The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

And to everyone:
Can we stop expecting people to prove negatives? It's really kind of silly and if anything in this thread is dishonest, it's that.

Everyone?
Even if everyone's doing it, no one is doing it with the amazing frequency of Anastar.
Plus a number of other dishonest moves, too. Facts morphing into opinions comes to mind.

And if you're not going to send that letter, then I suppose everyone else will simply have to sign it and pass it along to her, then.

 

[Dashell]

Everyone?
Even if everyone's doing it, no one is doing it with the amazing frequency of Anastar.
Plus a number of other dishonest moves, too. Facts morphing into opinions comes to mind.

Okay I think you're right, I must have misread something in GLD's latest response wrong. Forget that I said this to "everyone." And now this is a one liner so...

Does Cloud's desk even have a chair? I don't see one.
Christ that space is sparse even for an office.

 

[ClerithRaven]

The same Cloud that spend hard earned money to modify his bike to no end, has his own very intricate symbol all over himself, and was pictured as caring about details when correcting Barret when they were building the new Seventh Heaven now isn't the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like?

Well, people do have their own luxuries they'd like to spend money on.
I know I don't care much about what my room looks like. I mostly care about my bulletin board and bookshelf. Cloud could be the same.
And about the details on 7th Heaven, maybe because he wanted it to be safe and sound to live in?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's completely inconsistent and bizarre.

How is someone going to care so much about their clothes, bike, appearance, and the look of where they live but not have any regard or care whatsoever in how their own room looks?

Don't be ridiculous or dishonest here. Personal experience aside, that is so backwards and inconsistent that it's laughable. There's no way at all that makes any logical sense.

If Cloud has such regard for fashion, decorating the outside of Seventh Heaven, and even crafting his own bike and Wolf motif, then how would he NOT care about his own room?

Seriously, let's not bullshit here.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Was there ever a time in CoT that Cloud was mentioned to pay particular attention to anything else, besides his "clothes, bike, appearance, and the look of where they live"? My memory is failing me, so please do enlighten me on it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No but again. Logic.

If one is cognizant of those matters (the home, his weapon, his bike, his clothes, etc), then it stands to reason he'd care about one of his most personal spaces he would inhabit.

His room.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I need to go back and actually re-read some posts, so if this is already addressed I apologize.

Cloud's office is an office with a cot. Yes. Here's the thing that should--if common sense is a factor in anyone's head in here--shut the door on the discussion without using my husband/boyfriend/father examples (which make sense, but are apparently being shoved aside)... The phone line for Strife Delivery Service goes into THAT room. Not the main line for Seventh Heaven. It's a separate BUSINESS line. Which is why Tifa has to haul her ass upstairs to answer it. She answers it 'Strife Delivery Service...' Now, call me crazy, but I don't think having your business line in your bedroom makes any fucking sense. Especially if you're on the road making the deliveries. Logic would be to have it in an office where messages can be taken and stuck on something like, oh, I don't know, post it notes or something. If this was his bedroom, having his business line go in there when there are clearly other options, such as 7ths main line or even HIS own cell phone just screams OFFICE.

Assuming the argument will still stand in face of common sense from some people (and you know it will). "Cloud, you should really clean off your desk once in awhile." So...the kids get to play in Cloud's bedroom? Wut? The fact that Marlene has access to that room alone says it's not a 'private' area as bedrooms are. It makes no sense that it's open at all if it's Cloud's bedroom. Totally bad form for Tifa or Marlene and Denzel or anyone to be in there answering phones if it is a bedroom.

If the Celriths want to argue that Cloud and Tifa had separate bedrooms, fucking do it--because you know what, I can't prove to you that they don't. I can speculate based on CoT, but I haven't seen his bedroom or Tifa's. None of us have. But if you try and argue Cloud's office is his bedroom based on a cot? I'm going to laugh at you because it's just ridiculous.

**goes back to read thread**

 

[ClerithRaven]

If one is cognizant of those matters (the home, his weapon, his bike, his clothes, etc), then it stands to reason he'd care about one of his most personal spaces he would inhabit.

He wasn't home most of the time in CoT early on, so I guess he didn't pay much attention to details concerning his room. Just a thought.

The phone line for Strife Delivery Service goes into THAT room. Not the main line for Seventh Heaven. It's a separate BUSINESS line. Which is why Tifa has to haul her ass upstairs to answer it. She answers it 'Strife Delivery Service...' Now, call me crazy, but I don't think having your business line in your bedroom makes any fucking sense. Especially if you're on the road making the deliveries. Logic would be to have it in an office where messages can be taken and stuck on something like, oh, I don't know, post it notes or something. If this was his bedroom, having his business line go in there when there are clearly other options, such as 7ths main line or even HIS own cell phone just screams OFFICE.

Hmmm. Considering that it was Cloud's *own* business, the name says it all, having it straight in his bedroom could be convenient. He wouldn't have to transfer rooms just to answer a phone call for a delivery. Maybe its for formality or whatever. The delivery service did start later on after they had built 7th Heaven. Maybe that was his bedroom, then he turned half of it into an office or something.
Well, considering in CoT, Cloud claimed that Barret would say that 7th Heaven was "Tifa's Place" (if I recall correctly) as a reason for not stopping Barret from leaving, Cloud must have chosen the line for his business to go separately, of course. And the cellphone being a personal belonging, something it wouldn't be right to have it as the delivery service line. People would be contacting him constantly, people he didn't know that well.
Oh well.

If the Celriths want to argue that Cloud and Tifa had separate bedrooms, fucking do it--because you know what, I can't prove to you that they don't. I can speculate based on CoT, but I haven't seen his bedroom or Tifa's. None of us have. But if you try and argue Cloud's office is his bedroom based on a cot? I'm going to laugh at you because it's just ridiculous.

CoT gave us a lot to speculate on.
Well, I am gonna argue that he DOES sleep in that room, bedroom or office or whatever it is, due to the presence of said cot.

x-x-x-x-x

I gotta go sleep now. G'nyt!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Touching on this specifically

Okay but Aerith's date seems to be pictured at least in the main summary. I guess I thought that they mentioned her date in there too. But the UO and Dismantled go with her date...

The UO also, IIRC, goes with Tifa's date in her timeline, and the U10 has Tifa's date in her and Cloud's profile, and Memorial Album and the U20 both have all four dates.
Contrary to the highwind scene where the focus has rather consistently been on one version of the scene (And the rare instance where the focus was on the other version, it told us the contents of that version of the scene- an apathetic conversation, meaning the conversation itself is apathetic, not the people having it- are contrary to what we've been told happened, period, end of. And that's just sharing feelings. An apathetic conversation would lack those. A 'disinterested' conversation, to humor Anastar, while a bit nonsensical, would also not include sharing feelings.) the focus has not been on any particular scene, with numerous scenes given focus, and in some cases, all of them.

There's a reason I settled with the admittedly 'fuck it all' compromise of 'they all happened and fuck the inconsistencies' because it changes nothing, the four dates technically can all happen- if not in their totalities- and I don't really want to bother with discussing this one irrelevant detail any longer.

He wasn't home most of the time in CoT early on, so I guess he didn't pay much attention to details concerning his room. Just a thought.

Actually, he was home consistently, THEN he spent all his time working, THEN he began spending more time at home again.
And even during his 'throw himself into work' he still came home to 7th Heaven each night.

Hmmm. Considering that it was Cloud's *own* business, the name says it all, having it straight in his bedroom could be convenient. He wouldn't have to transfer rooms just to answer a phone call for a delivery. Maybe its for formality or whatever. The delivery service did start later on after they had built 7th Heaven. Maybe that was his bedroom, then he turned half of it into an office or something.

This begets the question of why bother with a home phone in an office and not just using his Cell.
Also, it might be a guest bedroom as well as Cloud's office. This is not something that can be discounted.

Well, considering in CoT, Cloud claimed that Barret would say that 7th Heaven was "Tifa's Place" (if I recall correctly) as a reason for not stopping Barret from leaving, Cloud must have chosen the line for his business to go separately, of course. And the cellphone being a personal belonging, something it wouldn't be right to have it as the delivery service line. People would be contacting him constantly, people he didn't know that well.
Oh well.

Barrett also considers that Cloud and Tifa are together, that Tifa's whipping Cloud into shape, and Cid thinks she wears the pants.
As for 'Tifa's place,' even if it's Tifa's place, it's where Cloud belongs, where he's meant to live. It's his place too.

CoT gave us a lot to speculate on.
Well, I am gonna argue that he DOES sleep in that room, bedroom or office or whatever it is, due to the presence of said cot.

I will argue he does not for two factors-
1. Home offices with cots and even beds are not automatically the bedrooms of those who use them as offices. My father's office is my bedroom when I visit, for example.
2. In COT, we are given a scene which most parsimoniously- and less creepily- occurs with Tifa already in the room with Cloud when it begins, rather than her waiting outside for him to sleep. In this scene, he also gives no thought to her being in his room, watching him as he sleeps. This tells us that Cloud, awkward, insular Cloud, is perfectly fine with her being in his room at all hours. That suggests they share a room or are in each other's rooms so often as to make no nevermind. Creeper!Tifa would be an amazingly clingy woman, and there's no way that Noj et. all who wanted to make sure she was not clingy, would willingly depict such a woman.

 

[Dashell]

Actually when I said the

and I don't really want to bother with discussing this one irrelevant detail any longer.

... well I'll just clarify anyway. When I said the UO went with Aerith's date, I meant in the story summary specifically.

I also agree with FHS on the office/room thing. If Cloud does have a separate room from Tifa, we haven't seen it. We've seen an office, but I would hope that since the kids have nice beds, that Cloud would get one too. ... and a dresser and ... other things that rooms should have

 

[Ryushikaze]

Actually when I said the



... well I'll just clarify anyway. When I said the UO went with Aerith's date, I meant in the story summary specifically.

The reason why it's irrelevant in the current subject is because it changes nothing. Even if Aerith officially got the date and officially pours her heart out... Cloud has no fucking clue. Same with Tifa. Even if HER date was official and she poured her heart out, Cloud's clueless. He's clueless until later.
The highwind mention on the FTOIL page is notable because it stresses the MUTUALITY of those feelings. It's not just one person saying 'OMG LURVES' and the other having no clue, it's A and B both telling the other, and the other understanding.

 

[Dashell]

Okay since no one has taken me up on this as of yet, I decided to do it myself. I've asked many times in this thread for any Cleriths to provide an inarguable quote, past/present/future/optional or not to say that Cloud loves or even COULD love Aerith. I have received no such quote thus far. The closest thing posted was from CoLW which simply tells us Aerith desires Cloud, which we already know.

So let's look at this.

We have the For the One I Love page, right? Many have argued that this page shows that either couple is possible. So let's just say that's accurate and that's really what the page portrays... that page cancels each other's quotes out then. I won't count that. In fact, just to be fair, I won't use anything from the FTOIL page at all. Let's pretend it doesn't even exist. So no CxT share feelings or anything of the like either. That okay with everyone?


So that leaves us with these Cloti quotes.

1. "If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." From Tifa's UO profile. Now since this says the HA scene is about romantic feelings (Feelings of desire), we know that all references to the HA scene are romantic.

2. "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." - this is talking about the HA scene so that one counts.

3. "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." - also talking about the HA scene. (yes these are optional, but I said optionals count)

4. Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER. Yes, it's in the past, but as I said past, present or future counts.

5. Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.

6.Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her. Such pompous declare turns out to be failed—considering this, Cloud conceals his identity and cold sweat under his helmet when he confronts his hometown.


Those are the ones I can think of right now for Cloti. For Clerith we have... none that I know of. ... so ... really now...

I mean if it's really open to interpretation why are there this many romantic Cloti quotes but none for Clerith? Can anyone answer this?

 

[Anastar]

Quex

Since I noticed your posts above -

1. It sounds like people are asking Quex to send me an email. I remember somebody suggesting that I send an email conceding, which I have already refused to do because I don't think I'm even close to losing. If that's what the email's about, forget it. I'll just print it out and burn it.
2. I thought there were plenty of quotes substantiating Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith in that essay I gave you. But here's some more:

1. Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~CoLWhite

2. It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

3. Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

4. Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Nomura, interview with Official U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, issue 61, page 139-140

5. She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film. ~Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's voice actor), pg. 58, Reunion Files

6. In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

7.On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
8. Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her leads him on a new path. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


9. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which [Tifa] is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


10. FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

11. The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."
As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~pg. 120, FFVII Ultimania Omega

12. The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.
The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.
Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~pg. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega


13. Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. ~DoC game manual, English version


14. It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder…
~pg. 142, Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion


15. When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega


16. Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled


17.

Also please note that none of these quotes have an "IF - THEN" qualifier.

=============

Okay, I got this PM yesterday, so I decided to answer it tonight. I'll answer yours tomorrow, Tres.

Gym Leader Devil

She was in the Lifestream during AC/ACC, too. The planet and the Lifestream aren't two different things. The planet, all living things on the planet, and souls are made up of Lifestream. That was explained in the game by Bugenhagen:

I am fairly certain Bugenhagen did in fact explain this in the game. I am also fairly certain that you are badly mangling what he said.

Or I'm not, but you just think I am.

The Lifestream is the flow of consciousness and spiritual energy that moves around the Planet beneath the crust. Energy from the Lifestream is constantly moving back and forth between the stream itself and the surface as living things are born and die, but the stream is that constantly flowing river Cloud falls into in Mideel. If the Lifestream was EVERYWHERE, then why would we need expensive Mako reactors with deep as fuck pits under them to pump it out?

Not quite. The Lifestream is the flow of consciousness and spiritual energy that moves around the Planet, but it is also part of the Planet. That was said by Bugenhagen in the quote I gave you:

"Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans."
(Bugenhagen lifts his arm.)
"Not just living things. But Spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets."

It does not simply move beneath the crust. It makes up the trees, birds, and humans, as well as the Planet. Same concept as energy in our own world. Energy makes up all physical matter, does it not? Energy can manifest in many forms, can it not? Energy can transfer from one form to another, can it not? Same concept as the Lifestream.

They need expensive Mako reactors to suck the Lifestream out of the Planet because that's where it exists in pure form. On the surface of the planet, it manifests in different forms as trees, birds, and humans - like Bugenhagen said.

So no, she was manifesting on the surface in AC/C. And then she returned to the Lifestream where she belongs afterwards.

In the first place, it's not "where she belongs". That's simply where you want her to belong coz you don't want her with Cloud.

As Bugenhagen said, "Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world."

We see exceptions throughout the game. For one, Aerith could heard Ifalna talking to her throughout her childhood:

Tifa "Just what does the Planet say?"
Aerith "It's full of people and noisy. That's why I can't make out what they're saying."
(A beat.)
Cloud "You hear it now?"
Aerith "I, I only heard it at the Church in the Slums. Mother said that Midgar was no longer safe. That is.... my real mother."
(She sits back on the cot.)
Aerith "Someday I'll get out of Midgar... Speak with the Planet and find my Promised Land." "...That's what mom said." "I thought I would stop hearing her voice as I grew up, but...."

Why does Aerith keep hearing Ifalna's voice after Ifalna dies if Ifalna is "back in the Lifestream where she belongs" and isn't able to communicate with Aerith any more?

Two, the spirits at the Temple of Ancients:

(Cloud arrives at the Temple of the Ancients. Aerith stands on the rope bridge before it, then falls to the ground.)
Aerith "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..."
"I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..."
"You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will."
"For the future? For us?"

See the highlighted words? Aerith is speaking with the spirits who are at the Temple of Ancients. She says that the Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients could become one with the Planet, but they are stopping it with the strength of their will.

Aerith is also Cetra. She has that same capability. She can stop her return to the Planet as long as she likes. We know she has the strength of will to do it, since she could summon Holy.

The Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients are obviously in the Lifestream since they are spirits, yet their consciousness also exists on the Planet and is able to manifest on the Planet. How long ago was the Temple of Ancients built? Those Cetra spirits have been there that long.

If they can do it, Aerith is able to do it. Like Bugenhagen said, there are exceptions.

Honestly, why are you even saying such things that go completely against the very quote you're trying to argue? If she was in the LS the ENTIRE TIME, then how could she possibly RETURN TO IT?

I just explained.

See, even with a lengthy quote from the game, you still don't seem to get it. Spirit energy and the Lifestream are not exactly the same thing. One is largely made up of the other, but that does not make them synonymous.

And kinetic energy and potential energy are not exactly the same thing, either - yet one can transform into the other.

So all life on the planet is made up of Lifestream, or Spirit Energy. Aerith is still made up of lifestream or Spirit Energy. So is Cloud. Just because Aerith's in the Lifestream doesn't mean that she's separate from Cloud, especially since Hojo injected Cloud with an excess amount of Mako energy - otherwise known as Spirit Energy or Lifestream.

See above. Yes, all life is made up of Spirit Energy. No, the Lifestream is not JUST said energy, it refers to a specific flow of said energy and the memories and consciousness of those who have lived and returned to said stream. Do get your shit straight before you launch a spiel about it when you can.

Do stop criticizing before launching spiels at me and dismissing what I say before you even consider what I'm saying.

Also, I really don't think Hojo infusing Cloud with Mako really makes him "more made of Lifestream" even if that made any sense to begin with.

Did or did Hojo not inject his subjects with Mako energy along with Jenova cells? Was or was Cloud not immersed in a tube of Mako energy by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident? Did or did not the doctor in Mideel say that Cloud had Mako poisoning as a result of being exposed to a high level of Mako energy for a protracted period of time?

As a result, Cloud obviously has a higher level of Mako energy, aka Lifestream, inside of him than humans who have not been subjected to this kind of experimentation.

Then Nomura told us in Distance that Aerith's consciousness lives inside of Cloud. So Aerith's consciousness is actually living inside of Cloud - in the Mako energy inside of him. That means that Aerith is available to Cloud at any time.

Are you admitting that you literally believe Aerith actually does the spiritual parasite thing?!

No, I guess you just like to put it that way so that Aerith gets characterized as some sort of leech.

Or, if that's too insulting for you, the spiritual hermit crab thing?! Really?! I mean... that's tinfoil hat crazy, imo.

Then how come Nomura said that Aerith's consciousness is still with Cloud?

Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

Try to turn her into some kind of parasite all you want, but Nomura says that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. That means Aerith's consciousness is with him and part of his spiritual energy.

Also, this is a good example of a contradiction. If Aerith literally lived inside Cloud's spirit energy, (albeit split between Tifa, Marlene, Barret... you should know this by now) then how can she return to the LS where she belongs? Because, as explained above, Cloud's spirit energy is not synonymous with the Lifestream.

It contradicts nothing, including my explanation of how Spirit Energy and Lifestream are basically the same thing. See above.

Then how come Vincent is still seeing and in love with Lucrecia? Same difference, if you ask me.

Didn't he kinda put that behind him at the end of DoC? Ya know, his own game with his own development no matter how shitty it was? And even if he didn't, A.) Lucrecia ISN'T DEAD, and B.) Vincent is not Cloud, so how is this relevant at all?

Vincent put his *suffering* over it behind him in DoC, but he didn't stop loving Lucrecia. Second, Lucrecia may as well be dead - she's certainly not alive. And third, Vincent's in pretty much the same situation as Cloud. Vincent and Cloud are both part of the physical world, while Lucrecia and Aerith are both spiritual entities. (Or at least, I can't think of a better way to explain exactly what Lucrecia is. )

Once again, this game is not based on reality.

I'd say no shit, but I think its implied anyway.

Then stop demanding realism.

You have a dead guy getting resurrected and coming back to fight Cloud, you have an alien creature living for thousands of years without a head, you have the Planet creating WEAPONS in order to fight the alien, you have Shinra creating super-soldiers by injecting them with alien DNA, you have a dude summoning a Meteor to destroy the planet, you have a member of an extinct species (Red XIII) finding a mate and having children - and you're worried about realistic it is? LMAO

Even in a fantastic things, some things are still impossible. Just because a work of fiction has different physics, metaphysics, etc than our own doesn't mean it does not have its own, self-contained system of universal laws.

And I'm suggesting something that is totally possible within the framework of the metaphysical laws that govern Cloud's world. Sephy comes back after dying numerous times, the Cetra spirits at the Temple of Ancients hang around for hundreds of years, Ifalna's spirit keeps talking to Aerith while Aerith is growing up, Lucrecia doesn't really die (but she doesn't really live, either). Sorry, but that obviously means that within the metaphysical framework of Cloud's world, Aerith is able to keep communicating with him and being with him on a spiritual basis.

And Nanaki finding a mate is a terrible example anyway, since we have BC to show us that he was not the last of his kind after all.

Right - we get so many frequent updates about Deneh that we know exactly what's happened to her. <_<

But yes, we are still worried about how realistic it is, not in comparison to OUR world, but within the universe of the story itself. And any time the dead interact with the living, its either for a VERY IMPORTANT CAUSE (Aerith and Zack's appearance in ACC) or a fucking unnatural, bad thing (Sephiroth's resurrection, the Gi Tribe).

And once again, I've explained how these things are possible according to the metaphysical framework explained in Cloud's world.

And yes, if they want SE can say that Aerith has returned to the LS, but is still holding on to her individuality rather than diffusing. Thus, if they want her to she could come back.

Exactly. Thank you.

This does not change the fact that she has not, as of DoC, done so again.

Which does not mean that she won't.

Depends on the next plot that Nomura and Nojima come up with.

This is actually true. It has no bearing on the past or present we are debating, of course. Speculating on what MIGHT happen is useless at this venture.

Agreed.

We're talking about what DID happen. You're pretending it doesn't mean Cloti is canon/Aerith is back in the Lifestream and not squatting in Cloud's soul somehow.

No, I'm saying that Cloti has not been confirmed canon, that it's just as possible that Clerith is canon, and that it's just as possible that SE left it open to interpretation.

SE has said that more than once, BTW. Sesc gave that one quote where Nomura said he didn't have a clue whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC. Since Nomura was one of the writers of AC, that means SE didn't decide whether or not Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved. This means the HA HW scene is NOT canon.

Also, here's another example from Nomura:

Nomura: "AC is a film made by 'Japanese people'. In Hollywood, I think there's this trend that the meaning of every scene has to be clearly shown, but this film isn't necessarily like that. The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we've made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that's still another possible answer. I guess 'comparing answers' could be one of the ways to enjoy the film. I think AC is the kind of film that people will want to talk about when they've watched it." ~Nomura, Director's Commentary on Japanese edition of AC

Again, Nomura's saying that it's open to interpretation.

Like you say - apparently. Everyone seemed pretty surprised to see Sephy in FFVII, too.

Well yes, they were surprised since they really had no idea what had happened to him post-Nibelheim at that point. Remember how Cloud's story just stops in Kalm? Whether they expected him to be dead or alive, they still could have been surprised there because they just didn't know what happened.

Yes, but it was generally assumed that he was dead.

[Nomura] says that 1) consciousness is what lives on. 2) that even when someone dies, their consciousness is still with us. 3) Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

That means that Aerith is still available to Cloud anytime he wants.

Now put that together with the fact that Aerith is said to live on inside ALL her comrades, not just Cloud.

Exactly what quote are you talking about? This one?

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. ~Aerith's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

If that's the quote you mean, it certainly doesn't mean that Aerith lives on in the hearts of others as much as Cloud - especially since they can't see her and Cloud can.

Add that to the fact that she is said to return to the LS where she belongs. Get the sum of "you are wrong."

Who said the LS is "where she belongs" and where was it said?

We have nothing to show that Aerith doesn't exist after ACC. According to Bugenhagen's quote that I gave above, Aerith's soul and consciousness continue to exist. According to Nomura, Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. Therefore, she exists.

Jesus, you have no idea how the Lifestream works at all do you? Even the Cetra have to dissolve their individuality eventually. Now, she COULD still exist post-ACC. This is true, though if she did... where the fuck was she when OMEGA was about to end all life on the Planet? Seems like the sort of thing she'd try to get in on, to me, were she in any way able. But no, what you've just given us to work with does not PROVE Aerith still exists, or even suggest that she does, when viewed within the wider context of the Compilation and its specific set of metaphysics. At most, it supports a possibility. And as you yourself love to point out (even when faced with much more concrete evidence than this), just because something CAN be true does not mean that it IS.

I explained it all above.

And WHY was that image not in Safe&Sound? Was it removed because Aerith no longer exists, or was it removed because SE wanted to make a more neutral ending for ACC? Calling was so obviously promoting CloudxAerith that I would guess SE went for something more neutral this time.

Where does it say Calling was promoting CloudXAerith again? You still ignoring how her presence was dismissed as "something without substance" etc? And how was the ending of ACC neutral when it includes Cloud, having returned home to his family, taking his adopted son out to visit the site of Zack's death?

Given that Calling showed Aerith waiting for Cloud and that Calling also showed Aerith superimposed over Cloud, I think it should be obvious to anyone who's not in total denial that it promotes Clerith.

And so what if Aerith in Calling is referred to as "something without substance"? I wouldn't call a spiritual presence as "something with substance". And even if she was an "illusion" (a term used by Tres), that only means that Aerith's the one on Cloud's mind and that he's thinking of her.

Third, what does visiting the site of Zack's death have to do with the LT? The mere fact that we did not see Cloud returning home and kissing Tifa, and not showing Cloud in the flowerfields kissing Aerith makes it more neutral. Safe&Sound shows both women instead of just Aerith, like in Calling.

Logic my ass, that is ridiculous and you know it. Absolutely nothing about that suggests ANYTHING like what you claim here.

All of your loud bitching says to me that you just can't think of any other way to counter what I've said.

If this is how logic works, I've been doing it wrong my entire fucking life. And I am pretty sure, based on experience with the folks who were getting paid to teach me this kinda thing, that such is not the case. Once again, you confuse/conflate a necessity of style caused by a voice actor's absence with an intent to convey some overly vague Clerith hint. You REALLY need to look up Occam's Razor.

Ditto.

And there is nothing to suggest that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene, but you seem certain that one exists without any substantiation. So I could easily say a CloudxTifa romance is "entirely invented by yourself and others like you".

This would be entirely true, except there are pages worth of additional, FACTUAL evidence supprting Cloti that you have to ignore for that to be so.

The same way you ignore the evidence for Clerith.

You refuse to see the substantiation, that does not mean it isn't there. No such substantiation exists for Clerith, putting them on highly uneven footing. I seriously do not see how you can continue to make these blatantly false claims of yours, with or without a straight face.

And I see your claims as pure speculation, but that doesn't make me I go around screaming about what an idiot you are.

The mirror. Look into it. Seriously, how in the HELL can you respond to what Vendel said with that? It requires cartwheels and backflips of logic, let alone leaps, to make what he is referring to in any way about Aerith. That would be speculation. What Vendel and most everyone else is doing is not quite the same, being as we're told Cloud went home after ACC it is pretty damned clear why he is calling to have Tifa close up.

I never said he didn't go home. I know he went home. So how does Cloud going home prove Cloti exactly? Especially if Cloud's sleeping in his own room? Did Tifa living at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar and taking care of Marlene mean that Tifa had a romantic relationship with Barret?

And if SE deemed it necessary to have Ayumi Ito there for the recording, I'm sure they could have arranged it by switching the day or time for the shoot. Instead, they decided her participation was unimportant.

Sure, just switch the day and time around! Its not like schedules and deadlines exist or anything. That's just silly talk.

Yeah, it's very silly to suggest that an actor/actress make changes in their schedules. <_<

HOW DOES IT MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THIS?! Substantiate this, if you can, with something beyond common knowledge about how phones work irl, please. How do you know SE DID WANT it to seem like someone is listening in, assuming you manage to substantiate the above (which you will not because it is pants-on-the-head ridiculous stretching of any sort of logic). And would you let the ridiculous "meeting someone in a flower field" nonsense at some point? This has been addressed by SE, even in the AC credits there WAS NO SUBSTANCE present for Aerith in the flower field. In ACC, she isn't there at all. Deal with it already. It will be healthier in the long run.

Why don't YOU come up with a counter other than shouting, "THAT'S STUPID!!!!!!" Or can't you come up with anything better?

And we have zero evidence that Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa after the HW scene.

We don't? But... I remember a whole bunch of stuff. Did it disappear? Or was it never there to begin with?! *deep introspective, philosophical moment* Oh wait, just clicked back a few pages, there it is

Okay, let me put it this way: there's no evidence that I find at all convincing. I'm way more convinced by the idea that Cloud loves Aerith.

I can't be bothered with the rest of your PM since it's nothing but you bitching and calling me stupid and not bothering with any counter argument because you're so convinced that you're right.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah I knew that was going to happen

I'm talking about quotes that CAN NOT be argued by us. I'm not talking quote that you THINK show Cloud loves Aerith or quotes that you THINK cannot be refuted, I'm talking 100% do say he loves/loved her. You can't say "Doesn't say what feelings" to any of those quotes You yourself have admitted the HA scene is romantic, so those cannot be refuted. You cannot argue the quotes that say Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was a kid> yes, feelings of the past, but it doesn't matter.

Now, past, present or future, do you have ANY quotes saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith, or quotes that say they shared romantic feelings . optional or not. past, present or future. Do you have any?

I can't be bothered with the rest of your PM since it's nothing but you bitching and calling me stupid and not bothering with any counter argument because you're so convinced that you're right.

That made me lol

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Quex

Since I noticed your posts above -

1. It sounds like people are asking Quex to send me an email. I remember somebody suggesting that I send an email conceding, which I have already refused to do because I don't think I'm even close to losing. If that's what the email's about, forget it. I'll just print it out and burn it.
2. I thought there were plenty of quotes substantiating Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith in that essay I gave you. But here's some more:

1. Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~CoLWhite

2. It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

3. Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

4. Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Nomura, interview with Official U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, issue 61, page 139-140

5. She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film. ~Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's voice actor), pg. 58, Reunion Files

6. In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

7.On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
8. Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her leads him on a new path. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


9. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which [Tifa] is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


10. FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

11. The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."
As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~pg. 120, FFVII Ultimania Omega

12. The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.
The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.
Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~pg. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega


13. Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. ~DoC game manual, English version


14. It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder…
~pg. 142, Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion


15. When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega


16. Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled


17.

Also please note that none of these quotes have an "IF - THEN" qualifier.

Where's the quote that says that Cloud loves Aerith?

 

[Dashell]

I've been asking for it for at least 30 pages and at this point, I'm really starting to think there isn't one. ClerithRaven, I see you viewing the topic, do you have any quotes that say they fell in love or shared romantic feelings?

Also:

2. It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

Nomura didn't say this. If you can find the page with the actual quote, I'll translate it for you, but using a vague description of a quote is weird. It'd be like me posting, "It mentions feelings of love for Cloud and Tifa and shows the Highwind scene" - Nojima

and using that as evidence. Can you please get the actual quote for this?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Alright, I'm gonna have to be done with Annie here once again, at least for a little while. There is genuinely nothing in this reply of hers worth responding to (for the however-manyeth time) again.

Since she says she is gonna get to Tres next, I'm tagging you in brother. Drop the elbow of well researched, non-batshit logic, that we might find a three count in this match-up at long last.

Edit: Ok, one thing worth responding to came to mind Anastar. You say you're not even close to losing and would print out Tres' letter for the express purpose of burning it? Well let me just say, I live in the Southern United States and I've met a number of people who talk just that way about the Civil freaking War of all things. And yet, if memory serves, the South did still lose that a long time ago, whether Southerners admitted it then or even still stupidly and obstinately deny it now.

 

[Random Nobody]

In the first place, it's not "where she belongs". That's simply where you want her to belong coz you don't want her with Cloud

Now correct me if I am wrong, but Aerith caught a serious case of dead, so is it really inappropriate to say that the Lifestream is where she belongs?

And just so this isn't a one-liner: double sheets of Mylar significantly raises measured temperature sometimes as much as 100 degrees centigrade.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Where's the quote that says that Cloud loves Aerith?

I thought context could be used? Guess not then.

EDIT:
Are one-liners forbidden here?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I thought context could be used? Guess not then.

Personally, I've been looking for a quote who have the same standards as the C/T quotes.

Like Cloud and Tifa sharing their mutual feelings with each other.

 

[Random Nobody]

I'm presuming context is not allowed because context in this case is subject (or there would not be a 15-years-long bitchfit the size of Africa).

 

[Celes Chere]

@Sunny: Mako just said keep them to a minimum, I think you're fine if it's on topic.

@Anastar: Also here's the Cloti version of your 16 quotes and one picture just for fun.


1. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC. ( I used this one twice because it's irrefutable! There are NO other feelings they could have realized.)


2. Link to FF7 Series

The only woman who knows Cloud&#8217;s past

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud&#8217;s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim&#8217;s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Quote: Text near the image of FF7 with Cloud saying &#8220;Za&#8230;.ck&#8230;Zack&#8230;&#8221; and Tifa&#8217;s &#8220;You remember it!&#8221;
Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud&#8217;s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

3. Quote: text near images of Tifa in the church with Marlene and smiling at her
I want to see Cloud -- Marlene's honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the 'family' they were forming in Edge.

4. Quote: text near the screenshot of Cloud and Tifa remembering the promise on the well
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.

5. Apart from being Cloud's childhood friend,
she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. Although she seems spirited and cheerful, she actually has a family-oriented and modest personality, often paying attention to her surroundings.

6. Compilation Check

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud's mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the "promise".

Quote: text near image of picture in box
If he runs out of strength part way through the story, he will say regretfully that he "couldn't come through on my promise to her".

7. Quote: text near image of Cloud and Tifa, in Edge
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.

8. Quote: text near picture of Seventh Heaven, Cloud and Tifa
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud...


9. The two quickly filled each other in on recent events.
Barret: "I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."
Cid: "Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"
Barret: "Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."
Cid: "Cloud? Run a business?"
Barret: "You can bet it's Tifa kickin' his ass into shape."
Cid: "I see. In the end, it's the women wear the pants."


10. Tifa "...It was so sudden. I was a bit... surprised."
"But..."
"It's true we weren't THAT close, but..."
"After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing."
"I wondered if you were able to get into SOLDIER?"
"I started reading the newspapers, thinking I might see an article about you."
Cloud #4 "Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

11. Cloud: Thanks everyone. Especially you, Tifa. You've been so kind to me... I don't know what to say.


12. When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, "It's not like you to be troubled by your thoughts."

"It's... Just the way I am."

"No. You're much more cheerful and strong. If you've forgotten the way you were then, I'll be there to remind you."

"You really will?"

"Probably," Cloud said blushing.


13. "Cloud, you're smiling."

"I am?"

"Yeah."

"It all starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words. "A new life."

"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things... happened."

"But when I think about how many times I've thought about how I was going to start a new life, it's funny."

"Why?"

"I've always failed to do it."

"And you couldn't smile."

"...I think it will be all right this time."

Cloud became very quiet. "Because you've always been with me."

"I've always been with you."

"That's tomorrow's story," Cloud replied, smiling again.


14. "But I thought it was funny, considering all the other times I thought my 'new life' was starting."

"Why is that funny?"

"Cause I always screwed it up."

"That's not funny."

This time...I think I'll be okay."

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again, "Because I have you"

15. Cloud:"Give me back my hometown, my mother, Tifa".

16. Tifa: "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place."

Cloud: "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice."

Tifa: "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"

Cloud: "Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."


17.

did u notice cloud and tifa are always together
omgh loooove11!1

Cloti sure is an unhealthy and unstable relationship!

 

[ClerithRaven]

Personally, I've been looking for a quote who have the same standards as the C/T quotes.

Like Cloud and Tifa sharing their mutual feelings with each other.

And personally, I'm saying that those quotes give hints on Clerith. That romance was present some way or another.

 

[Celes Chere]

Did you read all of the Cloti quotes? ;c I personally don't see how "They realized their feelings for one another" could be anything else but love. They already were friends, and they don't hate each other... what else is left?

 

[Dashell]

We're not looking for context though. It shouldn't be hard at all. If it's really up to interpretation, you should have at least 6 quotes that say Cloud and Aerith either fell in love or can share romantic feelings.

Does what I'm asking for just not make sense? Let me try to explain again since I'm bad at explaining

I'm saying the ones I posted are talking about romantic feelings because they were SPECIFIED as romantic feelings. I'm not just guessing. Do you have any quotes that say Cloud and Aerith had ROMANTIC feelings that were SPECIFIED as romantic?

EDIT
again, past, present future or optional are fine. I'd just like to see some quotes.

EDIT II:

Tifa: "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"

Nitpickey, but she actually just says "Someone to notice you".. the has isn't there.