So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Vendel]

I admit Cloti is canon

*faints*

 

[DrakeClawfang]

*faints*

Hardy-har-har.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm all for creative development of different character in fandom in any which direction a fan my want. I mean, regarding any form of story telling, you're always going to project some of your own thoughts/feelings/beliefs/whatever to whatever you're seeing. That's cool, it happens, and it's the reason that makes a fandom interesting in the first place. I'm sure for the most part they would probably encourage fans to have fun their work. That said, the creators should be given proper respect for theiroriginal ideas when a fan re-imagines their world. Fervent insistance of your own interpretation in favour of the creator's intent is kind of insensitive, considering what they put into making the story in the first place.

The Clearith fandom is guilty of this in that they're pretty much trying to WARP entire sections of the story to fit with their projection. Now, if the finished product in unsatisfactory, that's cool, fans so have a right to dislike it. It's fine and dandy to try and take X character or X concept or X pairing and take them beyond what they were in canon through hypothetical or AU situations, so long as there is some sort of acknoledgement for the creator's original work.

Sometimes writers do jump the shark or make a questionable choice in the story's development, but in the end it is their choice to do that no matter how much the fans disagree with it. I don't particularly like how Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended, but that doesn't make me run around trying to convince everyone that Spike and Buffy run away to LA to have a sexy threesome with Angel and Joss just kept it uber hidden and secretive for us SPESHUL fans who see the TROOTH of the series

and yeah, that went longer than expected but I just wanted to chime in cuz this sort of behaviour really really bothers me.

edit: dear god you guys post fast o_O

 

[Vendel]

Hardy-har-har.

It had to be done.

Welcome to the dark side Drake. We got booze here.

 

[I Am Not Me]

But I still staunchly support CloudxAerith! :p. Just because I admit Cloti is canon doesn't mean I don't still love Clerith. I wrote a revival fanfic, I ain't coming back from that...seriously, that's my stance now. "Yes, Cloti is canon, but I prefer Clerith". And if I were asked which I'd prefer canon I'd answer that too, but sadly I can't control what's canon and what isn't (yet).

You're a hero, Drake.

And don't worry about it, you're not alone there. I've seen a lot of Clerith fans that do admit Cloti is canon, but still prefer Clerith (as canon and/or fanon). It's all cool. 8DDDDD

Welcome to the dark side, by the way.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

It's great seeing canon but still preferring another couple. See my earlier post about me supporting Harry and Luna or Conrad and Yuuri if you disbelieve that's never happened to me.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Also I kinda see the point he was trying to make now... like if after the story happened if Nojima were to say "Oh yeah we were gonna have a scene where THIS happened but we didn't have time." that scene wouldn't be canon. Kinda like the chocobo stable thing isn't canon. It didn't happen. I think he's referring to things like that. That I can understand but... blah to the rest of it.

I dunno, I think you're trying to excuse them. All you really need to say is that the school of thought they are basing these ideas and concepts on has nothing to do with the canon of a fandom.

That school of thought is all fine and dandy is terrible and I hate it, but all it says is that whatever you perceive, regardless of what the creators says, is valid in a debate on the piece of literature itself, as long of course the debate itself is based on that school of thought.

The canon of a fandom is the truth of the fandom set by the creators. The word canon comes from the 'canon books of the bible'. As most people know, there are a lot more 'books'/dead sea scrolls that were found than are put into the bible. The leaders of the religion chose which books were canon, ie. the truth, and formed the bible.

Now the word is used for fandoms to diferientiate personal interpretation to the truth that was intended.

As Ryu pointed out about SW, which is one of the biggest fandoms for canon debates, what the creator says makes certain things canon and not canon, it's as simple as that.

@Drake:

And of course you still like Clerith more. It's teh smex.

 

[Kikyou]

Well, I meant to post this big ass thing yesterday morning, but then I realized I only had ten minutes to run from my house to the bus. Saved my response on this laptop. And then I not only missed the bus but I missed my math class. So all I've been doing yesterday was post meaningless one-liners in this thread in between hw and class. If it was offensive to anyone, that was just me sucking at being funny. ANYWAY I'M BACK HOME NOW.

Oh yeah, I prolly should clarify now, since people have assumed (not that I blame them), that I was posting my views to debate or convert someone to my pairing. Someone asked me why I think something different. So I answered. The only thing I really wanted to debate against was generalization of Clerith views vs. oscillating between arguments.

No really they say that Cloud was visiting the church and closing himself off because of his guilt:

So that's it, guilt. NO WHERE does it state ANYWHERE that Cloud is visiting the church out of love for Aerith.

Mmm... but you can feel guilty letting down someone you care about, no?

Yeah, I really hate while during the middle of a debate the person says, "Well I haven't played the game".

Looks like you're very accepting of everything, lol. But since you are a Clerith can I ask the golden question? Which is most definitely, why do you think Cloud loves Aerith?

How about me?

At least it gave you a lulzy experience to remember.

I try to understand where people come from in their views (sometimes I try and it still doesn't make sense to me), not just people's views on fandoms, but religions, politics, and such. I read somewhere that these different views on humanities can influence how people can be so varied on the LTD, since love is an aspect of human life. I agree with them. As for why I think Cloud loves Aerith, well...

I don't really think Cloud was Zack in the entire first part of the game. His memories are muddled for sure, but I'd like to think the human psyche is much more complicated than that. Are memories (and I think only a specific portion of them were confused) what forms the person, or does a person and their personality control how the memories peddle out? I think it's a mixture of both. Differences in persona are seen as early as childhood and our experiences do change us. And how we act and view things alters the situation. So I think that this Cloud, who has been influenced by Zack and still retains some of his original "self", is capable of loving Aerith and did so while she was alive. He wasn't a completely different person during the moments when he cared and showed attraction towards her. (I won't list specific moments in the game where there is romance, since I'm no analyst. But let's just leave it on the broad range of, "Any time they share the same screen time." Works for shounen-ai and shoujo-ai too. )

And hrm... I really can't think of a better example to illustrate what I'm trying to say. It's like watching a movie or tv show flashbacks. You're watching someone else's past, and in a way, it becomes your memories too. You don't directly experience them, but you're still experiencing them in a way... but without the smell, touch, or taste part. They may or may not change you. In a way, it's "your" memories too but not your history, not your world and not your character. So while Zack's experiences are Zack's, they are also the current Cloud's. Even after the lifestream event, when his identify has been clarified, it wasn't like he "forgot" those false memories. So even though we have a "real Cloud" now, we also have the Cloud from the beginning. I happen to like both.

Done. 'Cause you asked nicely. 8D

What I mean by "dated" is...gone steady and go through a prolonged, meaningful relationship. Like she did with Zack. Zack and Aerith dated for a good year. Cloud and Aerith knew each other for at most, 2 weeks. And they were more fighting to save the world than anything else. Their date at the Gold Saucer wasn't exactly romantic.

And no one's trying to say Aerith wasn't special or important to Cloud. Not at all. But we're talking about romance here, and I'd like to know where exactly Cloud and Aerith ever truly shared a romantic moment.

And well, we don't need years to contest it. The creator's state clearly it was a product of guilt right here, here, and then in the subsequent Reunion Files of the movie. He went to the Church because he felt guilty and depressed over Aerith's death.

So how can you say it had anything to do with romantic love, when the creator's have stated the opposite? Especially when Cloud also said he wanted to move on and start a new life with Tifa in the Case of Tifa novella?

True, you have a point about the length of the game. But I saw romantic potential for that couple in that short time and I'd like to think their interactions were, while not prolonged, at least meaningful. And sadly, I agree about the dates. The date scenes were a huge disappointment. Except for Barret's. <3

Well, yeah, you can feel guilty and depressed if someone you cared for died. I believe it was a combination of both love and guilt. I said in a post a few pages back that I believe that the bonds in FF7 were strong and persisting. I don't really believe in a ONE TRUE LOVE, so I when I was reading CoT, I saw it as moving on to Tifa while retaining fondness and affection for someone who has passed on. Same with CxA when I learned of the nature of ZxA's relationship. Which to me, both are romantic loves. And sometimes saying you want to move on, isn't the same as doing it. So I don't think he truly moved on from his past and his guilt until the ending of AC, where he takes initiation, where he smiles that adorable awkward smile, where he says, "I'm not alone", taking place post-CoT.

[FONT=&quot]

Nothing I stated is 'my views'. It's what the creators have said themselves. Most of us are just curious as to why people believe Cloud was or is still in love with Aerith when there's nothing to really indicate it in the original game or in AC and the creators statements contradict the idea.

Thanks for posting it though, I see now what you mean. It's the same for me with Tserith stuff, I see more of it in the compilation than one is suppose to get from it, but it's just so awesome. <33

Which is fine and wonderful and I LOVE a good discussion on personal feelings and interpretations of works of fiction like FFVII. HOWEVER, this is a CANON debate. There is an established canon, that Cloud loves Tifa, and that Aerith loves Zack. If you hate these couples and want to see things differently, that's fine, but when you go around the internet trying to prove your interpretation means anything when compared to the established canon, that's the problem.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] If you're curious as to why some people feel that way about Clerith, there's always a site out there that expresses their views. But I wouldn't read them unless you know you won't get high blood pressure reading the opposing views. As for the creators' statements about the compilation beyond AC or CoT, I've never read them or sought them out. LOL GOES TO SHOW WHAT KIND OF FAN I AM. But if that's what they say, then I have no qualms about it. And I don't think we need to argue over words or how they pronounced them or if they used punctuation. Anyway, words haven't hurt me yet and they won't diminish my love of this pairing.<3
[/FONT]
Tseriiiiith... and AerTi. <333

[FONT=&quot] And sorry, as I said earlier, I wasn't here to prove my views are canon, just share them. I'm not an analyst and it isn't fun. And I played this game to have fun. ... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Soooo, I'm going to go back to ALL CAPS one-liners after this post. Have fun guys.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

For example, we don't misinterpret Cloud as a woman. Why is that? Because it's OBVIOUS.

PS: Long, aggravated post is long and aggravated.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think Cloud would make an incredibly sexy woman, tho. [/FONT]
Tea, music, and a game where you can kill lots of shit helps on an aggravated day.

[FONT=&quot]

Well, that does it. There's no beating this 2 second blip in the credits. Time to turn Clerith now. =0 After all, this is the scene that shows Aerith is Cloud's love and light!1!

Size... of scene. is. too... small. D:
And I like that game, and the gameplay, and Sora, and Disney. stfu. >(
... but if you want KH2 Atlantica, or the FFX-2 faeries, TAKE THEM.
[/FONT]

A fact is a mammal, yes, yes, yes, and $50.

Does a fact taste like chicken?

See my earlier post about me supporting Harry and Luna or Conrad and Yuuri if you disbelieve that's never happened to me.

I like Harry/Luna too. Doesn't get enough fanwork. >(

LOL MULTIPLE FONTS, WTF MICROSOFT WORD.

 

[Kikyou]

The canon of a fandom is the truth of the fandom set by the creators. The word canon comes from the 'canon books of the bible'. As most people know, there are a lot more 'books'/dead sea scrolls that were found than are put into the bible. The leaders of the religion chose which books were canon, ie. the truth, and formed the bible.

Now the word is used for fandoms to diferientiate personal interpretation to the truth that was intended.

@Drake:

And of course you still like Clerith more. It's teh smex.

I find that incredibly funny. 'Cause shipping wars are funny and depending on your religious views, it could be baseless. And it is, since followers of Christ put emphasis on faith.

 

[Madame Mayor]

If you're curious as to why some people feel that way about Clerith, there's always a site out there that expresses their views.

Yes, and the site makes very little sense and contradicts itself and the creators statements over and over again. It's just customary when someone comes here who says they see Clerith in FFVII or AC to ask them why. Because there's nothing really to indicate it and we have yet to have a Clerith come and point out a point in the plots where Cloud shows romantic interest in Aerith. That's all.

Liking Clerith is fine and everything, it's a great pairing, it's just when people say it's canon that there's a problem.

And sorry, as I said earlier, I wasn't here to prove my views are canon, just share them.

And obviously that's not what you are saying, I was just still curious as to if there were certain lines or scenes that made you see that in the game/movie is all.

I find that incredibly funny. 'Cause shipping wars are funny and depending on your religious views, it could be baseless. And it is, since followers of Christ put emphasis on faith.

What I said has nothing to do with the religion itself (ie, what your average christian/catholic believes), it's just the origin of the word. The word itself has to do with the creators of something deciding what is right and what is wrong. And therefore the person saying that the creators of a fandom don't decide canon doesn't understand the word they are using.

 

[Kikyou]

And obviously that's not what you are saying, I was just still curious as to if there were certain lines or scenes that made you see that in the game/movie is all.


What I said has nothing to do with the religion itself (ie, what your average christian/catholic believes), it's just the origin of the word. The word itself has to do with the creators of something deciding what is right and what is wrong. And therefore the person saying that the creators of a fandom don't decide canon doesn't understand the word they are using.

If I was trying to prove them, I would've provided specific textual content to back it up. Analysis requires textual evidence. I was just referring general examples and giving you my opinion.

I didn't clarify well. I meant to compare the heat in fandom debate and religious debate. I think one of them means a lot more than the other. But they're both taken equally srsly, I think.

EDIT: I just realized how incoherent I am. Going to go to starbucks and class now.

 

[Madame Mayor]

If I was trying to prove them, I would've provided specific textual content to back it up. Analysis requires textual evidence. I was just referring general examples and giving you my opinion.

No problem, I understand. Again it's just a general curiosity as to how people see Clerith in these things because we really and honestly want to know. Just like you said trying to understand the other person's views.

This is different too than wondering how people read what the creators say and still see Clerith.

I didn't clarify well. I meant to compare the heat in fandom debate and religious debate. I think one of them means a lot more than the other. But they're both taken equally srsly, I think.

Ah, I get what you mean. Yes, this is very true. Especially considering how cult like one certain pairing fandom has become. XP

 

[Eerie]

A situation that occurred in France a few years ago and that I remembered recently while joking about it, is that a modern art museum had a painting hanging on their walls for years and everyone based their interpretations on it like that.
However, they found a photograph of the artist and his painting... hanging upside down in his studio. In the end, they put it the right way... and all interpretations went down to waste [the things you learn when you learn History of Art ].
I think that you get what I mean now: even if you have an interpretation, in the end, all interpretations are NOT valid. If they were, the museum could just let hang that painting upside down - it's modern art, so it's not like it matters *gets shot* - however because it wasn't the artist's intent, they changed it.

With FF7, or any fandom created by a writer/mangaka/whatever, it's the same. If the creators tell you: it's that way, then, even if you don't like it, it's that way. Accepting the canon and liking it are two separate things [as with my Clerith fan hating CloTi but admiting it's canon].

Which means that:

And I'm saying that once the Game is released, the degree to which the Creators' words mean anything is questionable, IMO.

.. is pure shit In a story, once the creator releases something, his intent can be disregarded? Then, WHY BOTHER? Just throw random characters in and make them have 0 interaction, since it doesn't matter! The intent of the creator is that most people understand the same thing from his work. There will ALWAYS be people who'll believe otherwise, but as long as the mass gets it, then it's fine.

And if the mass don't want to listen, then be bolder - like Rowling with HP and her pairings, but I firmly believes that it's just because she's not really good at romance. Or even, just with AC and ACC. ACC cleared out a lot of things and fleshed out characters more - so much that even Drake now agrees that CloTi is canon

Also:

Then again, this is one of those people who says that since Cloud and Tifa don't say "I love you", they aren't canon...

Damn, I've been fooled then. I mean, there was and is never ILU between me and my bf. For 13 years now. It's incredible, what people need to believe in love nowadays

 

[Celes Chere]

Welcome to the dark side Drake. We got booze here.

And cookies! And awesome.

I don't really think Cloud was Zack in the entire first part of the game. His memories are muddled for sure, but I'd like to think the human psyche is much more complicated than that. Are memories (and I think only a specific portion of them were confused) what forms the person, or does a person and their personality control how the memories peddle out? I think it's a mixture of both. Differences in persona are seen as early as childhood and our experiences do change us. And how we act and view things alters the situation. So I think that this Cloud, who has been influenced by Zack and still retains some of his original "self", is capable of loving Aerith and did so while she was alive.

It's true that Cloud wasn't Zack, but Zack's personality and memories were a heavy influence on the way he acted. This is all over the Ultimania- it's drenched with that kind of stuff. That's why when it says that the reason Aerith acts the way she does around Cloud because of Zack, and that everything in Crisis Core makes FFVII now clear to us fans, that I think it should be crystal clear that Aerith saw a lot of Zack within Cloud. Aerith had a desire to meet the real Cloud, but I don't find that to be in a romantic sense. Aerith makes it very clear that she separates the two, but does that mean she's giving Zack up for Cloud, just because she cares for Cloud and wants to meet him? Of course not, in fact, I find that that idea is a bit silly. She doesn't even know this man and yet, people insist that her wanting to meet him is out of a romantic desire. Shouldn't a friendship be formed first? I believe that some of the real Cloud was there, trapped- but there. This Cloud however, could rarely respond. (Notice that the real Cloud tries communicating with the fake- "What are you doing at a place like this?" etc) I think like Zee said a long time ago- it's like Cloud is watching his world go by but can't say or do anything about it. I think he remembers Aerith for the kind and loving person she was, and I do think she reached the real Cloud. Just not enough for it to form a stable, solid relationship. I really cannot understand why Aerith who has a desire to know Cloud, tops Tifa who knows the real Cloud, knows he's different in the game, is the only person who can save his soul (and does), and then lives with him for the remainder of FFVII is just a mere friend. Furthermore, it's never been proven to me that Cloud has ever stopped loving Tifa.

Done. 'Cause you asked nicely. 8D

Well, thank ya kindly.

And I like that game, and the gameplay, and Sora, and Disney. stfu. >(
... but if you want KH2 Atlantica, or the FFX-2 faeries, TAKE THEM.

Haha, I love the KH games myself, actually.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So M-Mira, are you saying that you prefer Cloud/Aerith, but accept the fact that Cloud/Tifa maybe canon as stated by the creators?

 

[Isabella]

If you're curious as to why some people feel that way about Clerith, there's always a site out there that expresses their views. But I wouldn't read them unless you know you won't get high blood pressure reading the opposing views.

The lack of consistency can be amusing, but the only part that really raises blood pressure is the character assassinations required for Clerith to work. For example:

In fact, during CoT, Tifa was shown wishing time and time again that Cloud would change. His mannerisms seemed to bother and/or annoy her at times-- Tifa didn't like Cloud's names for the bar, she laughed at the fact that Cloud didn't know the names of a lot of fruits and vegetables, she didn't understand Cloud's need to be alone at times, she didn't know how to speak about her feelings to Cloud, and Tifa selfishly ignored Cloud's belief that Denzel had been brought to him by Aerith in favor of her own ideas that Denzel had been brought to Cloud just to be brought to her (as payment for her sins while she was a member of AVALANCHE).

Wow, this Tifa character is a bitch! She laughs at Cloud, mocks him, tries to change him, and is totally selfish.

This characterization, naturally, is totally in line with how SE intended her to be depicted. Oh, wait ...

Apart from being Cloud&#8217;s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him.

 

[Frostwave]

Bella, my blood pressure went up reading that!!!!

 

[Dashell]

The lack of consistency can be amusing, but the only part that really raises blood pressure is the character assassinations required for Clerith to work. For example:


Wow, this Tifa character is a bitch! She laughs at Cloud, mocks him, tries to change him, and is totally selfish.

This characterization, naturally, is totally in line with how SE intended her to be depicted. Oh, wait ...

.... oh my god... What the hell is wrong with...?

ugh....

I don't think I can hard enough. (in response to Anonymous Clerith obviously)

As for my debater on the other forums... we're done now, he sorta backed out cause he got bored with it. But yeah he didn't actually mean what I thought he meant... oh wells. As long as he like CxT I guess...

 

[Isabella]

Bella, my blood pressure went up reading that!!!!

Sorry, maybe I should've put a health warning on it.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Actually, I enjoyed reading that. It's fairly obvious that the author of that little piece was feeling threatened by the competition.

 

[Frostwave]

So, any time Aerith teases Cloud, she's really abusing him by this person's standards. O wait, that's when the double comes in. *heehee*

 

[Dashell]

I wanna say something but I'll probably get in trouble... maybe if I just word it carefully.

How do you say, "Every single thing you just said was completely and utterly wrong." carefully?

 

[KissTheRain]

Again it's just a general curiosity as to how people see Clerith in these things because we really and honestly want to know. Just like you said trying to understand the other person's views.

I see the attraction in all of LTD FFVII couples personally and the slight romance so I wonder how anyone could say that one didn't have the possibility. Not saying they have to like it, but Clerith, Cloti, and Zerith are all a a bit canon just because of romantic feelings with the people in the relationships even if it may be one sided, mutual, stalker Cloud there seems to be some way that makes people think it is canon. Oh jeez, that's my opinion so n/m this is debate. D:< So umm...

One reason people could consider CxA canon is like Isabella has said the red herring idea, that tricked you to believe they were the real pairing, but really weren't but many didn't notice and then believed Clerith was the pairing, and then when you saw her in AC and assumined he still loved her.

OR, quotes like "undying feelings" and what could be romantic along with Cloud wanting to meet her and grieving her. I've also seen some claim the scene in Cosmo Canyon was romantic. They could think Cloud's mother telling him to get an older gf as foreshadowing and think Cloud is yearning for Aerith in a loving way in the hand reach.

OR, maybe when you got into the fandom you started out with some biases Clerith's and they led you to believe it was canon.

There is plenty more reasons i'm sure, not always good ones, but sadly what are ya gonna do about it? =.=;

that I think it should be crystal clear that Aerith saw a lot of Zack within Cloud.

Yes m'dear I think there are even quotes to prove it. But, then also we know that Aerith has said she knows they are different and wants to meet the real Cloud, like you said doesn't need to be romantic which is perfectly true, but now Aerith has said she loves Cloud, even if it is a sorta fake Cloud she does now. BUT, she could still love Zack for all we know and Cloud. O:

So all in all, Clerith is canon the end.

Lulz, lulz only kidding I know it's not. Of course I think nothing is canon. *sigh* Though to kiss some ass honestly, I think Cloti defiantly has the better chance to become canon. (You can love a dead girl fine, date her erm..) but still isn't, sorry. U_U I'd say if there was another spin off it would help lean me a bit.

Wow, this Tifa character is a bitch! She laughs at Cloud, mocks him, tries to change him, and is totally selfish.

Personally I thought she was bonding with her best friend/boyfriend and was teasing him a little which is a-freakin'-dorable. I could understand how someone could think that way of the scene though, sadly.

 

[Isabella]

I've laughed at a boyfriend before when he did something silly and/or childish. But it wasn't in a callous way, it was in a "that's too adorable" way. I guess that seals the deal: I'm a total bitch.

 

[Dashell]

But we still love you