SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Skilganon]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

Cloud is usually the victim of that, unfortunately. Tifa and Aerith often catch negative projections put on them. TIfa for her appearance/outfit and Aerith because she’s very forward and sometimes goes against the energy in the room. Cloud gets it because his thoughts/emotions aren’t always in plain sight.

People sometimes forget that we’re dealing with Final Fantasy. It romanticizes almost everything involved in any type of relationship. The party aren’t just friends, they’re like family. It doesnt get into ranking love, but it does keep them distinct.

Cloud says it himself, he cherishes everything. That doesn’t mean he treats everyone the exact same, but he doesn’t treat any of it as worthless.

Thats why it’s ripe for shipping: beautiful characters who all treat eachother lovingly. Gorgeous villains hating to the point of obsession. The shipping brain can turn a glass of water to the nectar of the gods if it so chooses. That’s why controlling it is a waste of energy.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Their scenes that focus more on them being friends are super cute, though. Really, there should've been more of those -- but also with everyone (which is a separate issue).

I'm still hoping for a proper Cloud and Zack interaction in Part 3. Manifesting from the universe.

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

I once read one person say that "the essence of shipping is egocentric people self-inserting in fictional characters and imposing their feelings on them based on their mindset and reading comprehension". Which, tbh, was rather accurate, lol.

But one of the things that drive me up the walls in these discussions is how one side -- usually the losing side -- discusses these characters as if they're real people and those dastardly authors and other fans just maliciously keep them from fulfilling their real selves. For example, "Aerith is allowed to move on". Like, yeah, sure. She's fictional. Maybe there's, like, an actual narrative reason why she hasn't moved on? Or why isn't the discussion ever "Aerith is allowed to live"? Or "Aerith is allowed to have feelings", including feelings that one might personally disagree with? Why is it always that she's "allowed to move on" from that pesky wrench Zack? But totally incidentally, not Cloud.

Or how "Tifa is allowed to move on" from Cloud? As if either girl wasted their life pining away for their love interests? They both had fully realised lives. They just happened to have feelings for one guy (mostly), instead of hopping from one guy or girl to the next. Besides, for me FF7 is basically a shonen and you can expect a certain level of idealization in a shonen. If someone wants soap opera level relationships, there are plenty of other stories for that, lol?

Aside from that, talking about fictional characters as if they're real is such a pointless activity so it just annoys me on a personal level too, lol.

 

[Empyrea]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

I'm of the opinion that just as authors write what they know, readers/the audience interpret based on their beliefs/what they know. I don't think treating the characters as if they're real is automatically a bad thing. But it should have limits, otherwise the discussion devolves into projecting onto the characters and the whole point being thrown out the window.

That said, I agree with Ryeleigh that the problem is more what said projection leads to and what kind of points are made. At that point, it feels like it's just a poorly disguised attempt at being mad you (general you) didn't get what you want out of the narrative and fishing for sympathy (or something along that line) from others.

I'm still hoping for a proper Cloud and Zack interaction in Part 3. Manifesting from the universe.

You and I both!

 

[Ryeleigh]

That said, I agree with Ryeleigh that the problem is more what said projection leads to and what kind of points are made. At that point, it feels like it's just a poorly disguised attempt at being mad you (general you) didn't get what you want out of the narrative and fishing sympathy (or something along that line) from others.

With "either girl is allowed to move on" discussion, it feels more like using high-minded rhetoric to conceal that it's really just about shipping. I mean, when the point (totally incidentally) leads to invalidating canon ships and indirectly validating fanon ships (somehow), then, weeeell, it's pretty obvious what the real point is, lol.

You and I both!

With the power of friendship and our shared wishes, let's manifest it into existence! XD

 

[pxl_pushr]

“X character is allowed to move on” has always been an odd argument to me when talking fiction. Any of these characters are “allowed” to move on, and in many ways they do, and don’t.

For example, Barret has shown no interest in finding himself another wife. Could he? I think he could. He’s certainly a good looking guy, big hearted, and a great father. He hasn’t though, because his heart is full taking care of Marlene and watching over the younger members of Avalanche.

So when that’s said about Aerith, I find it kinda funny because it seems to me that the ReTrilogy is taking that mentality and gently correcting it into “keep moving forward” as in, a love lost isn’t necessarily “replaced” by a new love of the same kind, but forming new bonds and finding new wonders can help dull the ache. Keep growing as a person, keep reaching out to others, and keep living to your fullest.

Maybe you didn’t need a new lover as much as you needed a family of friends to love.

Sappy rant over lol

 

[Shadowfox]

Maybe... the real koibitos were the nakamas we made along the way.

 

[Skilganon]

Maybe... the real koibitos were the nakamas we made along the way.

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Empyrea]

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

They shouldn't be. In fact, I'd say media in general lacks examples of lovers also being friends (far as I know). But then you see the fandom, and they'd rather you think that they are mutually exclusive.

 

[Hellenic]

Aside from that, talking about fictional characters as if they're real is such a pointless activity so it just annoys me on a personal level too, lol.

Empyrea already went into this but i'll reply anyway.

They do make such an amazing job at realizing these characters that they do feel real and that's honestly a very good thing, at least for my personal enjoyment of characters in stories, but as much as they feel real, they are still characters that don't have their own agency to adjust the course they are set on.
So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

 

[Ryeleigh]

They do make such an amazing job at realizing these characters that they do feel real and that's honestly a very good thing, at least for my personal enjoyment of characters in stories, but as much as they feel real, they are still characters that don't have their own agency to adjust the course they are set on.

I also think that good characterization goes beyond just realness? I probably can't explain this very well but I think it's also, like, characters being compelling, dynamic, active, etc? Because there certainly are other types of characters who, technically, also feel very much "real" but actually watching them feels a lot like listening to nails on a chalkboard, lol.

So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

Tbh, I do think that most of them actually get it. It's just certain parts of fandoms have adopted rhetoric that sounds high-minded but it's actual purpose is just to make themselves sound better and the opposition sound "bad".

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

Exactly this, if Aer was a real person of course she was allowed to move on , but she is not and she is not written to move on. People need to accept what it is, and if they do not like it , they should move on (pun intended) to other game or make their own fanfic/game.

 

[GamerSkull]

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

 

[Ryeleigh]

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

Or that there never seems to be any mention of Aerith moving on from her brief and confused feelings for Cloud? XD

EDIT: And when I say feelings, I don't mean all her feelings. I specifically mean the romantic/romantic-adjacent feelings. Wanted to make that clear just in case.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm always happy to read desperate nonsense, but we've simply got to have standards. It takes more than a measly chest tease and a Ron Burgundy stache to make Claudia Strife drop her apron. I'll fight the Brian bros, the Zangan bros, the Vincent sisters, and anyone else hollering that low effort cope.

Listen, they are getting absolutely desperate to invalidate CT SOMEHOW.

I also think that good characterization goes beyond just realness? I probably can't explain this very well but I think it's also, like, characters being compelling, dynamic, active, etc? Because there certainly are other types of characters who, technically, also feel very much "real" but actually watching them feels a lot like listening to nails on a chalkboard, lol.


Tbh, I do think that most of them actually get it. It's just certain parts of fandoms have adopted rhetoric that sounds high-minded but it's actual purpose is just to make themselves sound better and the opposition sound "bad".

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

The best response to "Aerith is allowed to move on is" She is, she should. She didn't."

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

Well of course it wouldn't apply to Cloud, because applying it to Cloud doesn't help the ship. "If it helps the ship, it's allowed, if not, it's invalid" is a fundamental rule for 'CA is endgame' shippers.

Also, on the topic of the characters being 'real' we literally have a word for this, and it's verisimilitude. It specifically means "seeming to be real" while recognizing that what you are discussing is not.

And this applies to all characters, mind, even ones based on real people. Alexander Hamilton actually existed, but the Hamilton of Hamilton is not real. He has verisimilitude, but he's a character.

 

[AncientGrim]

I am still holding out for another novella from Nojima in the same vein as Traces of Two Pasts, but one focusing on Cloud and Zack respectively.

It’s always interesting whenever things go back to Cloud’s POV pre Nibelheim Incident, much like in 2000 Gil To Become A Hero, where it was made painfully transparent again what Cloud’s most primary motivations are. As if anyone with a clear grasp and understanding of Cloud’s character needed further reminding of just where Tifa belongs in his concerns.

Which probably goes to explain why it’s in the same IGNORE category as Crisis Core for a certain subset of the fandom.

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

 

[Empyrea]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

It doesn't, yeah. I think it's been said before, but the thing is, most extreme shippers argue backwards. That is, they form a conclusion, then explain every detail using it.

It's incredibly bizarre.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

It helps explains Aerith's actions and motivations to understand that she is trying and failing to move on from her recently deceased love, something we are reminded of in Rebirth. It's technically irrelevant to Cloud's decision, but from a storytelling experience it does help to make things on her end clearer.

It doesn't, yeah. I think it's been said before, but the thing is, most extreme shippers argue backwards. That is, they form a conclusion, then explain every detail using it.

It's incredibly bizarre.

Yes, they absolutely do. This sort of thinking is what lead to the rebound kiss cope and 'holding hands is more romantic in Japan' copes, as the CA were searching for any excuse to avoid admitting that the CT kiss was actually about C and T's romantic feelings.

 

[Wanderer]

The unfortunate truth about shippers and shipping, in general, is that most shippers have not played the games, they just watch Let's Plays and streamers play them and form their opinions through Twitter threads.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

The unfortunate truth about shippers and shipping, in general, is that most shippers have not played the games, they just watch Let's Plays and streamers play them and form their opinions through Twitter threads.

True. The irony that the creator of the main source of gaslight , misinformation , mischaracterisation , shitty takes and even more idiotic theories that poisons the FF7 fandom was created by someone that admits never played the games and only watches them on youtube/streamers.

 

[Wanderer]

True. The irony that the creator of the main source of gaslight , misinformation , mischaracterisation , shitty takes and even more idiotic theories that poisons the FF7 fandom was created by someone that admits never played the games and only watches them on youtube/streamers.

This is why I am all for a little bit of gatekeeping; I am not saying anything like you had to play the black-label version of the game on the original Playstation with a Sony Trinitron back in 1997 otherwise, you’re not a fan, but people like these should be kept out of the discussions about any factor of the game not just the love triangle.

 

[pxl_pushr]

This is why I am all for a little bit of gatekeeping; I am not saying anything like you had to play the black-label version of the game on the original Playstation with a Sony Trinitron back in 1997 otherwise, you’re not a fan, but people like these should be kept out of the discussions about any factor of the game not just the love triangle.

A minor concern I have is that splitting FF7’s story into 3, chunky games may actually harm longterm interest. A single, well-paced game is much easier to recommend than purchasing 3 full games for 1 story. The temptation to “speedrun” consumption may make partial consumers more prevalent.

As a fan, I enjoy this much game in a world I already like. Wonder if it’ll be accessible to people only partially familiar though.

 

[Wanderer]

A minor concern I have is that splitting FF7’s story into 3, chunky games may actually harm longterm interest. A single, well-paced game is much easier to recommend than purchasing 3 full games for 1 story. The temptation to “speedrun” consumption may make partial consumers more prevalent.

As a fan, I enjoy this much game in a world I already like. Wonder if it’ll be accessible to people only partially familiar though.

Not really. tbh, people consume the Dark Souls trilogy and other video game trilogies back to back those who are interested and hooked will play all the way through.

 

[Eerie]

Besides that, I think it was Kitase who said that a lot of people who played FFVII OG never actually finished it (I guessed they stopped at Aerith's death) so they missed disc 2 which is arguably the best of what FFVII has to offer, story-wise. And it'll be encompassed all in one game for p3 so they do hope that a lot of people are going to play it to get the full experience (but it makes me quite nervous because damn, they have to stick the landing, and I'm not talking about only ships or LT here).