Once again, I respond to our persistent
front page responder who seems to have a habit of confusing things I say with things others say, and who will not trust me unless I censor or censure other people.
Eidolon said:
Reply all you want on the forum. The fact that you aren’t even reprimanding Vendel how he treats people on the front page is something that should be worth looking into, and STILL you aren’t doing anything to make him stop cussing people out. :/
Because we don't censor people on the forum or the frontpage. That's the point. You won't be censored unless your commentary is blatantly spam, pornographic, or endorsing illegal acts.
OK so I just posted that like so many times already. :/ I am NOT saying that they don’t exist – that family. I am just saying that the supposed happy family that you guys are painting up to be – CloTi ending much OMG ONEONEONE – isn’t anywhere at ALL pointing to that fact. You have a novella and a movie going against your claims. The ending of Case of Tifa WAS clearly saying that whatever happiness Cloud had was really short lived and was THAT illusion that they have finally moved on, and that was the same in Advent Children.
The ending of Case of Tifa says nothing of the sort, and Advent Children shows Cloud getting OVER the problems that keep him from letting himself indulge in his happiness and heading home. We have been told, flat out that "The happier Cloud is living with Tifa and the children, the more the past weighs on him."
The point is not 'their happiness was an illusion' but 'Cloud's demons tortured him more the happier he was.'
The fact is again, dear, Squeenix already allowed that to be put on the manual. If you are going BY that reasoning, then it is CANON and we really shouldn’t argue much about it now. :/
Then so are all the other statements, and we have a contradiction between canon information and the preponderance of the canon lies in favor of Cloud never being a SOLDIER. The story, in fact, makes no sense if Cloud was in SOLDIER.
:/ OK, you’re backpedaling. I didn’t say that, I even included that and added it to the whole love triangle debate, and you explicitly said that it had no bearing whatsoever on the relationship.
I'm not saying you said that kiddo, nor am I backpedaling. What I'm saying is that none of my initial statements nor in fact the whole of my argument really cares just how close the two of them were, since we know that close or not, the two were interested in each other before Nibelheim.
I am also saying that the lack of closeness is no real issue for the one pair. If it is, then it must logically be for the other. Ergo, even if they were not close at all, then it is no impedement to C/T, just as it would not be to C/A.
>.> But even then, even if Tifa had all the makings of becoming that one true love for Cloud, why is it that Squeenix didn’t decide to end it then and there and allow it to be dragged on more and more? Also, wow. You just contradicted yourself. You already acknowledged how Aerith got over Zack and saw Cloud more than just being a “carbon copy” of Zack.
Actually, I acknolwedged she realized they were different people. I disagree that she 'got over' Zack. And her emotions for Zack do influence her emotions for Cloud up until (and maybe after, you never know) the point she realizes she's been conflating the two.
I have been writing my arguments on a daily basis here and I wonder why you haven’t SEEN what I wrote, just dismissing it as a strawman argument this and that.
I call your responses strawmen arguments because
they do not address the actual arguments I have been putting forth. Instead, you've been addressing things that are not my argument in the slightest.
And really, I am just presenting my opinion on this, and how it even got to this point boggles the mind.
No. You are not. An opinion is "I like Clerith as a pairing better than Cloti." What you've been doing here is arguing to establish the point that C/T is false.
:/ if any, you’re the culprit in that one not me – just because you find yourself a Clerith you guys must think it’s alright to outright cuss and say all my arguments are invalid on the account of that single piece of paper going against novella, movie and ingame evidence.
"Because you're mean" is no valid counterargument, especially not when you aren't actually getting any special treatment. Vendel's a dick. Whoo. He's a dick to everyone.
And it's no single piece of paper, nor does it actually go against the game, movie, or novella, just your interpretation of such. And the sourcebooks paint a very different picture of the meaning behind that novella than your interpretation.
No, you just admitted Clerith. :3 admit it.
... Unless "Clerith" means solely "Aerith likes Cloud and fuck what chocobutt thinks"- and oftentimes it does seem to be using that very definition when I talk with people- I have done no such thing.
As for your arguments to the points I pointed out how everyone should figure in the love triangle – um – that is a bit unorthodox? >.> Or whatever. The fact is we are discussing the triangle here. And no Zack does not count – Aerith was always the person Cloud SAW in his visions and not Zack until the end.
You are wholly and blatantly wrong on this fact. And yes, Zack is ENTIRELY relevant.
:/ also LOL. Now why put Ergheiz in here? This discussion is about that flower scene, and other AU games with just the 2 of them involved. And yes 14. It makes a WHOLE lot of difference. Your assumption that their feelings match is going against a lot of contradictions and you know it.
It is no assumption. 8 times it has been said that their feelings match. You say these go up against 'a lot of contradictions' but what are these contradictions? Can you name any? Can you actually demonstrate that they do contradict this point?
:/ To drive the point further, yes, it’s optional. And optional must mean that they aren’t canon right? :/
Nope. Optional means you have a choice. You can always pick the wrong choice. Sometimes there is no 'correct' choice, as is apparently the case with the dates. Sometimes there IS a correct choice, like getting Yuffie and Vincent for your team, or visiting Lucrecia by the waterfall. These things are optional, but canon. Just like the High Highwind scene, which was included as the version in two separate editions of Memorial Album, essentially an authorized game script.
For the record, all four dates were shown in both editions of that book.
And we know how they contradict each other too right? >.> yeah, VERY valid. The point here is that how you seem to see CloTi even when evidence and common sense tell you otherwise, and force feeding that to people who have another opinion about it. The general atmosphere of the first few pages of these posts, OMG.
You claim they contradict each other. Please, explain how.
Kid, you're trying to claim that Clerith is the natural and default response to that. This is not the case. At all. And even if it were, it's entirely possible for the 'non fans' to be entirely wrong. They have been many many times. Hell, actual fans have been wrong. R=U, for one.
The jist of the scene is that Cloud telling Tifa that they can meet Aerith again, and Tifa going 'Yes, let's go meet her'
how did you get that from my posts I don’t even…
It's very simple.
You were getting simple facts about the canon wrong. You were accusing everyone of Bias, and denying any validity to the C/T conclusion by throwing around 'optional' this and 'optional' that. It was very simple, actually. All I did was summarize what I saw you doing.
So which one is more canon then? The first or the second version of AC? :/
ACC is the definitive version, but it's irrelevant, as BOTH versions have Rufus buttering Cloud up and Cloud reminding him that he was never SOLDIER, that it was all in his head.
SOLDIER is just some kind of rank anyway when it all boils down to it – as people who are 1st Class just show how badass they are and SOLDIER was just something to distinguish them above the rest. Also, it’s an ended argument, if that is what is said in the manual, Squeenix says it’s canon, and shouldn’t even be argued about. :/ so let’s just let it slide OK?
No.
SOLDIER is a Paramilitary group to which Cloud never belonged. He was never a SOLDIER. Manuals are at the lowest of the low end of officiality scales, especially translated ones which get basic facts from the game wrong. Cloud was never in SOLDIER. Cloud and Tifa never ran an orphanage.
Please refer to the 2nd post you made right after jumping in the bandwagon with this whole CloTi argument. OK, I give you probably don’t have the power or whatever regarding those people attacking people who formed opinions in the first few pages of these debates – but still. At best you could have done something about them, and maybe then I will believe you.
You haven't been offering an opinion, as I detailed above. My second post towards you called your conclusions wrong as 'based on false data' which is not calling you delusional.
As for the arguments of other people, I will not censor them as I will not censor you, unless you are Vendel does something reprehensible, which at the moment, he's not doing and neither are you.
Also, your first foray into this debate tackling me as well. If that does not reek of CloTi then I dunno what is.
It 'reeks' dear child, of someone who's seen this little song and dance for years and years. Your tactics are all old hat.
:/ was there something foul in that first original post I made? Did you even read it? Or the posts after it even?
In the first post, no. In subsequent ones, yes, actually. And I did read all your posts. Very rambly. A bit incoherent at times.
Where is it that I attacked CloTi and denied the existence of their relationship?
Arguably every post you have made since the first one.
I have even posted stuff that you SAY I didn’t see.
I don't recall accusing you of not reading things. I recall expressing the idea of you misreading things, mostly my arguments, and a single comment of 'If you've not watched ACC.'
And oddly enough, you DON’T see and backpedal again and again. :/ but then again it’s all optional, and we know how THAT is. That hurts the validity of what you are pointing out to something more than that wasn’t SHOWN in the novella and the movie itself.
It's not all optional. And much of what is optional has still been revealed as canon.
But you argue that several things were not shown in the movie and the novella, but you're arguing in favor of things flatly contradicted by games, movies, novellas, and sourcebooks.
We've been told numerous times that feelings are matched underneath the highwind that night. Due to its inclusion under the 'for the one I love' heading, these feelings include a revelation or demonstration of a romantic nature, as do all the other scenes shown under the heading, including at least 3/4 gold saucer dates. We have also been told that nothing happens in the short version, that it is apathetic. Taking all of these in aggregate, we discover that Feelings were confirmed and match. We find that these feelings- of a romantic nature- were confirmed without the use of words. We find that in only one version of the scene did feelings get confirmed.
This does not mean 'We do not know which of the two options occurred' it means 'the low version, where nothing is confirmed, did not happen'
Cloud and Tifa confirmed their feelings underneath the highwind. We've been told about this 8 times total, including this page which decided to include it alongside all the other instance of interparty PDRAs in the first ten games.
It's all very simple. And the long and the short of it is that the pairing is not optional, and it is canon. Just like Cecil and Rosa. Just like Locke and Celes. Just like Rinoa and Squall. Just like Zidane and Garnet. Just like Steiner and Beatrix. Just like Tidus and Yuna.
All these couples had visible displays of romantic affection in their games. So too did Cloud and Tifa. QED.
