SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Skilganon]

For me, I couldn't tell you how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are (or Cloud and Aerith for that matter). The reason I like CT more is because of their shared backstory and the reveals in the life stream scene.

But even looking at the compilation as a whole, I think we are lacking scenes of them being happy together as a couple. And the games have already given scenes of CA being happy in a couple-like context. There's the rooftop walk, the wall-market section, the dream-date.

With CT, there's the constant angst, the push-pull created by Cloud's alienation and memory issues. There's the physically intimate moments and the shyness. But when do we see them just be happy together? I don't know what that would look like. If you take away the drama, what's left?

 

[Eerie]

I do think the Compilation is lacking in the showing CT as a happy couple, which is kinda normal since the Compilation focuses on problems to solve. But I did think there was some happy CT in CoT, though maybe not enough, and TKaA voiced Cloud’s happiness.

The wallmarket wasn’t about CA as a couple, it was about them wanting to save Tifa. And during the Honey Bee Inn scene, she gets excited when he acts the most like Zack so yeah…

The dream date still ends with Aerith coming to the conclusion that they’re not a couple, and even during the date everything turns wrong so I’m not sure where you’re seeing the happiness because there’s more happiness coming from Cloud in both GS CT dates in that yes, she was the one he wanted to be with.

I don’t really see the rooftop as a couple thing, they’re barely meeting each other - again a contrast with Tifa showing Cloud’s Stargazer Heights, if you follow them from 7th Heaven. They do have a lot to relearn from each other, which they have been doing since tho. And yes I wish they had chosen the faces Cloud makes off camera there but it’s something already that he was modelled that way but they chose not to show it.

Overall I will say it: the pretty CA scenes are for a lot of them very superficial and mostly about Aerith, not about Cloud, while the CT scenes are about themselves as a couple or hints about their future lives, or about Cloud. This is why Rebirth feels extremely CT, it’s because they are being built as the canon pair, and they are needed for the intimate plot to take place. Now it is true that after the Lifestream scene in p3, I do hope to see more PDA and a non skippable date, as it was hinted at during Remake.

 

[Ryeleigh]

For me, I couldn't tell you how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are (or Cloud and Aerith for that matter). The reason I like CT more is because of their shared backstory and the reveals in the life stream scene.

But even looking at the compilation as a whole, I think we are lacking scenes of them being happy together as a couple. And the games have already given scenes of CA being happy in a couple-like context. There's the rooftop walk, the wall-market section, the dream-date.

With CT, there's the constant angst, the push-pull created by Cloud's alienation and memory issues. There's the physically intimate moments and the shyness. But when do we see them just be happy together? I don't know what that would look like. If you take away the drama, what's left?

I think the devs have shown that in Re-Trilogy pretty well, though? I'm not sure if I still remember all the instances but there's Cloud relentlessly flirting with Tifa as soon as he gets back to her after the first bombing. For example, going around Sector 7, their talk in Cloud's room, the train tunnel, the Costa del Sol gym quest (which was a big OUCH right after Aerith's fashion quest), the frog quest, etc.

I also think that the best way the devs have shown CT's compatibility is how Tifa respects Cloud's boundaries. It's honestly very obvious when compared with the other girls. It's also hilarious because I think Cloud wants Tifa all over his boundaries, lmao.

In contrast, Cloud was still pretty standoffish and huffy with Aerith in the rooftop walk and the wall-market section so I can't say they were "happy". Aerith, maybe? Cloud, not so much. And even in Rebirth, he still gets that way with her when she's pushing their dates to be romantic. Which is why I keep saying that their most romantic moments are, ironically, when they're friends.

Not sure if this reply answered anything, though?

 

[Hellenic]

For me, I couldn't tell you how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are (or Cloud and Aerith for that matter). The reason I like CT more is because of their shared backstory and the reveals in the life stream scene.

But even looking at the compilation as a whole, I think we are lacking scenes of them being happy together as a couple. And the games have already given scenes of CA being happy in a couple-like context. There's the rooftop walk, the wall-market section, the dream-date.

With CT, there's the constant angst, the push-pull created by Cloud's alienation and memory issues. There's the physically intimate moments and the shyness. But when do we see them just be happy together? I don't know what that would look like. If you take away the drama, what's left?

They do lack some actual chill time between each other, which is why i do hope they can fulfill that date night they promised to each other in Remake. Perhaps in Wutai if we get some fun times there. Not sure if there are any other places where we could fit in something like this anymore though.

There's also all the teasing from Andrea wanting Tifa on stage and even Cloud suggesting she could be on stage sometime so i'd love to get some actual followup to all of this finally in the third game, but we'll see i guess.

 

[pxl_pushr]

For me, I couldn't tell you how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are (or Cloud and Aerith for that matter). The reason I like CT more is because of their shared backstory and the reveals in the life stream scene.

But even looking at the compilation as a whole, I think we are lacking scenes of them being happy together as a couple. And the games have already given scenes of CA being happy in a couple-like context. There's the rooftop walk, the wall-market section, the dream-date.

With CT, there's the constant angst, the push-pull created by Cloud's alienation and memory issues. There's the physically intimate moments and the shyness. But when do we see them just be happy together? I don't know what that would look like. If you take away the drama, what's left?

Part of the issue is that a story worth writing requires conflict. Nojima initially wanted to write a mundane slice of life story for Cloud and Tifa’s life with their family, but once it became a full on production more needed to be done.

I imagine part 3 of ReTrilogy will give us some view into how Cloud and Tifa interact when what looms over them is a more external threat than internal angst. Rebirth kind of gets there since I think it says a lot that twice Tifa and Cloud commit to figuring things out between them and getting to know eachother better. That’s big for Cloud who usually a steel trap with his emotions and thoughts.

All said, I’d gladly take some lighthearted happy scenes between Cloud and Tifa. Some of my favorite fanart of them is just snippets of their domestic life together. I’m one of those hoping for the ending to Part 3 including those views into their future, that they’re okay after everything and I can imagine the details of that peaceful life for them.

 

[Empyrea]

For me, I couldn't tell you how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are (or Cloud and Aerith for that matter). The reason I like CT more is because of their shared backstory and the reveals in the life stream scene.

But even looking at the compilation as a whole, I think we are lacking scenes of them being happy together as a couple. And the games have already given scenes of CA being happy in a couple-like context. There's the rooftop walk, the wall-market section, the dream-date.

With CT, there's the constant angst, the push-pull created by Cloud's alienation and memory issues. There's the physically intimate moments and the shyness. But when do we see them just be happy together? I don't know what that would look like. If you take away the drama, what's left?

I personally found this was caused by the trend in the 90s where the writers seemed to focus more on the mutual pining and just ending the story when feelings were confessed. I was never a fan of that.

That said, I always found the CA moments a little too on the nose about it, only to then backtrack by showing Cloud being disinterested (or going along, at best), with only Aerith doing most of the leg work. It's part of why I could never quite see the appeal of that pairing.

Their scenes that focus more on them being friends are super cute, though. Really, there should've been more of those -- but also with everyone (which is a separate issue).

 

[Skilganon]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

Cloud is usually the victim of that, unfortunately. Tifa and Aerith often catch negative projections put on them. TIfa for her appearance/outfit and Aerith because she’s very forward and sometimes goes against the energy in the room. Cloud gets it because his thoughts/emotions aren’t always in plain sight.

People sometimes forget that we’re dealing with Final Fantasy. It romanticizes almost everything involved in any type of relationship. The party aren’t just friends, they’re like family. It doesnt get into ranking love, but it does keep them distinct.

Cloud says it himself, he cherishes everything. That doesn’t mean he treats everyone the exact same, but he doesn’t treat any of it as worthless.

Thats why it’s ripe for shipping: beautiful characters who all treat eachother lovingly. Gorgeous villains hating to the point of obsession. The shipping brain can turn a glass of water to the nectar of the gods if it so chooses. That’s why controlling it is a waste of energy.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Their scenes that focus more on them being friends are super cute, though. Really, there should've been more of those -- but also with everyone (which is a separate issue).

I'm still hoping for a proper Cloud and Zack interaction in Part 3. Manifesting from the universe.

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

I once read one person say that "the essence of shipping is egocentric people self-inserting in fictional characters and imposing their feelings on them based on their mindset and reading comprehension". Which, tbh, was rather accurate, lol.

But one of the things that drive me up the walls in these discussions is how one side -- usually the losing side -- discusses these characters as if they're real people and those dastardly authors and other fans just maliciously keep them from fulfilling their real selves. For example, "Aerith is allowed to move on". Like, yeah, sure. She's fictional. Maybe there's, like, an actual narrative reason why she hasn't moved on? Or why isn't the discussion ever "Aerith is allowed to live"? Or "Aerith is allowed to have feelings", including feelings that one might personally disagree with? Why is it always that she's "allowed to move on" from that pesky wrench Zack? But totally incidentally, not Cloud.

Or how "Tifa is allowed to move on" from Cloud? As if either girl wasted their life pining away for their love interests? They both had fully realised lives. They just happened to have feelings for one guy (mostly), instead of hopping from one guy or girl to the next. Besides, for me FF7 is basically a shonen and you can expect a certain level of idealization in a shonen. If someone wants soap opera level relationships, there are plenty of other stories for that, lol?

Aside from that, talking about fictional characters as if they're real is such a pointless activity so it just annoys me on a personal level too, lol.

 

[Empyrea]

Whenever I see discussions of the LTD on different platforms, it always seems like fans think of these characters as if they are real people, without even realizing it. As if they know the characters better than their creators. The creators are keeping the characters from doing what they really want to do.

This is part of why compatibility and psycho-analysis is often used as an argument. It's also a bit of fans projecting their own desires onto the characters.

I'm of the opinion that just as authors write what they know, readers/the audience interpret based on their beliefs/what they know. I don't think treating the characters as if they're real is automatically a bad thing. But it should have limits, otherwise the discussion devolves into projecting onto the characters and the whole point being thrown out the window.

That said, I agree with Ryeleigh that the problem is more what said projection leads to and what kind of points are made. At that point, it feels like it's just a poorly disguised attempt at being mad you (general you) didn't get what you want out of the narrative and fishing for sympathy (or something along that line) from others.

I'm still hoping for a proper Cloud and Zack interaction in Part 3. Manifesting from the universe.

You and I both!

 

[Ryeleigh]

That said, I agree with Ryeleigh that the problem is more what said projection leads to and what kind of points are made. At that point, it feels like it's just a poorly disguised attempt at being mad you (general you) didn't get what you want out of the narrative and fishing sympathy (or something along that line) from others.

With "either girl is allowed to move on" discussion, it feels more like using high-minded rhetoric to conceal that it's really just about shipping. I mean, when the point (totally incidentally) leads to invalidating canon ships and indirectly validating fanon ships (somehow), then, weeeell, it's pretty obvious what the real point is, lol.

You and I both!

With the power of friendship and our shared wishes, let's manifest it into existence! XD

 

[pxl_pushr]

“X character is allowed to move on” has always been an odd argument to me when talking fiction. Any of these characters are “allowed” to move on, and in many ways they do, and don’t.

For example, Barret has shown no interest in finding himself another wife. Could he? I think he could. He’s certainly a good looking guy, big hearted, and a great father. He hasn’t though, because his heart is full taking care of Marlene and watching over the younger members of Avalanche.

So when that’s said about Aerith, I find it kinda funny because it seems to me that the ReTrilogy is taking that mentality and gently correcting it into “keep moving forward” as in, a love lost isn’t necessarily “replaced” by a new love of the same kind, but forming new bonds and finding new wonders can help dull the ache. Keep growing as a person, keep reaching out to others, and keep living to your fullest.

Maybe you didn’t need a new lover as much as you needed a family of friends to love.

Sappy rant over lol

 

[Shadowfox]

Maybe... the real koibitos were the nakamas we made along the way.

 

[Skilganon]

Maybe... the real koibitos were the nakamas we made along the way.

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Empyrea]

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

They shouldn't be. In fact, I'd say media in general lacks examples of lovers also being friends (far as I know). But then you see the fandom, and they'd rather you think that they are mutually exclusive.

 

[Hellenic]

Aside from that, talking about fictional characters as if they're real is such a pointless activity so it just annoys me on a personal level too, lol.

Empyrea already went into this but i'll reply anyway.

They do make such an amazing job at realizing these characters that they do feel real and that's honestly a very good thing, at least for my personal enjoyment of characters in stories, but as much as they feel real, they are still characters that don't have their own agency to adjust the course they are set on.
So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

 

[Ryeleigh]

They do make such an amazing job at realizing these characters that they do feel real and that's honestly a very good thing, at least for my personal enjoyment of characters in stories, but as much as they feel real, they are still characters that don't have their own agency to adjust the course they are set on.

I also think that good characterization goes beyond just realness? I probably can't explain this very well but I think it's also, like, characters being compelling, dynamic, active, etc? Because there certainly are other types of characters who, technically, also feel very much "real" but actually watching them feels a lot like listening to nails on a chalkboard, lol.

So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

Tbh, I do think that most of them actually get it. It's just certain parts of fandoms have adopted rhetoric that sounds high-minded but it's actual purpose is just to make themselves sound better and the opposition sound "bad".

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

So as much as people say that Aerith is allowed to move on, she's just not really given the capability to do that in the constraints of the writing and some people fail to separate these aspects of written characters versus real people.

Exactly this, if Aer was a real person of course she was allowed to move on , but she is not and she is not written to move on. People need to accept what it is, and if they do not like it , they should move on (pun intended) to other game or make their own fanfic/game.

 

[GamerSkull]

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

 

[Ryeleigh]

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

Or that there never seems to be any mention of Aerith moving on from her brief and confused feelings for Cloud? XD

EDIT: And when I say feelings, I don't mean all her feelings. I specifically mean the romantic/romantic-adjacent feelings. Wanted to make that clear just in case.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm always happy to read desperate nonsense, but we've simply got to have standards. It takes more than a measly chest tease and a Ron Burgundy stache to make Claudia Strife drop her apron. I'll fight the Brian bros, the Zangan bros, the Vincent sisters, and anyone else hollering that low effort cope.

Listen, they are getting absolutely desperate to invalidate CT SOMEHOW.

I also think that good characterization goes beyond just realness? I probably can't explain this very well but I think it's also, like, characters being compelling, dynamic, active, etc? Because there certainly are other types of characters who, technically, also feel very much "real" but actually watching them feels a lot like listening to nails on a chalkboard, lol.


Tbh, I do think that most of them actually get it. It's just certain parts of fandoms have adopted rhetoric that sounds high-minded but it's actual purpose is just to make themselves sound better and the opposition sound "bad".

"Aerith is allowed to move on" is honestly just disguised shipping nonsense because what it boils down to is invalidating ZA. But it is also very specifically worded to make people feel/appear bad for shipping her with Zack as if they (and the devs) are somehow keeping her locked in a past relationship against her will.

The best response to "Aerith is allowed to move on is" She is, she should. She didn't."

Saying Aerith is allowed to move on has always been to invalidate ZA and nothing more. Especially since it never seems to apply to Cloud.

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack but it’s supposedly peak romance for Cloud to be pining after a dead woman for the rest of his life…

Well of course it wouldn't apply to Cloud, because applying it to Cloud doesn't help the ship. "If it helps the ship, it's allowed, if not, it's invalid" is a fundamental rule for 'CA is endgame' shippers.

Also, on the topic of the characters being 'real' we literally have a word for this, and it's verisimilitude. It specifically means "seeming to be real" while recognizing that what you are discussing is not.

And this applies to all characters, mind, even ones based on real people. Alexander Hamilton actually existed, but the Hamilton of Hamilton is not real. He has verisimilitude, but he's a character.

 

[AncientGrim]

I am still holding out for another novella from Nojima in the same vein as Traces of Two Pasts, but one focusing on Cloud and Zack respectively.

It’s always interesting whenever things go back to Cloud’s POV pre Nibelheim Incident, much like in 2000 Gil To Become A Hero, where it was made painfully transparent again what Cloud’s most primary motivations are. As if anyone with a clear grasp and understanding of Cloud’s character needed further reminding of just where Tifa belongs in his concerns.

Which probably goes to explain why it’s in the same IGNORE category as Crisis Core for a certain subset of the fandom.

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

 

[Empyrea]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

It doesn't, yeah. I think it's been said before, but the thing is, most extreme shippers argue backwards. That is, they form a conclusion, then explain every detail using it.

It's incredibly bizarre.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think it really matters whether Aerith moved on from Zack or not. Cloud's feelings are his own. Even if she does move on, it doesn't change how Cloud feels. With all we've seen from Remake and Rebirth, it's getting much more difficult to misinterpret Cloud's affections.

It helps explains Aerith's actions and motivations to understand that she is trying and failing to move on from her recently deceased love, something we are reminded of in Rebirth. It's technically irrelevant to Cloud's decision, but from a storytelling experience it does help to make things on her end clearer.

It doesn't, yeah. I think it's been said before, but the thing is, most extreme shippers argue backwards. That is, they form a conclusion, then explain every detail using it.

It's incredibly bizarre.

Yes, they absolutely do. This sort of thinking is what lead to the rebound kiss cope and 'holding hands is more romantic in Japan' copes, as the CA were searching for any excuse to avoid admitting that the CT kiss was actually about C and T's romantic feelings.