SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[null]

To me the Lifestream scene is romantic to the point of being cliché. Because the answer to “who is Cloud Strife” turns out to be “the boy who wanted the girl next door to notice him”. That’s literally all there is to it. The only other thing we know about the real Cloud is that he has his mom’s haircut. Otherwise Tifa is the motivation behind the game happening. You can’t separate Cloud’s identity arc from his feelings for her.

And before the Lifestream scene is Tifa dropping to her knees, sobbing and giving up the world to be with him. And the climax of the Lifestream scene is the proof that Cloud really did it, he kept his promise to save her, literally like a knight in shining armor. And now they both know it. It’s all so sickeningly sweet it makes me want to puke.

But yes, “romance” sounds like a straightforward word but it really means different things to different people. I won’t argue that my view is the only valid one.

 

[Eerie]

To me the Lifestream scene is romantic to the point of being cliché. Because the answer to “who is Cloud Strife” turns out to be “the boy who wanted the girl next door to notice him”. That’s literally all there is to it. The only other thing we know about the real Cloud is that he has his mom’s haircut. Otherwise Tifa is the motivation behind the game happening. You can’t separate Cloud’s identity arc from his feelings for her.

This is basically why I think there will be a confession (that and Akira's song in Rebirth) and most probably a kiss in the Lifestream because it's supposed to be romantic and too many people brush it off (either as non-romantic, either as in the past). Yet this exists (FFVII 10th anniversary Ultimania):



Also something else that a lot of people overlook or do not comprehend with the CT relationship, this is until the Northern Crater scene:


And this is why the LS sequence can only be with them both, because only Tifa has that special place in Cloud's heart. She's the only one he has full trust in, and that's also because:

And this is what part of the LS sequence is about, it's about Cloud telling this to Tifa.

 

[Skilganon]

The LSS is a moment in the OG where we see Cloud from the outside, apart from player input. And I think it's pretty odd that his "locked up secret wish" is rarely talked about.

To me, this is the most solid piece of evidence that Cloud had a crush on Tifa. Furthermore, He's still acting on these feelings when he returns to Nibelheim, even while he is too embarrassed to show his face. The game is literally telling the player that he liked her, and judging from his actions, still likes her.

I've only seen one Clerith perspective trying to debunk this. They said the "tender feelings" could be romantic, but tender can also mean "bruised". Their reading was that Cloud felt bitter toward Tifa for bullying him. This interpretation doesn't match up with anything else in the game. The developers wouldn't have the protagonist spend the night with their bully in an unavoidable scene on the eve of the final battle.

 

[GamerSkull]

"Tender" feelings being interpreted as "bruised" is just a super bad faith interpretation.

Unfortunately, as mean as this sounds, it just screams of copium. In order for Cleriths to feel secure, they have to interpret Tifa as a toxic bully. Unfortunately, it just doesn't jive with the rest of the story... in that, if Tifa truly was a bully and framed as such then the story narratively rewarding her multiple times in the second half doesn't make much sense.

 

[null]

Yeah Nojima keeps writing new stories that say oddly specific things like "Because didn't he promise Tifa? Of his own free will he decided to become an exceptional man". Making it clear that Tifa did not emotionally beat Cloud offscreen into wanting to be special to her. The man is not letting people fill in the blanks with this bullshit anymore.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The LSS is a moment in the OG where we see Cloud from the outside, apart from player input. And I think it's pretty odd that his "locked up secret wish" is rarely talked about.

To me, this is the most solid piece of evidence that Cloud had a crush on Tifa. Furthermore, He's still acting on these feelings when he returns to Nibelheim, even while he is too embarrassed to show his face. The game is literally telling the player that he liked her, and judging from his actions, still likes her.

I've only seen one Clerith perspective trying to debunk this. They said the "tender feelings" could be romantic, but tender can also mean "bruised". Their reading was that Cloud felt bitter toward Tifa for bullying him. This interpretation doesn't match up with anything else in the game. The developers wouldn't have the protagonist spend the night with their bully in an unavoidable scene on the eve of the final battle.

Was it Cali? That's one of hers, IIRC.

"Tender" feelings being interpreted as "bruised" is just a super bad faith interpretation.

Unfortunately, as mean as this sounds, it just screams of copium. In order for Cleriths to feel secure, they have to interpret Tifa as a toxic bully. Unfortunately, it just doesn't jive with the rest of the story... in that, if Tifa truly was a bully and framed as such then the story narratively rewarding her multiple times in the second half doesn't make much sense.

I mean, we are talking about the people who tried to argue Tifa was "such a sweetheart" or that for her Koibito meant "one who loved"
Bad Faith interpretations are the name of the game.
Rival Orphanages, anyone?

 

[Skilganon]

I've also seen several tweets/blog posts saying that thinking Cloud and Tifa are together post-OG is "hetero-normative"

 

[null]

I mean, those could be genuinely thoughtful analyses of how the audience engages with the medium, or they could be Cloud/Sephiroth fans grasping at straws. No way to know without context.

 

[Skilganon]

The context is Clerith shippers

 

[Ryeleigh]

I've also seen several tweets/blog posts saying that thinking Cloud and Tifa are together post-OG is "hetero-normative"

That's funny because I've seen arguments that they're not "hetero-normative" enough so them living together and raising two kids isn't indicative of anything, if SE really wanted people to see them together they'd make a very special announcement! Also, Barret erasure!

I've also seen the argument that Tifa and Cloud can't be together because they're both "bottoms", lol.

 

[Eerie]

I've seen a lot of attacks against Tifa recently, coming from CAs, SCs and AT "fans" and I think the kiss really screwed their brains, considering what I read. For the first time they have to confront the reality that yes, Cloud loves Tifa and that CT is canon. Theorybros still try their damnest to diminish her role and give it to Aerith too, which is puzzling to me because... if you're theorybros, aren't you supposed to understand the game and its story/mechanics? Apparently not.

 

[GamerSkull]

The context is Clerith shippers

But wouldn't a CA ending be "hetero-normative" too?

 

[null]

The context is Clerith shippers

…

I’m just gonna stay in my illusion where people understand what heteronormative means, and continue to play the charade as if it were true.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've also seen several tweets/blog posts saying that thinking Cloud and Tifa are together post-OG is "hetero-normative"

The context is Clerith shippers

Ah, people using Buzzwords willy nilly.

Honestly, heteronormative and comp-het get way overused, even in vaguely correct contexts.

 

[Skilganon]

It's just wild that CAs would use hetero-normative when that same label to could apply to how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Usually I see that accusation leveled at series where every single character ends up in a hetero relationship, or coming from lgbt critics of media.

 

[Eerie]

It's just wild that CAs would use hetero-normative when that same label to could apply to how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Usually I see that accusation leveled at series where every single character ends up in a hetero relationship, or coming from lgbt critics of media.

You should realise, you are talking about people who argued that the "koibito" used to describe Tifa as Cloud's lover was really "koi________bito". There is little good faith coming from that side - not the loudest ones, at least. We have some very good people here though, one of my friends is a CA but she knows the story - it's all about accepting that if you ship it, it's not for canon, it's for fun.

Recently there was even a "Fluffy is representing Aerith" theory coming from there and I'm sorry but they were clowned and it was deserved. It was yet another attempt to take something from Tifa for Aerith - Fluffy is just her cat, really, and she connected Cloud and Tifa together when they were kids. That came after the blue baby theory, the jealous kiss theory, the cheek kiss theory, and probably more and more I forgot right now because it's getting late. There are fans who are levelheaded, and then there are those, louders, whom you see frequently on X - even more so because they create a lot of alts. And the latter don't really have a good history with analysis, good faith argument, semantics.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Ah.....it's fun. lol All these theories and discussions—I only want to care for the merit of discussion and how that interacts with the limitations of understanding. It's hard though, because while we're here saying what we do, all sides are in a state of bewilderment of how others are just not getting it, being wild, illogical, being bad faith, etc. And beyond the views of each other, THEN there's even the different understanding of "the standards"—like that of what it takes for something to be considered reasonable or logical, or what is too far and shouldn't be said. And that can change SO much and have nuances from person to person, even here on this forum. "Didn't you say NOT to do that when arguing about FF7? Why're you doing it for FF13?" "Yeah but that's DIFFERENT!"

Is it? By my sharp standard, probably not. lol But that's all it should be—just good ol' nature debate, what you know vs what they "know" (with the implication of "" is easily flipped from their perspective). I'd rather be at a point of "this is heteronormative" vs "no it isn't" and "CA are bluedabadee" vs "wtf are you on about", than the worst dose of ugliness that goes beyond just being critical of someone's point. As annoying as even the "Koibito" war was and the current wave of hetero-based argument, I'll take a battle of definition/context over what is apparently just now people throwing around racial slurs.

 

[Skilganon]

I've observed a lot of complains toward the developers of the Remake series regarding how they handle the LTD. People will often say that certain sections felt forced or out-of-character. I can't help but wonder how much hindsight plays a role in this.

To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.

But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.

So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's just wild that CAs would use hetero-normative when that same label to could apply to how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Usually I see that accusation leveled at series where every single character ends up in a hetero relationship, or coming from lgbt critics of media.

It's statistically more likely for everyone in a given group to be straight/ in hetero relationships, just because there's a far greater population segment that's straight/ bi as opposed to gay so the chances are just higher. Even in groups that are not majority 'straight.'

Also Comphet is basically just extreme salt and always has been.

You should realise, you are talking about people who argued that the "koibito" used to describe Tifa as Cloud's lover was really "koi________bito". There is little good faith coming from that side - not the loudest ones, at least. We have some very good people here though, one of my friends is a CA but she knows the story - it's all about accepting that if you ship it, it's not for canon, it's for fun.

Recently there was even a "Fluffy is representing Aerith" theory coming from there and I'm sorry but they were clowned and it was deserved. It was yet another attempt to take something from Tifa for Aerith - Fluffy is just her cat, really, and she connected Cloud and Tifa together when they were kids. That came after the blue baby theory, the jealous kiss theory, the cheek kiss theory, and probably more and more I forgot right now because it's getting late. There are fans who are levelheaded, and then there are those, louders, whom you see frequently on X - even more so because they create a lot of alts. And the latter don't really have a good history with analysis, good faith argument, semantics.

Look, if they want to associate Aerith with Fluffy then Aerith is going to need to accept that as Fluffy she exists primarily as a plot device to give fluffy moments to Cloud and Tifa via shenannigans and to tell people if Tifa is in danger.

 

[Xannis]

I've observed a lot of complains toward the developers of the Remake series regarding how they handle the LTD. People will often say that certain sections felt forced or out-of-character. I can't help but wonder how much hindsight plays a role in this.

To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.

But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.

So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.

Funny but I'm in the camp of OG was indeed kind of vague but Remake/Rebirth seem to be taking a different tack and clearly saying "You should be rooting for CT and ZA respectively here" through the story beats. At least as clearly as they can say it at this point.

We'll see how well this ages of course but if you have even a basic understanding of tropes and assume FF will follow them they're dropping all kinds of hints that CT and ZA are the endpoints that even a complete casual will catch and/or understand. ZA in particular seems to have been taken up to 11 so to speak in Remake/Rebirth vs OG. This whole Zack searching for his love across time and space (while Aerith waffles back and forth not knowing he's still out there) thing is so tropey and only has one acceptable endpoint unless it were Game of Thrones. That paired with all kinds of little hinty things they added to CT that weren't in OG. I mean I just can't see the "Triangle" in Remake/Rebirth when you look at scenes like the train roll and the almost kiss when the other side has nothing like that.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Funny but I'm in the camp of OG was indeed kind of vague but Remake/Rebirth seem to be taking a different tack and clearly saying "You should be rooting for CT and ZA respectively here" through the story beats. At least as clearly as they can say it at this point.

We'll see how well this ages of course but if you have even a basic understanding of tropes and assume FF will follow them they're dropping all kinds of hints that CT and ZA are the endpoints that even a complete casual will catch and/or understand. ZA in particular seems to have been taken up to 11 so to speak in Remake/Rebirth vs OG. This whole Zack searching for his love across time and space (while Aerith waffles back and forth not knowing he's still out there) thing is so tropey and only has one acceptable endpoint unless it were Game of Thrones. That paired with all kinds of little hinty things they added to CT that weren't in OG. I mean I just can't see the "Triangle" in Remake/Rebirth when you look at scenes like the train roll and the almost kiss when the other side has nothing like that.

I agree. One of the reasons why I can't really take Re-trilogy or the LTD as vague is, well, Zack. If the devs wanted to be vague (or explicit for that matter) about the LTD or CA, there is seriously no reason for Zack to physically exist in the story. He was dead. There was no need to bring him back. They could've written Aerith's initial attraction, her confusion, her wavering, all of it without bringing Zack back and showing his devotion and unwavering determination to save/reunite with her.

But apparently, you can't even discuss Zack or ZA without the knee-jerk response from certain fans that "Zack doesn't own Aerith" or "Aerith is allowed to move on" as if she's real and the devs are just forcing her to love or stay stuck on Zack out of the maliciousness of their petty hearts.

And that's without getting to CT, lol.

 

[Skilganon]

I feel like the distinct contentiousness of the FF7 LTD is 99% the fault of SE. There is a sizeable chunk of people who played the OG, watched/played the compilation material, whose main source of enjoyment in the world of FF7 revolves around Cloud and Aerith. In the years after the OG, leading into the compilation, SE licensed a lot of third-party merchandise directed at the CA audience. There were also CA themed easter eggs in a lot of mobile games before/during the compilation.

Even though we can say "marketing isn't evidence", a lot of CAs feel validated. I don't think it's at all unethical for SE to make money off of this, if indeed they intended the ships to be vague in the OG and wanted people to interpret as they saw fit. But I haven't seen any sign in interviews with Nojima or Nomura that indicate the vagueness of their intentions.

What I mean is, Nojima and Nomura constantly say they have their own interpretations, but don't mind if players come to different conclusions. To me, this sets up a situation where one side is bound to feel bamboozled in the end, as SE is determined to expand the world and character relationships. Because Nojima and Nomura's intentions will eventually come to light.

And when it does, how will all those people feel who bought all that CA merch? I don't think it'll go over well.

SE should have either committed to the vagueness of the relationships, or just went full-on CT from the beginning of the compilation. What they're doing now is going seemingly full-on CT after two decades of compilation material, meanwhile giving CAs just enough to feel satisfied.

 

[Sacky]

It truly amazes me that people claim to love FF7 yet for their idea of a different AC the change they want is for Cloud to have a lifestream form Baby with Aerith, become even more depressed, and as a bonus fun thing for Tifa fans she would be able to raise the lifeform while Cloud gets to be depressed??
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1g5xukc

 

[pxl_pushr]

It truly amazes me that people claim to love FF7 yet for their idea of a different AC the change they want is for Cloud to have a lifestream form Baby with Aerith, become even more depressed, and as a bonus fun thing for Tifa fans she would be able to raise the lifeform while Cloud gets to be depressed??
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1g5xukc

Now see this is what happens when the recipe calls for a teaspoon of Berserk but you dump in half the bottle.

 

[null]

See what happens when you koibito tsunagi in the promised land without protection? Be careful out there fellas.