingy Jealous Girl as well as Fanservice Character, which combined with the Highwind scene spells her doom because you Can't Act Perverted Toward A Love Interest. There's also the angle that she's Loving A Shadow claiming she never knew the "real" Cloud, or In Love With Being In Love if you squint hard at the Promise. And while the Childhood Friend Romance is a common trope, it's a bit of a crapshoot really with no guarantee of a Relationship Upgrade.

Some argue that Japanese tastes aren't obvious to western fans, and I've found that to be true to an extent. Example: I never understood why kuuderes are so popular, but apparently there's a reason Rei Ayanami's been cloned (heh) in a million other shows. Of course this has also been weaponized by gatekeepers who insist Japanese fans are the true audience and Tifa just isn't appealing to them because... black color scheme represents the number 4 or <insert some other Destiny Fulfilled explanation here>.

Tropes and framing exist for a reason, and I don't think most fans are delusional idiots. The problem is that writers know how we think, and the only way to surprise us is to subvert our expections. That's exactly what FFVII does. The tropes that were set up all get blown sky high. After the second act all bets are off, and we shouldn't be letting symbolism and expectations based on past experience do the heavy lifting. We should be saying: whoa, I didn't see that coming, now I'm awake and engaged and retracing my steps. Just who the hell is this Cloud Strife guy, really? And the way the Lifestream scene pays it all off is brilliant. But not everyone wants their expectations subverted, or to analyze FFVII like it's literature or film. They want escapism, a story with confident badass like Disc 1 Cloud, choices that matter, and a romance based on what they're already used to.

To be honest, all of that made me so happy that I don't interpret media through tropes, lmao.

You know, when I first played FF7 OG, I thought CA was canon. I'd read it online somewhere and I didn't really have a reason to doubt it. But then I got to the point where Aerith died and almost immediately I realised I'd been lied to, lol. I didn't even have to see all the CT moments. By the time I started FF7 OG, I'd already read/watched plenty of Japanese works and very, very rarely do these stories leave their MCs hopelessly pining after their love interest. The second male lead? Sure. Sometimes to a creepy degree.

The problem then is that of people are not delusional, but what they are is obstinate. They guessed one thing, and they are very sore about guessing wrong.

And the sad thing is that they'd rather keep being wrong years after the thing ended than just admit they were wrong and ship their ship like everybody else.


Also, a few random observations of Rebirth: the game mirrors Aerith and Tifa a lot. If you think about how the canon couples mirror each other, too, Nojima seems to like that. Interestingly, so far CT moments have happened under the starry sky or at night while CA moments have happened under fair skies, lol. It's kind of sad that the side quests only happen between Cloud and a party member. I get that it probably would've been too much work to have them all interact with each other during them buuuut I'm selfish, I wanted them all to have bond time, lol. Or at the very least, let them stay behind so we can see what they'd do outside of Cloud-sphere instead of them all hanging in the background not doing or reacting to anything, lol.

The streamer I've been watching did Aerith's Costa del Sol fake date quest first and right afterwards Tifa's gym quest. And honestly, the contrast between these two quests almost felt cruel.

With Aerith, Cloud was basically stonewalling her. For example, Aerith asked what kind of swimsuit he'd like and Cloud started blithering about preferring function over form like such a twerp. Like, you were supposed to compliment her and say what kind of swimsuit would suit her, lol. But it was absolutely hilarious how turned off Aerith was by his answer, lmao. And their alone time ended on such a sour note too, with Aerith calling the date DOA otherwise and Cloud calling her mean.

It's not that he doesn't like her and it would be false to say that. He obviously does like her. They had such a nice, cute moment at the beach right after Hojo and the clones. But oh my god, they just don't seem to click romantically. I mean, it makes sense since they're both in love with other characters (even if the other isn't necessarily aware of it and the other is in denial/trying to move on) and they're not supposed to click romantically, lol.

And then in Tifa's quest, Cloud was basically all "OMG! Tifa! Please tell me everything! I'd love to listen! Yeah, me too! " Not to mention all the laughs.

So that's that so far, lol.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Many people love and appreciate Aerith’s Costa Del Sol date and I've seen a number of streamers enjoy it too. Like the throwback line to the rooftop date which is something many Aerith quests do with Remake references. The bit with Cloud, Aerith and Red XIII. The NPCs talking about how they get on and the inspiration they are. The part with the chocobo ending with how Cloud says he's still "steering" was also funny.

Retroactively the fashion quest has become one of my favourites and watching other streamers enjoy it brought my attention back to it, I love how the fashion girls react after each part of the quest, and them coming up with their inspiration and outfits based on what Cloud and Aerith are doing, the feedback, etc, and the results in the end.

Cloud compliments/is moved by Aerith’s appearance at least three times (Remake, Ever Crisis, Gongaga quest) his swimsuit comments were just funny too.

Him calling Aerith mean and Aerith apologising? Balanced by the chocobo steering comment. Cloud and Aerith are allowed to have disagreements, they are communicating, they are allowed to learn and do better. It's normal for some of their scenes to have some friction/tension too and people enjoy that aspect as with CT.

Absence of a Sign also involves the stars.

I mean some of them weren't even CAs particularly the streamers and they still found Costa cute and funny and enjoyed the banter.

Costa with Aerith and Cloud is being shown at the concerts/orchestra during NPTK so if they aren't supposed to be romantic the PR department is again either playing shenanigans or doing a great job of showing what they are supposed to.

Tifa's quest is in part Cloud making up for their disagreement/"fall out" from the inn scenes. I can understand why people would prefer/like Tifa's quest better and I think it's good people take different things from different quests. It'd be boring if we all saw things the same way. Ultimately I think a lot of effort was put into the quests and I think they wanted people to enjoy them and feel good/positive about them overall.

 

[Hellenic]

In fact, 2000 Gil to be a hero is fanfic, dontcha know. No kidding, someone recently argued that Cloud entering into the promise of his own free will was "fanfiction level bullshit" so either people aren't reading or they're deliberately misreading what Nojima wrote.

There have been some people who do feel like ToTP feels like fanfiction territory with how it's written, like not necessarily even shippers really, but i'm not surprised they do weaponize it that way too.

They also seem to be claiming Cloud and Tifa's old water tower represents only the past, while Cloud and Aerith's Shiny new water tower represents the future.

You know the one built by Shinra that in-game is called fake instead of new. And where Cloud refuses to sit wherevAerith asks him to. And they talk about Tifa and how Aerith doesn't have that kind of connection. That water tower.

I never understand how people think the new tower scene in anyway correlates to the one between Cloud and Tifa. Both scenes have 2 very different things being conveyed to the player and in no way are they the same thing.

Also, but Maiden isn't "fanfiction level bullshit" despite not being written by Nojima. Not to mention the several things in it that Crisis Core contradicts. In fact, thinking Maiden has seniority in canon over Crisis Core is already laughable as it is.

Gotta stick to and use any and every possible material that has any pro Clerith possibilities mentioned, even if the same material also shoots it in the leg.

The same people that say that this refuse to believe that Cloud can move on after Aerith's death. People are just very selective.

Didn't you know? Only Aerith and Cloud are allowed to move on with each other, Cloud cannot move on from Aerith for whatever reason.

Basically, they ignore the context behind scenes if it doesn't fit their interpretation.

This. It's always this.

Because Maiden Tifa is only taking care of Maiden Cloud, i.e. keeping him company until he dies. Then his true afterlife romance begins after the story ends (this is clearly implied and only delusional haters would claim otherwise).

The last bit of copium they can have, but also at that point they might as well move onto their fanfics instead to get a depiction of their afterlife hookup .

Or is it that they just have clung to a specific passage in Maiden, and have completely blocked out the rest of it? Because then they can say Aerith loved Cloud more and CA is still possible...

That's exactly what they are doing. It's always a passage from somewhere where they conveniently leave out the bit that says otherwise.

Honestly, this makes both Aerith and Cloud out to be horrible people in that they will take advantage of another's feelings for them. But Zack is a horrible cheater because he once asked Cissnei out to dinner. It's okay for Cloud to kiss another woman out of jealousy... but fuck Zack for having peak rizz.

Why would they even enjoy their ship after if this is what the characters have to become for the ship to work? Why are they contradicting their dislike of Zack being a bit flirty with other women to Cloud who straight up kisses another one and it's somehow fine for them? I swear this shipping stuff is stupid.

The thing is, the people who downplay CT like to say that if SE can confirm chocobos getting it on, they could confirm CT too with a very special press release. But that argument applies to CA too? Like, where exactly in or outside the game has SE ever confirmed romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith? As far as I know, nowhere? And you would think that if Cloud had fallen in love with Aerith that would, like, garner some kind of introspection post her death or post Lifestream?

Somehow Cloud and Aeriths eternal love is more confirmed than anything between Cloud and Tifa who have plenty of intimate moments and basically outright confirmations in all kinds of Ultmania pages.

You absolutely would, but they say that the bit at the end where Cloud is talking about what he and Tifa can do if they don't make it out of the crater alive is him declaring his eternal love for Aerith.

Oh yeah this is the so called "confirmation" that somehow is stronger than anything else with Tifa. Wonder if they actually will change this to basically kill of that interpration for the final game. It was a mistranslation right?

I don't read/watch a lot of harems but I've gathered from the ones I have read/watched is that the main character can waver without any feelings involved, lol. Usually because in harems the MC has the personality of a wet noodle, lol.

The kind of pushover losers who don't say no to any kind of advances. It's always pretty clear from the get go though which one the MC fancies or will obviously pick. I personally just can't get invested in these anymore couse there's essentially no actual competition ever.

The problem then is that of people are not delusional, but what they are is obstinate. They guessed one thing, and they are very sore about guessing wrong.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit if you were wrong about something. Though i guess it's too hard after over 20+ years believing otherwise i suppose.

It's kind of sad that the side quests only happen between Cloud and a party member. I get that it probably would've been too much work to have them all interact with each other during them buuuut I'm selfish, I wanted them all to have bond time, lol. Or at the very least, let them stay behind so we can see what they'd do outside of Cloud-sphere instead of them all hanging in the background not doing or reacting to anything, lol.

Here's to hoping we get more group quests in the third game. We did at least get the Protorelic stuff with more than 1 member at a time. Too bad Aerith is not getting anything more with Cid or Vincent at this point.

With Aerith, Cloud was basically stonewalling her. For example, Aerith asked what kind of swimsuit he'd like and Cloud started blithering about preferring function over form like such a twerp. Like, you were supposed to compliment her and say what kind of swimsuit would suit her, lol. But it was absolutely hilarious how turned off Aerith was by his answer, lmao. And their alone time ended on such a sour note too, with Aerith calling the date DOA otherwise and Cloud calling her mean.

It's not that he doesn't like her and it would be false to say that. He obviously does like her. They had such a nice, cute moment at the beach right after Hojo and the clones. But oh my god, they just don't seem to click romantically. I mean, it makes sense since they're both in love with other characters (even if the other isn't necessarily aware of it and the other is in denial/trying to move on) and they're not supposed to click romantically, lol.

And then in Tifa's quest, Cloud was basically all "OMG! Tifa! Please tell me everything! I'd love to listen! Yeah, me too! " Not to mention all the laughs.

The contrast is wild and i commented about it earlier too. Stuff like these quests are exactly why i just don't see romantic sparks between Cloud and Aerith. Like when you go out of your way to portray a lot of their scenes like this, it just doesn't oomph with romantic tension to me.

Cloud is at his best when he can be comfortable and not being forced into situations and it shows with the more endearing scenes he has with Aerith in basically all of the bonding moments they have, where Aerith opens up to him about things (like the Costa Del beach scene and Water Tower scene) versus the occasions where Aerith tries to drag him into something he's not enjoying. On the other hand, him and Tifa are almost always on the same wavelength and he gets to be more himself around her in basically all of their scenes.

Basically Aerith related things often feel like he's doing it for the job, but with Tifa they feel like they are having more fun along the way. I did like the Cosmo Aerith quest though and think that's peak as far as their relationship goes.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Many people love and appreciate Aerith’s Costa Del Sol date and I've seen a number of streamers enjoy it too. Like the throwback line to the rooftop date which is something many Aerith quests do with Remake references. The bit with Cloud, Aerith and Red XIII. The NPCs talking about how they get on and the inspiration they are. The part with the chocobo ending with how Cloud says he's still "steering" was also funny.

For me, it's like... It showed that Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" on the date, so to speak, and Cloud's not really humouring that. You can't even say that he's, like, romantically clueless because you can contrast his behaviour when he's with Tifa and with Tifa he has the water tower, the flower, the drink, the train tunnel roll, alone at last, etc. Which kind of shows that when Cloud wants to go for it romantically, he does.

Though, I have to say, the funniest part of their fake date was still when Cloud started blithering about functional swimsuits and Aerith was so totally turned off, lmao.

But I honestly felt so bad for Aerith when their alone time ended with her apologising. So it was nice that the quest still ended on an amicable note when they got back from collecting the shells. They get along a lot better when -- how to put this -- she doesn't try to fish romance out of their interactions?

But it's so totally false to say that Cloud doesn't like or care about Aerith because he obviously does. That's like a part of his character arc: "There's not a thing I don't cherish!" To show his contrast with Sephiroth who didn't even cherish his own memories. So I wish that certain parts of the fandom would stop confusing what they feel about Aerith with what Cloud feels about Aerith.

Stuff like these quests are exactly why i just don't see romantic sparks between Cloud and Aerith. Like when you go out of your way to portray a lot of their scenes like this, it just doesn't oomph with romantic tension to me.

Yeah, their more romantic moments are ironically when there's no romance to it? I mean, for me their fake date showed two things: they don't click romantically and Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" with Cloud while Cloud is either oblivious or just not humouring that. Ask Zack what kind of swimsuit he'd like and he'd probably say "Oh, you'd look really cute in X!"

I mean, it makes sense since they're not really supposed to click romantically but omg, Aerith apologising after they were done collecting the shells was still just... I felt so bad for her.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.

Still I do get feeling bad/sorry for Aerith too, same happens with Tifa, I think you're supposed to emphasise/sympathise with the girls at times over Cloud. I know during some stream chats I've been in people have also called Cloud an a-hole or yelled at him for some of his responses to Tifa lol, feeling bad for her and not him.


I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.

Yeah, that's kind of silly since Cloud's an unreliable narrator too and an unreliable narrator doesn't mean irredeemable liar either? And haven't they already talked in the game about how they weren't that close as children but they still want to learn and know more about each other?