Quex
Since I noticed your posts above -
1. It sounds like people are asking Quex to send me an email. I remember somebody suggesting that I send an email conceding, which I have already refused to do because I don't think I'm even close to losing. If that's what the email's about, forget it. I'll just print it out and burn it.
2. I thought there were plenty of quotes substantiating Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith in that essay I gave you. But here's some more:
1. Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~CoLWhite
2. It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion
3. Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007
4. Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Nomura, interview with Official U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, issue 61, page 139-140
5. She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film. ~Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's voice actor), pg. 58, Reunion Files
6. In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87
7.On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
8. Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her leads him on a new path. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
9. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which [Tifa] is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
10. FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
11. The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."
As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~pg. 120, FFVII Ultimania Omega
12. The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.
The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.
Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~pg. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega
13. Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. ~DoC game manual, English version
14. It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder…
~pg. 142, Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion
15. When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega
16. Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled
17.
Also please note that none of these quotes have an "IF - THEN" qualifier.
=============
Okay, I got this PM yesterday, so I decided to answer it tonight. I'll answer yours tomorrow, Tres.
Gym Leader Devil
Gym Leader Devil said:
Chantara said:
She was in the Lifestream during AC/ACC, too. The planet and the Lifestream aren't two different things. The planet, all living things on the planet, and souls are made up of Lifestream. That was explained in the game by Bugenhagen:
I am fairly certain Bugenhagen did in fact explain this in the game. I am also fairly certain that you are badly mangling what he said.
Or I'm not, but you just think I am.
GLD said:
The Lifestream is the flow of consciousness and spiritual energy that moves around the Planet beneath the crust. Energy from the Lifestream is constantly moving back and forth between the stream itself and the surface as living things are born and die, but the stream is that constantly flowing river Cloud falls into in Mideel. If the Lifestream was EVERYWHERE, then why would we need expensive Mako reactors with deep as fuck pits under them to pump it out?
Not quite. The Lifestream is the flow of consciousness and spiritual energy that moves around the Planet, but it is also
part of the Planet. That was said by Bugenhagen in the quote I gave you:
"Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans."
(Bugenhagen lifts his arm.)
"Not just living things. But Spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets."
It does not simply move beneath the crust. It makes up the trees, birds, and humans, as well as the Planet. Same concept as energy in our own world. Energy makes up all physical matter, does it not? Energy can manifest in many forms, can it not? Energy can transfer from one form to another, can it not? Same concept as the Lifestream.
They need expensive Mako reactors to suck the Lifestream out of the Planet because that's where it exists in pure form. On the surface of the planet, it manifests in different forms as trees, birds, and humans - like Bugenhagen said.
GLD said:
So no, she was manifesting on the surface in AC/C. And then she returned to the Lifestream where she belongs afterwards.
In the first place, it's not "where she belongs". That's simply where you want her to belong coz you don't want her with Cloud.
As Bugenhagen said,
"Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world."
We see exceptions throughout the game. For one, Aerith could heard Ifalna talking to her throughout her childhood:
Tifa "Just what does the Planet say?"
Aerith "It's full of people and noisy. That's why I can't make out what they're saying."
(A beat.)
Cloud "You hear it now?"
Aerith "I, I only heard it at the Church in the Slums. Mother said that Midgar was no longer safe. That is.... my real mother."
(She sits back on the cot.)
Aerith "Someday I'll get out of Midgar... Speak with the Planet and find my Promised Land." "...That's what mom said." "I thought I would stop hearing her voice as I grew up, but...."
Why does Aerith keep hearing Ifalna's voice after Ifalna dies if Ifalna is "back in the Lifestream where she belongs" and isn't able to communicate with Aerith any more?
Two, the spirits at the Temple of Ancients:
(Cloud arrives at the Temple of the Ancients. Aerith stands on the rope bridge before it, then falls to the ground.)
Aerith "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..."
"I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..."
"You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will."
"For the future? For us?"
See the highlighted words? Aerith is speaking with the spirits who are at the Temple of Ancients. She says that the Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients could become one with the Planet, but they are stopping it with the strength of their will.
Aerith is also Cetra. She has that same capability. She can stop her return to the Planet as long as she likes. We know she has the strength of will to do it, since she could summon Holy.
The Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients are obviously in the Lifestream since they are spirits, yet their consciousness also exists on the Planet and is able to manifest on the Planet. How long ago was the Temple of Ancients built? Those Cetra spirits have been there that long.
If they can do it, Aerith is able to do it. Like Bugenhagen said, there are exceptions.
GLD said:
Honestly, why are you even saying such things that go completely against the very quote you're trying to argue? If she was in the LS the ENTIRE TIME, then how could she possibly RETURN TO IT?
I just explained.
GLD said:
See, even with a lengthy quote from the game, you still don't seem to get it. Spirit energy and the Lifestream are not exactly the same thing. One is largely made up of the other, but that does not make them synonymous.
And kinetic energy and potential energy are not exactly the same thing, either - yet one can transform into the other.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
So all life on the planet is made up of Lifestream, or Spirit Energy. Aerith is still made up of lifestream or Spirit Energy. So is Cloud. Just because Aerith's in the Lifestream doesn't mean that she's separate from Cloud, especially since Hojo injected Cloud with an excess amount of Mako energy - otherwise known as Spirit Energy or Lifestream.
See above. Yes, all life is made up of Spirit Energy. No, the Lifestream is not JUST said energy, it refers to a specific flow of said energy and the memories and consciousness of those who have lived and returned to said stream. Do get your shit straight before you launch a spiel about it when you can.
Do stop criticizing before launching spiels at me and dismissing what I say before you even consider what I'm saying.
GLD said:
Also, I really don't think Hojo infusing Cloud with Mako really makes him "more made of Lifestream" even if that made any sense to begin with.
Did or did Hojo not inject his subjects with Mako energy along with Jenova cells? Was or was Cloud not immersed in a tube of Mako energy by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident? Did or did not the doctor in Mideel say that Cloud had Mako poisoning as a result of being exposed to a high level of Mako energy for a protracted period of time?
As a result, Cloud obviously has a higher level of Mako energy, aka Lifestream, inside of him than humans who have not been subjected to this kind of experimentation.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
Then Nomura told us in Distance that Aerith's consciousness lives inside of Cloud. So Aerith's consciousness is actually living inside of Cloud - in the Mako energy inside of him. That means that Aerith is available to Cloud at any time.
Are you admitting that you literally believe Aerith actually does the spiritual parasite thing?!
No, I guess you just like to put it that way so that Aerith gets characterized as some sort of leech.
GLD said:
Or, if that's too insulting for you, the spiritual hermit crab thing?! Really?! I mean... that's tinfoil hat crazy, imo.
Then how come Nomura
said that Aerith's consciousness is still with Cloud?
Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview
Try to turn her into some kind of parasite all you want, but Nomura says that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. That means Aerith's consciousness is with him and part of his spiritual energy.
GLD said:
Also, this is a good example of a contradiction. If Aerith literally lived inside Cloud's spirit energy, (albeit split between Tifa, Marlene, Barret... you should know this by now) then how can she return to the LS where she belongs? Because, as explained above, Cloud's spirit energy is not synonymous with the Lifestream.
It contradicts nothing, including my explanation of how Spirit Energy and Lifestream are basically the same thing. See above.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
Then how come Vincent is still seeing and in love with Lucrecia? Same difference, if you ask me.
Didn't he kinda put that behind him at the end of DoC? Ya know, his own game with his own development no matter how shitty it was? And even if he didn't, A.) Lucrecia ISN'T DEAD, and B.) Vincent is not Cloud, so how is this relevant at all?
Vincent put his *suffering* over it behind him in DoC, but he didn't stop loving Lucrecia. Second, Lucrecia may as well be dead - she's certainly not alive. And third, Vincent's in pretty much the same situation as Cloud. Vincent and Cloud are both part of the physical world, while Lucrecia and Aerith are both spiritual entities. (Or at least, I can't think of a better way to explain exactly what Lucrecia is.
)
GLD said:
Chantara said:
Once again, this game is not based on reality.
I'd say no shit, but I think its implied anyway.
Then stop demanding realism.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
You have a dead guy getting resurrected and coming back to fight Cloud, you have an alien creature living for thousands of years without a head, you have the Planet creating WEAPONS in order to fight the alien, you have Shinra creating super-soldiers by injecting them with alien DNA, you have a dude summoning a Meteor to destroy the planet, you have a member of an extinct species (Red XIII) finding a mate and having children - and you're worried about realistic it is? LMAO
Even in a fantastic things, some things are still impossible. Just because a work of fiction has different physics, metaphysics, etc than our own doesn't mean it does not have its own, self-contained system of universal laws.
And I'm suggesting something that is totally possible within the framework of the metaphysical laws that govern Cloud's world. Sephy comes back after dying numerous times, the Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients hang around for hundreds of years, Ifalna's spirit keeps talking to Aerith while Aerith is growing up, Lucrecia doesn't really die (but she doesn't really live, either). Sorry, but that obviously means that within the metaphysical framework of Cloud's world, Aerith is able to keep communicating with him and being with him on a spiritual basis.
GLD said:
And Nanaki finding a mate is a terrible example anyway, since we have BC to show us that he was not the last of his kind after all.
Right - we get so many frequent updates about Deneh that we know exactly what's happened to her. <_<
GLD said:
But yes, we are still worried about how realistic it is, not in comparison to OUR world, but within the universe of the story itself. And any time the dead interact with the living, its either for a VERY IMPORTANT CAUSE (Aerith and Zack's appearance in ACC) or a fucking unnatural, bad thing (Sephiroth's resurrection, the Gi Tribe).
And once again, I've explained how these things are possible according to the metaphysical framework explained in Cloud's world.
GLD said:
And yes, if they want SE can say that Aerith has returned to the LS, but is still holding on to her individuality rather than diffusing. Thus, if they want her to she could come back.
Exactly. Thank you.
GLD said:
This does not change the fact that she has not, as of DoC, done so again.
Which does not mean that she won't.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
Depends on the next plot that Nomura and Nojima come up with.
This is actually true. It has no bearing on the past or present we are debating, of course. Speculating on what MIGHT happen is useless at this venture.
Agreed.
GLD said:
We're talking about what DID happen. You're pretending it doesn't mean Cloti is canon/Aerith is back in the Lifestream and not squatting in Cloud's soul somehow.
No, I'm saying that Cloti has not been
confirmed canon, that it's just as possible that Clerith is canon, and that it's just as possible that SE left it open to interpretation.
SE has said that more than once, BTW. Sesc gave that one quote where Nomura said he didn't have a clue whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC. Since Nomura was one of the writers of AC, that means SE didn't decide whether or not Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved. This means the HA HW scene is
NOT canon.
Also, here's another example from Nomura:
Nomura: "AC is a film made by 'Japanese people'. In Hollywood, I think there's this trend that the meaning of every scene has to be clearly shown, but this film isn't necessarily like that. The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we've made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that's still another possible answer. I guess 'comparing answers' could be one of the ways to enjoy the film. I think AC is the kind of film that people will want to talk about when they've watched it." ~Nomura, Director's Commentary on Japanese edition of AC
Again, Nomura's saying that it's open to interpretation.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
Like you say - apparently. Everyone seemed pretty surprised to see Sephy in FFVII, too.
Well yes, they were surprised since they really had no idea what had happened to him post-Nibelheim at that point. Remember how Cloud's story just stops in Kalm? Whether they expected him to be dead or alive, they still could have been surprised there because they just didn't know what happened.
Yes, but it was generally assumed that he was dead.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
[Nomura] says that 1) consciousness is what lives on. 2) that even when someone dies, their consciousness is still with us. 3) Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.
That means that Aerith is still available to Cloud anytime he wants.
Now put that together with the fact that Aerith is said to live on inside ALL her comrades, not just Cloud.
Exactly what quote are you talking about? This one?
Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. ~Aerith's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
If that's the quote you mean, it certainly doesn't mean that Aerith lives on in the hearts of others as much as Cloud - especially since they can't see her and Cloud can.
GLD said:
Add that to the fact that she is said to return to the LS where she belongs. Get the sum of "you are wrong."
Who said the LS is "where she belongs" and where was it said?
GLD said:
Chantara said:
We have nothing to show that Aerith doesn't exist after ACC. According to Bugenhagen's quote that I gave above, Aerith's soul and consciousness continue to exist. According to Nomura, Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. Therefore, she exists.
Jesus, you have no idea how the Lifestream works at all do you? Even the Cetra have to dissolve their individuality eventually. Now, she COULD still exist post-ACC. This is true, though if she did... where the fuck was she when OMEGA was about to end all life on the Planet? Seems like the sort of thing she'd try to get in on, to me, were she in any way able. But no, what you've just given us to work with does not PROVE Aerith still exists, or even suggest that she does, when viewed within the wider context of the Compilation and its specific set of metaphysics. At most, it supports a possibility. And as you yourself love to point out (even when faced with much more concrete evidence than this), just because something CAN be true does not mean that it IS.
I explained it all above.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
And WHY was that image not in Safe&Sound? Was it removed because Aerith no longer exists, or was it removed because SE wanted to make a more neutral ending for ACC? Calling was so obviously promoting CloudxAerith that I would guess SE went for something more neutral this time.
Where does it say Calling was promoting CloudXAerith again? You still ignoring how her presence was dismissed as "something without substance" etc? And how was the ending of ACC neutral when it includes Cloud, having returned home to his family, taking his adopted son out to visit the site of Zack's death?
Given that
Calling showed Aerith waiting for Cloud and that
Calling also showed Aerith superimposed over Cloud, I think it should be obvious to anyone who's not in total denial that it promotes Clerith.
And so what if Aerith in
Calling is referred to as "something without substance"? I wouldn't call a spiritual presence as "something with substance". And even if she was an "illusion" (a term used by Tres), that only means that Aerith's the one on Cloud's mind and that he's thinking of her.
Third, what does visiting the site of Zack's death have to do with the LT? The mere fact that we did not see Cloud returning home and kissing Tifa, and not showing Cloud in the flowerfields kissing Aerith makes it more neutral.
Safe&Sound shows
both women instead of just Aerith, like in
Calling.
GLD said:
Logic my ass, that is ridiculous and you know it. Absolutely nothing about that suggests ANYTHING like what you claim here.
All of your loud bitching says to me that you just can't think of any other way to counter what I've said.
GLD said:
If this is how logic works, I've been doing it wrong my entire fucking life. And I am pretty sure, based on experience with the folks who were getting paid to teach me this kinda thing, that such is not the case. Once again, you confuse/conflate a necessity of style caused by a voice actor's absence with an intent to convey some overly vague Clerith hint. You REALLY need to look up Occam's Razor.
Ditto.
GLD said:
Chantara said:
And there is nothing to suggest that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene, but you seem certain that one exists without any substantiation. So I could easily say a CloudxTifa romance is "entirely invented by yourself and others like you".
This would be entirely true, except there are pages worth of additional, FACTUAL evidence supprting Cloti that you have to ignore for that to be so.
The same way you ignore the evidence for Clerith.
GLD said:
You refuse to see the substantiation, that does not mean it isn't there. No such substantiation exists for Clerith, putting them on highly uneven footing. I seriously do not see how you can continue to make these blatantly false claims of yours, with or without a straight face.
And I see your claims as pure speculation, but that doesn't make me I go around screaming about what an idiot you are.
GLD said:
The mirror. Look into it. Seriously, how in the HELL can you respond to what Vendel said with that? It requires cartwheels and backflips of logic, let alone leaps, to make what he is referring to in any way about Aerith. That would be speculation. What Vendel and most everyone else is doing is not quite the same, being as we're told Cloud went home after ACC it is pretty damned clear why he is calling to have Tifa close up.
I never said he didn't go home. I know he went home. So how does Cloud going home prove Cloti exactly? Especially if Cloud's sleeping in his own room? Did Tifa living at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar and taking care of Marlene mean that Tifa had a romantic relationship with Barret?
GLD said:
Chantara said:
And if SE deemed it necessary to have Ayumi Ito there for the recording, I'm sure they could have arranged it by switching the day or time for the shoot. Instead, they decided her participation was unimportant.
Sure, just switch the day and time around! Its not like schedules and deadlines exist or anything. That's just silly talk.
Yeah, it's very silly to suggest that an actor/actress make changes in their schedules. <_<
GLD said:
HOW DOES IT MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THIS?! Substantiate this, if you can, with something beyond common knowledge about how phones work irl, please. How do you know SE DID WANT it to seem like someone is listening in, assuming you manage to substantiate the above (which you will not because it is pants-on-the-head ridiculous stretching of any sort of logic). And would you let the ridiculous "meeting someone in a flower field" nonsense at some point? This has been addressed by SE, even in the AC credits there WAS NO SUBSTANCE present for Aerith in the flower field. In ACC, she isn't there at all. Deal with it already. It will be healthier in the long run.
Why don't YOU come up with a counter other than shouting, "THAT'S STUPID!!!!!!" Or can't you come up with anything better?
GLD said:
Chantara said:
And we have zero evidence that Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa after the HW scene.
We don't? But... I remember a whole bunch of stuff. Did it disappear? Or was it never there to begin with?! *deep introspective, philosophical moment* Oh wait, just clicked back a few pages, there it is
Okay, let me put it this way: there's no evidence that I find at all convincing. I'm
way more convinced by the idea that Cloud loves Aerith.
I can't be bothered with the rest of your PM since it's nothing but you bitching and calling me stupid and not bothering with any counter argument because you're so convinced that you're right.
... well I'll just clarify anyway. When I said the UO went with Aerith's date, I meant in the story summary specifically. 
