So, you've been given a sound drumming already, but unlike you, I have the courtesy to respond to people. Even you.
Ryu
Trouble is, the two people realizing mutual romantic feelings under the stars is completely optional. SE even says it's optional, and has never declared a default or canon outcome for that scene except in your imagination. YOU accept one version as canon, but it is not canon according to the standards of a great many people outside of TLS.
No. It's not optional. It is. You keep saying it is optional, but nothing says confirmation of romantic feelings optional. The closest you can come is a deviation saying that the feelings are shared earnestly in one version, but the quotes are very consistent that feelings are shared, and the quote in question is entirely version agnostic and matter of fact.
Since it is optional, that makes all of your interpretation about their relationship in AC/ACC and afterwards up to speculation.
Nothing of 'moving in with each other, forming a family together, belonging with each other, and having a future together.' is speculation. Please, stop pretending that facts are opinions simply because I am relaying them.
Here's a Clerith friend explaining what I just said in different words:
Why do you think we Cleriths focus so much on the outcome of that scene?
Because you know full well that admitting one outcome kills all hope of your ship being canon, Shroudypoo.
And I note your habit of responding from afar hasn't changed in the what, seven years or so since I first had the displeasure of your company.
Cloud having a separate room?
As has been asked many times, please prove that they have seperate bedrooms. Cloud's office is merely his office. This is no different from my parents having their own home offices.
Tifa wanting to know if Cloud loves her in COT? Them not showing any signs of intimacy despite claims of them having sex on top of a rock?
You say this like rocks are impossible to be comfortable on? Are these the invisible pointy rocks of doom again, Shroudypoo?
These are what you call outcomes that's beyond player control. That's what makes an optional scene canon other than the creators saying so. ~Shrouded
Well said, Shrouded. Everything that happens after the HW scene can be interpreted according to the HA version as well as the LA version. There is absolutely nothing that confirms one version or the other actually happened.
Except Memorial Album, the UO, the U10, etc.
And let me echo that repeating the words of Shroudypoo in a positive light reflects badly on you, not positively on him. Shroudy's pretty much the Tana of your fandom.
You talk about story summaries as validating one version. Please. That's contradicted by the fact that Cloud and Tifa are shown to have separate rooms.
1. You don't know the meaning of the word contradicted. Or fact, apparently.
2. Please, do show us Tifa's room, since we are 'shown' that they have seperate sleeping quarters.
That's contradicted by the fact that we have seen NO hint of behaviors that would confirm them as a couple - for example, a kiss or a hug or an "I love you" - in a non-optional scene.
Which means that everything you're about to argue for in favor of Clerith is a hypocritical double standard, as THEY have never done any of what you claim either, and don't even have the option to express romance.
No, I no longer accept the story summaries as confirming evidence for the things with Shadow and Terra, since I wasn't given a full explanation of it.
Then please, be consistent, and stop using the AC story summary to claim that the church is Cloud's promised land. Not that you were being honest about that quote in the first place.
It is interesting, though, that you are declaring official story summaries- literally, a record of the events contained in a narrative- is insufficient to tell us the contents OF THAT NARRATIVE. Do you realize just how obdurate and asinine you sound, now? You're saying that story summaries are completely inable to inform us about a story, but that deviations, listed as part of a story summary, are completely able to inform us about a story and trump all other summaries.
And you were given a goddamn full explanation of Shadow AND Terra's situation. You just chose not to read it.
Once again, it's only official in your opinion. Your opinion is not shared by many other people outside of this forum.
Not my opinion. High Highwind is listed among three other scenes as the most important in FF7. It's actually the heading of those two pages- important scenes.
And again, that the feelings are confirmed entirely agnostic to a version is not my opinion, that's what's said. Romantic feelings are confirmed, period, end of, no ifs or whens. Even he deviation of p232 does not say anything specifically about romance.
A canon that you created, not SE.
I could play coy here and go with 'But you admit it's still canon, QED' here, but I'll be bigger than that and note, it is not a canon I created. It is a canon that SE has put down in the materials for FF6 by noting him as being recruited in the World of Ruin, and joining the battle against Kefka, WITHOUT needing to explicitly tell us the choice made on the floating continent.
Y'know, Anastar, a question- You've never played FF6. What final fantasies have you played?
Sorry, I don't consider a story summary to be enough evidence. It needs to happen in the actual game or movie or novella before I believe it.
So, even though ALL the events discussed- Shadow's recruitment, Terra's expression of love towards the children, and the Highwind scene- ALL happen IN AN ACTUAL GAME, as you demanded they must be, it's not sufficient because we refer to story summaries, quite literally showing these events from the games.
You're grasping at straws here. The story summaries are telling us that which happened IN the game. Many things can happen, the summaries tell us what did.
The trouble with your story summary evidence is that what happens in the game/movie/novella can contradict what you accept as canon, such as Cloud having a separate bedroom.
See, you keep saying this, and on three levels, it keeps making no sense.
Firstly, Cloud having his own bedroom would not CONTRADICT an admission of romance that night. Your use of contradict here is misapplied.
Secondly, Cloud has never said to have a seperate BEDROOM. Merely his own OFFICE.
Thirdly, again, the story summary is showing us which game events actually occurred, using screencaptures from the game itself.
Nope, it isn't enough now that someone has informed me that Shadow doesn't actually appear in the game after the death scene. I was assuming that he was seen in the game. If he doesn't appear in the game, then I don't accept a picture of him in a story summary as evidence that he survives.
You are flatly misunderstanding this then.
We have a divergent path. Shadow can A: DIE or B: LIVE.
IF A: Shadow VANISHES FROM THE GAME ENTIRELY.
If B: Shadow appears later in the game.
Story summary shows us events, with screenshots, of Shadow being recruited and fighting the final boss. Likewise the FF7 summary shows us, with screenshots, which version of the HW scene's divergent path actually happened.
And I find your need to constantly find evidence outside of the Compilation to prove your point ridiculous. Try using evidence from the Compilation for a change.
I'm using examples from outside the compilation to provide examples for the logic presented. The person here who uses outside compilation materials to try and prove her point is YOU, Aly. Or does Kingdom Hearts count as compilation to you?
Personally, I don't give two craps whether Nomura not knowing ruins the idea of canon for Star Wars.
Wow, way to reveal you are not reading for comprehension. My example was to highlight the idea that your argument relies on the idea that canon can't be changed. You apparently missed that. I was trying not to be too insulting and spell it out, but I suppose I must.
It pertains to the Compilation. Nomura wrote a good part of FFVII as well as AC/ACC.
No. Nojima wrote it. Nomura's writing for 7 is as limited as Kitase's- Killing of Aerith and the Lifestream concept, respectively.
If he doesn't know or care what Cloud and Tifa's relationship is or whether they are romantically involved, then that's what the story is supposed to be. Their relationship is up to interpretation, like I've been saying from the start.
One year prior, the man says a profound truth can be seen about their relationship in the movie. A year later, he says Tifa is someone's beloved. Nojima, ACTUAL WRITER, says the two of them being together, was there from day one. Cloud and Tifa have a future together, he opened his heart up only to her. Your argument holds no water.
And it's YOUR assumption that they DON'T have separate bedrooms. That makes my interpretation as valid as yours.
So, there being an invisible teapot in orbit between the earth and sun is JUST AS LIKELY as there not being one? Wait til I tell Russel!
And we have a scene in the novella which most definitely occurs, and most parsimoniously occurs with the two of them sharing a room. The question parsimoniously makes the most sense to ask of someone who you have a relationship with, rather than a roommate whose room you have entered as they slept (Seriously. CREEPY.)
Just because one optional scene has a canon outcome doesn't mean that all optional scenes have a canon outcome. When I see more evidence in the actual games/movies/novellas that can apply to either side, then I think the option is what's canon.[/quote]
That's what you're refusing to to here. In fact, you're making things up simply to avoid seeing the evidence. Nothing, as Tres has said- says you can choose to make Tifa disinterested. In fact, you're even misreading the 'apathetic' quote to allow for it to mean the people in the conversation are apathetic towards each other, instead of reading apathetic as modifying the conversation itself.
IF/THEN means that the outcome diverges according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
Which still does not change that there can- and is- an official, IF/THEN irrelevant outcome.
IF I leave early, THEN Shadow dies.
IF I stay, THEN he lives.
Shadow lives.
We know the outcome. IF/THEN is sort of beside the point.
I see you behaving in the exact same way.
I know you do. But I'm not the one mining quotes, calling facts opinions and providing copypasta in response to arguments. You are.
Only in your opinion. In my opinion (and many other people) CloudxAerith is supported better by the evidence than CloudxTifa. Your opinion is not fact.
If it is better supported by the evidence, then support it with EVIDENCE. Not blind supposition, not 'could be', sans special pleading and quote mines.
I'd say I'll be waiting, but I know It won't come.
Only in your opinion. SE has not confirmed your opinion.
See, you keep calling everything I say an opinion, even when it is quite simply a reporting of the facts. You are trying to say here, that it is merely my opinion that the FTOIL page contains text saying Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings. Or maybe you're saying it's my opinion that the word 'if' or any reference to version cannot be found in their entry.
Or maybe, you're just trying to say that you cannot actually argue against this fact, and so it must be my opinion.
Shows how well you know my thoughts on the subject. Ask Quex if I think CxA is canon. She knows I don't.
See, that MIGHT be more believable if A: Your essay still wasn't trying to argue that they were together post-morten with certainty and B: slipping up even in this response.
Both pictures have a page number at the top:
See page 232 at the top? If you go to page 232, it says:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.
~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
The CloudxAerith Date scene picture also has a page number at the top. If you turn to that page, you will get an explanation about the divergences.
Therefore, the Divergence is actually listed on the FTOIL page since it gives you the page number where the Divergence is discussed. The Divergence is actually part of the information provided about the scene.
No. It's not. It's on a different page entirely, AND EVEN THAT page does not say 'If the feelings are low, the feelings confirmed are different', it says 'If... High... The conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other'
And the main body of the text tells us that Cloud and Tifa do what? Confirm their feelings for each other. You keep seeing the IF/THEN and completely focus on the IF, forgetting we are told which THEN.
But that's beside the point that you're arguing that content which is LOCATED ON A DIFFERENT PAGE is located ON THIS ONE.
Incidentally, Anastar, p232 is a story summary. Why can we trust the deviation in the summary, but not confirmation of outcomes, again?
But the page number is given at the top of the picture, so it is clearly intended as information that should be included - not ignored.
No one's ignoring it. But it's A: Not ON the page, and so not what the creators wish to emphasize here, and B: the page does not say what you wish it does.
Depends entirely on your interpretation. I think Cloud declares romance for Aerith several times during the game, and that Cloud's love and devotion for Aerith is more than clear in AC/ACC.
But it's NOT canon, right?
So please, show us where Cloud declares romance. Tell us where the creators have said it's even POSSIBLE to do so. Try not to expose your blatant double standard.
I'm using it as a last resort to get through to you.
You've been employing them from the first, Anastar. The only difference is you admitted it this time.
Heh... so you use an insult to try and distract people from what I've actually said.
Nein, Fraulein. I want people to see EXACTLY what you said. I want them to see you kept repeating it in response to several distinct points trying to outline a thought process, that you responded to genuine argumentation with canned responses. And I want them to realize why you did it.
LOL... you didn't even understand what I said or the point I was making.
Apparently you didn't either, because unless you're arguing here that 'They showed a picture of Shadow after his demise to indicate he's alive and did so for a reason,' your argument makes no sense, but this runs counter to your expressed stance about story summaries earlier in this same response.
Look very carefully:
During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud's office. There were many slips that laid scattered about unsorted. One of them caught Tifa's eye.
Client Name - Elmyra Gainsborough
Delivery Item - Bouquet
Destination - The Forgotten City
Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened, but she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.
It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
"I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room."
Tifa is still calling it "your room" after the story referred to it as Cloud's office. That means Tifa considers it "Cloud's room", which means it's not a room that she shares with him. There's a bed and further evidence that it's Cloud's room, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he sleeps there.
1. Japanese does not contain 'your'
2. That it is his room no more makes it his bedroom than my father's office or my mother's room are their bedrooms. Both are their rooms.
3. That's a cot. Not a bed. And there's no dresser, no closet, no anything in that bedroom.
My father's offices have more indications that they were bedrooms than that room.
So because your father doesn't sleep in the room that he uses as his office means that all men don't sleep in a room that they use as their office? My father's desk was in the master bedroom, so his "office" was also his bedroom. The master bedroom had a double bed, though - unlike the single bed in Cloud's room.
Holy converse error of logic, Batman! My father uses as his office a room which has a bed in it. His office has had a single bed, two single beds, and a queen bed in it. It also has had dressers, amoires, and closests. It has never been HIS bedroom. Having a bed in an office DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE that office the bedroom of the person whose office it is.
Yes - they formed a family of friends, according to Tifa. When she wonders if it's a "real family" later on, then she's obviously wondering if it's different in some way than it was when she and Marlene created it:
Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.
Funny how you say when 'she and Marlene created it' when the U10 tells us that Cloud and Tifa formed it.
First, Tifa wonders this after Denzel appeared - so any change in Cloud's behavior was apparently motivated by the fact that Cloud had taken in a child whom Aerith had brought to him.
Tifa wonders if they're a real family now because Cloud is taking less jobs, apparently to spend more time with the children. Again, it seems motivated by Denzel.
So, by "real family", Tifa seems to be evaluating the family dynamics in comparison to other families, and seems to think it's different because Cloud is spending more time with the kids.
Yes, fathers should spend time with their kids and chat with their SOs. That's what families do. They spend time with each other. What's your point? Cloud's trying to patch his family life up and be better with Tifa because Aerith told him to by sending Denzel?
Yes, Cloud is the one who grows increasingly insular, but that's not the point.
The point is that Tifa's the only one wondering whether they've become a "real family." Cloud never wonders whether they've become a "real family."
So he does consider him a real family then, since he never wonders. And since you so helpfully outlined above, that's just as valid as your idea since neither has proof (Hint: The logic I employed here is not valid and I was mocking it, but the entire idea is irrelevant anyways.)
It's shown in the original game during the hand reach scene when Cloud looks at Aerith.
You mean when he stares blankly forward as a hand reaches towards him, and he just sorted reaches back, before we jump Cut to TIFA'S hand?
Once again, Aerith the C/T shipper strikes.
It's shown in the original game when Cloud talks about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game.
So... Aeti! Cloud only talking about it being possible. Tifa wanted to do it.
It's shown in AC/ACC when Sephiroth asks Cloud what he cherishes most, and Aerith is the first thing that Cloud thinks of,
Firstly, being first in a sequence building to a climax does not indicate that you're the most important. If anything, it's the opposite. Secondly, Please, stop omitting that Sephypoo had asked to take his most precious thing away which makes no fuckdamn sense with Aerith, or that he crescendo of the sequence was Zack, or that Cloud says there's nothing he doesn't Cherish.
followed by the hand reach scene (or Cloud meeting Aerith).
You mean the part after ALL the other hand reaches that's described as her giving him assistance?
Okay, you say these things show 'Aerith and Cloud's relationship with Aerith is shown to be more important to Cloud than Tifa.' So how do these things show us anything about a relationship or its importance in relation to Tifa?
I also asked you, BTW, to give us places it had been SAID. I will not allow you to demand official declarations and then get by without providing some yourself.
It's shown in AC/ACC when Cloud leaves the Seventh Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church.
Leaving for penance and to face death.
It's shown at the end of AC/ACC when Cloud goes out riding on Fenrir beside flower fields said by Nomura to represent Aerith instead of returning to the Seventh Heaven.
Except he IS returning to 7th heaven.
It's shown at the end of AC/ACC when Cloud says he's no longer alone, which means he WAS alone before being reunited with Aerith.
Even though Aerith is officially LEAVING in that scene.
It's shown in Tifa's profile in the 10th AU when it says:
The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
So even Tifa seems to realize that Aerith's more important to Cloud.
You quote mine AGAIN. No, that's not what that quote is trying to say, since it's talking about Cloud beating himself up over his failures and having Aerith be baggage, not about any 'relationship' between then.
Oh, I scored a serious point there folks. Ryu's evading it.
As I keep telling to people who try and toss my words back at me, it can't simply be parroting. It just makes you look foolish when you toss them back without rhyme or reason. It also lets me know I got under your skin.
I also note you neglected to actually respond to "I'm sorry, when did the date of this interview change again? And even IF it was post AC's release, A: He's not saying what you think he's saying and B: we still have all the even more recent quotes. We have both the most up to date evidence and the preponderance of it." instead skipping over my glib response to another of your copypastas and responding to that instead.
Once again, all of the "preponderance of evidence" that you keep talking about is all in your opinion. It has not been validated by SE.
You don't know what preponderance means, do you? That there is a preponderance of evidence is not my opinion, and the evidence itself is what has been given to us by Square Enix.
The whole point is that it's NOT blinking in neon when it doesn't say who she's a koibito to.
All the arrows pointing to who are effectively blinking in neon, even if the man's name isn't.
And the point this sensei was making is more important than the spelling of it. She was saying that it makes no sense for the word "koibito" to be used without saying who the person is a "koibito" to.
Then the sensei is mistaken or misunderstood. The word can be used without specifying who someone is a koibito to. Now, if the teacher means that someone cannot BE a koibito without someone to be a koibito of, then that's different, and exactly what I've been saying for the past, oh, 5 years, long before your own personal flip flop.
Regardless, it WAS used without reference to a specific person, so take it up with Square-Enix and the Japanese language.
But he says the nature of the relationship is unknown. That's pretty clear when he says that he has no clue whether or not Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC/ACC.
You're trying to equivocate between two readings of the same quote and use both here. Regardless, he can have no clue and there can still be an official version because HE'S NOT THE GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT.
The context says nothing about the nature of the relationship. And once again, you're evading my point, which is saying that people belong together doesn't necessarily mean they're in a romance. You want it to mean that, but it doesn't.
Anastar, your entire ARGUMENT is based on wanting things to mean certain things they've got no business doing.
And really, in a narrative, when was the last time a grown man and woman were said to belong together in a sincere manner that wasn't considering romance at all?
And yes, the context does inform us of the nature of the relationship. Because we don't need our hands held the entire way. The way you don't seem to need for C/A, but do seem to need for C/T. Strange that.
No response to It is not my opinion that SE have been " talking about the one they find more important, including it in their story summary, in the official game script, using it as one of the four most important scenes in the game, having it be an example of romantic confessions alongside other games".
OR
"I know. And they're wrong too. I'm informed of their opinions because I keep getting told about them by someone who quite frankly finds you all absolutely hilarious."
Then? I mean, I know you don't, I just want to make it official.
Look who's refusing to look in that very shiny mirror of hers.
I think this is... the fifth time you've brought up the same point? Go back and look at my other responses to the same point before I start copying and pasting again.
Aly, you keep contradicting yourself and using words like contradiction to describe things which are quite simply not contradictions. My point here is that YOU are the one doing the contradicting, and of yourself. The things you listed do not CONTRADICT what you claim they contradict. But the things you argue DO contradict other things you argue, often within a single post.
Nope. Most scenes have yellow and white flowers in them, and Nomura said they went to Hawaii to film that sequence because the flowers are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.
BECAUSE the flowers are the same as the church? Funny, I don't recall the word BECAUSE used. I don't SEE the word because used. I DO see Nomura saying he wanted a sea lying beyond the horizon, but nothing about BECAUSE Aerith.
The point you are missing is that we do not see Cloud arriving back at the Seventh Heaven. IF SE wanted to imply that Cloud and Tifa will now have a romantic relationship following AC/ACC, they would show Cloud arriving back at the Seventh Heaven, taking Tifa into his arms, and kissing her. We never see that. Instead, we just see him riding around in the flower fields that represent Aerith.
They represent Aerith, now, huh?
So, they represent Aerith at Zack's grave?
And we don't need to SEE Cloud back at 7th Heaven. We have been told he returns living there, that there is where he is meant to live, we know he calls Tifa to shut down the bar, heads home after a day of deliveries- reminiscence- and that he and Denzel visit Zack's grave, now devoid of Sword, but added Flowers, with the sword moved into the church.
Then SE tells us that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. He said he thought he could meet her there at the end of FFVII - and he did.
And it wasn't his promised land prior to his guilt vanishing and was his promised land before she showed up. And then she left for the lifestream where SHE belongs.
I know plenty of people giving Aerith her due. You are merely an exception to that.
Oh, thank you for proving my point, Aly, you have NO IDEA just how badly you've walked into the trap here by confirming 'Aerith's due' is in your eyes, getting with Cloud.
Unless, you know, you want to admit not reading my posts for comprehension.
And you say that Cloud ignores Aerith as though it is fact. Once again, that's only your opinion and your interpretation.
Absolutely nothing indicates that Aerith is acknowledged and she's even stated to be a spectre lacking in substance. You wish to claim Cloud noticed her or did anything with her, get to proving it.
[qutoe]Fact is, Aerith is
always with Cloud. That was explained in
Distance, when Nomura said that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.[/quote]
And was ACTUALLY contradicted as a literal statement in Case of Lifestream white AND the AC story summary saying she was going back to the lifestream around the planet where SHE BELONGED. The bit you keep trying to ingore, remember?
What that means is that Cloud and Aerith are inseparable.
Then so to are Aerith and Tifa, Barret, Yuffie, Cid, Vincent, and Cait Sith/Reeve, whose hearts she also lives on in, as per her U10 profile.
They are like soul mates, a fact which is also demonstrated in FFVII when Cloud is able to sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City.
And Sephiroth's too!
And how Marlene can sense Aerith in FF7 and AC! And Tifa can sense her too!
Holy shit, EVERYONE'S A SOULE MATE!
Also, they're 'soul mates' but you're NOT arguing they're canon? Interesting distinction you've made there, Aly.
