SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

I mean she is more or less a goddess in AC, I still remember the materia jesus meme. Consequently my least favourite version of Aerith, at least CC Aerith started to grow on me over the years. FFVII vanilla, and the remake series (at least Remake/Rebirth) will
always be my favourite Aeriths. She's not perfect, with some very human flaws, and that's what I love. She wanted so much to just be a normal girl after all.


No she's not how dare

I kid but speed runners just recently discovered a new map manip that lets you skip all the way to City of the Ancients after getting out of Midgar, that lets you "keep" Aerith. She's Scroedngers Aerith.

Yep. You still watch her die, but since the event flag that removes her from the party isn't tripped, you can bring Aerith to watch herself die.
Honestly it would make for a pretty surreal fanfic. "FF7 but it's being speedrun but the characters are aware it's being speedrun."

I'm curious how the game handles the events where you lose party members after that point in that run. Like, will Schroedinger Aerith be stuck in the gas chamber with Tifa and spectating the slap fight, or is she properly removed.
Also when do Cait Sith and Cid get properly inserted into this party since you skipped their recruitment?

At this point though it's Zack, Aerith, and Sephiroth are "dead" but it doesn't seem to stop them any. They still are very much present. Zack might only be in lifestream worlds or memories or whatever but people still care about him and don't want anything to happen to him. So many streams I watch streamers react with sheer joy or love when Zack shows up. They don't care that he's "dead" especially while on their first play of Rebirth, playing through the story and trying to work out what's going on, sometimes it doesn't even cross their minds he may not be actually alive until theory time.

The devs are partially responsible, they are the ones that said Aerith was of the utmost importance, and Zack is the planet or something, whatever that means.

I think Zack's apparent vitality is why so many people are hung up on the idea of distinct timeline branches rather than the potentialities existing inside the lifestream.
Granted, the fact that everyone in those potentialities is apparently just as real as their original counterparts but inherently ephemeral in nature leads to some interesting metaphysical quandries.

What if they pull out a surprise banner and Zack is Celes

I think people would still be mad because it doesn't fit very well with either character personality or lore wise. I think fans of both characters would feel insulted.
Maybe General leo if you didn't make him into the FFVI young pup Gau?

 

[Eerie]

The devs are partially responsible, they are the ones that said Aerith was of the utmost importance, and Zack is the planet or something, whatever that means.

IIRC they said that Aerith was of utmost importance for FFVII themes, which are life and death - embodied perfectly by the lively Aerith, who dies when she doesn't want to and leaves a mark on the group and players.

But you're right, I think REMAKE/REBIRTH Aerith is the best Aerith we ever had. And to be very honest, it is also true for all the main characters minus Cid for now. The characterisation of the main gang is top notch.

 

[Skilganon]

The ending of Rebirth did have a lot of unnecessary bombast. The cynical part of me thinks this was all to create discussion around the ending even though Aerith is going to stay dead in part 3. Hence making all theory-crafting pointless.

It's like with the end of Remake. Destroying the embodiment of Fate just ensures the old story will continue. The theory-crafting was all baited.

Rebirth's ending will most likely be revealed as an illusion in Cloud's mind. We already know Cloud is seeing things at the end, due to the differing POV's in that ending scene.

And we already know Zack is for sure dead because Cloud has the Buster Sword. Aerith's death was determined the moment she was able to communicate with her future self. She's communicating with the self who is fated to die and become a spirit in the Lifestream. To prevent this would create a time paradox.

The multiple universes are hierarchical. The Beagle-verse is the main/physical world. All other worlds are in the Lifestream or at least less than physical. We know this because Cloud has to astral project into Aerith's dream world while unconscious in the Beagle-verse. Zack, meanwhile, can just hope from world to world because he is pure spirit and doesn't know his physical body is dead.

If it turned out Zack is alive or that he could be revived, I feel like that would be a bigger issue than Aerith surviving. The reason why Cloud is so f*cked up mentally is because he witnessed Zack die. It would make Cloud's self-deception look pointless and take away all consequences. The Price of Freedom is actually pretty cheap in the end.

 

[Eerie]

Zack, meanwhile, can just hope from world to world because he is pure spirit and doesn't know his physical body is dead.

I was chatting about this yesterday or the day before, and I think that while at the beginning he wasn't aware that he was dead, by the end he knew it.

Zack's scenes, while few and in-between, really do hold a lot of importance and I believe they serve both as the Lifestream exploration and understanding of the Lifestream (coupled with Aerith's dream world and Sephiroth explaining it all right after to Cloud) and as character development. It also serves, in the grand scheme of things, to explain that one line "Her first love is at all times by her side" (about Aerith), which does clashes with CoLW!Aerith who is very Cloud-centric still.

First, for the question in itself, Zack is for the first time confronted to a situation where just being his usual cheerful self isn't enough: he has to think and we do see him perplexed by a few things:

• why is Bigg's description of Cloud so different from the Cloud he knows?
• how could Aerith meet and fall in love with Cloud when he was with him this whole time?
• why can't he save Aerith but Cloud can?
• why is everyone OK with the idea of the world ending and dying? (I think it will be a stark contrast with when Meteor will be summoned by Sephiroth)

All these have answers tied to him being dead and being in a place that knows past-present-future as one thing.
Biggs, who is a thinker, doesn't serve only as foil to him, but is there to stop him and make him think. They try to elaborate hypothesis, why them, etc. To us, the players, it becomes clear that Biggs accepted his death as we don't see him come back once he attacks the Shinra troops - Zack is not there yet, and furthermore, even if he accepted his death, the Planet has more in store for him.
But to be back to Zack's POV, he also has a moment in the Lifestream where he follows the yellow flowers (just like Aerith does), and when he meets Cloud, they clearly aren't in the same plan because he has to touch him to break the veil, so to speak. Afterwards, he spends his time crashing from church to church (IIRC they are more and more derelicted aren't they?), as CoLW!Aerith dies with all her worlds. And, a last one is built, as "our" Aerith dies in the real world: this is the one where Zack arrives.

It's pretty clear that with him trying to understand, at the end when he finally gets into Aerith's new dream world (her promised land, once again I am 100% sure about that), he understands that he is powerless, that he's not "alive" anymore, and all he can do is wait (yes, I believe Aerith will come back to this place and they will meet again, because while CoLW!Aerith's promised land was about meeting Cloud, "our" Aerith's promised land will be about being with Zack in their cherished place).

 

[Hellenic]

I kid but speed runners just recently discovered a new map manip that lets you skip all the way to City of the Ancients after getting out of Midgar, that lets you "keep" Aerith. She's Scroedngers Aerith.

Yeah i saw that skip very recently too. It's neat how people still keep finding new skips in that game this many years later.

But you're right, I think REMAKE/REBIRTH Aerith is the best Aerith we ever had. And to be very honest, it is also true for all the main characters minus Cid for now. The characterisation of the main gang is top notch.

I do still believe Cid will show some of his uglier personality traits when we do actually get to his arc in the third game. I wouldn't be worried at all considering how they handled literally every other character in the main party in these games.

The ending of Rebirth did have a lot of unnecessary bombast. The cynical part of me thinks this was all to create discussion around the ending even though Aerith is going to stay dead in part 3. Hence making all theory-crafting pointless.

Yes the whole point of the ending being like it was for people to keep talking and theorizing till the third game is out, even though i personally don't like how they handled it for the most part. I do like the delusional Cloud showcase they are doing with it at the very least even if they sacrificed Aeriths last moment there for that.

 

[Eerie]

I do still believe Cid will show some of his uglier personality traits when we do actually get to his arc in the third game. I wouldn't be worried at all considering how they handled literally every other character in the main party in these games.

It's my belief too, hence the "for now" part. I think it's quite evident he doesn't really want to go home and all of this gives him a good excuse to avoid Rocket Town.

 

[Shadowstorm]

I just wish they'd stop giving Cloud thieves outfits just because he's the main guy. Yuffie deserves to rock that shit

 

[Skilganon]

Imagine if EC does an FFVIII crossover. Cloud is Squall, Tifa is Rinoa, and Aerith is.... Quistis? Edea? Selphie?

Knowing SE, they'll make Tifa a Zell outfit because that's like an established pattern. It's like SE has no idea how to manage the expectations of fans. Who would have thought?

 

[Hellenic]

I just wish they'd stop giving Cloud thieves outfits just because he's the main guy. Yuffie deserves to rock that shit

Well Squall won't be a thief so that got you covered when it comes around at least. In fact i think he can just be a sword wielder in all the rest of the games now except Cecil i guess? Still probably will get Cecils stuff anyway.

Imagine if EC does an FFVIII crossover. Cloud is Squall, Tifa is Rinoa, and Aerith is.... Quistis? Edea? Selphie?

Knowing SE, they'll make Tifa a Zell outfit because that's like an established pattern. It's like SE has no idea how to manage the expectations of fans. Who would have thought?

Yeah i sadly doubt they would leave Rinoa out entirely of that collab so either Tifa or Aerith has to get her probably, even though both have other fit options there already.

Tifa would basically be either Rinoa or Zell and Zell is to be the more expected one with the current trend of their choices while i do hope Aerith would get Quistis, Edea or Ultimecia instead of Rinoa, but they don't wanna be creative so likely not.

 

[Skilganon]

An FFXIII crossover would be cool. Cloud => Lightning, Tifa => Fang, Aerith => Vanille

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well Squall won't be a thief so that got you covered when it comes around at least. In fact i think he can just be a sword wielder in all the rest of the games now except Cecil i guess? Still probably will get Cecils stuff anyway.

Yeah i sadly doubt they would leave Rinoa out entirely of that collab so either Tifa or Aerith has to get her probably, even though both have other fit options there already.

Tifa would basically be either Rinoa or Zell and Zell is to be the more expected one with the current trend of their choices while i do hope Aerith would get Quistis, Edea or Ultimecia instead of Rinoa, but they don't wanna be creative so likely not.

Tifa should be Rinoa. Aerith works very well as either Quisitis or Edea.

An FFXIII crossover would be cool. Cloud => Lightning, Tifa => Fang, Aerith => Vanille

Missing the obvious trick that Aerith is Lightning, Cloud is Snow, Tifa is Serah. Yuffie can be Hope because boomerang.

 

[null]

Zack would make one hell of a Fang imho tbqh.

Also Vincent as manly Batman Irvine.

 

[Skilganon]

Also Vincent as manly Batman Irvine.

Vincent wouldn't f*ck up the assassination.

 

[Hellenic]

Vincent wouldn't f*ck up the assassination.

He would though if the target was Lucrecia.

 

[Skilganon]

Now I'm imagining Lucrecia as a sorceress bent on time compression. Is Sephiroth part of her master plan? Chaos and Omega must be involved in some way.

 

[redoak77]

So this image of the leaked officially translated Ultimania has been making the rounds. Thoughts? People have been using it as a dunk, and to be honest, I don’t know what to make of it. Is it as bad as I think it sounds?

 

[Skilganon]

I think people are trying to say it makes Cloud come off as a bit of an asshole to view this as a one-night-stand, when he should be more empathetic to Tifa.

Like, he's more focused on himself being the person to comfort Tifa, than actually comforting Tifa.

I think his feelings are appropriate given he's naive and inexperienced. This is the most physically intimate he's ever been with a woman, so it's natural to feel some type of way about it.

Fan translations had been floating around for a while, I don't know why this is coming out now as a shock.

 

[Ryeleigh]

So this image of the leaked officially translated Ultimania has been making the rounds. Thoughts? People have been using it as a dunk, and to be honest, I don’t know what to make of it. Is it as bad as I think it sounds?
View attachment 17313

Oh, so this is supposed to be the official translation? I kind of imagine that the discourse on social media has circled back to "And SENA was at it again"?

But regardless, I think the text reads weirdly? I mean, the cool hero Cloud wanted to stem from his feelings for Tifa anyway? So even if he isn't necessarily considering Tifa at that moment -- for example, "Tifa needs comfort" instead of "I am comforting Tifa" -- it still stems from his feelings for her?

The other thing is that comparison to a one-night stand? Like, so that moment has underlying sexual feelings? And I don't know if it's a translation issue or the original Japanese, but why would you compare it to a one-night stand? When they're hugging each other for comfort after having lost everything? Again? After Shinra did two massacres? Like??? Unless it's a reference to their "one-night stand" at the end of the world?

But I don't know, mostly makes me suspicious it's actually a fan translation, lol.

 

[redoak77]

I think people are trying to say it makes Cloud come off as a bit of an asshole to view this as a one-night-stand, when he should be more empathetic to Tifa.

Like, he's more focused on himself being the person to comfort Tifa, than actually comforting Tifa.

I think his feelings are appropriate given he's naive and inexperienced. This is the most physically intimate he's ever been with a woman, so it's natural to feel some type of way about it.

Fan translations had been floating around for a while, I don't know why this is coming out now as a shock.

Playing the game, it felt like a tender, heartfelt scene. With this context, it reads NOT as that; maybe even a little insidious-I mean, what the hell is the point in comparing this to a ONE NIGHT STAND? Maybe there’s some missing cultural context, but the explanation does track at all with me, IMO

Oh, so this is supposed to be the official translation? I kind of imagine that the discourse on social media has circled back to "And SENA was at it again"?

But regardless, I think the text reads weirdly? I mean, the cool hero Cloud wanted to stem from his feelings for Tifa anyway? So even if he isn't necessarily considering Tifa at that moment -- for example, "Tifa needs comfort" instead of "I am comforting Tifa" -- it still stems from his feelings for her?

The other thing is that comparison to a one-night stand? Like, so that moment has underlying sexual feelings? And I don't know if it's a translation issue or the original Japanese, but why would you compare it to a one-night stand? When they're hugging each other for comfort after having lost everything? Again? After Shinra did two massacres? Like??? Unless it's a reference to their "one-night stand" at the end of the world?

But I don't know, mostly makes me suspicious it's actually a fan translation, lol.

Yeah, it’s the official translation

 

[Maidenofwar]

I'm just quietly enjoying the CA goodies including "the pleasure he felt at spending time with Aerith" and the time they spend with each other being so "precious" building between them (this because it's been a prevalent thing on social media for some CTs to go on about how annoyed Cloud is by Aerith, like he could barely stand her and couldn't wait to get away from her), and that Cloud's heart raced while with Aerith. Oh yeah and his emotional turmoil at the thought of Aerith on a similar date with someone else. Also their c14 translation. Good times.

The CT thing is -only- a "dunk" if you think of CT as an ideal, perfect and flawless. In game it's heart warming when Cloud finally hugs Tifa but the build up was still a bit awkward to some as Cloud took his time to comfort her. Look at it this way, if Tifa was comforted by the hug in the end it still culminates in heart warming.

Like I remember a while back the discourse over the "dysfunctional" thing. Well the whole point of CT (imo) is they have a lot of growing to do. That journey has ups and downs, there are sometimes breakdowns in communications or perhaps things are communicated more clumsily than wanted. Even in part 3 I expect a break down in communications and some distance between them for a while. It's not like CA is without tension.

 

[Eerie]

And I don't know if it's a translation issue or the original Japanese, but why would you compare it to a one-night stand? When they're hugging each other for comfort after having lost everything? Again? After Shinra did two massacres? Like??? Unless it's a reference to their "one-night stand" at the end of the world?

The Japanese indeed has a sexual subtext, but it's more that he felt he crossed a line.

We've known that since the beginning, the translation is terrible yeah but what makes me laugh is that it also straight up says he has feelings for Tifa lmao. TurquoiseHammer's translation of that bit is great BTW, I remember Peko praised it.

What it also shows is that line from 2K gils... where Cloud simply wants to become a special person to Tifa, her hero, and he felt he achieved that that night. And it's still something he wants to be entering Rebirth, as Nojima reminded us.

There is a lot of growth needed from the moment we meet Cloud in Remake until the end of p3, and he's growing up fast. It's good that he makes mistakes, because he learns from them: if you look at the reunion flower he offered to Tifa trying to impress her (it's his core character) to CoT where he brings her back rare vegetables she loves to cook, there are a lot of hints through Remake and Rebirth about this particular growth and it is extremely sweet.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The CT thing is -only- a "dunk" if you think of CT as an ideal, perfect and flawless. In game it's heart warming when Cloud finally hugs Tifa but the build up was still a bit awkward to some as Cloud took his time to comfort her. Look at it this way, if Tifa was comforted by the hug in the end it still culminates in heart warming.

It's not that, at least for me.

It's that the hug happens right after Shinra has massacred Sector Seven plates. Tifa and Cloud as well have lost everything again. She's crying her heart out and Cloud finally pulls himself together enough to comfort her (and himself, I imagine). Like, it's supposed to be about tragedy and comfort, not even necessarily romance, because I don't think there's anything inherently romantic about comforting a person in grief.

So I'm honestly just wondering what was the actual thought process of comparing that moment to a one-night stand of all things, lol?

The Japanese indeed has a sexual subtext, but it's more that he felt he crossed a line.

Right, I remember that. That makes more sense to me than outright comparing it to a one-night stand, lol.

 

[null]

I feel like the appropriate word is "tryst" not one-night stand.

Yeah, it's a dunk. The kiss was a dunk. The Highwind was a dunk. The Lifestream was a dunk. Koi_bito was a dunk. The NBA All-Star weekend ain't got nothing on Tifa.

IMO that's a realistic reaction for Cloud to have. According to Nojima that is Real Cloud, IIRC, and that moment is everything Real Cloud wanted in life. He's made it. He's the man Tifa can turn to in her time of need, not to mention having her in his arms in the middle of the night. Real Cloud is a teenager after all, even with noble intentions, I'd be more surprised if he didn't feel all that hitting him like a truck.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

To boil it down to its simplest elements, the hug scene in Remake is about one friend in emotional distress, being clumsily comforted physically by another friend who is not experienced in such matters.

Are Cloud and Tifa an item after the hug? Absolutely not. Have they closed some of the distance between each other? Absolutely yes. It’s as much progress as they can make at that point in time without deviating too much from the original story.

To be honest, if we weren’t already beyond part 2 of the trilogy at this point, then I might be a little dispirited by this Ultimania text. However, as we are now post the Gold Saucer dates, I’m not really sweating it.

This Ultimania text was produced in 2021, as I understand it. Well in 2024, the creative team deemed it appropriate to completely transform the Tifa Gold Saucer date from a moment of awkward mis-connection, to a moment romance, initiated by Cloud of all people. That is an unsubtle statement of intent from my perspective that is clearly setting up the direction of travel. Why escalate the romance between Cloud and Tifa this early in the story, if the writers are only going to clumsily pull back from it later? As far as I’m aware, they’re not going to heavily deviate from the text of the Lifestream sequence in part 3 - if anything, the writers have endeavoured to better foreshadow it across this multi part series.

(I should note that I am only at the beginning of chapter 13 after all these months and have been completely diverted by the Silent Hill 2 remake, so if there is material that sinks my confidence awaiting me in the final chapters, I’m not aware of it yet!)

 

[redoak77]

To boil it down to its simplest elements, the hug scene in Remake is about one friend in emotional distress, being clumsily comforted physically by another friend who is not experienced in such matters.

Are Cloud and Tifa an item after the hug? Absolutely not. Have they closed some of the distance between each other? Absolutely yes. It’s as much progress as they can make at that point in time without deviating too much from the original story.

To be honest, if we weren’t already beyond part 2 of the trilogy at this point, then I might be a little dispirited by this Ultimania text. However, as we are now post the Gold Saucer dates, I’m not really sweating it.

This Ultimania text was produced in 2021, as I understand it. Well in 2024, the creative team deemed it appropriate to completely transform the Tifa Gold Saucer date from a moment of awkward mis-connection, to a moment romance, initiated by Cloud of all people. That is an unsubtle statement of intent from my perspective that is clearly setting up the direction of travel. Why escalate the romance between Cloud and Tifa this early in the story, if the writers are only going to clumsily pull back from it later? As far as I’m aware, they’re not going to heavily deviate from the text Lifestream sequence in part 3 - if anything, the writers have endeavoured to better foreshadow it across this multi part series.

(I should note that I am only at the beginning of chapter 13 after all these months and have been completely diverted by the Silent Hill 2 remake, so if there is material that sinks my confidence awaiting me in the final chapters, I’m not aware of it yet!)

I see what you mean. I still think it would’ve been better to show it on screen than explain in on text, in a book, a good four years after the fact.