The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Ah, I see. But, in CoLW, she does know the real Cloud, doesn't she? :T It just doesn't make sense for Aerith to be calling Cloud/Zack wannabe her beloved. idgi.

In CoLW, it depends on if we're taking Maiden or not, I think, and whether she ever gets to 'know the real Cloud' or is at the stage of 'knows he's not himself'

Yeah, but I'm not arguing that and I'm not fightin' anyone else's battle for them, either.

Not saying you were. I was just saying even more concrete shit isn't 'beyond debate.'
It's all very silly.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Ah, I see. But, in CoLW, she does know the real Cloud, doesn't she? :T It just doesn't make sense for Aerith to be calling Cloud/Zack wannabe her beloved. idgi.

Can't say that she does, and I don't mean that she can't claim to know because she hasn't had two real conversations with him yet (true but not my point), but Case of the Lifestream does not paint the picture of Aerith spending her time watching over her friends like the Maiden that blablabla does, it paints the picture of someone busy fighting Sephiroth, until Sephiroth shortly before AC puts the idea of materialising on the surface in her head. And she does say "the Cloud she knew was weak as all getout." in past tense, like she hadn't checked in for a while.

And again, Cloud she was attracted too, she went on a date with him and ended up lamenting that she wished to meet the real him, and then she dies before she could (until AC). I'm sure she would wanted to meet, know and love him, she didn't get that chance (whether Cloud would have chosen Tifa over her or not), that's how I saw the drama in FFVII.
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
Aerith being in love with Cloud and loving Cloud for himself really doesn't have any impact on Cloti. :\ It's just confirming what the player has already speculated.

I think it makes more sense for Aerith to love the real Cloud than to call the brainwashed!Cloud her koibito. It just...sounds off. But I suppose that's just my opinion.

Still, FHS said it perfectly:

Fairheartstrife said:

Aerith loves Cloud. The hows and whys are up to debate, but she loves him. No matter if you believe she loved Cloud for Cloud or his Zack-ness or even a combination, the fact remains, she loved him. The LTD has never been about who the girls love--it's about who Cloud loves. :awesome:



 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Keep in mind that I am entirely with you on the issue of Aerith loving Cloud when I say this, ok? I don't define the why of it, nor the extent, but its openly stated so yeah I'm with you here. I only bring it up at all to make a point now and then. But...

honestly i feel like it's almost insulting to everyone's intelligence to have to point out obvious stuff like this, especially considering how long the debate's actually been going on /shrug

Do you have ANY idea how often I wanna say stuff like ^this concerning people denying Cloti?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So, just to see where we all stand, is everybody except Vendel on board that the Dorigama interview with Nomura mentioned in that FLAREGamer article took place after AC was released? And that we're more concerned with whether he changed his mind about Cloud and Tifa later/stopped being a fandom troll?

Speaking of fans, by the way, the most enlightening thing to come out of learning more about that interview for me has been not when the interview took place, but who the unidentified fan who interviewed Nomura was. It was Shoko Nakagawa. I don't know why the FLAREGamer article didn't identify her by name.

If you don't know who she is, do yourself a favor and Google her name. Especially the images of her.

Sesc, thanks for clearing up all that for us, by the way.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I'm in agreement, for whatever my feelings on the matter are worth.

Also, took your advice and pulled up Google for a search Tres. I thank you for the suggestion, but my poor drooled upon keyboard may not agree :monster:
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yes. But that's a movie he's the director of, and that Nojima wrote. There's no way they couldn't have known what the other was thinking there, especially since it started as a short about Tifa sending a message to Cloud. So, not knowing if they were a couple when the writer definitely had it in mind is unlikely. Neither of them having hashed out the details makes a lot more sense in that regards.
Yes but Nomura says he doesn't care about that stuff, so even if they discussed that, Nomura probably said he didn't care about it and he didn't pay much attention to it. But when asked about it, yeah he had to acknowledge there was an answer (him saying it profoundly grasps the truth)
...

am I the only one that makes sense to? :(



... ill go away now... to take a shower... a very cold shower after looking at the images Tres told me to look at :shifty:
 

Anastar

undercover Clerith evangelist
Tres

Chantara wrote: IMO, she should know Cloud's feelings if the HA version had happened and things had been as lovey-dovey as you imagine between them.
You're the only one saying that the high affection scene = lovey doviness. The rest of us readily acknowledge that the couple has issues. Hell, the writer of the game and movie acknowledges it.
Well, if you recognize that Cloud and Tifa continue to have issues like Nojima stated, you must realize that "mutual feelings" can refer to feelings other than love?

And you're now admitting to applying a double standard.
LOL... okay. I love how you guys toss that phrase around like it's candy.

You say that in the case of the low affection version, Tifa could have questions about Cloud's feelings for her two years later because feelings can change. Meanwhile, you say that in the case of the high affection version, Tifa shouldn't have any doubts about Cloud's feelings for her two years later.

You refuse to apply the same standard to anything when it comes to this scene.
Well, you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that she can't have doubts - but in order to have doubts, then she was told that Cloud loves her under the HW.

I was saying that it sounds to me like she's never been told in the first place, and doesn't know because she's never been told - in which case, the HA version never happened.

And since we don't know for sure which way is true, either interpretation is possible.

Anastar wrote: The fact is, there has been absolutely no confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa - plain and simple. You build a case on non-evidence, and then you tell me that I'm not connecting the dots?
What lack of confirmation? Pg. 24 of the Crisis Core Ultimania doesn't say that Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was younger?
How does that confirm he's in love with her NOW? I'm no longer in love with a giuy I was in love with in college. Same with a guy I had a crush on in sixth grade. So how does a distant crush on someone he barely knew mean that he's still in love now?

The CC Ultimania said that Cloud was dimly in love, which means a crush. Tifa said they didn't know one another that well during the Lifestream event, so they barely knew one another. Therefore, it was a distant crush.

Cloud's subconscious doesn't reveal this fact to Tifa in the Lifestream?
Once again, he was talking about his feelings for her as a kid. What he felt for her as a kid doesn't mean he feels the same way seven years later. That's no confirmation.

His subconscious doesn't tell Tifa that she should tell Cloud about liking him later, because it will make him happy?
You're reading into it. What he says in the Lifestream is that it will make the current Cloud happy if Tifa tells the current Cloud that she looked for him in the newspapers after he left to join SOLDIER. For all we know, that could means that he'll be happy to learn that his plan worked - he got her to notice him. It doesn't confirm that she's currently in love with Cloud or vice versa.

So, no, darling, I'm not the one making a case on non-evidence.
Keep calling me darling, and you'll start rumors about us. ^_^

Cloud greets Yuffie warmly because of the night spent with Tifa. The two lines are in the paragraph together -- a paragraph sectioned off from the surrounding text on the rest of the page, mind you -- for a reason.

That reason is not to ask you to search high and low for a meaning to be deciphered based on the belief that basic writing tools were not employed.

Without going back to sixth grade grammar classes (don't worry; I won't ask you to map out what's a noun, adjective, verb, gerund, etc.), that's how you construct a paragraph: you put lines together in a paragraph that, together, convey a particular idea or set of ideas.
Trouble is, those two lines are in separate paragraphs - at least, according to the scan I was given. I was taught that separate ideas went in separate paragraphs.

uotrasnlateyuffie.jpg

Okay... we see that Cloud gives her a nice greeting the next morning. Then underneath that, it says (in a separate paragraph) that Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.

As I read it, that means that Cloud and Tifa spending the night together COULD be the reason that Cloud's acting nice to Yuffie, but it's nothing definite. Like I said before, it could just as easily be that he's happy because the rest of Avalanche has returned for the fight in the Northern Crater.

Come to think of it, Cloud and Tifa are both nervous when they come back on board the HW the next morning because they think they're alone:

(They walk together toward the Highwind. It begins to lower to the ground as the scene fades. It fades back in to show the walkway to the bridge. Tifa is following Cloud there.)
Tifa "The airship is too big for just the two of us."
"Yeah, it's a little lonely without everyone."
(Cloud turns around to face her.)
Cloud "Don't worry. It'll be okay."
(He does his squat-thrusts.)
Cloud "I'll make a big enough ruckus for everyone."
(He stops and straightens his hair.)
Cloud "Besides, I'm the pilot."
"No more flying around casually like before."
"We won't have time to feel lonely."
(She nods. A long pause. Suddenly, the entire Highwind shakes as the engines fire up.)
Tifa "Huh!?"
(She looks around.)
Cloud "It's moving......"
(They dash to the bridge. They find Cait Sith dozing in one corner. They run past him and find Barret and Cid working with the pilot's controls.) Cloud "Barret! Cid!"


Then they welcome back Barret, Cid, RedXIII, Cait Sith, and Vincent before they even realize that Yuffie came back. I could quote the rest of the dialogue, but it's a bit long. So Cloud was reassuring Tifa as they came back on board, then he's aware that the others come back and greets each one of them.

Then Yuffie shows up, and he welcomes her right before he thanks everyone.

Are you so sure that he's acting happy because of the night he spent with Tifa? Seems to me like he's already forgotten about the night before - the others returning and their upcoming fight is the main thing on his mind.

Anastar wrote: I think it would be clearer if it said something like, "Yuffie didn't know that Cloud was being nice to her because he and Tifa had spent the night together."
God's sake, it couldn't be any clearer. The comment is sectioned off from everything else. Within that section, you have Yuffie's quote, you have the line identifying when she said it, and then you have the explanation that she was unaware of Cloud and Tifa spending the night together.
See? You agree - it would be clearer that way. :P

Now, are you ready to put away your secret decoder ring and have an honest discussion?
You put yours away first.

Where in the text of the low affection version do you see such a thing discussed?
Where in the text of the high affection version do you see Cloud say, "I love you"?
Have you seriously retreated back into questioning whether the high affection version of the scene is romantic? Wow.

And stop avoiding the question: where in the text of the low affection version do you see a discussion about what you claim is there?
In the same place I see a discussion of what supposedly takes place in the HA version. It's not said in the HA version, so why does it have to be said in the LA version?

If you're wondering where I got the idea that they only talk about friendship in the LA version, I get that idea from several things: 1) SE calls it the Low Affection Version, which means no romance. 2) Cloud and Tifa are obviously still friends if you get the LA version, so it can't mean the affection level is so low that they now despise one another. 3) The Low Affection version is described by SE as being "apathetic" and short. You can find that meaning in the meaning of "apathetic" if you promise to look at the second meaning as well as the first:

ap a thet ic ~adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic

Now, look at the synonyms:

1. unfeeling, impassive, cool.
2. uninterested, unconcerned.


Now, once again - we know that Cloud and Tifa remain friends, even if you get the LA version, right? Therefore, the meanings of indifferent, unconcerned, uninterested, unresponsive, and unfeeling have to pertain to their romantic feelings for one another.

Furthermore, if the High Affection version is romantic, then the Low Affection version would obviously be unromantic. You can even use your decoder ring to figure it out, if you want.

Anastar wrote: But SE has never said it's the actual outcome. All they did was use one version instead of the other in some places, say that both versions happen in other places, and be non-specific about which version happened in other places.
No, they have never said that both versions happen. They have said that both versions are available to the player. That is not the same as -- within the body of a story summary -- saying two mutually exclusive events have taken place.
Once again, I remind you of the quote given to us by Sesc on this page:

http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

It's Nomura saying that he has no clue on whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship going between FFVII and AC. That same quote is cited here:

http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB

But we never had a source for it until Sesc found it. At any rate, Nomura said that after the release of AC. So if he didn't know whether they had a romantic relationship, that means the HA version of the HW scene can't be canon.

Ariadne wrote: So we're back to you claiming that scenes subject to player influence don't have canon outcomes?
I never stopped saying it.
Um, yes, you did:
Anastar wrote: Yes, some scenes have a canon outcome, but not all scenes.
Please stop playing word games, okay?

I never said that scenes with optional outcomes can't have a canon outcome.
Anastar wrote: Yes, that is true for SOME optional scenes. However, I do not think that is true for ALL optional scenes.
I still believe the same thing. An optional scene CAN have a canon outcome, but it doesn't HAVE to have a canon outcome.

Seems that Nomura agrees with me here: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

He's basically saying that SE left it up to player interpretation.

You're not asking for the same standards at all. You're willing to accept that FFV's happy ending happened because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFV says it did. You're willing to accept that Terra had her revelation about love because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFVI says it did.
And now I'm not ready to accept that because people have told me different versions of what evidence is actually available.

And once again, Nomura pretty much says there is no canon outcome to the HW scene on this page: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

The same source is quoted here: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB

But, no, multiple story summaries, plus other materials besides saying that the high affection Highwind scene took place and is one of FFVII's most important scenes means jackshit all. Goddamn, I wish I could approach at least one notion in all the world with such single-minded devotion.
Yep, it means jackshit when we have the director of Advent Children saying that he doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC, and when we have pages in the U20 and in the FFVII UO saying there are two versions of the Highwind scene that depend on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

Anastar wrote: I think SE's making it ambiguous what feelings are being discussed because they want it left up to the player.
How are you able to say this sort of thing and believe it yourself while simultaneously claiming that SE wants us to think Cloud stopped to see Aerith in a flower field in a retconned portion of AC/C after a) Zack and Aerith already said their goodbyes to Cloud, and b) the 10th AU's story summary for the movie already said that Aerith and Zack went back to the Lifestream?

Something like that is supposedly so clear, but the outcome of the Highwind scene isn't? Peeps, wipe your shoes, and somebody please light a match.
Tell ye what. I'll stop with the accusations when you stop with the accusations - okay? Next time anyone says anything like this, I'm just ignoring it. I can't be bothered wasting my time with this pettiness.

Anastar wrote: And that means he loves her now? It can't mean that he's just glad to find out that his tactics worked? He wanted her to pay attention to him - she did. How do you know he wasn't just happy to hear that?
Just for shits and giggles, can you even provide so much as an official quote from anywhere saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith in a past tense setting? That's possibly the funniest thing about all this.
Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~ CoLW, by Nojima

Anastar wrote: But why do they have to confirm it under the HW if they already told one another about it in the Lifestream? It shouldn't be news under the HW if they already told one another.
Cloud's subconscious becoming aware of Tifa's feelings and informing her of his is not the same thing as the repaired, recovered Cloud and Tifa sorting out where they stand on their feelings for each other.

In any event, your comeback here is pointless regardless of what feelings you think Cloud and Tifa have for each other, because Tifa's profile from the 10th AU says that Cloud and Tifa became aware of the feelings each other had while in the Lifestream -- yet they still need to confirm those feelings to be mutual the night before they head into the Northern Crater to face down Seph.
You mean this statement?

She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.

Doesn't specify what feelings, does it? Crap, it doesn't even specify whether the thoughts/feelings are about each other, or about the Promise, or about Tifa's fall from the bridge, or about the Nibelheim incident, or what.

If you ask me, it doesn't specify because it's possible for Cloud and Tifa to confirm feelings of High Affection (romance) or Low Affection (no romance), and SE wanted to leave it open for interpretation.

Do they not need to talk about their feelings if they included romantic interest (a rather complicated topic) in one another, yet friendship/support required it?
I'm just saying that their feelings (whether romantic or unromantic) weren't confirmed in the Lifestream, and you seem to agree.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Trouble is, those two lines are in separate paragraphs - at least, according to the scan I was given. I was taught that separate ideas went in separate paragraphs.

Okay let me settle this. It's hard to tell from the scan I gave you because I sectioned off that quote.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5073/yuffiej.jpg

There's the full page. As you can see, it's basically a timeline of the events involving Yuffie. That particular point has extra information added on, so it's all related.

Just for shits and giggles, can you even provide so much as an official quote from anywhere saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith in a past tense setting? That's possibly the funniest thing about all this.

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~ CoLW, by Nojima

I think you misunderstood, he wanted a quote saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith, not that Aerith loved Cloud. We know Aerith loved Cloud. Past, present/optional or not, there's at least 6 quotes talking about Cloud loving Tifa romantically, but I've yet to see one that says Cloud loves, loved or even COULD love Aerith romantically. If it's really up to interpretation, they should have an equal number of quotes on each side IMO.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Okay so I guess a post isn't here anymore so Imma double post :awesome:

Also I know I was the one who brought it up, but does anyone remember where that 'Profoundly grasp the truth" quote is from? I'm looking through some old AC scans but it's going to be really hard to find it...

EDIT
I found it... Japanese text is really tiny though... anyone wanna take a look at it?
I'm going to try to take a closer look in a bit

EDIT II:

wordsj.jpg


ティファとクラウドの関係は? 野村氏:ふたりの関係については本編で深く把握することができると思います。言葉で言ってしまうのは簡単ですが

"What is the relation of Cloud and Tifa."
Nomura: I believe that this volume [the movie] is able to deeply grasp the truth concerning the relationship between the two. It's easy to completely explain using words but..."



so... if Nomura had no idea about their relationship in one interview and he's saying this in another, what's all this? :monster:


So basically this proves what I was saying. Nomura has no clue what was going on with Cloud and Tifa prior to AC, but AC makes it clear. You may all now worship me for finding this :awesome:

...






nothing eh?
 
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Fangu

Great Old One
Hi guys,

I think I over the past few weeks have read this entire thread... no wait, that thread had posts for 2008, so it must have been the older thread, but still, I've read like over 100 pages (I know, kinda crazy, huh?) and I just gotta say... Square Enix, those devils, they really want to keep us hanging ;)

(I put some spoiler tags in here btw - not sure if I needed to)

Because IMO, a lot of stuff is still up for interpretation - and it's meant to be! Because you don't want to disappoint any of your fans. Aerith was the default choice for the date in FF7
(no wonder since she was about to... yeah, and we're meant to be shocked and feel the loss when she's gone)
and if you're not good and reading "between the adult lines", you might get the impression by the end of the game that Cloud just wants to go to The Promised Land so he can be with Aerith.

But for us who have actually loved (and lost, and then loved again), we know that being in a relationship is not all sugar and rainbows (to quote Sazh) and that it has its ups and downs. So that's why, proved by a quote about ACC I can't remember correctly, there is complications in Cloud and Tifa's relationship before and in ACC because IT IS a relationship. (The "relationship and family quote"). Watching the movie for the first time a few weeks back I could sooo relate to Tifa. Sometimes your man just drifts off, and you can't really do anything (except for yelling at him from time to time :P) but to wait for him to bounce back.

But of course, if you're a younger fan with a much more naive look on the romantic relationship, where you think sex seals the relationship (which it doesn't, it just raises more questions that it answers, that's why you have to keep doing it over and over in the beginning ;)) you might get the impression that since the La Grande Kiss (or even the grand going to bed together, or even saying "I love you") hasn't been done, there's no "proof". And by all means, I thought the Cloud - Aerith coupling was cute at first, and playing the game I got the impression it was up to you what you wanted - heck, even Tifa's helping Cloud out could still be interpreted as "just friendly" - but after seeing (haven't played it yet, unfortunately) the cut scenes of Crisis Core, I'm pretty sure they want to leave all the hints of "Aerith found love, then had to sit and watch it fade away over several years" (I mean her mother was very anxious to meet Cloud, as in "oh no, here we go again...") "but finally managed to move on, but still being reminded of Zack when Cloud arrived - and then she wanted to get to know Cloud better, but it was just too late"... and I do believe if Zack hadn't went away, there would be wedding bells. I mean look at all the hints - the stuff with the "23 wishes", her comforting him, the promise of the pink dress and all of that, it just screams "we're in loooove" so badly it made me giggle and think of my boyfriend and I when we first met.

After seeing ACC, I definitely got the impression they're trying to tell us that "Zack and Aerith are in heaven (or similar) where they are with each other in spirit". They can have conversations ("this one's a little too big to adopt") which is a great comfort to me, anyway :P

My point is... taking the overlook over things, instead of going into quotes and details about whose bedroom is that, did they do it under the Highwind or not - Cloud and Tifa's story is still a very powerful one, because it speaks of two people who grew up next to each other but never really knew each other because they were different. She was the cool kid, he was sort of the cast out, and having those "roles" really defines you when you're a kid. But when you grow into adulthood, you start realizing the world is a little bit different than you thought it to be. What defines you as a kid might not define you that much any more - you grow a perspective. She grows curious of him, and she stays curious - and she always remembers him even though he's gone. When he comes back, and she notices something is wrong, she keeps him close to find out what is wrong so she can cure him, because she's still curious about him and she cares for him.

And Cloud - it starts out as wanting to impress her (or impress any hot girl, as guys usually wants to). When he comes to his senses again after she "finds him" in the Lifestream, he's in some sort of shock, I guess. I mean he lost so many years being in the Shinra Mansion, he's still, what, 17 in his head? His experiences might make him older, but he's still sort of a teenager, so his care for Tifa might not be as mature as hers for him, but he senses a care in her that he clings to. So even if you think nothing happened under the Highwind, there is still the realization that he wants to say something to her, as he realizes he really likes having her around and having her support (typically stage 1 for a guy in love who haven't yet realized he is, btw), but he just can't find the words (because they are new to him - and what are they, really?) And if you DID think something happened, it is not so strange that a 17 year old kid takes up a very nice looking girl on an obvious offer, now is it... and, as have been mentioned earlier in this thread (very early! or was that in the old thread?), sex isn't some grand solution that binds people together. It brings you closer in a way, yes - but they could easily have left it off after that. So IMO, sex or not, it doesn't define anything. The point is that their story is so totally adorable - it is basically the geek getting the hot chick <3

Yes, Cloud grew strong because of his Mako poisoning and got stronger as he thought he was stronger than he actually was during the first half of FF7, but he still is, at heart, that boy who really felt he had something to prove so people would notice him. I mean, Tifa obviously has a lot of "fans", I can imagine them flirting with her in the new 7th Heaven bar - and Cloud might often need confirmation of why she still chose him when she could basically pick anyone. But that's just the beauty of the pairing, she loves him for who he is, and she always patiently waits for him. I find that so much more interesting than what any other pairing is or might have been. Obviously Cloud cared greatly for Aerith, maybe even loved her, but I don't think that is the type of love that will grow into anything physical. But, Aerith is _very_ lovable. Her personality is so courageous, bubbly and straight forward - much like Zack. Just wanted to make that clear - I do adore Aerith. But her pairing with Cloud, if it was to be a physical/ romantical one, would just not be as interesting. Great for a flirt, a fling, or even as a shorter relationship, but I don't think they would understand each other without words as well as I think the other pairings (ZxA, CxT) do. Tifa knows Cloud, she knows what goes on in his head. Aerith might have known, but she might not be able to be as patient with him, and in the end their two different personalities might not have worked out.

Besides, she's dead. And if she really wanted him to be with her in the Lifestream, instead of him having a physical life on earth (or what's its name is), she would have kept him there at the end of ACC. She (and Zack) pushes him back to life, saying there is no room for him - he has to go back to the living. She doesn't want Cloud, she wants what's best for Cloud - that is a difference. Is that love for Cloud? Yes, it might be. But we can love people and still accept they are happy with someone else. And - I do believe Aerith is with Zack in spirit - I have to, or I will be very very sad :( :P

Wow, that was some rant for a 1st post... anyways, they are just my thoughts built up after almost being done with the FF7 game, and having watched ACC a couple of times. The Japanese are so great at creating stories through dialogue, hints and small gestures - I haven't watched anime for a long time, so it was great seeing ACC. You don't have to spell things out for it to still be there. Actually I am surprised they put a kiss in FFX, but that's a whole different topic :P
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
That was a good post. :)

And don't worry, no need for spoiler tags. We all know how the story went. We're supposed to, if we want to debate here.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
I agree, that was a good post. Also, welcome to the LTD thread. Here is your helmet and shoulder pads. Have fun!
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
*applaudes* Lovely first post, and I also love your avatar image. :awesome:

And - I do believe Aerith is with Zack in spirit - I have to, or I will be very very sad

I was starting to feel alone in this, lol. Zack and Aerith really gave of a strong impact imo, and I always believed they were the intended couple since SE brought out the past and released new quotes. I do believe at some point Aerith wanted to move on, wanting to know Cloud and did love him, but I believe that Zack is the one she's always going back to, the one that's really in her heart. I do see them as canon and CT as canon. It just doesn't seem as obvious with Cloud and Aerith. I hate when people say that Z/A is past, but then claim that C/A isn't. IT IS the past. Cloud does see her presently, but Zack also sees Aerith (and she sees him as well) so it's going back on your word and I see it happen all the time.

Also...
IF Cloud and Aerith are together that leaves... Tifa and Zack alone? I really don't think that's what they intended. If Z/A wasn't so important, they wouldn't have gone out of their way to create a whole story for it, nor would they have mentioned how the pair of them are destiny. Destiny can't just be 'in the past'.

But that's just me. :monster:
 

Fangu

Great Old One
I agree, that was a good post. Also, welcome to the LTD thread. Here is your helmet and shoulder pads. Have fun!
:lol: Yeah, I got the impression one might need such in this thread... ;) Thanks!

And don't worry, no need for spoiler tags. We all know how the story went. We're supposed to, if we want to debate here.
That's what I thought too, but I wasn't 100% sure, so I wanted to be on the safe side. Thanks!

*applaudes* Lovely first post, and I also love your avatar image. :awesome:
Yup, isn't he totally handsome? I mean, for being 17 years old or how old he's supposed to be... Prince Arislan from Arslan Senki, this is. Old school OVA ftw \o/
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
:lol: Yeah, I got the impression one might need such in this thread... ;) Thanks!

I find a rotary cannon more useful.
Well, more fun, technically, but same difference.

That's what I thought too, but I wasn't 100% sure, so I wanted to be on the safe side. Thanks!

All contents of FF7 and most other FFs are considered fair game in this thread, with other series spoilers at your discretion.

Also, Welcome. Keep posting elsewhere.

Okay so I guess a post isn't here anymore so Imma double post :awesome:

Also I know I was the one who brought it up, but does anyone remember where that 'Profoundly grasp the truth" quote is from? I'm looking through some old AC scans but it's going to be really hard to find it...

EDIT
I found it... Japanese text is really tiny though... anyone wanna take a look at it?
I'm going to try to take a closer look in a bit

EDIT II:

wordsj.jpg


&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12398;&#38306;&#20418;&#12399;&#65311; &#37326;&#26449;&#27663;&#65306;&#12405;&#12383;&#12426;&#12398;&#38306;&#20418;&#12395;&#12388;&#12356;&#12390;&#12399;&#26412;&#32232;&#12391;&#28145;&#12367;&#25226;&#25569;&#12377;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12364;&#12391;&#12365;&#12427;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#35328;&#33865;&#12391;&#35328;&#12387;&#12390;&#12375;&#12414;&#12358;&#12398;&#12399;&#31777;&#21336;&#12391;&#12377;&#12364;

"What is the relation of Cloud and Tifa."
Nomura: I believe that this volume [the movie] is able to deeply grasp the truth concerning the relationship between the two. It's easy to completely explain using words but..."

so... if Nomura had no idea about their relationship in one interview and he's saying this in another, what's all this? :monster:

So basically this proves what I was saying. Nomura has no clue what was going on with Cloud and Tifa prior to AC, but AC makes it clear. You may all now worship me for finding this :awesome:

...

nothing eh?

In short, you're arguing his stance would be something like "I don't know what was going on before AC, but in AC, you can definitely see there's something going on."
That's kind of 'I don't bother myself with the details' like I've been saying was his mindset there.
Also, since we're on the subject of specific timings, where is THAT quote sourced from? Does it predate or post-date the other interview?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh yeah I should have said its from May 2004.

http://media.adventchildren.net/scans/fa_ps2_2.jpg

Even if you argue "But he doesn't say what the relationship is, it could be friendship." it still shows that he believes AC answers the questions. Or he's full of snot, one of the two :awesome:

I have to wonder what other gems we can find in these old scans :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Oh yeah I should have said its from May 2004.

http://media.adventchildren.net/scans/fa_ps2_2.jpg

Even if you argue "But he doesn't say what the relationship is, it could be friendship." it still shows that he believes AC answers the questions. I have to wonder what other gems we can find in these old scans :monster:

So, in OTHER WORDS, he knows as of '04 that AC answers the question. In '06 he knows Tifa is someone's lover. In '05 he's trolling us or just playing coy to play coy as is his wont. Interview irrelevant, moving on.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I think he was just being Nomura. He knows the answer is in AC, so in the interview he sorta tricks us to say "before AC idk" but like I said, he just says BEFORE AC, he doesn't mention before or during. :monster:

So he's sorta teasing us I think....


he's good ^_^
 

Kobato

Pro Adventurer
I found this on Tumblr.

tumblr_lt20jucm6O1qeaxzzo1_500.gif


tumblr_lt20jucm6O1qeaxzzo2_500.gif



If the Ultimania's are not enough, then this should be it. Both of the love scenes are by a airship, and Rinoa says something identical to Tifa's quote to Cloud underneath the HA. I think that this shows, that SE does see the HA scene between Cloud and Tifa really important and special. Rinoa and Squall may be completely different people and have different situations from Cloud and Tifa, but giving FF8 a familiar moment to Cloud and Tifa's night underneath the Highwind, shows that HA is special to SE, and it's just not a sudden or random moment. Also, both Tifa and Rinoa get closer to their loved ones, after the say the same quote. I don't think that just happens to be that way. I do think that this helps show that the high affection is canon.

I could be wrong though.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I can't say this^ sounds like actual evidence exactly, but it is a nice little connection that I can fully believe was put into FFVIII on purpose as a call back to one of the most important scenes of FFVII.
 
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