Tres
Chantara wrote: IMO, she should know Cloud's feelings if the HA version had happened and things had been as lovey-dovey as you imagine between them.
You're the only one saying that the high affection scene = lovey doviness. The rest of us readily acknowledge that the couple has issues. Hell, the writer of the game and movie acknowledges it.
Well, if you recognize that Cloud and Tifa continue to have issues like Nojima stated, you must realize that "mutual feelings" can refer to feelings other than love?
And you're now admitting to applying a double standard.
LOL... okay. I love how you guys toss that phrase around like it's candy.
You say that in the case of the low affection version, Tifa could have questions about Cloud's feelings for her two years later because feelings can change. Meanwhile, you say that in the case of the high affection version, Tifa shouldn't have any doubts about Cloud's feelings for her two years later.
You refuse to apply the same standard to anything when it comes to this scene.
Well, you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that she can't have
doubts - but in order to have doubts, then she was told that Cloud loves her under the HW.
I was saying that it sounds to me like she's never been told in the first place, and doesn't know because she's never been told - in which case, the HA version never happened.
And since we don't know for sure which way is true, either interpretation is possible.
Anastar wrote: The fact is, there has been absolutely no confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa - plain and simple. You build a case on non-evidence, and then you tell me that I'm not connecting the dots?
What lack of confirmation? Pg. 24 of the Crisis Core Ultimania doesn't say that Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was younger?
How does that confirm he's in love with her
NOW? I'm no longer in love with a giuy I was in love with in college. Same with a guy I had a crush on in sixth grade. So how does a distant crush on someone he barely knew mean that he's still in love now?
The CC Ultimania said that Cloud was
dimly in love, which means a crush. Tifa said they didn't know one another that well during the Lifestream event, so they barely knew one another. Therefore, it was a distant crush.
Cloud's subconscious doesn't reveal this fact to Tifa in the Lifestream?
Once again, he was talking about his feelings for her as a kid. What he felt for her as a kid doesn't mean he feels the same way seven years later. That's no confirmation.
His subconscious doesn't tell Tifa that she should tell Cloud about liking him later, because it will make him happy?
You're reading into it. What he says in the Lifestream is that it will make the current Cloud happy if Tifa tells the current Cloud that she looked for him in the newspapers after he left to join SOLDIER. For all we know, that could means that he'll be happy to learn that his plan worked - he got her to notice him. It doesn't confirm that she's currently in love with Cloud or vice versa.
So, no, darling, I'm not the one making a case on non-evidence.
Keep calling me darling, and you'll start rumors about us.
Cloud greets Yuffie warmly because of the night spent with Tifa. The two lines are in the paragraph together -- a paragraph sectioned off from the surrounding text on the rest of the page, mind you -- for a reason.
That reason is not to ask you to search high and low for a meaning to be deciphered based on the belief that basic writing tools were not employed.
Without going back to sixth grade grammar classes (don't worry; I won't ask you to map out what's a noun, adjective, verb, gerund, etc.), that's how you construct a paragraph: you put lines together in a paragraph that, together, convey a particular idea or set of ideas.
Trouble is, those two lines are in separate paragraphs - at least, according to the scan I was given. I was taught that separate ideas went in separate paragraphs.
Okay... we see that Cloud gives her a nice greeting the next morning. Then underneath that, it says (in a separate paragraph) that Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.
As I read it, that means that Cloud and Tifa spending the night together
COULD be the reason that Cloud's acting nice to Yuffie, but it's nothing definite. Like I said before, it could just as easily be that he's happy because the rest of Avalanche has returned for the fight in the Northern Crater.
Come to think of it, Cloud and Tifa are both nervous when they come back on board the HW the next morning because they think they're alone:
(They walk together toward the Highwind. It begins to lower to the ground as the scene fades. It fades back in to show the walkway to the bridge. Tifa is following Cloud there.)
Tifa "The airship is too big for just the two of us."
"Yeah, it's a little lonely without everyone." (Cloud turns around to face her.)
Cloud "Don't worry. It'll be okay."
(He does his squat-thrusts.)
Cloud "I'll make a big enough ruckus for everyone."
(He stops and straightens his hair.)
Cloud "Besides, I'm the pilot."
"No more flying around casually like before."
"We won't have time to feel lonely."
(She nods. A long pause. Suddenly, the entire Highwind shakes as the engines fire up.)
Tifa "Huh!?"
(She looks around.)
Cloud "It's moving......"
(They dash to the bridge. They find Cait Sith dozing in one corner. They run past him and find Barret and Cid working with the pilot's controls.) Cloud "Barret! Cid!"
Then they welcome back Barret, Cid, RedXIII, Cait Sith, and Vincent before they even realize that Yuffie came back. I could quote the rest of the dialogue, but it's a bit long. So Cloud was reassuring Tifa as they came back on board, then he's aware that the others come back and greets each one of them.
Then Yuffie shows up, and he welcomes her right before he thanks everyone.
Are you so sure that he's acting happy because of the night he spent with Tifa? Seems to me like he's already forgotten about the night before - the others returning and their upcoming fight is the main thing on his mind.
Anastar wrote: I think it would be clearer if it said something like, "Yuffie didn't know that Cloud was being nice to her because he and Tifa had spent the night together."
God's sake, it couldn't be any clearer. The comment is sectioned off from everything else. Within that section, you have Yuffie's quote, you have the line identifying when she said it, and then you have the explanation that she was unaware of Cloud and Tifa spending the night together.
See? You agree - it would be clearer that way.
Now, are you ready to put away your secret decoder ring and have an honest discussion?
You put yours away first.
Where in the text of the low affection version do you see such a thing discussed?
Where in the text of the high affection version do you see Cloud say, "I love you"?
Have you seriously retreated back into questioning whether the high affection version of the scene is romantic? Wow.
And stop avoiding the question: where in the text of the low affection version do you see a discussion about what you claim is there?
In the same place I see a discussion of what supposedly takes place in the HA version. It's not said in the HA version, so why does it have to be said in the LA version?
If you're wondering where I got the idea that they only talk about friendship in the LA version, I get that idea from several things: 1) SE
calls it the
Low Affection Version, which means
no romance. 2) Cloud and Tifa are obviously still friends if you get the LA version, so it can't mean the affection level is so low that they now despise one another. 3) The Low Affection version is described by SE as being "apathetic" and short. You can find that meaning in the meaning of "
apathetic" if you promise to look at the second meaning as well as the first:
ap a thet ic ~adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic
Now, look at the synonyms:
1. unfeeling, impassive, cool.
2. uninterested, unconcerned.
Now, once again - we know that Cloud and Tifa remain friends, even if you get the LA version, right? Therefore, the meanings of
indifferent,
unconcerned,
uninterested,
unresponsive, and
unfeeling have to pertain to their romantic feelings for one another.
Furthermore, if the High Affection version is romantic, then the Low Affection version would obviously be unromantic. You can even use your decoder ring to figure it out, if you want.
Anastar wrote: But SE has never said it's the actual outcome. All they did was use one version instead of the other in some places, say that both versions happen in other places, and be non-specific about which version happened in other places.
No, they have never said that both versions happen. They have said that both versions are available to the player. That is not the same as -- within the body of a story summary -- saying two mutually exclusive events have taken place.
Once again, I remind you of the quote given to us by Sesc on this page:
http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086
It's Nomura saying that he has no clue on whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship going between FFVII and AC. That same quote is cited here:
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB
But we never had a source for it until Sesc found it. At any rate, Nomura said that after the release of AC. So if he didn't know whether they had a romantic relationship, that means the HA version of the HW scene can't be canon.
Ariadne wrote: So we're back to you claiming that scenes subject to player influence don't have canon outcomes?
I never stopped saying it.
Um, yes, you did:
Anastar wrote: Yes, some scenes have a canon outcome, but not all scenes.
Please stop playing word games, okay?
I never said that scenes with optional outcomes can't have a canon outcome.
Anastar wrote: Yes, that is true for SOME optional scenes. However, I do not think that is true for ALL optional scenes.
I still believe the same thing. An optional scene
CAN have a canon outcome, but it doesn't
HAVE to have a canon outcome.
Seems that Nomura agrees with me here:
http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086
He's basically saying that SE left it up to player interpretation.
You're not asking for the same standards at all. You're willing to accept that FFV's happy ending happened because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFV says it did. You're willing to accept that Terra had her revelation about love because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFVI says it did.
And now I'm not ready to accept that because people have told me different versions of what evidence is actually available.
And once again, Nomura pretty much says there is no canon outcome to the HW scene on this page:
http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086
The same source is quoted here:
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB
But, no, multiple story summaries, plus other materials besides saying that the high affection Highwind scene took place and is one of FFVII's most important scenes means jackshit all. Goddamn, I wish I could approach at least one notion in all the world with such single-minded devotion.
Yep, it means jackshit when we have the director of Advent Children saying that he doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC, and when we have pages in the U20 and in the FFVII UO saying there are two versions of the Highwind scene that depend on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
Anastar wrote: I think SE's making it ambiguous what feelings are being discussed because they want it left up to the player.
How are you able to say this sort of thing and believe it yourself while simultaneously claiming that SE wants us to think Cloud stopped to see Aerith in a flower field in a retconned portion of AC/C after a) Zack and Aerith already said their goodbyes to Cloud, and b) the 10th AU's story summary for the movie already said that Aerith and Zack went back to the Lifestream?
Something like that is supposedly so clear, but the outcome of the Highwind scene isn't? Peeps, wipe your shoes, and somebody please light a match.
Tell ye what. I'll stop with the accusations when you stop with the accusations - okay? Next time anyone says anything like this, I'm just ignoring it. I can't be bothered wasting my time with this pettiness.
Anastar wrote: And that means he loves her now? It can't mean that he's just glad to find out that his tactics worked? He wanted her to pay attention to him - she did. How do you know he wasn't just happy to hear that?
Just for shits and giggles, can you even provide so much as an official quote from anywhere saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith in a past tense setting? That's possibly the funniest thing about all this.
Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~ CoLW, by Nojima
Anastar wrote: But why do they have to confirm it under the HW if they already told one another about it in the Lifestream? It shouldn't be news under the HW if they already told one another.
Cloud's subconscious becoming aware of Tifa's feelings and informing her of his is not the same thing as the repaired, recovered Cloud and Tifa sorting out where they stand on their feelings for each other.
In any event, your comeback here is pointless regardless of what feelings you think Cloud and Tifa have for each other, because Tifa's profile from the 10th AU says that Cloud and Tifa became aware of the feelings each other had while in the Lifestream -- yet they still need to confirm those feelings to be mutual the night before they head into the Northern Crater to face down Seph.
You mean this statement?
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.
Doesn't specify what feelings, does it? Crap, it doesn't even specify whether the thoughts/feelings are about each other, or about the Promise, or about Tifa's fall from the bridge, or about the Nibelheim incident, or what.
If you ask me, it doesn't specify because it's possible for Cloud and Tifa to confirm feelings of High Affection (romance) or Low Affection (no romance), and SE wanted to leave it open for interpretation.
Do they not need to talk about their feelings if they included romantic interest (a rather complicated topic) in one another, yet friendship/support required it?
I'm just saying that their feelings (whether romantic or unromantic) weren't confirmed in the Lifestream, and you seem to agree.
Yeah, I got the impression one might need such in this thread... 
