Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Yeah! Exactly!
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
I didn't mean to start a conversation about tangential semantics.
When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.
For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.
That being said, I wouldn't mind the scene being changed to something more overtly romantic, I would just wonder how the Highwind scene would top it.
When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.
For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.
That being said, I wouldn't mind the scene being changed to something more overtly romantic, I would just wonder how the Highwind scene would top it.
Edley
Pray for Sound
- AKA
- Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
Might be a product of the affection system. Once the splinter Clouds rejoin his main consciousness he's aware that Tifa knows his secrets. I'm still not sure what the intent was with the way they talk/react afterwards, possibly deference to player choice, but it doesn't feel overtly romantic. The first thing Tifa does is call Cloud a "stupid jerk" for worrying everyone and then they realize they have to escape the lifestream.
Afterwards, Cloud shares his true past with the party and Tifa says that he "sure is messed up". The game progresses as if Cloud never left the party and I don't think we get an actual non "gamified" (dialogue that is telling the player what's going on/what to do) dialogue between Tifa and Cloud until they talk about their varying viewpoints on Aerith's death on the bridge of the Highwind. Following that, we don't get anything until the Under the Highwind sequence which of course has the HA/LA versions. The High Affection has confirmation that they remember:
It would feel like a giant compromise if the best girl point system reared its head in part 3, so I think it's a safe guess to say that LSS and UTH will be expanded and altered for Retrilogy.
Afterwards, Cloud shares his true past with the party and Tifa says that he "sure is messed up". The game progresses as if Cloud never left the party and I don't think we get an actual non "gamified" (dialogue that is telling the player what's going on/what to do) dialogue between Tifa and Cloud until they talk about their varying viewpoints on Aerith's death on the bridge of the Highwind. Following that, we don't get anything until the Under the Highwind sequence which of course has the HA/LA versions. The High Affection has confirmation that they remember:
| Cloud | Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa? That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream. |
It would feel like a giant compromise if the best girl point system reared its head in part 3, so I think it's a safe guess to say that LSS and UTH will be expanded and altered for Retrilogy.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I think the key word there is 'primarily' as the romance is an undercurrent for most of it, to be sure.
I mean, you aren't limited to just one romantic scene per game. FF16 had several.
Honestly? Nah, I don't think the AV had much of anything to do with it. The romantic moments in prior FF games were pretty short and sweet. Hell, Lunar Silver Star Story which is game in which the love between a man and a woman is literally the key to saving the world is pretty perfunctory with its romance scenes.
That said "You stupid jerk, you had us so worried" is kinda bog standard romance cliche in a lot of Japanese works.
That one's a bad translation. The JP line is more like "Back to the grumpy/ moody Cloud I remember." referencing how she remembers him from their youth, which prompts Barret's "So what's the difference" joke.
I honestly think the dev crunch was to blame there. I mean the game got pushed back a month right before release and even then it wasn't fully finished leading to the additions in US and INTL versions.
That said, holy fuck yes I think we're getting greatly expanded and enhanced versions of both sequences for Recompile.
Goddammit, after remake project we could get a legitimate "Recompilation" project.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Don't worry about it! I just felt that it was kind of "beside the point" to argue whether LSS is romantic or not romantic since the reason why it's just Tifa and Cloud there is because of their love each other, you know? But I still don't know the best way to convey my nebulous thoughts on it so the thread may carry on, lol.
I don't think it's "Romantic" in the literal sense. If I tell my wife about a scene and I call it "Romantic" she's going to assume it involves physicality and/or sex which the LS Sequence of course doesn't get in to. That being said the LS sequence has two major beats. First is to get to the truth of Cloud's identity. Second is the reveal of his feelings for Tifa so it's definitely "Romantic" in the sense that it covers that kind of material, I just would not call it a romance scene. You could, however, describe the LS Sequence to someone and say "It was really romantic" and that would make sense IMO.
Now that's an interesting take I haven't seen. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they discuss what happened in the LS later and it seems clearly implied that they have a complete memory of it.
Even if not I don't know how you make the case that Cloud comes out of the LS sequence completely clear on who he is/was and what happened but that particular part (the confession) of it remains suppressed. The entire implication of his speech to the crew after the LS Sequence is that he remembers everything that happened in the LS. Seems pretty all or nothing to me. Either he recalls what happened in the LS completely or he doesn't and thus would be no better off than when he started.
As for Cloud having any doubts about what Tifa may or may not have learned in the LS I need to replay but again I'm fairly sure there are follow up dialog(s) that confirm she's completely aware and he's aware.
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null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
To me the Lifestream scene is romantic to the point of being cliché. Because the answer to “who is Cloud Strife” turns out to be “the boy who wanted the girl next door to notice him”. That’s literally all there is to it. The only other thing we know about the real Cloud is that he has his mom’s haircut. Otherwise Tifa is the motivation behind the game happening. You can’t separate Cloud’s identity arc from his feelings for her.
And before the Lifestream scene is Tifa dropping to her knees, sobbing and giving up the world to be with him. And the climax of the Lifestream scene is the proof that Cloud really did it, he kept his promise to save her, literally like a knight in shining armor. And now they both know it. It’s all so sickeningly sweet it makes me want to puke.
But yes, “romance” sounds like a straightforward word but it really means different things to different people. I won’t argue that my view is the only valid one.
And before the Lifestream scene is Tifa dropping to her knees, sobbing and giving up the world to be with him. And the climax of the Lifestream scene is the proof that Cloud really did it, he kept his promise to save her, literally like a knight in shining armor. And now they both know it. It’s all so sickeningly sweet it makes me want to puke.
But yes, “romance” sounds like a straightforward word but it really means different things to different people. I won’t argue that my view is the only valid one.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
This is basically why I think there will be a confession (that and Akira's song in Rebirth) and most probably a kiss in the Lifestream because it's supposed to be romantic and too many people brush it off (either as non-romantic, either as in the past). Yet this exists (FFVII 10th anniversary Ultimania):
Also something else that a lot of people overlook or do not comprehend with the CT relationship, this is until the Northern Crater scene:
And this is why the LS sequence can only be with them both, because only Tifa has that special place in Cloud's heart. She's the only one he has full trust in, and that's also because:
And this is what part of the LS sequence is about, it's about Cloud telling this to Tifa.
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The LSS is a moment in the OG where we see Cloud from the outside, apart from player input. And I think it's pretty odd that his "locked up secret wish" is rarely talked about.
To me, this is the most solid piece of evidence that Cloud had a crush on Tifa. Furthermore, He's still acting on these feelings when he returns to Nibelheim, even while he is too embarrassed to show his face. The game is literally telling the player that he liked her, and judging from his actions, still likes her.
I've only seen one Clerith perspective trying to debunk this. They said the "tender feelings" could be romantic, but tender can also mean "bruised". Their reading was that Cloud felt bitter toward Tifa for bullying him. This interpretation doesn't match up with anything else in the game. The developers wouldn't have the protagonist spend the night with their bully in an unavoidable scene on the eve of the final battle.
To me, this is the most solid piece of evidence that Cloud had a crush on Tifa. Furthermore, He's still acting on these feelings when he returns to Nibelheim, even while he is too embarrassed to show his face. The game is literally telling the player that he liked her, and judging from his actions, still likes her.
I've only seen one Clerith perspective trying to debunk this. They said the "tender feelings" could be romantic, but tender can also mean "bruised". Their reading was that Cloud felt bitter toward Tifa for bullying him. This interpretation doesn't match up with anything else in the game. The developers wouldn't have the protagonist spend the night with their bully in an unavoidable scene on the eve of the final battle.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
"Tender" feelings being interpreted as "bruised" is just a super bad faith interpretation.
Unfortunately, as mean as this sounds, it just screams of copium. In order for Cleriths to feel secure, they have to interpret Tifa as a toxic bully. Unfortunately, it just doesn't jive with the rest of the story... in that, if Tifa truly was a bully and framed as such then the story narratively rewarding her multiple times in the second half doesn't make much sense.
Unfortunately, as mean as this sounds, it just screams of copium. In order for Cleriths to feel secure, they have to interpret Tifa as a toxic bully. Unfortunately, it just doesn't jive with the rest of the story... in that, if Tifa truly was a bully and framed as such then the story narratively rewarding her multiple times in the second half doesn't make much sense.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
Yeah Nojima keeps writing new stories that say oddly specific things like "Because didn't he promise Tifa? Of his own free will he decided to become an exceptional man". Making it clear that Tifa did not emotionally beat Cloud offscreen into wanting to be special to her. The man is not letting people fill in the blanks with this bullshit anymore.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Was it Cali? That's one of hers, IIRC.
I mean, we are talking about the people who tried to argue Tifa was "such a sweetheart" or that for her Koibito meant "one who loved"
Bad Faith interpretations are the name of the game.
Rival Orphanages, anyone?
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
That's funny because I've seen arguments that they're not "hetero-normative" enough so them living together and raising two kids isn't indicative of anything, if SE really wanted people to see them together they'd make a very special announcement! Also, Barret erasure!
I've also seen the argument that Tifa and Cloud can't be together because they're both "bottoms", lol.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I've seen a lot of attacks against Tifa recently, coming from CAs, SCs and AT "fans" and I think the kiss really screwed their brains, considering what I read. For the first time they have to confront the reality that yes, Cloud loves Tifa and that CT is canon. Theorybros still try their damnest to diminish her role and give it to Aerith too, which is puzzling to me because... if you're theorybros, aren't you supposed to understand the game and its story/mechanics? Apparently not.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
But wouldn't a CA ending be "hetero-normative" too?
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
…
I’m just gonna stay in my illusion where people understand what heteronormative means, and continue to play the charade as if it were true.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Ah, people using Buzzwords willy nilly.
Honestly, heteronormative and comp-het get way overused, even in vaguely correct contexts.
It's just wild that CAs would use hetero-normative when that same label to could apply to how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Usually I see that accusation leveled at series where every single character ends up in a hetero relationship, or coming from lgbt critics of media.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
You should realise, you are talking about people who argued that the "koibito" used to describe Tifa as Cloud's lover was really "koi________bito". There is little good faith coming from that side - not the loudest ones, at least. We have some very good people here though, one of my friends is a CA but she knows the story - it's all about accepting that if you ship it, it's not for canon, it's for fun.
Recently there was even a "Fluffy is representing Aerith" theory coming from there and I'm sorry but they were clowned and it was deserved. It was yet another attempt to take something from Tifa for Aerith - Fluffy is just her cat, really, and she connected Cloud and Tifa together when they were kids. That came after the blue baby theory, the jealous kiss theory, the cheek kiss theory, and probably more and more I forgot right now because it's getting late. There are fans who are levelheaded, and then there are those, louders, whom you see frequently on X - even more so because they create a lot of alts. And the latter don't really have a good history with analysis, good faith argument, semantics.
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
Ah.....it's fun. lol All these theories and discussions—I only want to care for the merit of discussion and how that interacts with the limitations of understanding. It's hard though, because while we're here saying what we do, all sides are in a state of bewilderment of how others are just not getting it, being wild, illogical, being bad faith, etc. And beyond the views of each other, THEN there's even the different understanding of "the standards"—like that of what it takes for something to be considered reasonable or logical, or what is too far and shouldn't be said. And that can change SO much and have nuances from person to person, even here on this forum. "Didn't you say NOT to do that when arguing about FF7? Why're you doing it for FF13?" "Yeah but that's DIFFERENT!"
Is it? By my sharp standard, probably not. lol But that's all it should be—just good ol' nature debate, what you know vs what they "know" (with the implication of "" is easily flipped from their perspective). I'd rather be at a point of "this is heteronormative" vs "no it isn't" and "CA are bluedabadee" vs "wtf are you on about", than the worst dose of ugliness that goes beyond just being critical of someone's point. As annoying as even the "Koibito" war was and the current wave of hetero-based argument, I'll take a battle of definition/context over what is apparently just now people throwing around racial slurs.
Is it? By my sharp standard, probably not. lol But that's all it should be—just good ol' nature debate, what you know vs what they "know" (with the implication of "" is easily flipped from their perspective). I'd rather be at a point of "this is heteronormative" vs "no it isn't" and "CA are bluedabadee" vs "wtf are you on about", than the worst dose of ugliness that goes beyond just being critical of someone's point. As annoying as even the "Koibito" war was and the current wave of hetero-based argument, I'll take a battle of definition/context over what is apparently just now people throwing around racial slurs.
I've observed a lot of complains toward the developers of the Remake series regarding how they handle the LTD. People will often say that certain sections felt forced or out-of-character. I can't help but wonder how much hindsight plays a role in this.
To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.
But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.
So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.
To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.
But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.
So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
It's statistically more likely for everyone in a given group to be straight/ in hetero relationships, just because there's a far greater population segment that's straight/ bi as opposed to gay so the chances are just higher. Even in groups that are not majority 'straight.'
Also Comphet is basically just extreme salt and always has been.
Look, if they want to associate Aerith with Fluffy then Aerith is going to need to accept that as Fluffy she exists primarily as a plot device to give fluffy moments to Cloud and Tifa via shenannigans and to tell people if Tifa is in danger.