Serious question: how important is Cloud's mother's recommendation of an older girlfriend to the LTD? I've seen this thrown out by Cleriths as really important... I didn't think it was much - particularly because I got the impression that he wasn't really going to be a nice boy and listen to his mommy. (In subsequent playthroughs, I figured he might've even been thinking about Tifa at that point in time - and she's definitely younger than he is.)
This actually kinda reminds me like some Jane Austen novel where everyone and their mother expects person A to get with person B but then there's a big shocking twist, and person A was actually interested in person C all along. gasp omg. Actually, this is sort of a cliche when it comes to romantic storylines.
Simply put, I think it's mainly a red herring, and if applying it to the romantic sub-plot, a pretty typical one.
Yes m'dear I think there are even quotes to prove it. But, then also we know that Aerith has said she knows they are different and wants to meet the real Cloud, like you said doesn't need to be romantic which is perfectly true, but now Aerith has said she loves Cloud, even if it is a sorta fake Cloud she does now. BUT, she could still love Zack for all we know and Cloud. O:
Are you talking about Maiden when she said she loved Cloud, or are you talking about COL? Maiden is really against Clerith when I read it. Though Aerith is seemingly cold to Zack, she also awakens Zack by thinking of all of the things that made Cloud unique, which weren't just his gestures and the way he carried himself. They were also his personality traits as well. COL has no time-line, so it's hard to say- but like Ali made a point of, if Aerith really has moved on (which I myself don't believe because let's face it- the quotes are everywhere) it's not her feelings that make it a romance. It's the returned feelings of the person she loves as well. Otherwise... it's called one-sided.
I'd say if there was another spin off it would help lean me a bit.
Well, I'm wondering how many different things it will take for Cloti to be proven canon, lol. Each new VII thing shows that Cloud and Tifa are together.
I agree with what looney said. And would someone who's a year older really be considered an ~older woman~ anyway? I would think there'd need to be a bigger age spread than that for age to be a factor.
Cloud's mindset at the time of that momma visit was definitely geared toward a girl who wasn't older. As he succinctly puts it: Not interested. We didn't know at the time why he wasn't interested (maybe he was just rebellious), but we certainly knew by the end of it.
Did you not read the next part of my post? /: I was saying how Aerith loves Cloud and maybe Zack too, and the part of Clerith being canon I was kidding about I even say so one line after it so I think you misunderstood me.
Celes Chere said:
Are you talking about Maiden when she said she loved Cloud, or are you talking about COL?
Oh fuck Maiden, i'm talking about COL. I've never counted Maiden canon, just crap. XD And since I wasn't talking about Maiden that's how i'm saying it is possibly that Aerith still loves Zack too, but from the information we were given she says she loves Cloud.
Celes Chere said:
but like Ali made a point of, if Aerith really has moved on (which I myself don't believe because let's face it- the quotes are everywhere) it's not her feelings that make it a romance.
That's what i'm saying above, she might still love Zack, but it has been said she loves Cloud now. And sure there isn't a direct timeline on when she loved Cloud, but she did after death and then why would she just stop?
Celes Chere said:
Well, I'm wondering how many different things it will take for Cloti to be proven canon, lol. Each new VII thing shows that Cloud and Tifa are together.
I've been out of the FF fan community for several years, but this crazy thread has pulled me back. Okay, that's an exaggeration. I was planning to come back soon anyway, but this just expedited the process.
I have a Final Fantasy VII FAQ online that I want to update because it's an embarassment to me now, and among the things I've decided to add, edit, or remove is the inclusion of a section about the Love Triangle Debate.
For those wondering who I am, you might remember me as Squall_of_SeeD -- a name I've not used in over three years.
Back in the day, I was in my fair share of LTDs until I realized that it really was pretty evenly balanced between the two women. Of course, that was before a lot of the Compilation stuff came out. But once upon a time, there really was no point in participating in an LTD.
Not just my experiences, but also a lot of the debates you guys have been in have influenced this article, actually. So, before I add it to the FAQ, I was hoping you guys might have a look at it for me and see what you think.
I think this addresses just about every point of significance to ever arise out of the LTD, so let me know if I miss any.
By the way, I do have to agree with Zee that some of you let this stuff get to you way too much. Not really lecturing you, as I used to be the same way. Worse maybe. Taking a break from the forums was damn near the best thing I ever did for myself.
I realize, by the way, that "essays" in the LTD tend to be the domain of Cleriths, but bear with me. I hope you guys enjoy it, and I appreciate you taking the time to look at it. It'll be below the spoiler break (a few Dissidia spoilers are in there, and obviously a lot of Compilation spoilers are as well):
Initially, I'd intended for this document to ignore the Love Triangle Debate like a plague. It succeeded in that for a good number of years, but updating it now, I feel a need to address this topic.
Why? You know, I'm really not sure. Probably because it's hard to call the FAQ's analysis complete when I don't even talk about what remains the most passionately and frequently debated aspect of the game more than 12 years after its release.
The Love Triangle Debate, of course, centers around whether Cloud had more romantic feelings toward Aerith or Tifa. Basically, who did *he* want to be with?
Those who prefer -- or "'ship" as the verb goes -- CloudxAerith are known in the fandom as Cleriths, while those who 'ship CloudxTifa are called Clotis. That being said, obviously a Clerith may still argue that Cloti is canon, and a Cloti might argue the opposite if it's what they believe. Generally speaking, though, those in both camps argue in favor of their preferred relationship as canon.
While I've had my preference since the beginning, it was initially based on my own preferences in women. More to the point, I couldn't stand Aerith and adored Tifa. That's still the case 12 years later.
Accomodating me and so many others, the game's developers designed it such that the player's own choices influence who Cloud's affection is greatest for in the original game. The way several scenes play out are influenced by this, and, consequently, it left Cloud's feelings ambiguous at the end of the game.
As an additional consequence, it meant players would debate, disagree with and flame one another for more than the next decade since there was no definitive answer.
There were no official declarations in interviews, no scenes in the newer FFVII titles featuring Cloud and one of the ladies in an overtly romantic context, and no apparent end in sight to the blood feud that lay between fans of the two pairings.
The only statement about Cloud's feelings that could be given with complete confidence is that he cared about both women very much. Now, more than that can be done.
There's now a definitive answer.
Around the time of Advent Children Complete's release, Kazushige Nojima -- scenario writer of FFVII, AC/ACC, the On the Way to a smile stories, and numerous other FF projects -- made the following comments about the Case of Tifa installment of On the Way to a Smile when asked, "How are Case of Tifa and Case of Barret? Would you say their meanings are that they're redemption stories?" (http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/gamebooks/ff/7novel/2p.html ):
(Translation by me) "Case of Tifa ... first, there's the premise that things aren't going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don't mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith's burden is big, I think."
Also, here's a translation of Nojima's comment by hitoshura of TheLifestream.net: "'Episode Tifa'... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith."
Here, we have Nojima discussing Cloud and Tifa's relationship, and he talks about it in terms of the two as a romantic couple. He speaks of them in the context of love, marriage and family. He suggests that the presence of the children of their family may be able to help them "work it out" -- the way one might discuss trying to make a problematic relationship successful.
Furthermore, Nojima identifies Aerith as a former potential romantic interest for Cloud ("Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith..."). Tifa, however, is identified as *a* current romantic interest for Cloud. While it can certainly be argued that Nojima's comments don't offer a promise that Cloud and Tifa will stay together, that's really not important. The Love Triangle Debate was never about who would Cloud be more likely to have a fairy tale romance with. It was about establishing who Cloud had an interest in *being* in a romance with.
These comments from Nojima make it clear that Cloud has such an interest in Tifa, and has acted upon that interest. Sure, it's not presented with the sweeping sense of captivation that some scenes in Final Fantasy VIII were with Squall and Rinoa, but there's more than one angle to present a romantic relationship from.
For that matter, romantic relationships tend to go through stages anyway. After two years, Tifa and Cloud can't really be expected to still be in that phase.
In any case, I think this comment from Nojima pretty effectively resolves the matter of who Cloud is interested in pursuing a romance with. That said, the debates continue even at the time of this writing. Usually with these comments from Nojima getting little attention from either side. In the past day, a thread on the topic at TheLifestream.net has actually gained about 15 pages.
That being the case, this article remains not yet complete. Despite Nojima finally offering an answer to this 12-year-old question, like so many others -- both Cleriths and other Clotis -- I believe sufficient evidence had been provided to resolve this debate prior to Nojima's interview. And, as you may have guessed, I believe this evidence to be in favor of Cloud pursuing a romantic relationship with Tifa.
I'm going to explain why I think this -- and since this discussion is about canon, I'll use the full range of official materials availalbe to do so -- but let's be clear from the outset: None of this is going to be about debating Aerith's feelings. So, you aren't going to see me arguing that she loved Zack more than Cloud, or that she only loved Cloud based on the similarities he had to Zack. That's neither here nor there.
We all know she had a romantic interest in Cloud. Same with Tifa. We don't have to -- and we won't -- debate this. It's obvious to anyone who played the original game.
This will be solely about examining and debating *Cloud's* feelings. For that matter, there won't be any analysis of any childhood feelings of romance he may have had. It's irrelevant to the present matter. I think most people agree that Cloud had an interest in Tifa as a teenager, but that doesn't have to remain the case in the game's present day simply because it was the case when he was 16. What Cloud does during and post-FFVII are what's important in this discussion.
We also *definitely* won't be using Kingdom Hearts or Itadaki Street Special of all things to try settling this. Even as a Cloti, it doesn't matter to me that Tifa was presented as Cloud's light in that series -- confirmed by Nomura in an interview in the Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania (http://www.kh2.co.uk/?page=NI/KH2U) -- or that it was Sephiroth who Cloud was searching for in the first game rather than Aerith. Neither have any bearing whatsoever on the continuity of the Cloud, Tifa and Aerith we're looking at here.
Kingdom Hearts is an alternate reality. Cloud may have had a dozen children with either or both women in an alternate reality, but that doesn't amount to a hill of dead Sephiroth copies as far as the reality we're concerned about goes.
Furthermore, the argument that Aerith is dead and Tifa wins by default will not be made here. Obviously, were Cloud in love with Aerith, he would have the option of pining for her until doomsday. He wouldn't have to move on with another woman, and if he did, it wouldn't have to be Tifa. I say all this in my opening statement because those issues are so often brought into the LTD arguments I've witnessed over the years. They're completely ancillary, but I've seen forum threads run dozens of pages splitting hairs over those matters. We won't be doing that here.
We'll get straight to the meat of the matter. Starting now.
The first point I'll bring up to support my position is one of the most hotly debated aspects of the LTD: Did Cloud and Tifa make some kind of physical connection under the Highwind the night before they went into the Northern Crater?
I'm going to go with yes on this one. While I'm aware that there's more than one version of this scene -- one where Cloud's affection for Tifa is high and he seems to reciprocate everything she says, and another where it's low and he says very little -- in either case, the scene ends with the two snuggled together as they sleep and reacting with embarassment the next morning when they discover that some of their teammates saw or overheard them.
Really, the only debatable aspect of this scene is how physical things got. In the high affection version, the scene features all the classic cinematic staples of an undepicted sex scene. Tifa's line, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking," followed by a pan to the stars and a fade-in to the two snuggled up is pretty straightforward. On the other hand, the low affection scene still presents the two sharing a tender moment and embarassment.
Certainly this scene alone isn't enough to tell us that Cloud wants a romantic relationship with Tifa, but looked at in the wider context of the newer Compilation of FFVII materials, I believe it's the first hint in that direction.
I would also argue that the canon version of that scene, as far as SE is concerned, is the high affection version. According to the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 33), on that night, Cloud and Tifa communicated their feelings to each other, and thereafter, live together in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
In the low affection version, Cloud communicates pretty much nothing to Tifa. Definitely not his feelings, and certainly none about her. He just listens to her talk and then says they should get some sleep. On the other hand, in the high affection version, he has quite a bit to say and is left trying to find the words to communicate "a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about" when Tifa suggests they employ a physical demonstration.
And if there's any remaining doubt that it was a physical demonstration Tifa was suggesting by saying "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking," I refer you to pg. 9 of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania. There, Kazushige Nojima, the game's scenario writer, refers to it as a risque line.
"Risque," of course, denotes something sexual. So I really don't see how that scene played out as being debatable.
Even with the two having sex, one could argue that -- this being the night before they journeyed to face Sephiroth -- it was just two people in the throes of passion before they died. Not a declaration that they wanted a life with one another, but -- on Cloud's part anyway -- a giving and taking of comfort offered before the end. Fair enough.
That's where the larger context of the newer Compilation materials comes into play. Speaking now to that wider context, the information in the CC Ultimania would seem to confirm that the affection Cloud and Tifa shared that night *was* an indication of wanting a life with one another rather than just a final moment of tenderness before death's icy hand reached out to claim them.
For further indication of this, look at the comments Cloud makes to Tifa in On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa. Just days after the night under the Highwind, Cloud tells Tifa that he thinks he'll be able to start a new life because "I have you." When she says that he's always had her, he says, "I mean from tomorrow on," while smiling -- the context clear that he means in a different way than before.
And what might be different now? What may have changed the dynamic of their relationship recently? They expressed romantic feelings for one another and were intimate.
Here in Case of Tifa, Cloud was expressing that he wanted her with him not just as an ally in battle, but as a companion.
Not long after that initial comment, Cloud tells Tifa that he'll be there to remind her how strong she is whenever she forgets, blushing as he says it. The blushing points to that kind of nervousness one might expect from an awkward, bashful guy saying something romantic to his love interest. At the very least, the accompanying line shows that he planned to be with her indefinitely.
Next, let's look at On the Way to a Smile: Case of Barret. Here, the very second line of the story says that Barret helped Cloud and Tifa build *their* home. One they would be sharing together.
Later, when Barret talks with Cid, the pilot asks "So Cloud's with Tifa?" -- and Barret's response is "yeah." While one could interpret this to mean Cloud's with Tifa in the sense that he's just occupying the same living space, the context established by the rest of the discussion would suggest otherwise.
Barret says Tifa is whipping Cloud into shape and Cid says, "In the end, it's the women wear the pants." I imagine most people reading this are familiar with the idiom of "wearing the pants in the family."
Cid -- who wasn't even around Cloud and Tifa for long after FFVII's events -- was speaking of them in the context of romantic partners. Why might he do that? And why might he have suspected they were now living together in the first place?
It's because he was one of the members of AVALANCHE who witnessed/overheard Cloud and Tifa sharing their moment under the Highwind, and then playfully teased them about it the next morning. Certainly something gave him an indication that they might have been moving toward a romantic relationship.
Speaking of Cloud and Tifa in the context of a family setting, various official materials refer to them as being in one. Whether it be On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa saying that Cloud looked like a young father with his children when hanging out with Denzel and Marlene, Tifa's profile -- written by Advent Children's creators -- in the April 2009 Dengeki PlayStation 3 (issue #445) that identified Tifa as serving the role of the children's mother, or Cloud's profile from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 38) that says he, Tifa and the children live together like a family.
That same profile for Cloud also identifies Tifa as an important woman to him and part of his family. Not really the kind of description you'd expect for a platonic friend who he happened to share quarters with. Speaking of sharing quarters, a late-night conversation between Cloud and Tifa in OtWtaS: CoT would suggest they were sleeping in the same room, if not the same bed. Tifa asks Cloud some questions after waiting for him to fall asleep, waking him up. He shows no surprise at her being near him while he sleeps and also closes his eyes and goes back to sleep a moment later without a suggestion that her presence is out of the ordinary.
The fact that she was waiting for him to fall asleep and knew when he had is also quite telling.
Though detractors of the couple's status as canon have suggested over the last few years that Cloud was unhappy with this arrangement and that it was why he left, all official comments on the matter have indicated that Cloud was happy with his family, and, indeed, that this happiness was why he left.
His 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile (pg. 38) says that the more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more anxious he becomes at the fear of losing them. Furthermore, his Dengeki PS3 profile says that he left initially because he wanted to find a cure for geostigma for Denzel, but later withdrew entirely because he believed he was useless to those he cared about.
His comments to Tifa and Marlene in AC/ACC corroborate this, and his profile in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania outright states that his guilt about not being able to protect people he cares about are what drove him to leave (pg. 38).
In any event, once Cloud began to believe in himself again and was freed from his guilt over the deaths of Aerith and Zack, he returned to his family.
The matter of Cloud's guilt also bears some analysis. In all cases where he speaks of Aerith post-FFVII, it's in the context of guilt, believing that he has sinned in failing to save her. Hardly romantic. Furthermore, whenever this feeling comes up about Aerith, it's always applicable to Zack as well. Whether it be the wolf symbol that represents his guilt appearing in places relevant to both of them, or his flashbacks to the moments before both their deaths when Denzel and Tifa are nearly killed in ACC, Zack and Aerith are almost always placed together in Cloud's thoughts.
Even in Dissidia: Final Fantasy when he mentions "something that happened before" while talking to Terra about his doubts over being able to save anyone, this applies to both of those he was unable to save in his past.
One of two exceptions to this parallel applicability in Dissidia is the field of flowers that appears in the game's ending. Cloud decides during Dissidia to share Firion's dream of a world filled with flowers, and when he returns to his world, it's in the flower field seen at the end of Advent Children. Certainly a reference to Aerith, as was an earlier comment following his final battle of the game with Sephiroth. There, Cloud said, "The one I really want to meet is ..." and trailed off.
Given Cloud's desire to see Aerith again and get her forgiveness, however, neither this line nor the field of flowers are necessarily romantic. If anything, Cloud's dream of a field of flowers is the symbol of his redemption for the sins he placed upon himself. It is ultimately in such a field that he meets Aerith in Advent Children, and while there, he seeks this absolution, saying only that he wants her forgiveness. There are no words of longing. Just a desire for her forgiveness.
Furthermore, the materia Cloud receives as his crystal in Dissidia is not tied to Aerith, as often perceived. This materia is not the White Materia. The size is completely wrong. Holy's materia was small enough to be kept in Aerith's hair, not the size of a softball.
The color is also wrong. Though the White Materia glows green when Holy has been cast, it also has a white spiral emanating from its center all the while. No such description can be applied to the materia Cloud receives in Dissidia.
Furthermore, the Dissidia: Final Fantasy Ultimania does not identify the materia as a reference to Aerith or to the White Materia in Final Fantasy VII's "Link to the Original" section of the guide (pg. 530) -- even while it identifies the feather Squall catches in the ending as a reference to Rinoa (pg. 580).
For that matter, it also goes so far as to point out many references that would be significantly less relevant than would be one to Aerith or the White Materia. For example, the guide draws attention to a reference for Final Fantasy II in which the Shiva AUTO summon uses lines similar to that game's Lamia Queen boss, making Firion -- who is shy and inexperienced with women -- feel nervous (pg. 196).
That's not nearly as relevant to Dissidia's story as Cloud's crystal, nor is it as relevant to FFII as Aerith and the White Materia are to FFVII. What Cloud receives in Dissidia is just a solid green materia, a generic crystal from and representative of his world. All his companions in Dissidia likewise receive a crystal that does more to represent the game they're from than to represent the character theirself or a connection they may have to another character from their game.
Thus, there's a sphere for Tidus, a magicite for Terra, one of the eight crystals from FFIV for Cecil, the crystal of creation for Zidane, etc. Perhaps the biggest indication for many fans that Cloud harbored feelings of romantic love for Aerith come from On the Way to a Smile: Case of the Lifestream White's reference to him as Aerith's "koibito" -- a Japanese word usually meaning "lover." There are a couple of matters overlooked in this, however.
First, while the narration that says, "Cloud was her friend, her koibito," is made by the third-person narrative voice, it's done as a reflection of Aerith's point of view. It's not a third-person objective voice making an irrefutable statement no more than Case of the Lifestream Black was when it made the following comment about Sephiroth's defiance of dissolving into the Lifestream:
(Translated by Xcomp) "The planet was to be his to rule, and to become a part of that system would be nothing short of defeat."
Rather than making an objective declaration that Sephiroth was going to win and take over Gaia, it was simply using a third-person subjective voice that reflected what Sephiroth was feeling. That sort of writing makes for variety in sentence structure and more pleasurable reading. Constantly seeing "... he thought ..." or "... she felt that..." would quickly get tiresome.
What's also overlooked in this matter is that even if this was an objective third-person voice, it would be unreliable on the basis that there is no demonstration that Cloud and Aerith ever got together in the original game.
Up to the point in time where Aerith is thinking about Cloud while in the Lifestream -- immediately after the end of the original game and already well after Aerith had died -- there had been no significant scene of romance portrayed between Cloud and Aerith. Certainly even a date at the Gold Saucer wouldn't be enough to make a word like "lovers" apply to them, especially given SE's position in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 37) that Cloud was "none the wiser" to Aerith and Tifa's feelings for him early in the game.
There was no time for Cloud and Aerith to become lovers or express such feelings to one another before her death. He's simply her koibito to *her* -- and in this context, the word is probably better translated as "sweetheart" or "beloved."
While on the subject of the word "koibito," it's been used in reference to Tifa before as well, in the Advent Children Reunion Files book (pg. 19). Nomura said, "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart [koibito], and a close ally in battle."
Though there's been some debate about whether these adjectives were used to refer to Tifa's traits or to her roles, I really don't see why it matters. I agree that the "like a ..." wording is indicative of traits, but she still has to actualize those traits somehow for them to apply.
We know she's like a mother to Marlene and Denzel, and like a close ally in battle to the rest of AVALANCHE. That leaves her to be like a koibito to someone. Who else could it be but Cloud?
For that matter, the notion that he didn't reciprocate runs counter to all available evidence on the matter.
There's also a comment from Kazushige Nojima on pg. 70 of the Reunion Files where he says this about conceptualizing the story of Advent Children:
"Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged."
Now, I suppose one can argue -- as with Cid's comment from OtWtaS: Case of Barret -- that this is just another way of saying that they're living in the same house. Given the wider context of the Compilation that we've been examining, though, does it even make sense to conclude he meant that? I don't believe it does.
I'll grant, Nomura has also made the following comments in an interview with Famitsu PS2, published in their October 24, 2003, issue (http://ff7ac.hotcafe.to/magazine/magazine03.html, http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/product/magazine/fami_psp+ps3/03003520.html): "I believe for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even to this very day.... It's relation with the church scene is.... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (laughs)"
I would like to point out, however, that this interview took place well before even the original Advent Children came out. Nomura was teasing the eager fans. He didn't identify exactly what Cloud's unique undying feeling for Aerith was, but he hinted that it would be related to the church and revealed in the film.
What is this feeling that's ultimately given so much attention in the film? Guilt, as we've discussed before. The wolf that symbolizes Cloud's guilt even appears in the church, and the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania refers to Aerith as a symbol of his failures to protect those he cares about (pg. 50).
For the record, the word used in Japanese and translated as "love" was "aijou." Rather than sticking with that when talking about Cloud's additional undying feeling, the word "omoi" -- which can mean either "thoughts" or "feelings" -- was used.
Of course, Nomura also said that Cloud has love for Aerith, as "those who formerly traveled with her as comrades" would include Cloud. But, then, he said that everyone on the team had love for her. Cloud just has additional "undying thoughts" unique to him -- and that was guilt. The same thing he's got going on with Zack.
There's also a line from the Dirge of Cerberus instruction manual describing Aerith that is frequently referenced for LTD arguments in favor of CloudxAerith. In the official English version, it was translated as, "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who Cloud would never forget."
Alternate translations have been offered by fans to the effect, "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is forever engraved in Cloud's heart." This is certainly a more accurate translation, taken word for word, than the official one.
That said, I really don't feel that it offers Aerith a completely exclusive position. She holds a unique spot in Cloud's heart forever, no doubt, and not just one of guilt, sure. Yet, that said, another official source -- the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania guide -- says Cloud's promise to Tifa about protecting her is also engraved within his memory (pg. 40). For that matter, does anyone think that if Tifa had been the one to die, Cloud wouldn't carry her around in his heart forever as well? Especially if she died right in front of him and he wasn't able to do anything about it? Would she not be described in much the same way?
Obviously, he would, and she would. Cloud carries both women around with him, but inevitably in different ways.
So, in this zero-sum game, that leaves the two ladies balanced as far as the use of that particular idea goes.
An often debated area where Tifa pulls ahead, though, is in terms of who knows Cloud better. While Aerith's Cetra abilities allowed her to see Cloud for who he really was according to the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 223) and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 48), Tifa's Dengeki PlayStation 3 profile for ACC describes her as the only person who knows Cloud's past and the one person who understands him.
That same profile credits her not only for mentally supporting Cloud in the original game, but also for inciting Cloud to regain his will to fight during Advent Children.
And speaking of balance, one really has to ask, if there were no Tifa, would there still be enough evidence post-FFVII to suggest that Cloud is in love with Aerith? He loves her, sure, but would he otherwise seem romantically interested?
The strongest and most consistent emotion he expresses where she's concerned is guilt. Even when he thinks that Aerith sent Denzel to him in OtWtaS: CoT, the context is hardly romantic. He believes it's part of his redemption, the same as Tifa, who feels that Aerith sent Denzel to her as well.
On the other hand, were there no Aerith, I don't think anyone would question what's established by the Highwind scene, the CoT and CoB dialogue, and the family structure with Tifa.
The only points left that might be seen as favorable to CloudxAerith are Cait Sith's fortunetelling prediction in the original game about Cloud and Aerith having a "great future" and marriage, and Cloud's line from the ending of the original game, "The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... there."
With regard to the first matter, Caith Sith's prediction was way off. It was very soon after that when Aerith died on Sephiroth's sword. Have fun playing with that line metaphorically, by the way.
Anyway, Caith Sith's predictions are unreliable to begin with. The FFVII Ultimania Omega describes them as such, and says they're usually wrong (pg. 81). And, again, we see Aerith get impaled only shortly after Cait Sith makes a prediction for her to have a happy future with Cloud. That really says it all right there.
On the second matter, until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line from the game's ending was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.
While this, no doubt, expressed a sentiment on Cloud's part to see Aerith again -- a desire that continued through Dissidia: Final Fantasy and On the Way to a Smile into Advent Children -- he was already feeling guilt over her death and wanted absolution from it. In Case of Tifa, even as he stood on the Highwind watching the Lifestream and Holy defeat Meteor, he was already speaking of a need to be forgiven:
"I'm going to live. I'll never be forgiven unless I do."
Also, if you happen to count Maiden Who Travels the Planet as in-continuity, then the meeting Cloud referred to in the ending was resolved by he and the rest of the team seeing Aerith's image in the Lifestream as Meteor was overcome. Even if you don't count Maiden, though, the original game did show an apparition of her there.
In any case, Cloud hardly seemed to have been left emotionally crippled by Aerith's loss given how quickly he would be moving on with Tifa otherwise.
My final point to make on this subject is this: Cloud comes off as quite the ZackxAerith (Zerith) fan in Advent Children Complete, putting her flowers at his grave, and his sword in her church. So, even Cloud thinks she shouldn't be with him.
Yes, that last part is tongue-in-cheek. But seriously, Cloud's not pining away for Aerith, living out a self-imposed single life. He's with Tifa.
[/end section]
I also have some things to say in my forthcoming update comments for the FAQ related to the discussion about canon, authorial mandate and the like (standard Compilation spoilers apply; the ending of "The Sixth Sense" gets spoiled as well, so look away if you've somehow avoided that for the past 10 years):
I'm going to update this FAQ today for various reasons. Stuff that's been established as incorrect in the last three years will be noted as such and fixed. Stuff that's been confirmed by Square Enix as correct will also be marked accordingly. And then the stuff that was my own wild speculation, if not removed, will be clearly marked as such.
Perhaps most importantly of all, though, I'm going to get rid of almost all references to the following Compilation of Final Fantasy VII titles as being part of continuity: Last Order, Before Crisis, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. Also, I will be excluding some of the new On the Way to a Smile stories released when Advent Children Complete came out. That means Case of Yuffie and Case of Nanaki are not included here either.
One thing I've come to understand is that a work of fiction like any of the Final Fantasy titles is a team effort. It's a collaboration between a great many people, not just who make the game, but who experience it and interpret it, then go on to share those interpetations with others.
There's no hypodermic needle or Matrix-upload for a story. It's not just injected directly into your brain. A great deal of effort is expended and a variety of storytelling techniques are used to create something that nonetheless still requires viewers to bring something to the table in order to make sense of it.
When we see through a character's own eyes in a movie, do we know that's their point of view because the director runs down to the front of the theatre and informs us that we're now looking through the character's eyes rather than the magical, omnipresent window through which we see most details? Nope, we just recognize that to be what's going on.
When a flashback begins, do we know that it's a flashback because someone tells us, or can we figure it out because we've brought the ability to recognize what sepia-toned cinematography could mean? It's our own ability to comprehend that and our own work that allows us to make that interpretation.
It's the same with figuring out something like the ending to "The Sixth Sense." I'm about to spoil the ending, by the way, if you're one of the twelve people who don't already know it.
Does the film ever actually tell us that Bruce Willis' character was a ghost the whole time rather than that he was just experiencing an acid trip in the final scene, or are we able to piece together what's there and arrive at that conclusion?
I grant you, it's not particularly hard to figure out come the end of the film, but no one within the movie ever makes a statement to the effect that he's a ghost.
Again, there is no hypodermic needle in communication. Even speaking with someone in the same language there is miscommunication everyday. You always must interpret what has been said.
So what's going to happen when you're playing a game that uses "cinematic language," was designed by many people who speak a different spoken and written language, and was then localized into your language by several more people with their own thought processes and various ways of understanding the world around them?
The original message may have ran into countless points of interference before you received it, and then it still has to get through your own internal noise.
This understanding of fiction's collaborative nature is especially important when doing something like plot analysis. I was hopelessly unqualified to be attempting this FAQ at the time I made it. I didn't even understand this most fundamental aspect of storytelling.
The author is important, God bless them, but without a receiver to communicate with, a story is not going to come to life. Stories are not just reflections of a single author, but also of all its listeners -- themselves authors who worked with the original teller to make meaning of disparate elements strung together in a way that often has little inherent meaning.
Why is that leading me to remove LO, BC, CC and DC from this FAQ, you may be wondering. It's because all four have numerous inconsistencies with the original Final Fantasy VII, and even with each other. If an FAQ like this is going to treat a fictional world with the same scrutinizing eye that it treats the real world, then the fictional world needs to be able to stand as stable as the real one.
Keep in mind that I'm not disputing any of those titles' place in canon. Canon is the official continuity, and Square Enix can have it. So also can those who are more concerned with what the official word is than they are with what makes for a consistent, internally cohesive narrative.
I'm not saying that such a preference is inherently bad, but just that it's not for geeks like me who look for a fictional reality to be able to make as much sense as our own.
Every time you watch your home movies of your 13th birthday party, or your wedding, or that Christmas where you got the puppy, you expect it to be the same, right?
I'm merely saying that a history in which Sephiroth jumped into the mako beneath Mt. Nibel's reactor can't exist in the same continuity as one in which he was thrown in by Cloud. Conflicts such as that are incompatible.
I must apologize to everyone who has ever read this FAQ for suggesting that an author's own word on something should be the final one -- or worse, that simply having legal ownership to an intellectual property is as good. Again, Square Enix can have their official continuity in which there are many gaping holes in history, or where any attempt to make a cohesive summary of what reality is requires overlooking the many conflicting elements in what should be easily summarized events.
Honestly, how hard is it to retell something the same way after you've told it once before and have the original telling at hand anytime you need it for reference?
Again, I'm not saying that the official continuity isn't up to SE. It's theirs. It belongs to them. Irrefutably. However, the worlds each player or viewer has experienced belongs to them just as irrefutably.
No one -- not SE nor any fan, no matter how many translations of Japanese-only guides they've read -- can say that it's the player or viewer's fault if they failed to perceive something as SE or its developers supposedly intended it. If they didn't put it or evidence of it there, no one can claim with any actual basis that it *is* there in the product the player received. It might be there in the official reality, but it's not been represented to anyone in this one.
No matter how many times you play Final Fantasy VII, you're never going to find evidence that Zack broke the glass of his containment tube under the Shinra Mansion instead of knocking out the resident scientist at feeding time.
It wasn't presented to the viewer for being interpreted into continuity, and, thus, while it's part of the official reality, it's not necessarily going to be part of the reality viewers have already experienced. Nor should it be expected to.
Evidence for it not only isn't there in the original game, but it directly contradicts what *is* there -- and that extends beyond simply relying on Cloud's potentially faulty memories. In the game's present day, the two containment tubes stand intact with scratches inside revealing Cloud and Zack passed messages to one another in which they planned their escape at feeding time.
Cloud's flashback to their escape in the original game is in line with that. Crisis Core's presentation, however, is not.
Yeah, Crisis Core is the most recent production, and is, therefore, the official word on canon -- but the original game was there first, and neither it nor those who have experienced it should be expected to accomodate the new at the expense of established history. If the new is inconsistent, that means someone either made a mistake or deliberately chose to make it inconsistent.
We expect 2009 to have a certain number of days because 2008 had a certain number of days. If two or three new days sneak in somewhere, that doesn't mean 2008 did anything wrong. It means someone printed a bad calendar. We're not going to try to recalculate a solar cycle that somehow fits with 368 days, though.
Every time we see or hear Dr. Martin Luther King Junior's "I Have A Dream" speech, we expect him to finish it with the phrase, "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!". If it were to suddenly end any other way, we'd be wondering what the hell happened to our cohesive reality, and why it was no longer holding up.
I can't help but imagine it must be much the same way for the unfortunate denizens of Square Enix's official Final Fantasy VII continuity.
[/end section]
I'm also going to have a section that looks at all the contradictions in the entire Compilation of FFVII. At least I hope it will be all of them. God knows I'll probably miss some. There's a lot.
This will be the introduction to that section:
Just to warn you in advance, dear readers, this is not the fun part of this section. That's down below, entitled "The lists." Its ctrl+f navigation code is [7.2Co]. This part is where I get on my soapbox, rant, preach and wag my finger.
All, might I add, with very little consideration given to editorial concerns like length, redundancy and beating a dead horse. This is the Internet, after all. Space is pretty much unlimited.
So, if that sounds painful to you, I advise moving on down to the fun part of this section. If you're the masochistic type, however, and eye bleeds are your cup of tea, keep reading
I have little doubt that this section -- the only completely new addition to this document -- will easily be the most controversial. More so than the article about FFVII being connected to FFX/X-2 ever was.
The irony of that is it will likely incur the disfavor of those arguing the very points I once did. Heck, many who I've seen reference canon as the final word in debates since I stopped participating have done so while referring to arguments I made.
That kind of sucks.
Seriously, I didn't know what I was doing back when I was such a huge part of the Final Fantasy fan community. I was terribly unqualified to argue any of this stuff. Today, I'm ashamed of many of the arguments I put forth.
A significant number of fans were influenced by me to some degree, and to those who I've encouraged to believe the buck stops at the author, I'm sorry. Canon *is* the official word, but so what? That's all that it is: the official continuity.
Yet "official" doesn't ensure "quality. Doesn't denote "coherent." Doesn't even necessarily connote "good" these days.
Don't make excuses for sloppy work and laziness. If a sequel, prequel, midquel, interquel, etc. is full of plotholes and contradictions, you don't have to sit there and try to explain them away in some attempt at arguing that it's still good, that it all makes sense somehow, and that we should all look for a way to include it in the overall narrative because it's got the official stamp on it.
Really, that sort of thing is the author's job.
Yes, as I argued in my update comments, a work like Final Fantasy VII is a collaborative effort. One between writers, artists, programmers, etc. and the players as well.
But that doesn't mean it's supposed to be the audience's job to ensure that events that happened in a previous title are still part of the fictional reality in the newest title.
An author choosing to neglect that sort of thing is neither making a creative statement nor casting away restrictive boundaries that are only the domain of geeks living in their mom's basements.
It's just bad writing.
I've seen a few individuals who are currently heavily involved in the FFVII fan community make the argument that a lot of people want to cherry pick what they count as canon rather than accepting the Compilation as a whole. This is true, but, really, if they want a coherent narrative, what choice do they have?
Even Square Enix does it. Heck, they cherry pick more than anybody.
As an example, the original Final Fantasy VII shows irrefutably that Red XIII believed himself to be the last of his race. Before Crisis, however, features a female of his kind named Dinne -- whom he knew prior to his capture by Shin-Ra, and whose whereabouts he knew. When he gets to Cosmo Canyon during the original game, however, he doesn't ask about her -- even though that's where she is!
Toward the game's end, he and Bugenhagen speak of Red XIII finding a mate as though it's a hypothetical situation in which there may be a female of his kind out there somewhere in the world for him to find. Yet both knew of Dinne. Who's right there. In Cosmo Canyon. Where they are. Double-you tee eff much?
Was there any kind of failure on players' parts for speculating for years where Red XIII might have found the mate that fathered his children from the post-ending epilogue? Obviously we knew he found her somewhere since we saw that he'd reproduced, but can SE come along years later with Dinne and expect us to contrive excuses for them that allow absuridities like Red agonizing over being the last of his kind?
His once understandable and sympathetic anguish from the original becomes absurdly pathetic whining.
How about Last Order? It was the first of three retcons to the massacre in Nibelheim, and the beginning of the massacre in the village of Continuity. Shin-Ra did a real bad job of covering that one up.
Anyway, I made excuses for it at first, as did many other fans. Most said the original game's presentation of that incident was unreliable due to Cloud's fragmented memories.
At least they used their imaginations to explain it away. I just accepted -- and encouraged others to do the same -- that FFVII was SE's baby and they could do whatever the hell they wanted to with it. I was an idiot.
Before Crisis comes along not long after that and further retcons the scene, though not by much. It's still pretty much the same. There's just a Turk there now. And the appearance of JENOVA's room, retconned by LO, is now retconned back to its original appearance.
Then Crisis Core, of course, comes along a couple of years later and retcons both LO and BC. No Turk now, plus a lot of other changes.
It was that third retcon which finally made me throw up my hands and stop making excuses for SE's lack of concern for quality in their products. Imaginative and still loyal fans apparently then began a practice that continues to this day: explaining away BC and LO as simply having occurred from Tseng and the Turks' perspective.
After all, they say, Tseng was reading a report on the Nibelheim massacre and reflecting on it during LO. Well, the problem with this is that the text from the report is legible to the viewer and clearly states what SE had intended to be the case at one point in time: that the Turks believed Cloud killed Sephiroth before passing out from his own wounds.
Right there on Cloud's profile in the Nibelheim report are these words: "By the report ... it is considered that Cloud killed Sephiroth even though he suffered ... ."
This being their conclusion is consistent with what is shown in BC, where the player's Turk calls Tseng to inform him that Sephiroth has *fallen* into the mako and is dead. As Sephiroth deliberately jumped into the mako in both BC and LO, the Turk on the scene obviously didn't witness the full incident.
They merely heard Sephiroth and Cloud talking/fighting, then saw that Sephiroth was nowhere in sight, saw Cloud looking over the edge, and then drew the conclusion -- which Tseng accepted -- that Cloud knocked him down there and killed him. Even in what may be considered Tseng's memory in LO, where he remembers Hojo having Cloud and Zack taken to the Shinra Mansion to be used as experiments, we find Hojo commenting that Cloud is the one who killed Sephiroth.
As if the various pieces of dialogue Tseng couldn't possibly have been aware of in LO weren't enough to indicate that the flashbacks weren't simply his own understanding of what went down, the information in Cloud's profile clenched it. Hojo's comment further solidifies it. But that didn't stop SE from trying to use it as an out years later.
The 10th Anniversary Ultimania came along at the time of Crisis Core's release and SE themselves resorted to using this blatantly fallacious excuse for LO's events (pg. 80). The book even acknowledged the discrepancies in Sephiroth being thrown into the Lifestream or jumping, yet made no attempt to explain them away. It merely said that the same results followed either way, suggesting it wasn't important how it actually happened.
Well, if you want a cohesive universe where A is A, it is kind of important, SE. It's actually really important.
For the record, I recognize that some may be confused for my inclusion of Advent Children Complete into my continuity while I exclude Crisis Core.
Despite ACC featuring a couple of FMVs from Crisis Core, I really see no reason why the scenes in question can’t mesh with the way things went down in the original game. Someone familiar with the original game but unfamiliar with Crisis Core could watch ACC without any confusion or continuity errors arising in their mind.
Yes, Cloud and Zack weren’t shown having a conversation before Zack died, but it’s easy enough to swallow that it could have happened. What was shown in the original game could easily be an abridged version of his death, especially given that it was Cloud experiencing a memory.
In his earlier memory to how things actually happened in Nibelheim, I doubt anyone thought that Zack ran into JENOVA’s room and was knocked straight out of there without saying anything to Sephiroth first. That was simply a case of time being condensed so that the player wouldn't have to sit there for possibly a minute before something else happened.
Certainly every new title in the Compilation that has gone back to that showdown has done so with the assumption that there was some exchange between the two, so it's not an unprecedented notion by anyone's reckoning.
I realize this is cherry picking, but, again, I don't see the problem with that. If it's problematic, I expect SE to stop doing it first.
In the event that anyone is also confused about my inclusion of On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa, I can explain that as well. The only concern I can see being raised is that this story features Cloud telling Elmyra of Aerith’s death following Sephiroth’s defeat at the end of the original game, even though she’d already been told about it well before that point.
That’s a case of a mistake in translation in the official English version of CoT included with North America's Limited Edition release of Advent Children. The word translated as "told" here was "hanashimatta" in Japanese. It simply means "talked." So what was actually said here is that Cloud talked to Elmyra about Aerith’s death, not that he informed her of it.
And that actually makes the most sense given that, otherwise, Elmyra seemed pretty quick to accept the whole thing and wouldn’t have been portrayed as having a particularly sorrowful reaction.
I can also see someone being confused as to why I would accept Maiden Who Travels the Planet since it mentions Sephiroth laughing as his spirit dissolves when Cloud defeats him in their final battle from the original game -- something not shown in the game's ending.
I'm willing to overlook that detail for the simple fact that there was no voice acting in the original game. While Sephiroth's expression didn't lend itself to laughter, we're also talking about a spiritual construct here, and someone capable of communicating with Cloud telepathically.
Despite the expression on his face, he could have been saying anything to Cloud while his spirit dissipated. And given that Cloud heard him laughing just a few minutes earlier after he'd lost his body -- effectively robbing him of his chance to attain godhood with Meteor -- I don't find it out of character for Sephiroth in the slightest.
In the event that there's any suspicions to the contrary, I want to dispel them now: while I'm cherry picking based on what works as a single, consistent narrative, I'm not cherry picking based on what titles I like or would prefer to see as the official continuity.
As far as it goes, I *like* Dirge of Cerberus. I enjoyed it a whole hell of a lot. I think parts of it are terribly written and more than a few are nonsensical, but I like that game. I liked the new characters, adored the characterization of old ones, and appreciated the overall story as well.
I also loved the levels, the voice acting, the music, and pretty much the whole of the presentation.
That cutscene of the battle between Deepground and the WRO outside Midgar is one of the coolest battle sequences in any Final Fantasy, and the game's ending is beautifully executed on every level. Vincent seemingly sacrificing himself followed by that amazing credits sequence was fantastic.
I'll also admit upfront that Shelke's among my top favorite Final Fantasy characters. She is simply made of win.
Even the gameplay was pretty awesome, with the exception of the right button on the d-pad activating items instead of scrolling right. Bad, SE! Counterintuitive controls are no beuno!
Heck, I actually finished all of the game's extra missions. Yes, all of them. Even "Cait Versus the World" and "Missilebreaker Deathmatch."
So you know there had to be some measure of passion there.
Actually, I enjoyed most of the extra missions. "Rains of Gehenna," "Stygian Sewers," "Vincent the Beast," "Gatling Shower," "One-Handed," "Unlimited DG," "Two-Handed," "Deepground" and "Stronghold Impervious" are all great stuff. I even played around with the missions enough that I discovered you can actually kill enemies with magic in the "Messenger from Hell" mission if you blast them enough.
"Deep Labyrinth," by the way, is *so much easier* with the Manasoul.
For that matter, I honestly like several elements of Crisis Core. Genesis is an awesome character, and CC has what I consider the best final battle and ending sequence of any of the new games in the Compilation.
Again, establishing a personal canon isn't at all about picking what I like or what I think should be in the official continuity. Were I cherry picking in that way, I'd be finding some way for Dirge of Cerberus to fit.
As I said in my update comments, SE can have their official continuity. I want one that doesn't contradict its own existence at every turn.
If anyone feels I'm looking at this thing the wrong way and can set me straight on the matter, I'm more than open to hearing you out.
Also, yeah, I realize that the important thing to ask at the end of playing one of these games is whether I enjoyed it. Haven't lost sight of that. What I also realize, though, is that it's difficult *to* enjoy them at times when I have so many continuity voids trying to suck me in.
I also feel conscientiously opposed to excusing lapses in artistic integrity, which -- let's face it -- much of the Compilation has been.
With that, I turn things over to the fun part of this article.
[/end section]
By the way, if anyone's curious, the new update is 99.9% complete and will come once we have a translation of On the Way to a Smile: Case of Shin-Ra. If I find that it fits coherently with the original game, Advent Children Complete, Case of Barret, Case of Tifa, Case of Denzel, Reminiscence of FFVII, and Maiden who Travels the Planet, I'll include whatever continuity-relevant details it offers.
If it doesn't, that will make my final job on this thing a lot easier.
Good to see you again.
Of course, a few things can be solved through simple assumptions. Like Red thinking the female had passed on/ been killed by ShinRa, or simple things like that.
But yes, glad to have you, can't wait to see the FAQ.
Completely, I do not, never have and never will ship that. It's just a typical get Tifa outta the way couple I was poking fun at. Sorry, I forgot to use an smiley to lighten the mood.
@TresDias. Wow, just wow that's the longest post i've ever fucking seen. I had to thank you for just the time you put into that. O: And I do think you had a pretty unbiased view of the LTD even if some points in it I didn't exactly agree with, but you simply stated just about every point of it with a little more Cloti, but I don't blame you how you stated it made good sense. (:
TresDias said:
Back in the day, I was in my fair share of LTDs until I realized that it really was pretty evenly balanced between the two women.
Completely, I do not, never have and never will ship that. It's just a typical get Tifa outta the way couple I was poking fun at. Sorry, I forgot to use an smiley to lighten the mood.
@TresDias. Wow, just wow that's the longest post i've ever fucking seen. I had to thank you for just the time you put into that. O: And I do think you had a pretty unbiased view of the LTD even if some points in it I didn't exactly agree with, but you simply stated just about every point of it with a little more Cloti, but I don't blame you how you stated it made good sense. (:
Good to see you again.
Of course, a few things can be solved through simple assumptions. Like Red thinking the female had passed on/ been killed by ShinRa, or simple things like that.
But yes, glad to have you, can't wait to see the FAQ.
Thank you, Ryu. Nice to speak with you again as well. You've kept up the good fight longer than anyone.
I remember threads from like five years ago where we tag-teamed opponents in the LTD, and I've seen posts from you on random message boards I'd never even heard of that Google searches lead me to.
Glad to hear you still have an interest in the FAQ. It's actually going to be pretty damn nice.
@TresDias. Wow, just wow that's the longest post i've ever fucking seen. I had to thank you for just the time you put into that. O: And I do think you had a pretty unbiased view of the LTD even if some points in it I didn't exactly agree with, but you simply stated just about every point of it with a little more Cloti, but I don't blame you how you stated it made good sense. (:
Thanks. Distancing myself from the forums for a long time made it easier to form an objective analysis.
I actually tried really hard to find some kind of ground for CloudxAerith as I wrote this article, if only because it was such a landslide victory for Cloti.
As you can see, I didn't come up with much ... well, anything ... in Clerith's favor.
Speaking of which, this is a good forum. Infinitely superior to AdventChildren.net. You guys really took all the best elements from it and none of the bad. You made something respectable.
Though there are times TLS Greeting Baskets for Clerith refugees seem to have grenades rather than pineapples. And some of you forget that not everyone is as geeky as us, so they may not have even read the On the Way to a Smile stuff.
Granted, when someone comes in dismissing data from titles they freely admit they've not even looked at, that is frustrating.
Ha, thanks, but no rabidness here. I got all of that out of my system a long time ago.
I return to you today as more of a scholar analyzing the war than a soldier fighting it. Though, like Laguna, I'm a journalist who -- while recognizing that the pen is mightier than the sword -- still appreciates what swords, machine guns, and grenades can do.
Thank you, Ryu. Nice to speak with you again as well. You've kept up the good fight longer than anyone.
I remember threads from like five years ago where we tag-teamed opponents in the LTD, and I've seen posts from you on random message boards I'd never even heard of that Google searches lead me to.
I wander here and there across the internet. Like a wandering Samurai of rational empiricism and narrative and thematic consistency.
Which forums, BTW?
Glad to hear you still have an interest in the FAQ. It's actually going to be pretty damn nice.
Speaking of which, this is a good forum. Infinitely superior to AdventChildren.net. You guys really took all the best elements from it and none of the bad. You made something respectable.
Though there are times TLS Greeting Baskets for Clerith refugees seem to have grenades rather than pineapples. And some of you forget that not everyone is as geeky as us, so they may not have even read the On the Way to a Smile stuff.
Granted, when someone comes in dismissing data from titles they freely admit they've not even looked at, that is frustrating.
While we've certainly jumped on some newbies before, it's nothing we won't do to long term members as well, on several subjects. So it's not really bias, it's... eagerness, I should say.
Yep, pretty much. Surprised no one had done that before.
Largely because no one cared to do it, though several short summations had been made before.
Ha, thanks, but no rabidness here. I got all of that out of my system a long time ago.
I return to you today as more of a scholar analyzing the war than a soldier fighting it. Though, like Laguna, I'm a journalist who -- while recognizing that the pen is mightier than the sword -- still appreciates what swords, machine guns, and grenades can do.
Nice rundown on the entire "who does Cloud love" question.
Although I found the rant about continuity, canon and contradictions a bit amusing. If they ever did remake FFVII all that stuff you are leaving out would be included. Then you go on to say that Maiden would be included.
One note. Isn't it basically the same people in charge of the entire compilation from the beginning? I mean it's not like a comic book with many different writers over the years,
I agree with what looney said. And would someone who's a year older really be considered an ~older woman~ anyway? I would think there'd need to be a bigger age spread than that for age to be a factor.
Welcome, TresDias, and awesome job. I think you did what some of us have occasionally thought about doing, but were just too lazy.
A couple of minor points that jumped out at me.
For further indication of this, look at the comments Cloud makes to Tifa in On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa. Just days after the night under the Highwind, Cloud tells Tifa that he thinks he'll be able to start a new life because "I have you." When she says that he's always had her, he says, "I mean from tomorrow on," while smiling -- the context clear that he means in a different way than before.
It's not just the context anymore that indicates this. In the revised CoT, he literally says, "in a way that's different from before." And to be nitpicky, I believe it's the very next day.
Though there's been some debate about whether these adjectives were used to refer to Tifa's traits or to her roles, I really don't see why it matters. I agree that the "like a ..." wording is indicative of traits, but she still has to actualize those traits somehow for them to apply.
Did I understand correctly that you read Japanese? Isn't it the case that a) "like a" only applies to the mother part, and b) that the word "role" is actually in the sentence? I see your point on why it probably doesn't matter, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.
Okay maybe not god but... wow you summed it up so nicely. Good job. BUT.. you do realize that Cleriths have a rebuttal and response to every single thing you posted right? I'd be happy to share those with you if you're curious,but I'm just letting you know in case you think your essay will change any minds.
Even with the two having sex, one could argue that -- this being the night before they journeyed to face Sephiroth -- it was just two people in the throes of passion before they died. Not a declaration that they wanted a life with one another, but -- on Cloud's part anyway -- a giving and taking of comfort offered before the end.
Thanks for this BTW. This is another reason I don't like the they had sex and "What would you do if it was your last day on earth etc etc..." that almost makes it seem like Cloud doesn't love Tifa and just was overcome with passion and emotions
But everything you said was good... I uh didn't read the contradictions part but maybe I'll get to that later. Good on you for the "It's not who Cloud will have a fairy tale romance with, it's who he's with." thing too. I get so sick of Cleriths throwing that one quote around like it completely damns Cloti.
I like you, hope you stick around
Did I understand correctly that you read Japanese? Isn't it the case that a) "like a" only applies to the mother part, and b) that the word "role" is actually in the sentence? I see your point on why it probably doesn't matter, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.
I can answer this. Every person who I know that spoke Japanese that I showed that page to mentioned the word roles. So yes it's in there. There's not a doubt in my mind.
Okay maybe not god but... wow you summed it up so nicely. Good job. BUT.. you do realize that Cleriths have a rebuttal and response to every single thing you posted right?
Yes they have rebuttals for every point. But they tend to ignore the narrative as a whole. And worse yet they contradict established facts that can't simply brushed aside.
Sure as has been said. Talking about Cloud and Tifa being together could be talking about location. But when combined with the larger context of wearing of pants and such. It begins to stretch the bounds of logic (or breaks them unceremoniously).
Sure as has been said. Talking about Cloud and Tifa being together could be talking about location. But when combined with the larger context of wearing of pants and such. It begins to stretch the bounds of logic (or breaks them unceremoniously).
I just wanted to make sure she (he?) knew and would be ready for them.
Also I'm not sure what they say about the wearing the pants quote... and please don't tell me there's an interview somewhere of a Japanese person saying wearing the pants means their relationship is platonic or that they meant literal pants.
Also I'm not sure what they say about the wearing the pants quote... and please don't tell me there's an interview somewhere of a Japanese person saying wearing the pants means their relationship is platonic or that they meant literal pants.
