But this translation isn't from a paid translator, it's from a fan on the C/A forum who translated a quote from an old pre-AC magazine.
Oh I see, that potentially changes things. How would you translate it then?
And I still am waiting for something truly indicative of love coming from Cloud, in regards to Aerith. Him crying that she died doesn't equal romantic feelings.
If it's been said he has feelings for her by a creator then you'd be as bad as these rabid delusional 'pinkers' that you keep going on about because apparently that's precisely what they do, ignore the words of the creators and prefer to shout about their own interpretations that indicate otherwise.
But yeah, I want to see how Hitoshura would translate that line before I start saying much more.
I don't think you should compare those two things together. But the smile for Tifa is in the script, atleast.
OK then. How about the risque scene and the risque dialogue. Since that isn't talked about in any ultimanias or guide books, any arguments you've put forward about the Highwind scene definitely being about sexual intercourse fall flat.
You just can't ignore the creator's words when you feel like it.
Maybe it's not mentioned that they dissapeard because he never had any romantical feelings for her?
Well I'm resting on this quote. If it turns out that it's just been badly translated and means something else then I will back down.
His feelings for Aerith would go away with the Zack in Cloud.
But then why didn't his feelings of camaraderie and frienship for Barrett dissapear if that's the case? They didn't, so evidently the various feelings and bounds he developed with people while ZackCloud were not erased when he became himself again.
But if you say that "undying" is something romantic, then maybe the real Cloud did love Aerith.
Maybe he did. The feelings would of carried forward from when he was ZackCloud however.
But his feelings for Tifa has been stated.
We're talking about feelings he may of had for Aerith. I'm not disputing his feelings for Tifa.
Yes, they're different, but these feelings are DISTINGUISHED from Love used in the previous sentence. If they were romantic in nature, it makes no sense to use the basic word for feelings to mean love when the word has already been used. It's like me saying "I love Pizza and I enjoy broccoli" and then assuming I love broccoli.
It's obvious from the way love is used in the previous sentence that it is not talking about romantic love. In the second sentence however (if this translation is even correct) it uses "undying feelings" which carries strong romantic connotations, they may of done this to further show that the love the viewers and comrades have for Aerith differ from the feelings Cloud has. If they repeated the use of love it'd be easier to see it as meaning the same thing, un-romantic love. If they are trying to suggest Cloud loves Aerith then they wouldn't of done that and they didn't.
Also, it's more like saying "Everyone loves and cares for Tifa in their own way but Ryu also has his own feelings for Tifa that will never die." You're being singled out here so it sounds like you're feelings for Tifa are more significant than everyone elses. You and Tifa have never met, interacted or even lived in the same world but it's still suggestive that maybe you have some kind of thing for her. In fact, now that I've reread that sentence it makes it sound like you hate her but you get my point.
The thing is, in typical Nomura speak, he also point out that WHAT those undying feelings are can be conveyed by the movie, so what those undying feelings are is deliberately stated as unspecified.
I don't know why but I just don't understand what you were saying here.
Feelings FOR are different from feelings about or regarding, and in the original quote, I'd argue the latter would be a more accurate rendition into english.
What would your argument be?
How do you read it?
It also has a strong link to rage, destruction, and Sephiroth.
Yes it does. It seems one thing can be linked to many other different things. The difference with the words "undying feelings" is how it has strong links to romance and only romance.
No, the characters used for Undying is the character for death negated.
So how would you translate that? Simply "feelings that do not die"? That's still undying feelings, it means the same thing and it carries the same connotations.
But 'his own' is not in the original.
Yeah, I retract that now.
There's a difference between remembering the acts of ZaCloud and aspects of the ZaCloud personality lingering beyond its existence. It's possible to remember a love you had while amnesiatic while not sharing that love once your memories return.
If you think that way then Cloud can only remember his feelings of friendship for Barrett and no longer has them himself, yet it's no question he and Barrett continue to be friends.
It can be, but it's not exclusive. And with a slight reword to the translation which is just as accurate 'feelings that do not die' it becomes much more open.
It means the same as undying feelings. It carries the same connotations too.
Yes, but it's been translated in a loaded manner.
It's not the quote's fault, but the translation's.
Can someone else offer their unbiased translation then?
So was Lead OK/Luneth's reaction to the Water Priestess's death.
What did they say?
I'm asking why must it be romantic feelings, essentially.
"Undying feelings" and "feelings that do not die" both carry the same romantic connotations. They are used most often to convey romantic feelings, but can also be used to convey hate (which obviously can't be what they mean here).
It is, that's not the point of my comparison. My point of bringing up this love triangle was an example of a love triangle in which two people are interested in a third, and the third is only interested in one of them. My point is that just because it's a love triangle it DOES NOT MEAN Cloud is interested in both by default.
True, but it leaves the possibility open regardless.
Yes, but the viewer's feelings including LOVE and feelings, but Cloud only has feelings, whether or not they are not dying.
The viewer's feelings of love aren't romantic though, and Cloud's feelings have been seperated from those of the viewer's due to being placed in another sentence. Now if they're "undying" or not, the way they've done that
could suggest something in itself.
Unless I misread, she said 'you can', not 'Cloud does.'
I guess I misread then. Sorry FHS.
But it still stands that because that dialogue is optional it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's just helping to lay down the foundation of the player's doubt over what Cloud's true character is.
Well, He is aware of his feelings for her, I think, hence his intererst in Tifa's words during the date, he's just not quite sure as to why, given his cocked up memories.
Sounds about right, his feelings are essentially locked in his subconcious.
That's kinda my point. It seems to be obvious to everyone save Cloud and Tifa that they mutually interested in each other.
Which is adorable but that doesn't automatically tear apart the possibility that ZackCloud developed feelings for Aerith.
I know it's the thigh (but it's high on that thigh, and that is a private touch spot, let me tell you), but butt touch is a catchier name.
Oh really.. yes actually I think it is. I remember seeing that in a psychology book (not that pop psychology rubbish either) where they demonstrated it with a diagram. It said something about how only lovers and parents are able to get away with touching fully grown males there.
Anyway, I digress.
Yeah, but the translator wasn't official, and IIRC, is one who's produced some major stinkers in their time.
I wasn't aware of this you see, I honestly didn't know.
Burning eyes tend to be dry, actually.
I realised that after I posted, but still, burning dry eyes is also an OTT physiological reaction over the death of a friend. Usually people tear up a bit. Having their eyes dry out is something way more dramatic if you ask me, it's probably partly to do with his anger and hatred for Sephiroth.
He actually doesn't act all that distant. As someone points out elsewhere, he's putting on a tough guy facade, even as ZaCloud, but he's still rather kind.
And the facade spectacularly breaks when Aerith dies. After that he's a bit of a wreck (a moving wreck but he's still a sprawling mess. Though, the only person who could fix him was Tifa of course.)
I'd rather have a Cloti kissing scene actually.. oh well.
Then he randomly force crushed Johnny's head. It's why he can't spell his name correctly any longer.
Now it all makes sense.
Whoa, totally missing the point- I'm saying the OPPOSITE. Krile's speech isn't romantic, and smacks of a different sort of bond, and is quite like- though far more emotional than- Cloud's short bit.
Oh okay but my point is that there wasn't a love triangle between Krile, her grandpa and another person. But there was one involving Cloud and Aerith and therefore it makes much more sense to perceive Cloud's powerful reaction to her death being due to him having a romantic attachment to her.
But it also wouldn't be unheard of to mourn the passing of a good comrade, dear friend, and as far as he knew innocent soul at the hands of the man he despised.
You have a point.
Dunno about 'raw', but he has just seen a woman murdered before his very eyes and the man who did it is standing around talking about how awesome he is. Come to think of it, that speech wouldn't be out of place at all if Aerith was just a man or woman on the street Seph has just brutally gutted.
More like extremely random. It'd make me think that Cloud had gone completely insane.
Don't use that word. FUCKING HATE that word.
..."emo"?
And actually, speeches and holding dead and dying partners in their arms ARE part and parcel of dead partners in cop movies- at least when it happens in a condition for the cop to be around for it.
But do they really go on about how their eyes are burning and their fingers are tingling? If they did I'd either assume that they were gay or the dead person was their brother. Nevermind what I'd think of them holding up both the persons back
and legs.
Yes, AND? Cloud is trying to make the point that she's not alone. So he points out that he, nay, they all are there, so she can't be alone. Does not automatic romance make.
The way he says it makes it sound like he was thinking solely about how he wants to be there for her but then changes his mind when he realises how personal it sounds. Since Cloud's a bit of an awkward and especially towards girls he likes, it is slightly suggestive of romantic feelings on his part.
No, I'd disregard promotional blurbs for promotional blurbs. Nomura has said blatantly misleading and untrue things about upcoming games before.
He said Kairi and Namine had no connection.
Point taken! But why would he be deliberately misleading about a character's feelings? It's not a plot twist anymore and it doesn't even matter to the viewer's enjoyment of the movie.
But she has a point- this seems like a strange thing to say in a single comment in a promo blurb for AC yet not follow up with ANYWHERE ELSE.
Disregarding words of the creators would still make you as bad as these "rabid pinker" people I keep hearing about. It's best not to go down that route or you just become a hypocrite.
I have undying feelings for my father. I have undying feelings for my kids. I have undying feelings about racism. I have undying feelings about my rapist.
You can use "undying feelings" like that but it still stands that is has strong romantic connotations. It's also a very interesting way of phrasing the sentence if they want to convey never dying feelings of friendship and guilt. Romantic love fits better.
Your friend is an idiot.
And she thinks your an idiot.
She also thinks you're all stupid for debating the meaning of "undying feelings". But yeah, let's leave it at that, she's too chicken to join in anyway.
Show me the interview where a creator said Cloud loved Aerith and I'll take it as fact.
So will I.
You'd be well advised to check your sources before spouting off like that... Just a recommendation.
I didn't spout off, I was just wondering why the hell Hito was inferring the translator was a biased Clerith.. until I found out that that was exactly what the translator is.
I've only been around for 4 weeks afterall. I'm doing my best to catch up.
Well, wouldn't that exclude Cloud and Tifa realizing their "feelings" for each other on your debate if the word feelings fails to mean love?
Well when you consider everything else we know about Cloud and Tifa and certainly how Tifa definitely loves Cloud romantically it just becomes a given that their "mutual feelings" can only be those of romantic love.
Does your friend realize that we're speaking about a japanese phrase in which these undying feelings are SET APART from love?
Yes, in fact she's studied both Japanese and English Literature to a much higher standard than me and she still thinks this debate over the meaning of "undying feelings" and "feelings that do not die" is stupid considering the context and how it's written.
But A: Was stated in an officially approved feature on the same DVD as the movie, and B: isn't a question about the motivations of the character, but rather on the meaning of a song by the person who wrote it. And C: We also have the script to back it up, come to think of it.
See my risque scene example above.
Yes, but we're not led to believe, especially in light of the plot twist, that those are love. We are led to think that they might be, only for all that to get dashed to the rocks later on.
We are just shown that the true Cloud has feelings for Tifa. If he had feelings for Aerith when he was ZackCloud they wouldn't automatically disappeared just because of the realisation of feelings for Tifa, even if they had been overruled, so to speak.
Deluded? No. Confused? In denial? Unsure of things? Sure. Especially since she too might be suffering from the eroding affect of the LS.
So you think Aerith is confused and in denial because she's being eroded by the lifestream even though she's a Cetra and it's only been two years? Slotting Zack in here makes more sense but by the time she is speaking in CoLW she is now aware that the Cloud she knew was not Cloud. Even then, that doesn't stop the possibility of them being koibitos while Cloud was still ZackCloud. Why else would she say it? She may be in denial over how she fell for the Zack in Cloud but that doesn't equate to her being confused about the relationship they had while she was still alive.
No, something said by the creators says he has feelings which do not die which are distinguished from love, which you take to challenge otherwise.
It's distinguished from the love comrades have for each other and the love viewers have for her character. Since neither of those loves are romantic and as you have said Cloud's feelings are distinguished from theirs, it looks like their inferring feelings of a romantic nature since the platonic use of love has already been used.
Yes, if he had any and it's suggestive in the ultimanias and game that a chemistry was there at the very least.
And in the relationship chart, they don't call Aerith a lover either.
What do they call Tifa out of curiosity?
So I fail to see your point. Undying feelings are just that. Undying feelings. The context of those feelings are not romantic, and just because you have feelings that don't die..it doesn't mean romance.
It carries strong connotations of romance. It's almost idiomatic. I've said this before.
Ryu has nicely pointed out that Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are distinguished from the feelings of love that the viewers and comrades have towards her. If Cloud's feelings are different from their's and he obviously doesn't hate her then the only other use of feelings here must be to convey romantic feelings. The "also" indicates they must be feelings of affection at any rate. See above for a clearer outline.
Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth is "undying." So stop trying to equate it to romance.
Mako, what is the exact quote?
I'm sure there was some big Clerith hullub about 'feelings' ('omoi') not being romantic, when looking at the various C/T quotes using it. Has this word pulled a koi-bito too?
Oh really? I'll just keep reading and hope I hear more of what that's all about.
That's the one. Reply with that one and curbstomp the fool
I gave that quote to someone on another video and they insisted it doesn't relate to AC so it didn't mean anything. He also said it was my interpretation that it meant anything significant.
@Aerith's death scene: I've seen this mentioned a couple of times. Replace her with say Marlene and it still works just fine. It's appropriate for anyone who's perceived as innocent and good like Aerith.
That's true but it still feels very personal to Aerith. We'd get a similar reaction but not necessarily the same one with Marlene.
Unlike for example the sexual innuendo of the Highwind scene that doesn't work as anything but really. And this has always been the difference in LTD.
I'm not disputing that anything else was implied there anyway.
@Undying feelings: 1) It does not make for such a loaded common expression in the original Japanese, like people have pointed out. 2) I don't see how it's necessary romantic anyway. Undying feelings of guilt work all the same, especially given the context.
"Feelings that never die" doesn't sound highly significant in Japanese?
Why the context? The first sentence is talking about various people's affections for Aerith and then it moves on to Cloud in the second sentence. It therefore makes sense that the "undying" or "feelings that do not die" are in regards to his own affections for Aerith.
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