Well I'm resting on this quote. If it turns out that it's just been badly translated and means something else then I will back down.
But then why didn't his feelings of camaraderie and frienship for Barrett dissapear if that's the case? They didn't, so evidently the various feelings and bounds he developed with people while ZackCloud were not erased when he became himself again.
Because Cloud still recalls the actions he has done as ZaCloud, and may or may not have the same mindset as he did when he was ZaCloud. He's not entirely not himself, but he's not entirely himself, either.
Maybe he did. The feelings would of carried forward from when he was ZackCloud however.
Would have, or rather, could have, since we're not sure.
We're talking about feelings he may of had for Aerith. I'm not disputing his feelings for Tifa.
May have had.
Yes, I will get on your case for this. Apologies. Feel I must.
It's obvious from the way love is used in the previous sentence that it is not talking about romantic love. In the second sentence however (if this translation is even correct) it uses "undying feelings" which carries strong romantic connotations, they may of done this to further show that the love the viewers and comrades have for Aerith differ from the feelings Cloud has. If they repeated the use of love it'd be easier to see it as meaning the same thing, un-romantic love. If they are trying to suggest Cloud loves Aerith then they wouldn't of done that and they didn't.
My point, though, is that In the first one, the Fans have Love and Feelings, and in the second, Cloud also has feelings, and it is most odd for these feelings to graduate to a much higher type of feeling even when compared when the last sentence. Let us use the word affection as a replacement here. In the first, we are told X has love and affection for Y, and Z also has a deep and abiding affection for Y. In this, we would assume that the affection Z feels is along the same lines as that felt by X. Same with Cloud and the fans sharing the same sort of feelings for Aerith, even though Z's affection is deep and abiding and Cloud's feeling does not die.
Also, it's more like saying "Everyone loves and cares for Tifa in their own way but Ryu also has his own feelings for Tifa that will never die." You're being singled out here so it sounds like you're feelings for Tifa are more significant than everyone elses. You and Tifa have never met, interacted or even lived in the same world but it's still suggestive that maybe you have some kind of thing for her. In fact, now that I've reread that sentence it makes it sound like you hate her but you get my point.
Which is kind of my point in the first place. It is singling Cloud out- mostly since he's the main character and his issues with Aerith are a part of the story- but what is being singled out is not immediately obvious outside the context.
I don't know why but I just don't understand what you were saying here.
I'm saying that Nomura likes to lead people on and play little games to make you think, like his 'Maybe she's from Hollow Bastion, maybe she's not' with Tifa in KH2, and he does so much more before a release, to drum up interest.
What would your argument be?
Technically, a literal translation is something along the lines that 'Also, in Cloud, about Aerith, not dying feelings currently exist.
I think there was an 'ima' in there. CBA to double check.
Well, I think lingering on, as in 'not dying' might be a better translation, since as you mention, there is an idiomatic understanding of 'intensity' in undying in english, when the JP literally just means 'not dying'.
Yes it does. It seems one thing can be linked to many other different things. The difference with the words "undying feelings" is how it has strong links to romance and only romance.
I repectfully disagree, but cba to look for examples for a counterargument at the moment.
So how would you translate that? Simply "feelings that do not die"? That's still undying feelings, it means the same thing and it carries the same connotations.
Zombie feelings
And this gets back into that whole literal vs meaning translation thing Hitobito got into earlier.
Yeah, I retract that now.
Thank you. You don't know how hard those can be to drag out of folks.
If you think that way then Cloud can only remember his feelings of friendship for Barrett and no longer has them himself, yet it's no question he and Barrett continue to be friends.
Actually, yes and no. Cloud has his recollections of Barret, and of ZaCloud's comradery, and can decide for himself whether CloudCloud still feels the same. Not consciously of course, but the point is, that with the difference of Cloud's personality and memories, his feelings could change entirely. And in several cases, they did. He became much more kind towards Yuffie, for example.
It means the same as undying feelings. It carries the same connotations too.
Not quite. For example, in G Gundam, Domon has feelings that do not die about his brother's betrayal, the death of his mother, etc. I should check the original of that, come to think of it, see if it's the same.
I have a feeling that will not die about the fekakte Twilight series.
Can someone else offer their unbiased translation then?
Babelfish? I'm sure the feelings for air squirrel are quite important.
I believe both game scripts are up on gamefaqs, and if not, both are on youtube. I'll find them later tonight if you haven't.
"Undying feelings" and "feelings that do not die" both carry the same romantic connotations. They are used most often to convey romantic feelings, but can also be used to convey hate (which obviously can't be what they mean here).
I don't think they have to be as diametric opposed to hate. Respect, envy, sincere gratitiude, are all feelings I think are appropriate emotions to fill in the feeling blank, if the context fits.
True, but it leaves the possibility open regardless.
Yes, but possibilities are open for a lot of things. I'm just saying that an LT doesn't automatically mean reciprocation, so it's a false premise here.
The viewer's feelings of love aren't romantic though, and Cloud's feelings have been seperated from those of the viewer's due to being placed in another sentence. Now if they're "undying" or not, the way they've done that could suggest something in itself.
Feelings AND Love, to be nit picky. Player's have both feelings and love. Also, a second clause, not a different sentence.
I guess I misread then. Sorry FHS.
But it still stands that because that dialogue is optional it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's just helping to lay down the foundation of the player's doubt over what Cloud's true character is.
And really, I think that's mostly entirely what it's there for. Giving us, the player, the illusion of Cloud being a player avatar to left hook us with the whammy of who he really is. Maybe give us some insight into who he really is, but insight we only understand upon reflection.
Sounds about right, his feelings are essentially locked in his subconcious.
Bobbing on the surface, like an Iceberg, but that's more splitting hairs.
Which is adorable but that doesn't automatically tear apart the possibility that ZackCloud developed feelings for Aerith.
No, but again, it doesn't validate the idea either, and I'm sitting on the negative case til sufficient evidence to move me can be found.
Oh really.. yes actually I think it is. I remember seeing that in a psychology book (not that pop psychology rubbish either) where they demonstrated it with a diagram. It said something about how only lovers and parents are able to get away with touching fully grown males there.
Yeah, someone touch me there and I don't want them to, and I will not be a happy adult male. Might even pop 'em one.
But digressing is the best part...
I wasn't aware of this you see, I honestly didn't know.
No prob.
I realised that after I posted, but still, burning dry eyes is also an OTT physiological reaction over the death of a friend. Usually people tear up a bit. Having their eyes dry out is something way more dramatic if you ask me, it's probably partly to do with his anger and hatred for Sephiroth.
I think a lot of that scene is tinged with his hate for Seph and the sadness of loss all mixed together and Seph egging him on as well.
And the facade spectacularly breaks when Aerith dies. After that he's a bit of a wreck (a moving wreck but he's still a sprawling mess. Though, the only person who could fix him was Tifa of course.)
No, he hadn't broken yet, and he might have lasted a bit longer because of it, since he has something to focus on other than his inconsistent memories, but it did deal a massive fracture to the already cracking ego.
I'd rather have a Cloti kissing scene actually.. oh well.
Not a sex one? I might have to revoke your Cloti License. I mean REALLY.
Now it all makes sense.
Everything makes more sense with force crush.
Oh okay but my point is that there wasn't a love triangle between Krile, her grandpa and another person. But there was one involving Cloud and Aerith and therefore it makes much more sense to perceive Cloud's powerful reaction to her death being due to him having a romantic attachment to her.
And in a way, I think the makers might actually be banking on that expectation, just to smash it too.
Thankee.
More like extremely random. It'd make me think that Cloud had gone completely insane.
If Sephy was just random, too, yeah, but if they had a history together, it seems no more out of line than a heroic speech in a samurai or cop movie.
HATE.
But do they really go on about how their eyes are burning and their fingers are tingling? If they did I'd either assume that they were gay or the dead person was their brother. Nevermind what I'd think of them holding up both the persons back and legs.
Eyes burning, no, but I do recall some of them talking about how their lips were numb, their hands were shaking, etc.
The way he says it makes it sound like he was thinking solely about how he wants to be there for her but then changes his mind when he realises how personal it sounds. Since Cloud's a bit of an awkward and especially towards girls he likes, it is slightly suggestive of romantic feelings on his part.
I never got that feeling from it. The 'I'm, wait, we're all here' vibe always came through loud and clear to me.
Point taken! But why would he be deliberately misleading about a character's feelings? It's not a plot twist anymore and it doesn't even matter to the viewer's enjoyment of the movie.
It's not being misleading so much as it is giving people just enough rope to hang themselves. He's not telling people anything more than that there are lingering feelings, and lets them go mad with speculation. He's good with that.
Disregarding words of the creators would still make you as bad as these "rabid pinker" people I keep hearing about. It's best not to go down that route or you just become a hypocrite.
I try not to disregard them, but I do find that I do have to at times. 'Kairi has no connection to Namine' and such. Anyways, it's not about disregarding the statements, but in this case, trying not to read too much into them.
You can use "undying feelings" like that but it still stands that is has strong romantic connotations. It's also a very interesting way of phrasing the sentence if they want to convey never dying feelings of friendship and guilt. Romantic love fits better.
And she thinks your an idiot.
She also thinks you're all stupid for debating the meaning of "undying feelings". But yeah, let's leave it at that, she's too chicken to join in anyway.
And I, as a graduated and accredited English Lit Graduate, will raise her one degree and bite my thumb at her.
Yes, in fact she's studied both Japanese and English Literature to a much higher standard than me and she still thinks this debate over the meaning of "undying feelings" and "feelings that do not die" is stupid considering the context and how it's written.
Well, I think it's stupid too, but for a different reason, especially since the context is so sparse.
Has she seen the original line? What's her thought on the matter?
See my risque scene example above.
Which is also technically invalid...
We are just shown that the true Cloud has feelings for Tifa. If he had feelings for Aerith when he was ZackCloud they wouldn't automatically disappeared just because of the realisation of feelings for Tifa, even if they had been overruled, so to speak.
No, but one might expect them to be referenced in the story at some future date.
So you think Aerith is confused and in denial because she's being eroded by the lifestream even though she's a Cetra and it's only been two years? Slotting Zack in here makes more sense but by the time she is speaking in CoLW she is now aware that the Cloud she knew was not Cloud. Even then, that doesn't stop the possibility of them being koibitos while Cloud was still ZackCloud. Why else would she say it? She may be in denial over how she fell for the Zack in Cloud but that doesn't equate to her being confused about the relationship they had while she was still alive.
I'm just stating possibilities. I don't know why she thinks that, honestly. I've not given it much thought. I'm just throwing out possibilities.
It's distinguished from the love comrades have for each other and the love viewers have for her character. Since neither of those loves are romantic and as you have said Cloud's feelings are distinguished from theirs, it looks like their inferring feelings of a romantic nature since the platonic use of love has already been used.
The players have both love and feelings. To say that Cloud's feelings are in excess of / greatly distinct from the player's feelings when the same word was used in both instances does not logically follow.
Yes, if he had any and it's suggestive in the ultimanias and game that a chemistry was there at the very least.
Where in the Ultimanias, exactly? And what are the examples in game suggesting this vague and undefinable chemistry?
It carries strong connotations of romance. It's almost idiomatic. I've said this before.
It's idiomatic for that, yes, but not exclusively.
Ryu has nicely pointed out that Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are distinguished from the feelings of love that the viewers and comrades have towards her. If Cloud's feelings are different from their's and he obviously doesn't hate her then the only other use of feelings here must be to convey romantic feelings. The "also" indicates they must be feelings of affection at any rate. See above for a clearer outline.
But the players ALSO have these feelings for Aerith, and it's these feelings that the players have that Cloud is said to have.
I gave that quote to someone on another video and they insisted it doesn't relate to AC so it didn't mean anything. He also said it was my interpretation that it meant anything significant.
...So, FF7 doesn't relate to FF7:AC, now?
Well, it IS all in the past, I suppose.
