Well Cleriths do have the "undying feelings" quote, but it seems that the simply greater number of Cloti lines and references throughout all the official materials overpower it.
Except "undying feelings" in itself isn't inherently romantic. Undying feelings of guilt, regret, friendship, affection, love, sadness, remorse...all apply. As anyone that lost someone dear knows those emotions are never-ending and yes, undying. The rest of AVALANCHE share those "undying feelings" as well, as is evident by their ribbons. However, Cloud's guilt is magnified on a multitude of levels.
The first and primary one being that he was responsible for her--very specifically. HE was HER bodyguard. Not boyfriend, not teammate, not partner. He was her protector and in a very real sense he did let her die. So yeah, he has intensified feelings. No doubt, but romantic? No. That would make everything he struggles for in ACC and beyond paltry and trivial and pointless.
Second, I'm sure he has mixed feelings about taking on the persona of her dead lover. I mean, add insult to injury, man... **ahem**
Basically, we need a kissing scene between Cloud and Tifa. The face stroking wasn't enough so a big-deal kissing scene would be needed to topple the opposition. Not like we'll ever get it though because I personally can't ever see Cloud and Tifa making out like Tidus and Yuna did.
I don't think even a full on sex scene would sway some of the die-hard shippers, so a kissing scene won't cut it. In fact, we HAVE a sexual relationship established between Cloud and Tifa and its still being denied... so a little tonsil twister won't cut it.
If compilation isn't enough, then those still unsure or "clerith is canon" supporters will never be satisfied. Because as I stated above, nothing is implied, it's all there. Factual and stated.
Cleriths can toss around "hints of" and "ifs" and "buts" all they want, but the bottom line is that nowhere in ALL of compilation is it stated that Cloud harbors romantic love for Aerith, as it does repeatedly state and show he has for Tifa.
Except "undying feelings" in itself isn't inherently romantic. Undying feelings of guilt, regret, friendship, affection, love, sadness, remorse...all apply. As anyone that lost someone dear knows those emotions are never-ending and yes, undying.
The first and primary one being that he was responsible for her--very specifically. HE was HER bodyguard. Not boyfriend, not teammate, not partner. He was her protector and in a very real sense he did let her die. So yeah, he has intensified feelings. No doubt, but romantic? No. That would make everything he struggles for in ACC and beyond paltry and trivial and pointless.
As I've said before "undying feelings" is usually used in reference to romantic feelings in literature. As soon as someone says "undying feelings" to me that's immediately what I think and I start to wonder about the romance in the backstory.
Afterall, I could also argue that the "mutual feelings" line for Cloti is not in reference to anything romantic as mutual feelings can also be of friendship, dissapointment, hate, even disgust and so forth. But of course, "mutual feelings" is usually used in reference to romantic feelings and when you consider Cloud and Tifa's history it makes the most sense that romantic feelings is indeed what the line is talking about.
Now what I'm trying to point out here is how the above logic should also be applied to the "undying feelings" line for Aerith. Yes, it could be guilt but it is not completely out of the window that it could also be romantic feelings. Aerith loved Cloud and Jenova-influenced Cloud arguably fancied her back (afterall he had taken on some of Zack's persona, who definitely did love her back) and it's evident that Cloud didn't completely lose his attachment to Aerith once he was himself again, even if this true him was not the one who orginally had feelings for her.
The rest of AVALANCHE share those "undying feelings" as well, as is evident by their ribbons.
You're talking about the sharing a bed issue right? I'm not sure I want to go into that again but it is debatable, not fact. (But just about one of the only things that isn't?)
I don't think even a full on sex scene would sway some of the die-hard shippers, so a kissing scene won't cut it.
If compilation isn't enough, then those still unsure or "clerith is canon" supporters will never be satisfied. Because as I stated above, nothing is implied, it's all there. Factual and stated.
It's been said before and shall be again- Cloud and Tifa getting married and having blatant sex on screen in the chapel would not satisfy the rabid shippers, just as the marriage of Harry and Ginny and Hermi going after Ron didn't satisfy the Harmonians.
Is the original Japanese word they used the same? Does it have common romantic implications?
Afterall, I could also argue that the "mutual feelings" line for Cloti is not in reference to anything romantic as mutual feelings can also be of friendship, dissapointment, hate, even disgust and so forth. But of course, "mutual feelings" is usually used in reference to romantic feelings and when you consider Cloud and Tifa's history it makes the most sense that romantic feelings is indeed what the line is talking about.
Exactly. With C/T it makes actual sense. With Cloud and Aerith, taking "undying feelings" as romantic ones comes out of nowhere. Cloud has never shown any indication of romantic love for Aerith. Possibly interest if you made choices like that when you had control over him during the first disc, but how does it make sense to deduce from that line that he has eternal love for her?
How do we get mutual feelings of friendship, or the other ones you mentioned, from the LS and HW events? How in the world? Getting intimate couldn't possibly confirm mutual feelings of the negative examples you gave, and cuddling, sleeping together to confirm mutual feelings of friendship is bizarre. In context, it doesn't make sense. And they've been friends the whole game.
Show me where. "Undying feelings" is a description of lingering emotions that MUST be taken in context, so please, show me where it usually means love or romantic interest. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but considering I have a minor in Lit. I'd like to know where this logic stems from. I apparently missed that class.
As soon as someone says "undying feelings" to me that's immediately what I think and I start to wonder about the romance in the backstory.
Ah, nevermind... It's not a general consensus, but how you chose to view the quote. Okay, then.
Afterall, I could also argue that the "mutual feelings" line for Cloti is not in reference to anything romantic as mutual feelings can also be of friendship, dissapointment, hate, even disgust and so forth. But of course, "mutual feelings" is usually used in reference to romantic feelings
The bold portion above. CONTEXT and comprehension are key elements here.
Now what I'm trying to point out here is how the above logic should also be applied to the "undying feelings" line for Aerith. Yes, it could be guilt but it is not completely out of the window that it could also be romantic feelings.
Yes, yes it IS completely out the window that it's romantic. Tender? Absolutely? Loving? For sure. Eternal "OMG" everlasting love? No. And I'm not saying those undying feelings are solely guilt. He cared for her, absolutely, and that remains as well. Without a doubt. It's just not in the floating pink hearts kind of way.
There you have it. Aerith loved Cloud (although I find the level and genuineness of that "love" highly debatable based on compilation and what we KNOW now.)
and Jenova-influenced Cloud arguably fancied her back (afterall he had taken on some of Zack's persona, who definitely did love her back) and it's evident that Cloud didn't completely lose his attachment to Aerith once he was himself again, even if this true him was not the one who orginally had feelings for her.
No one is saying he has no feelings for her. No one at all. In fact, everyone agrees that he's damn torn up over her death, and in fact, carries a major soft spot for her. The contention is whether or not he harbors romantic longing and the answer to that is no.
Uh, yeah actually. The SAME quote where Clerith's get Cloud's undying love.
Nomura:
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
"Also" implies a shared emotion. In no way are his emotions distinctly different than the other AVALANCHE members (except in guilt and responsibility as is shown in ACC). The ribbons on each party member should testify to their commitment to Aerith's memory. 2 years later and they are ALL wearing one.
You're talking about the sharing a bed issue right? I'm not sure I want to go into that again but it is debatable, not fact. (But just about one of the only things that isn't?)
Even before the ridiculous debates about sleeping arrangements in ACC we have the option of openly admitting to sleeping with Tifa, referring to her as girlfriend, and the definitive sexual scene under the Highwind.
A youtard as far as I can tell. But apparently it goes back further than that.
Also FHS. Your like the bees knees with your last couple post.
Now I was thinking about games that give you options and canon. So FF7 gives the players a lot of choices on the first disk. Needless to say these end up being mostly meaningless in the long run. But lets just assume they are not. And of course the three two version of the Highwind scene.
So you have all these choices. It is a choose your own adventure book!!!! But even if the game had multiple endings such as say Knights of the Old Republic it wouldn't matter. Now KOTOR gives you the option of being a man or a woman. Romancing one of 3 people. And the option to be good or evil. You are given a lot of personal freedom. But in the end the canon version is Male Revan, lightside.
Your personal preferences and choices do not override what lucasarts considers the real version of the story.
Now take FFVII. It does give the player choice. But as been stated. It's mostly an illusion. There is only one ending for the game. The only thing that you can control that is 'real' Cloud is the highwind scene.
But even then if you somehow take the low version as rejection (or even the high one if your a moron shipper). The follow up stories show Cloud and Tifa living together and starting a family. So guess what. You preferred Aerith. You were a jerk to Tifa. You got the 'low' HW version. AND CLOUD STILL ENDS UP WITH TIFA.
Guess what? Your input didn't change what the true story was. It just gave you the illusion of control. You are not important as a storyteller.
I was a female darkside follower who lezed it up in KOTOR. But I know that it is just my personal enjoyment. I didn't threaten to bomb lucasarts if they talked about male LS Revan.
Uh, yeah actually. The SAME quote where Clerith's get Cloud's undying love.
Nomura:
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
"Also" implies a shared emotion. In no way are his emotions distinctly different than the other AVALANCHE members (except in guilt and responsibility as is shown in ACC). The ribbons on each party member should testify to their commitment to Aerith's memory. 2 years later and they are ALL wearing one.
Even before the ridiculous debates about sleeping arrangements in ACC we have the option of openly admitting to sleeping with Tifa, referring to her as girlfriend, and the definitive sexual scene under the Highwind.
I do wonder why they didn't put anything "romantic" in AC/ACC thought. I mean, if they had sex under the Highwind, why can't they even embrace eachother or something? I know Cloud was emo and all.. And they were fighting. But.... atleast something?!
Maybe they didn't need to make something for Cloud and Tifa. Is their relationship too obvious? Uh yes.
ACC spoiler -->
I wish they would have putted a scene with the 'family', instead of Cloud showing Denzel Zack's grave.
Anyway... They have other moments together, like:
1. Cloud carressing Tifa's cheek.
2. Tifa sleeps on Cloud's shoulder.
3. The Lifestream part.
4. Cloud blushing infront of her.
5. They are sleeping in the flowerbed. (Yes, I think that's cute.)
Well... there's more, but I could only think of these now.
“After this … I think I’ll be okay.” Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. “Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.” “What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.
"Because I have you." < You mean, as a friend you're totally not in love with, even if it has been stated? NO U. "I have you", that's something I would say to my boyfriend. Actually...
"What I mean is kind of different," < What does he mean then? That they are friends? No, that's what they were before. Now they are much closer. Maybe..... they realized their feelings for eachother?!?!?! DDD:
"Cloud answered with another smile." < Why did he smile? Maybe he was thinking of Aerith? Nuh, he just admitted that he wanted to start a new life with Tifa. A new life with Tifa made him smile. Oh..
"So Cloud's with Tifa?" < They are not talking about locations. See below.
"In the end, it's the women who wear the pants." < ....in a relationship. Yes. And Tifa wear the pants in her and Cloud's relationship.
"So how's Shera?" < Why did Barret ask that at the same time as they talked about Tifa(and Cloud)? Shera and Cid are together, and maybe even married. Does it ring any bell?
"So how's Shera?" < Why did Barret ask that at the same time as they talked about Tifa(and Cloud)? Shera and Cid are together, and maybe even married. Does it ring any bell?
With Cloud and Aerith, taking "undying feelings" as romantic ones comes out of nowhere. Cloud has never shown any indication of romantic love for Aerith.
I basically already said this. But you know, his mouth being dry, nothing mattering now that she is dead and so on all sounds rather poetic for the death of someone who he simply had the hots for.
but how does it make sense to deduce from that line that he has eternal love for her?
The line says "feelings", not love. Take from that what you will but "feelings" are usually romantic. And, you kind of skipped my reasoning for why it could be romantic feelings in this instance. They may not necessarily be the true Cloud's own romantic feelings, but the remaining imprint of his feelings for her as ZackCloud.
How do we get mutual feelings of friendship, or the other ones you mentioned, from the LS and HW events? How in the world? Getting intimate couldn't possibly confirm mutual feelings of the negative examples you gave, and cuddling, sleeping together to confirm mutual feelings of friendship is bizarre. In context, it doesn't make sense. And they've been friends the whole game.
I was giving examples of what "mutual feelings" by itself could possibly mean. I then followed on to say that it makes the most sense that it is indeed romantic feelings when used in reference to Cloud and Tifa because of everything else we know about them. You actually acknowledged that.
Show me where. "Undying feelings" is a description of lingering emotions that MUST be taken in context, so please, show me where it usually means love or romantic interest. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but considering I have a minor in Lit. I'd like to know where this logic stems from. I apparently missed that class.
From my personal experience, I suppose. Through reading books and watching movies etc. "undying feelings" is a phrase I have been conditioned to strongly associate with romantic feelings. My bad?
Ah, nevermind... It's not a general consensus, but how you chose to view the quote. Okay, then.
You mean eternal everlasting love kind of way? Good. I don't think that either. But simply a little romantic? I'm not going to completely chuck that possibility out of the window considering that there are Clerith hints here and there (though, albeit very far and few between compared to Cloti).
There you have it. Aerith loved Cloud (although I find the level and genuineness of that "love" highly debatable based on compilation and what we KNOW now.)
No one is saying he has no feelings for her. No one at all. In fact, everyone agrees that he's damn torn up over her death, and in fact, carries a major soft spot for her.
And I never said anyone was advocating that he didn't have any feelings for her. I'm just arguing that these "undying feelings" maybe partly romantic in nature, this has been challenged and now I'm arguing back.
The contention is whether or not he harbors romantic longing and the answer to that is no.
I never said anything about longing. I just don't think these "undying feelings" can't be at all romantic when there was indeed a love triangle back in FFVII and ZackCloud seemed to have a thing for her regardless of the player choice. Afterall, like I said in an earlier post, Zack loved Aerith and Cloud took on some of his character. The imprint of the feelings could still be there even if the true Cloud is not the one who originally had the feelings to begin with.
Chill. I wasn't being jippy, I was simply asking for the quote.
The SAME quote where Clerith's get Cloud's undying love.
Nomura:
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
"Also" implies a shared emotion. In no way are his emotions distinctly different than the other AVALANCHE members (except in guilt and responsibility as is shown in ACC). The ribbons on each party member should testify to their commitment to Aerith's memory. 2 years later and they are ALL wearing one.
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
"His own" implies Cloud carries feelings differing slightly from those of the comrades and viewers.
Also, what you're implying here is that Tifa and Cloud were already having a sexual relationship before he'd even returned to normal and they'd realised their feelings for each other. Now baring in mind that ZackCloud wasn't even aware of the feelings he had for Tifa and Cloud's been said to of been oblivious to both of the girls' feelings on the first disc, that doesn't make sense at all.
Even before the ridiculous debates about sleeping arrangements in ACC we have the option of openly admitting to sleeping with Tifa,
That's debatable. In fact, that very debate has already poped up in this thread and it resulted in an agreement that while they may of had sex, the whole point was that something intimate happened to help reinforce that Cloud and Tifa have feelings for each other.
Anyway, I don't know quite how we got onto this. We're meant to be discussing the "undying feelings" quote, not Cloud and Tifa's sex life.
I do wonder why they didn't put anything "romantic" in AC/ACC thought. I mean, if they had sex under the Highwind, why can't they even embrace eachother or something? I know Cloud was emo and all.. And they were fighting. But.... atleast something?!
But you know, his mouth being dry, nothing mattering now that she is dead and so on all sounds rather poetic for the death of someone who he simply had the hots for.
I don't think saying that your mouth is dry is poetic. And you're exaggerating with the other line. He didn't saying nothing matters, as in Aerith's is dead, I can't go on, just let me die because nothing can be done.
He told Sephiroth to shut up and stop his stupid, maniacal speech about becoming a god, that he'd just murdered Aerith. What was Cloud supposed to do, politely wait until Sephiroth was finished? Raise his hand?
Yeah, he was sad. Yeah, he felt that reacting to Aerith's death was more important than listening to Sephiroth drone on about his wacked out plans. But he wasn't wallowing in despair. He didn't refuse to fight, it strengthens his resolve.
The line says "feelings", not love. Take from that what you will but "feelings" are usually romantic.
They are? What about the rest of the party's "feelings"?
And, you kind of skipped my reasoning for why it could be romantic feelings in this instance. They may not necessarily be the true Cloud's own romantic feelings, but the remaining imprint of his feelings for her as ZackCloud.
Okay. Cloud on disc 1, if you choose to, can show some romantic interest in Aerith. He never shows any indication of being in love with her, and no matter what you respond with, when he regains himself he pursues Tifa.
So for us to take the "undying feelings" as romantic, then, what? Cloud has undying debateable slight romantic interest in Aerith? If the quote references romantic feelings, isn't that laying it on a little thick for what he felt?
About the Zack in Cloud thing, I dunno. I'm not trying to brush it off. I'll come back to it when I more awake. Though I don't think my reply will be that interesting.
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
Nope, look again. Each carry their own feelings and love for Aeris, as does Cloud.
And "undying feelings" are no more indicative of romance when divorced from context (on their own) than "mutual feelings".
They could mean a number of things depending on the situation.
So I don't see your point at all here.
Take from that what you will but "feelings" are usually romantic
No, they are not. You are making a truckload of assumptions and that usually means squat. The word itself does not inherently carry any romantic implications.
I assume that you are probably thinking of the tendency of English speakers to say "I have feelings for so and so" when refering to someone they have romantic feelings for, but that's like saying that because in English to "carry the torch" means that one has strong romantic feelings for one they can't be with, then the word torch must have romantic implications.
Nein. Can't do that. Especially with a foreign language, but hell, you can't even do that with English.
I basically already said this. But you know, his mouth being dry, nothing mattering now that she is dead and so on all sounds rather poetic for the death of someone who he simply had the hots for.
Except the dry mouth, burning eyes, etc has something to do with Sephiroth. Also, it's not "nothing matters" "It's your plan doesn't matter", he was, in essence, telling Sephiroth to shut up, as his grandiose speech was meaningless in the face of the death that just happened.
It's still no Galuf and Krile.
The line says "feelings", not love. Take from that what you will but "feelings" are usually romantic.
But IN CONTEXT, feelings are distinguished from love and also used to refer to the feelings of the fans.
And, you kind of skipped my reasoning for why it could be romantic feelings in this instance. They may not necessarily be the true Cloud's own romantic feelings, but the remaining imprint of his feelings for her as ZackCloud.
Possible, but you'd need to establish that anything from his time as ZaCloud 'imprinted' on him after his return to normal.
I was giving examples of what "mutual feelings" by itself could possibly mean. I then followed on to say that it makes the most sense that it is indeed romantic feelings when used in reference to Cloud and Tifa because of everything else we know about them. You actually acknowledged that.
As others have said, it's the context especially which makes this quote so effective. Especially the scene it's in and other things said about it.
From my personal experience, I suppose. Through reading books and watching movies etc. "undying feelings" is a phrase I have been conditioned to strongly associate with romantic feelings. My bad?
I'd say misguided. It can be used for any strong emotion in english, to say nothing of foreign languages.
You mean eternal everlasting love kind of way? Good. I don't think that either. But simply a little romantic? I'm not going to completely chuck that possibility out of the window considering that there are Clerith hints here and there (though, albeit very far and few between compared to Cloti).
Yeah, but it seems unlikely given he was oblivious to her intent, and immediately upon regaining his mind, chose the other girl. Liking her, sure, attracted to her, yeah, but romantic interest seems narratively unlikely.
And I never said anyone was advocating that he didn't have any feelings for her. I'm just arguing that these "undying feelings" maybe partly romantic in nature, this has been challenged and now I'm arguing back.
But generally, undying feelings are not small faint things, and you've said you're against the eternal everlasting kind of way.
I never said anything about longing. I just don't think these "undying feelings" can't be at all romantic when there was indeed a love triangle back in FFVII and ZackCloud seemed to have a thing for her regardless of the player choice. Afterall, like I said in an earlier post, Zack loved Aerith and Cloud took on some of his character. The imprint of the feelings could still be there even if the true Cloud is not the one who originally had the feelings to begin with.
There was a Love Triangle in FF4 as well and Rosa has no interest in Kain.
ALL a love triangle requires are three people, with a chain of attraction going in either direction. The bases can be interested in the point, the point can be interested in the bases, a base can be interested in the point can be interested in another base.
Interesting. But hang on,
"I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith..."
"His own" implies Cloud carries feelings differing slightly from those of the comrades and viewers.
But it's not being presented as non optional. The point is you have in the options of disc 1, the choice to be very overt with your affections toward Tifa, can be quite rude to Aerith at times, and are, at best, pussyfooting around the idea of romance with Aerith.
Hell, infamously, whatever you answer to the 'girlfriend' question, Aerith either takes you at your word for yes, or teases you for denying it overmuch if you say no.
Also, what you're implying here is that Tifa and Cloud were already having a sexual relationship before he'd even returned to normal and they'd realised their feelings for each other. Now baring in mind that ZackCloud wasn't even aware of the feelings he had for Tifa and Cloud's been said to of been oblivious to both of the girls' feelings on the first disc, that doesn't make sense at all.
Actually, she's saying the idea of physical intimacy is being planted into the player's head even from some of the earliest encounters, even if it's not actually there yet, methinks.
Correction, only possibly to sleeping in the same bed. See above for why it wouldn't make sense if they'd actually slept together there.
But the response is suggested of C/T whether it's Cloud's yes or Aerith's response to no.
That's debatable. In fact, that very debate has already poped up in this thread and it resulted in an agreement that while they may of had sex, the whole point was that something intimate happened to help reinforce that Cloud and Tifa have feelings for each other.
I assume that you are probably thinking of the tendency of English speakers to say "I have feelings for so and so" when refering to someone they have romantic feelings for, but that's like saying that because in English to "carry the torch" means that one has strong romantic feelings for one they can't be with, then the word torch must have romantic implications.
Nein. Can't do that. Especially with a foreign language, but hell, you can't even do that with English.
You can do it with certain words that actually mean specific romantic feelings, but they are only specifiers, they don't eliminate the possibility of the other word (though you can generally rule out the general one meaning love when the specific is also used), but they both translate into 'feelings' in english.
For the record, in the undying feelings quote, it is simple feelings referenced.
I don't think saying that your mouth is dry is poetic. And you're exaggerating with the other line. He didn't saying nothing matters, as in Aerith's is dead, I can't go on, just let me die because nothing can be done.
He told Sephiroth to shut up and stop his stupid, maniacal speech about becoming a god, that he'd just murdered Aerith. What was Cloud supposed to do, politely wait until Sephiroth was finished? Raise his hand?
Yeah, he was sad. Yeah, he felt that reacting to Aerith's death was more important than listening to Sephiroth drone on about his wacked out plans.
Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!
Cloud tells Sephiroth to shut up and then goes on to describe how he feels now Aerith is dead. Fingers tingling, dry mouth, burning eyes and so on. It's pretty OTT for the death of a dear friend. Compare it to how he reacts to Zack dying, he screams his face off right? Well here he ends up spewing all this dialogue which makes it sound like he's burning in hell or something.
All for dramatic effect of course but the dialogue is just stupidly powerful for a friend. It sounds more typical of the reaction you'd expect when the woman you have feelings for dies.
But he wasn't wallowing in despair. He didn't refuse to fight, it strengthens his resolve.
Context and the entire story indicates that their feelings are not romantic. But with Cloud on the other hand, there are actually hints here and that suggest there could be some romantic feelings involved, or at least when he was ZackCloud.
Okay. Cloud on disc 1, if you choose to, can show some romantic interest in Aerith. He never shows any indication of being in love with her,
There's the powerful speech over her death and his slip of "I" changed quickly to "we" at Cosmo Canyon. They aren't player choice. The dream could also be interpreted as romantic, although I personally didn't see much in it.
and no matter what you respond with, when he regains himself he pursues Tifa.
About the Zack in Cloud thing, I dunno. I'm not trying to brush it off. I'll come back to it when I more awake. Though I don't think my reply will be that interesting.
There's no comparison between the rest of AVALANCE's feelings for Aerith and Cloud's, because that bit is a mistake. But it's always good to know complaining won't change things. It means I get to complain some moar
エアリスは = we're talking about Aerith
かつてともに旅をした仲間 = a comrade (nakama ) who once travelled together [with the rest of them]
で = comes from the verb 'to be/is', and is conjunctive. It means '[Aerith] is [a comrade who [they] once travelled with], and...', but seems to have been taken as 'for those who travelled...'
受け手側の皆さんにも = [and...] for everyone in the audience too
それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います = he thinks they each have their own affection and feelings.
この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いはあると = there's not really anything there singling anything out like 'his own', like there was above (in bold). Just that he still has some 'undying feelings' as well.
I don't think I've ever seen 'undying feelings' (in Japanese) before. It gets few results on Google even if you change how it's written a little, so it doesn't appear to be very common. There was also another argument related to this, about how shite 'koi' is compared with 'ai', but that was completely missing the point because it was talking about the completely wrong word.
No, but I heard the orgasm of Aerith. You see, she and Tifa had smex before Cloud came. And well... he maybe said "NOOOOOOOOOO" just because he was jealous, or that he missed one of the most smexy hentai-yuri moments in the FF history?
Cloud tells Sephiroth to shut up and then goes on to describe how he feels now Aerith is dead. Fingers tingling, dry mouth, burning eyes and so on. It's pretty OTT for the death of a dear friend. Compare it to how he reacts to Zack dying, he screams his face off right? Well here he ends up spewing all this dialogue which makes it sound like he's burning in hell or something.
All for dramatic effect of course but the dialogue is just stupidly powerful for a friend. It sounds more typical of the reaction you'd expect when the woman you have feelings for dies.
Yeah, I agree. But don't you think a little of the Z!Cloud slipped through then? But I think Zack's death was more tragic, because Cloud nearly cries, and screams. So that would make Clack canon... Is that your conclusion?
u rapid unknown Clacker
Context and the entire story indicates that their feelings are not romantic. But with Cloud on the other hand, there are actually hints here and that suggest there could be some romantic feelings involved, or at least when he was ZackCloud.
I think Zack and Cloud were more romantic. I mean... "Do you wanna eat dinner with me?" < That's so romantic it hurts. But again, back to Clerith. That's a part of the plot twist. And well... I blame it on the Zack in Cloud.
The real Cloud have issues about "flirting". But he is trying it on Tifa. I think it holds more proof that the REAL Cloud flirts with Tifa, then that the Z!Cloud flirts with Aerith. (And at the same time, Aerith is very clingy)
There's the powerful speech over her death and his slip of "I" changed quickly to "we" at Cosmo Canyon. They aren't player choice. The dream could also be interpreted as romantic, although I personally didn't see much in it.
More like Cloud still has some romantic feelings for Aerith left over from ZackCloud.
Cloud tells Sephiroth to shut up and then goes on to describe how he feels now Aerith is dead. Fingers tingling, dry mouth, burning eyes and so on. It's pretty OTT for the death of a dear friend.
Really? I don't think so. Kinda reflects, though longer, the speech given on the death of the water Shrine Maiden in 3, and Galuf's death in 5 (Hell, there's an emotional response. Krile really loved her grampa.)
Compare it to how he reacts to Zack dying, he screams his face off right? Well here he ends up spewing all this dialogue which makes it sound like he's burning in hell or something.
That scream sounds more emotional to me than the speech does. As Sakurai said, he tried to put his entire soul into it.
All for dramatic effect of course but the dialogue is just stupidly powerful for a friend. It sounds more typical of the reaction you'd expect when the woman you have feelings for dies.
Idunno, it kinda reminds me of Inigo Montoya, or the bits in the cop movies when they get revenge on the guy who killed their partner.
Context and the entire story indicates that their feelings are not romantic. But with Cloud on the other hand, there are actually hints here and that suggest there could be some romantic feelings involved, or at least when he was ZackCloud.
'Could be' is all well and good, but those hints are just as optional and far less overt than anything to the otherwise.
There's the powerful speech over her death and his slip of "I" changed quickly to "we" at Cosmo Canyon. They aren't player choice. The dream could also be interpreted as romantic, although I personally didn't see much in it.
"I'm alone." "But I'm... no, WE'RE all here, how can you be alone?" Is the jist of that bit. It's Cloud not getting Aerith is alone because she's the last ancient.
There's no comparison between the rest of AVALANCE's feelings for Aerith and Cloud's, because that bit is a mistake. But it's always good to know complaining won't change things. It means I get to complain some moar
Lies. We're discussing Eris, Goddess of Discordia! Everyone loves Entropy.
この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いはあると = there's not really anything there singling anything out like 'his own', like there was above (in bold). Just that he still has some 'undying feelings' as well.
いまもなお死なぬ想いはあると for those playing at home, is the 'not dying feelings still exist' bit.
I don't think I've ever seen 'undying feelings' (in Japanese) before. It gets few results on Google even if you change how it's written a little, so it doesn't appear to be very common. There was also another argument related to this, about how shite 'koi' is compared with 'ai', but that was completely missing the point because it was talking about the completely wrong word.
It also missed the point by calling Ai a 'graduation' from Koi, which was really, REALLY squicky, since parental love for a child would be classed as Ai.
Yes, implying they are all different in nature. Otherwise you'd expect them to of included Cloud in the first sentence. For example "including Cloud".
And "undying feelings" are no more indicative of romance when divorced from context (on their own) than "mutual feelings".
They could mean a number of things depending on the situation.
So I don't see your point at all here.
Well unlike mutual feelings which are definitely easier to define with the context, having "undying feelings" for another person typically has romantic connotations and I hardly ever see it to refer to anything else. When it is it is made pretty clear e.g. "undying guilt".
No, they are not. You are making a truckload of assumptions and that usually means squat. The word itself does not inherently carry any romantic implications.
Maybe this is a cultural difference or something because whenever someone says "I have feelings for *whoever*" it's a given that these feelings are romantic. If the feelings someone is speaking of having for another person are not romantic then they tend to make this very clear to avoid misunderstanding. They do this through carefully choosing the wording and how they structure the sentence.
Now that hasn't happened here, it is not clear. So either this is the result of "undying feelings" being intened to mean romantic feelings, or the sentence is just badly worded.
I assume that you are probably thinking of the tendency of English speakers to say "I have feelings for so and so" when refering to someone they have romantic feelings for, but that's like saying that because in English to "carry the torch" means that one has strong romantic feelings for one they can't be with, then the word torch must have romantic implications.
I don't know about Japanese myself but I believe Hito already cleared up that the characters used for undying are also used in other situations where romance is involved.
Except the dry mouth, burning eyes, etc has something to do with Sephiroth. Also, it's not "nothing matters" "It's your plan doesn't matter", he was, in essence, telling Sephiroth to shut up, as his grandiose speech was meaningless in the face of the death that just happened.
It's still no Galuf and Krile.
"Undying feelings" is almost idiomatic in its connotations of love.
If you were to throw that quote at a load of randomers and unbiasedly explain the backstory then they'd most likely be agreeing that the quote is strongly indicating that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
If romantic feelings are not what the quote is meant to be indicating then it's just poorly worded.
Yeah, but it seems unlikely given he was oblivious to her intent, and immediately upon regaining his mind, chose the other girl. Liking her, sure, attracted to her, yeah, but romantic interest seems narratively unlikely.
Like I said in the reply to Rinali, his speech that came out at her death was pretty powerful for that of a girl he knew for 2 weeks and just thought was hot.
But generally, undying feelings are not small faint things, and you've said you're against the eternal everlasting kind of way.
"Eternal everlasting" sounds cheesy more than anything. It's basically saying he has romantic feelings that will never diminish. That doesn't mean he can't love Tifa though, especially now he's himself.
There was a Love Triangle in FF4 as well and Rosa has no interest in Kain.
ALL a love triangle requires are three people, with a chain of attraction going in either direction. The bases can be interested in the point, the point can be interested in the bases, a base can be interested in the point can be interested in another base.
Well I'd bet there's another FF in the series somewhere in which there's one character that's interested in both of the other characters in the love traingle. And even if not, hadn't we already cleared up a couple of pages back that comparing FFVII to other FF games is flawed because all FF games, characters and stroylines are meant to be different?
Who also have 'their own' for the players and comrades.
The point is that Cloud's own feelings are being separated from those of the viewers and comrades. Their feelings have been lumped together in the previous sentence indicating they're all similar.
But it's not being presented as non optional. The point is you have in the options of disc 1, the choice to be very overt with your affections toward Tifa, can be quite rude to Aerith at times, and are, at best, pussyfooting around the idea of romance with Aerith.
Hell, infamously, whatever you answer to the 'girlfriend' question, Aerith either takes you at your word for yes, or teases you for denying it overmuch if you say no.
Yes. But FHS said the dialogue she presented was "fact" when Cloud's reply was optional. I was correcting her over what the fact actually was.
Actually, she's saying the idea of physical intimacy is being planted into the player's head even from some of the earliest encounters, even if it's not actually there yet, methinks.
I don't know if that was what FHS was saying but I can definitely agree with what you've said here. It's part of helping us suspect something basically. He doesn't even know of his feelings for her until the lifestream scene and yet slowly his facade starts cracking in regards to it as the game leads us up to it.
But the response is suggested of C/T whether it's Cloud's yes or Aerith's response to no.
) anyway.
Why is want to kill with fire?
