The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Kobato

Pro Adventurer
i mean it's not like he even has some special condition of 'i am a particular sort of people ha ha' he's just a loser 30 year old in a ninja costume

Shadow is Relm's dad, he was caught in a train robbery and became a criminal on the run. Clyde is a developed character, it's not like he goes around wearing a ninja costume just because. :/

''Then how come Vincent is still seeing and in love with Lucrecia? Same difference, if you ask me. ''
Play DOC, in the end he gets over her. DOC, like Advent Children has the message to move on from the past, and start a-new, a new beginning. Cloud moves on from his guilt he feels from Aeris and Zack dieing, and Vincent moves on from his past and his feelings towards Lucredia. Vincent also forgives Lucredia for her mistakes. He visits her still during DOC, but in the end, Vincent moves away from the past.

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview


And ? How do you still expect Cloud to have a relationship with a conscious ? It would be rather difficult. Zack also appears throughout ACC and lives inside him. Does this mean that Cloud is some kind of spirit whore ? :/

''And there is nothing to suggest that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene, but you seem certain that one exists without any substantiation. So I could easily say a CloudxTifa romance is "entirely invented by yourself and others like you". ''

That's because they've had no reason to break up. Cloud is happy with Tifa and the children, and Cloud is even willing to stop his job, and Tifa is willing to close the bar so they can spend some extra time with each other, isn't that special ? Because of Cloud's guilt and Geostigma not everything with their relationship has been roses and sunshine, but every couple has it's ups and downs.
How can C/T be invented when they clearly confirmed their love for each other ? That doesn't make any sense :/
It's like saying that a couple have no love for each other, because they're going through a rough patch because one of them has a disease and a depression. xD

BTW, Cloud calls Tifa "my nakama" in Diss 012. Funny he would call her that instead of "my kobito" if she's really his koibito.
And Diss 012 say that Aerith is Cloud's ally, they don't even say that Aerith is Cloud's friend, she's just a team member in battle. At least Cloud calls Tifa a special friend, and a important teammate, and not just a simple ally, which shows that Cloud cares about Tifa so much more than Aerith. What did you say about C/T being just being created by a desperate Cloti's imagination ? I think that Clerith sounds more created by a fan in this case.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
And Diss 012 say that Aerith is Cloud's ally, they don't even say that Aerith is Cloud's friend, she's just a team member in battle. At least Cloud calls Tifa a special friend, and a important teammate, and not just a simple ally, which shows that Cloud cares about Tifa so much more than Aerith. What did you say about C/T being just being created by a desperate Cloti's imagination ? I think that Clerith sounds more created by a fan in this case.
Sorry but where is the ally quote? And when did Cloud say important teammate? What did I miss here?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I think he says "Dear friend" in the Japanese version... nakama doesn't mean important teammate by itself...
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Nakama is a word where context is extremely relevant, but can be used to describe teammates and friends. Bleach is a prime example of that word being used in such a way, same with One Piece... however, since I am not here to throw my meager 2 cents in on a language I have minimal grasp of, I will move over here...

Ah, here we are. Okay. So, yeah, as Cloud is dying he asks for ONE thing.. Not 'please Cosmos, let me see Aerith again', nope. 'Please Cosmos protect my dear friend Tifa'. He exchanges his life for her. Not that I think 012 should be used to debate the LTD, but that's fucking romantic. It just IS.

Also LAWL at pretty much everything Anastar says.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Based on the fact that it's a love story, yes. Probably a bad example in terms of main character's romantic interests. It's a pretty heavy plot point.

Nomura could very easily tell you the greatest threats facing Cloud, Gaia, and the overall story. Probably a great many details to the story of survival that he wanted to create. My point was, and is, that he isn't responsible for creating the character's personalities or delving into their relationships or inner workings. Nojima is. So if Nomura says he doesn't care who's fucking who, it's because he doesn't. He wasn't responsible for creating it. Doesn't change the fact that the person who DID create it could tell us, and does--repeatedly.

So, no, the director is not as insightful to the characters as the writer. Period.

AC is all about Cloud's personal situation. We know this. Rufus, Kadaj, Sephiroth, Geostigma, all this wasn't even gonna be in it initially. The director of AC should at least be aware of whether the main character was living with the love of his life, bailed out on her, or whether he is mourning the loss of the love of his life and Tifa's just a platonic friend.

And I really don't believe anyone seriously thinks he didn't have a clue.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Never said he had no clue. I said Nojima would be a better source for relationship commentary, and had a better grasp of the characters. I also said Nomura doesn't care. And he doesn't.

We don't need that good a source. Just someone willing to answer with yes or no.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
"I knew one thing for certain. Cloud would be with Tifa, everyone would be where they belong." ~Nojima.

I'd say that's a yes. Combined with his commentary on CoT where he said he hadn't intended to get into his views on relationships and marriage but that's what happened. It's a hell yes. ^^
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Backtracking a bit, I always thought it was Sakaguchi that thought of the lifestream, you know with the whole mess with his mother dying pre production and it being an inspiration for a number of the concepts.

Still, I am hesitant for people knocking Nomura's role. I mean if he "only" created the concept of the lifestream and the death of Aerith, that's hardly a limited role. In fact, those are huge plot points, leading right to the salvation of the planet. So Nojima might be the writer, but it sounds like a collaborative effort to me.

Oh, definitely it was a collaborative effort.

It was Sakaguchi who had the concept of a cycle of souls, planets and living things sharing the same energy, and even the notion that when planets die their energy returns to the cosmos the way an animal's energy returns to its planet (which didn't appear in a game until Dirge of Cerberus, but was mentioned in an interview by Kitase way back in the May 2004 issue of EDGE magazine), yes. Kitase was the one who came up with the idea of what this energy would look like, though, and the name "Lifestream."

Nomura's only really been said to have had the idea about Aerith's death -- though, without a doubt, he had other unnamed contributions.

For his part, though, Nomura and Kitase have referred to Nojima as the writer, and Kitase's credited him with what I would call the central plot point of the game (the mysteries of Cloud's identity).

By the way, Sakaguchi actually came up with the cycle of souls concept way back in 1988. His mother died back then, around the time of FFIII's development.



So, in other news, some more relevant stuff has come from us learning that Shoko Nakagawa was the one who interviewed Nomura in the Dorimaga interview mentioned in the FLAREGamer article. After I learned that, I began searching their names together on Google, and I came across another interview with them from a few months later.

Actually, this one was with Shoko, Nomura and Kitase.

Anywho, I've finally pinpointed sources for FFVII's developers saying that the opening of DC was supposed to explain where Vincent and Yuffie were in the ending of FFVII -- which, of course, was a retarded notion all along, and was later contradicted by Yuffie and Vincent's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profiles, which said they were with Cloud and co. for the final battle in the Northern Crater. Then Case of Shin-Ra came along even later and firmly moved the opening scene of DC to the night that Hojo was killed, where it should have been all along.

During this interview from the February 2006 issue of Dorimaga (Gemaga, as I think it was already known by then), there was this exchange between Shoko and Kitase:

「FFVII」のエンディングにはヴィンセントが出てこなかったので、寂しかったんですよ。それが今ごろになってヴィンセント単独のゲ―ムが出てくるなんて、信じられないぐらいうれしいです!

そうなんですよ。前作のエンディングにはヴィンセントとユフィって出てこなかったんですよね。ファンの方も疑問に思っていたみたいですし、ネットにもそういう書き込みがいっばいありました。そこでなぜその時にいなかったか、その理由がわかるシ―ンを「DC」のプロロ―グに入れました。


Shoko Nakagawa: "Since Vincent didn't appear in the ending of FFVII, it was lonely. Now that Vincent has a game of his own coming out, I'm unbelievably happy!"

Kitase: "That's right. Vincent and Yuffie didn't appear in the ending of the previous work. Fans have applied their own thoughts to this quandry, written and posted to the Net. So now, the prologue scene of DC includes the reason why they didn't appear then."

And at the bottom of the page, there's a floating quote from Kitase that says "The reason Vincent wasn't in the ending of FFVII is revealed" (「『FFVII』のエンディングにはヴィンセントがいなかった理由を明かします」).

Here are my sources for this:

http://www.ffsky.com/ff/show1_4586.html
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/inu_f_samax/pic/item/9c01bf2e6593ec5e4ec226ef.jpg

I even managed to find a source for the previously unidentified interview where Nomura said the same thing. That was the November 2005 issue of Dengeki PlayStation:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060528163958/http://dcff7.info/other/1111intv.shtml

それから、FF7のエンディングにユフィとヴィンセントが登場しなかった理由が明かされます。

"In addition, the reason Vincent and Yuffie didn't appear in the ending of FFVII will be revealed."



What do you know, all of FFVII does revolve around the LTD after all. :awesome:
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
I believe the Clerith counter to that is: "He meant location." Which I, in turn, take to mean 'Cloud would be IN Tifa" like Tres should be in me .
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Or say "Well why did he know that? what was so important that they'd be in the same location."
 

Vendel

Banned
Just because Aerith's in the Lifestream doesn't mean that she's separate from Cloud,

Uh...yeah it does. The Lifestream is an actual thing within the planet. CoLB/W isn't that long, and it makes this clear.



-When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man thought that Cloud was no doubt certain of his victory.

-The woman sensed that he was planning to exert his influence to the surface of the planet. She wondered what she could do.

-When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man had already surrendered his inconsequential memories to the planet.

-As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface.

-This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream

-She then thought of Cloud, living in his reality up on the surface. In order to reduce the hatred lingering in the Lifestream, she would have to remove the hatred flooding the real world.



Then Nomura told us in Distance that Aerith's consciousness lives inside of Cloud. So Aerith's consciousness is actually living inside of Cloud - in the Mako energy inside of him. That means that Aerith is available to Cloud at any time.

Really now? So when did she move in? Was it during the movie? Because CoLW makes it clear she is in the lifestream. And at the end of the movie she goes back to the lifestream (with that Pesky Zack). And I can't seem to find anything post ACC or in an ultimania that suggest she has taken residence inside of Cloud. Or even showing up period.

Then how come Vincent is still seeing and in love with Lucrecia? Same difference, if you ask me.

Again, Lucrecia isn't dead. That is kind of an important point.

Once again, this game is not based on reality. You have a dead guy getting resurrected and coming back to fight Cloud, you have an alien creature living for thousands of years without a head, you have the Planet creating WEAPONS in order to fight the alien, you have Shinra creating super-soldiers by injecting them with alien DNA, you have a dude summoning a Meteor to destroy the planet, you have a member of an extinct species (Red XIII) finding a mate and having children - and you're worried about realistic it is? LMAO

Did I state how realistic any of it was? But saying Cloud is in a relationship with lifestream goo is not even in the same ballpark as saying Cloud is in a relationship with the woman he is currently with.

I don't care how much crap you throw out there about Jenova and such. These are not equivalent points.

Yet. You really think they can't come back?

I'm saying that they haven't

Then you're ignoring what Nomura said in Distance:

No, you are ignoring the fact that Aerith can retain her consciousness without stripping away everything except that one thing she has to focus on to maintain individuality.

This again is kind of an important plot point in CoLB/W.

He says that 1) consciousness is what lives on. 2) that even when someone dies, their consciousness is still with us. 3) Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

I was listening to a Hockey game on the Radio the other night. And the announcer said the guy was "dancing with the puck" and he "fired a shot" at the net. So ipso facto people ballroom dance and carry guns in Hockey.

That means that Aerith is still available to Cloud anytime he wants.

Funny how this is never shown or referenced anywhere that Aerith is a parasite living inside of Cloud and manifesting for him. That would seem kind of an importation plot point don't you think?

We have nothing to show that Aerith doesn't exist after ACC.

We have nothing to show that you don't have child porn either. (Isn't getting someone to prove a negative fun?)

And there is nothing to suggest that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene,

Well only everything that is said or happens after that. But other than that? No, nothing.

but you seem certain that one exists without any substantiation.

Your refusal to accept fact does not make it so. You might as well say the moon doesn't orbit the earth.

So I could easily say a CloudxTifa romance is "entirely invented by yourself and others like you".

If by "yourself and others like you" you mean "SE" then yes.

You're still speculating.

Well considering you have made it absolutely clear that nothing matters to you outside of C/A, not the story or the other characters involved, I feel quite secure in thinking that is why you came up with the "ghost listening" nonsense.

How else do you explain Cloud calling Tifa to close the bar the next day and making it about Aerith?

No, since that's only your opinion.

If by "your" you mean "SE" then you would be correct.


....................


I believe the Clerith counter to that is: "He meant location." Which I, in turn, take to mean 'Cloud would be IN Tifa" like Tres should be in me .


Well there should be plenty of room for Tres after I am done.
 
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Anastar

undercover Clerith evangelist
Gym Leader Devil

I have other responses to answer in my Inbox, but I am not going to stay up all night answering everybody. :P Somehow, you guys think that one person can easily dash off responses to like six(?) different people in an hour or something.

Back at GameFaqs in like 1998, we paired one Cloti person up with one Clerith person, and those two debated one another. It made it a helluva lot easier than trying to answer everyone.

Of course, there were many more Clerith people available to debate at that time, but everybody answering and expecting a response is ridiculous, IMO.

At any rate, I just picked one to answer tonight, and it's you -

Gym Leader Devil said:
Chantara said:
The deal is that I'm working with 10 year old technology and it's a total pain in the ass for me to load these pages. I'd buy better technology if I could afford it, but I've been out of a job for the last two years. I'm working with a 56K modem, a hardwire phone connection to the internet, and Windows XP. Since everyone was griping that I was missing their points, Quex offered to PM them to me.
Spelled out that way, it makes more sense. I still suspect that you've used that as an excuse to ignore inconvenient posts now and then, especially since that has continued even after Quex started doing the PM thing for you. I shall PM you myself when I want a reply from now on, help take some of the load off of Q and the pressure to find each individual reply off of you. Fair enough?
Fair enough. If others want to do it that way, too, it's fine with me. Just be aware that if I get 5 or 6 replies to one post, you're not going to get an immediate answer.

GLD said:
Yeah, go ahead and keep running with your posts. Might try varying the content of said posts though, and discontinuing some of your most used tactics. You already know why. Otherwise, I recommend going with Tres' letter accepting your concession.
I'll stop using my tactics if you stop using yours. And no, I don't concede because you've yet to prove me wrong.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
I quoted him once because I thought he expressed something well. Does that mean he has to come here and debate?
Why bother even attaching the name Shroudy to it if it was just a point you thought was well phrased? I didn't see you naming the "sensei" you were trying to use as evidence earlier on, so why namedrop Shroudy at all?
Out of consideration, the same way I put yin-chan's name on my sig since she created it. I didn't use the name of the sensei because I wasn't given the name of the sensei.

GLD said:
Thanks to your unusual black formatting, I had to highlight this to even know what you were replying to. That's either an accident and you should edit that, or its terribly bitchy of you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former, just to try and be a nice guy.
Yes, it was an accident. Quex had PM'd me with responses from several people and color coded them - Tres was light blue, Ryu was green, Discord was purple, etc. I thought *that* would be a pain to read, so I changed everything to default color and put their names in instead. At least, I *thought* it was default color. Sorry, my mistake.

GLD said:
Either way, having looked at the post more closely by way of highlighting, I must say that Tres didn't miss a damn thing. Which, to be quite honest, is not surprising. Tres is pretty damn good at getting the point. No, the one missing the point is you, as is the norm.
Oh - so I can't quote Shroudy, but you can speak for Tres? Funny how I'm wrong about everything in your eyes, but I'm right about everything in the eyes of other Clerith people.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
The point is that you are claiming that something is established as canon without it ever being backed up by what happened in the games/movies/novellas. IF something is made canon, it will be established as canon in the games/movie/novella FIRST and then mentioned in the book(s). If something has NOT been established as canon in the games/movies/novellas first, then I will not accept that it is canon because it's mentioned in the book.
And here is the point you're missing. The story summary summarizes WHAT HAPPENED IN THE STORY. That is, the story that was in the game. Your refusal to accept a story summary, which is again a summary describing what HAPPENED IN THE STORY, is nothing more than obstinate denial of things that are damning to your ship. Since the summary of said story is in this case summarizing things that happened IN THE GAME, it did in fact happen IN THE GAME. So your criteria is met. Where shall we move the goalpost next?
Yes, I know the summary says what happened in the story. However, the Clerith date scene is used in the summary, too - is it not? I've heard Tres say many a time that he doesn't think the Clerith date scene is canon, and neither do I. So how come that doen't make the Clerith date scene canon, but it does make the HA HW scene canon?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
I accepted Shadow surviving the death scene as canon because I thought you were saying that he appeared in the game after the optional death scene. If he only appears in the book but not in the game, then screw it. I don't buy it.
You don't buy it because if you did you'd have to buy the "open to interpretation" damning evidence laid out for you.
Yeah... that's probably why I keep saying the LTD is "open to interpretation". >_<

GLD said:
The end. And as pointed out, you clearly aren't paying attention/willfully misunderstanding things if you somehow thought Shadow could somehow die in game and then canonically survive. I begin to agree that you do not know what the hell a contradiction is.
I played FFVI back in 1998, and I only played it once. I frankly don't remember what happened to Shadow. So tell me - does the game show he survived? If the game shows he survived, then fine - I accept his survival as canon. If all you're going on is that his survival is canon because his picture's in the story summary, then no - I don't accept it.

I've been told two different things. That's why I've switched.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
What I am saying is that SE knows damn well that the LTD has been very controversial and that it's been debated strenuously since 1997. IF they are going to canonize Cloud with either girl, they will do it in full view of everyone and in beautiful graphics.
Wow, you know the exact methodology of SE and all who work there do ya? You know exactly what they would do IF they wanted to canonize Cloud with either girl?
Look who's talking. You're telling me that Cloti is canon because the HA HW scene is used in story summaries. So you people think you know SE's methodology good enough to go around saying that SE has proclaimed Cloti canon?

IMO and the opinion of many other people, SE has done no such thing.

GLD said:
Did ya ask Nojima directly? Or maybe Nomura? (if it was Nomura, don't buy it he's just trolling you )
Once again, look who's talking. Have you asked them?

GLD said:
Or, ya know, they could do exactly what they DID do WHEN they canonized it.
But they haven't canonized it. It's only canonized in your opinion.

GLD said:
Put it in a story summary and build the entire compilation (those portions that are related, that is) around the Cloti side of things, while Aerith goes back to the Lifestream where she belongs.
That's according to your interpretation only.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Their perfect opportunity was to show Cloud making out with one of the girls in AC/ACC, but they didn't do it. Instead, they left it up to speculation as to who Cloud loves.
And if they'd actually done that I'd be the first to call for the poor souls who have been debating this with obstinate, dishonest folk like yourself for so very long in a celebration. We might have to do the wave. Because if such a thing happened, even you couldn't debate it.
Isn't that what I just said? I said that something like that would confirm it. Doesn't confirmation mean it's uncontestable?

GLD said:
But such direct and visible action on-screen is NOT NECESSARY to canonize the situation.
LMAO Oh, puh-lease. Then we have to go by your opinion, eh? Because it's only possible that you're right, eh? Everyone else is wrong, and we know that because of your opinion. >_< Give me a break.

GLD said:
They showed nothing definite about Cloud's relationship with Tifa in AC/ACC
Still ignoring him going home to her in the end and raising their kids together huh?[/QUOTE]Maybe he went back there because that's where he lives?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
and they showed nothing definite about Cloud's relationship with Aerith in AC/ACC. It's up to the player to decide, and that's what they were showing on the FTOIL page.
And here I though hand-reaches and such favored Aerith and they were soul-mates. Would you pick a position already?
I do think the hand reach and such favored Aerith and that she and Cloud are soul mates. However, I recognize that that's my interpretation only, and therefore it hasn't been canonized by SE. You should try recognizing the same thing. All you've got is your interpretation.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
That's why both girls are shown with Cloud on the FTOIL page. That's why both scenes are designated as optional on the FTOIL page by showing page numbers that are meant to be included as supplementary information about each scene.
Keep ignoring how unimportant Aerith is on the FTOIL page. Keep pretending it even mentions her by name, rather than the truth of it: That its just a notation about a truly optional scene with no real relevance to the real meat and potatoes of the page.
Right. That's why SE put the Clerith date picture under the title saying that love develops between the protagonists, along with a page number over the HW scene picture saying that the HW scene has two optional versions that depend on Tifa's affection level, and over a picture of the HW scene that is in both the HA and LA versions.

Why did SE even include the Clerith date picture if it has no relevance to the title of the page? What's the point of including the Clerith date picture if SE is declaring Cloti canon? IF SE was declaring Cloti canon on that page, then why even show the Clerith scene? IF SE wanted to declare Cloti canon on that page, all they had to do with show the HW scene only (no Clerith date scene) and not mention that the HW scene has two versions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

But they didn't. Instead, they showed both pairings under a title saying that romantic love develops between the protagonists, and said that both pairings are optional. That obviously means it's up to interpretation. You're the one in denial - not me.

GLD said:
Keep ignoring the facts of the page entirely, how it is (in Ryu's well chosen wording) version agnostic as to what the summary says happens, totally independent of the deviation you so love to harp on.
Why namedrop Ryu's name if he said it? :P

Point is, that's what you THINK the summary says. Not everyone agrees with you. SE should be the one giving the result of the LT, not you.

GLD said:
The FTOIL page does not designate either couple as canon. It's saying that the game makes it possible to interpret either couple as canon on an optional basis. That's why Cloud is the only protagonist shown with two different women.
But... it DOES NOT SAY THAT. I am looking at the page right now. It does not say anything similar to what you claim it says. Why do you keep saying this? Do you honestly believe what you're saying?[/QUOTE]Yes, I do believe that's what it's saying, and I think you guys have it all wrong. Many people agree with me. Many people agree with you.

Oh, gee - that must mean we disagree, and SE left it up to the player! What a shock!

GLD said:
Chantara said:
IF SE wanted to make Cloti canon
Which they obviously DID want, since they HAVE made it so,
They've only "made it so" in your opinion - nothing more. I don't buy it, and neither do many other people.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
there would be no picture of the CloudxAerith date under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists of each game. The title obviously applies to the CloudxAerith date scene, too.
How is that obvious, when Aerith is not even bloody well mentioned on the page in question? She is pictured in a notation about the date scene. Read the WORDS under that picture. I know the pretty picture of Aerith is distracting you, but give it a shot. She is not the focus there. She is not even mentioned. TIFA, on the other hand, IS focused on, explicitly tied romantically to Cloud in something that DOES NOT DESCRIBE ANYTHING TIED TO HER AND CLOUD AS OPTIONAL.
1) Aerith is mentioned by putting her picture on the page with Cloud. 2) It says the HW scene is optional by putting "page 232" at the top of the picture, which means the information on that page is included.

Why put CloudxAerith on the page if it's not part of what the FTOIL page is talking about?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
And the FFVII UO and U20 also say that the Highwind scene has two optional versions, and that which one you get depends on Tifa's affection level with Cloud. Then we have Nomura saying that he doesn't know and doesn't care if Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC/ACC, which also means it's up to player interpretation. So I have three sources saying that it's up to interpretation, too. If three sources are enough to prove your point, then three sources are enough to prove my point.
This entire paragraph is using things that are not from the games/movies/novellas. By your own criteria, they are not suitable as evidence. Change your position or gtfo But jokes aside, pick a position. Are creator interviews and ultimanias allowed or not? Others have said it and let my voice join theirs, WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS FLIP FLOPPING ANYMORE.
Sometimes I think Clerith and Cloti people speak different languages or something. >_<

I said my three sources were equivalent to your three sources. I still think that. Both points are as good and as backed up by facts as the other. I do not think my three sources confirmed Clerith, and I do not think your three sources confirmed Cloti.

What I said about games/movies/novellas is that I want to see the couple confirmed in the games/movies/novellas before I consider it canon. I stick by that. I do not think the games/movies/novellas have confirmed either couple.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Actually, no I haven't - this is the first time I've been told that. I'm beginning to think you've got me confused with someone else, especially since we always got along just fine before I came here.
Its been said multiple times in this very thread. If you have limitations that caused you to miss it, then that sucks for you. Though I am almost certain that it was said in direct replies to you at least once, so unless I am wrong that excuse is out too.
No, it hasn't been mentioned in direct replies to me before this. And why are you answering for Tres?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
At any rate, there must be some indication that "your room" is what she means, since it's always translated that way.
The English language, however, kinda needs possessives to work properly. It is a very different language than Japanese. Now, I am no translator, but I do understand at least that much, the two languages are very different.
Yes, I understand that the two languages are very different. However, Tres said that it could have been translated as "Drink in another room", which does NOT use a possessive. So why is it *always* translated as "Drink in your room" if it can also be translated as "Drink in another room"? There must be a reason.

GLD said:
At any rate, you are failing utterly to do what was asked of you. Show us Tifa's room, if they have separate sleeping quarters. Explain why Cloud has so little bedroom-y stuff in his room if it is indeed his personal quarters. Make a concrete point about how this would even remotely be a sign that Cloti CANNOT be canon even if you WERE RIGHT.
Tifa's room isn't shown, and neither is a "master" bedroom. The only bed we see is in Cloud's office, and it's a single bed, so Tifa doesn't sleep there. That's the only room we see that we know Cloud uses, and it has a single bed.

Now - have we seen that Tifa has a separate room? No. But we haven't seen anything of a "master bedroom" either, where they both sleep. So how do you know that a "master bedroom" exists? Or are you just assuming it?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Yes, but as I pointed out to Ryu last night, Tifa says the bit about "drink in your room" AFTER Cloud's room is called his office in the story. So apparently, Tifa thinks of it as Cloud's room if that's what she calls it.
Lemme try a different tactic. What is an office, exactly? Oh yes, it is a room. It is Cloud's office. An office is a room. Ergo, Cloud's office would indeed be Cloud's room. Just not his bedroom. Is that overly complex enough for you Anastar?
No, it's not. However, you're making the same point that I've been making.

Since we know it's Cloud's room and it has a bed, then why isn't it possible that Cloud sleeps there? Do you have any proof that he doesn't sleep there? Or are you just making an assumption?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
And yes, that's presuming that there's some indication that it's the room where he sleeps.
There is no such indication to be had. Stop presuming, it isn't working out for you.
And there's no indication that he doesn't sleep there. So you're presuming every bit as much as I am.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Even if there is no indication in the story that Cloud's office is actually where he sleeps,
There is no if here. There IS NO INDICATION in the story that Cloud's office is where he sleeps. The story indicates that it is an office. End of.
And there is no indication that he doesn't sleep there, and there's no indication of there being a "master bedroom". So why are you assuming there is one?

GLD said:
Chantara said:
there's no confirmation that he has a bedroom with Tifa, either. Rude and Reno carry Cloud and Tifa back to the kids' bedroom after they fall unconscious in the Church. Why didn't Rude and Reno take them back to their own bedroom IF they have one?
Why would we assume the Turks know the layout of the place by heart, and didn't just dump them in the first room they came to that had space for two unconscious bodies?
Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies. Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Why do we never see a bedroom in the Seventh Heaven with anything but a single bed? Why did SE show a bed in Cloud's office if that's not where he sleeps? Why does Tifa go to that room after Cloud disappears to look at his belongings? Wouldn't he keep any in their bedroom IF they had one?
No scenes in the film took place in Cloud and Tifa's bedroom. Or, if they have separate quarters for some reason, in Tifa's room for that matter.
Point made. If we haven't seen a "master bedroom", then it hasn't been confirmed that one exists. So you are merely making an assumption that one exists.

The ONLY confirmation is that there is a single bed in Cloud's room. Therefore, we know that Cloud could sleep there. Prove that he doesn't.

GLD said:
But as has been pointed out, there are no scenes of anyone on the toilet either. Yet we can be fairly certain there is one.
Fairly certain is different from absolutely certain. Fairly certain isn't good enough to confirm anything. I'm fairly certain that there's a room for Barret when he comes back to visit, but do we know that for certain?

GLD said:
As for her going to look at his belongings, I will let others comment on that since I am not entirely certain what you are talking about. I recall her going to answer the phone in AC/C, which makes perfect sense being that it is AN OFFICE.
I have a phone in my bedroom, too, and there's one in the guest bedroom, and there's one in the kitchen, and there's one in the living room. Phones aren't located in just one type of room, so that doesn't mean it's his office only.

GLD said:
If you're talking CoT, I may need to re-read that and refresh my memory of whatever passage you refer to here.
No, I'm talking about AC/ACC. This scene:

Friend%20FamilyPic1.jpg


GLD said:
There's absolutely no confirmation that Cloud and Tifa have a bedroom together, yet that's what you want to assume. The only thing shown for sure is a single bed in Cloud's room.
You still ignore that there is not, in fact, a bed in Cloud's office. It's a cot. A COT. If he slept there all the time, why wouldn't he have a REAL bed?
Looks exactly like the bed I had in my dorm room in college.

GLD said:
Why do you still ignore the complete lack of any other bedroom furnishings? A dresser or a closet? An alarm clock or night stand? ANYTHING that would go in a bedroom. You assume Cloud sleeps there, but aside from the presence of a "bed" you cannot support that at all. Again, even without more solid evidence logical reasoning would suggest that it is not his room.
In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like. In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

It's from page 7 of this series of ACC pics by Kaldea: http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/
Here's the second album of ACC screens by Kaldea: http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/ACCScreens2/
Here's the third album of ACC screens by Kaldea: http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu329/ACCScreens3/

Oh, and sorry for mentioning Kaldea's name. I just think it's considerate to give credit to the person who took all the pics. I hope this doesn't mean she has to come debate now. <_<


GLD said:
Chantara said:
Look at what I've highlighted. If the word "koibito" on its own does not indicate that a relationship has been established, then why do you think its use in RF means that Tifa is in a relationship?
They didn't say relationship. Honestly, do you really just randomly skip words or sentences when you read these posts? It was said that Tifa IS SOMEONE'S KOIBITO.
And if Tifa is someone's koibito, then she's in a relationship.

And once again - why are you answering for Tres? I think he's capable of it.

GLD said:
I, taking Quex's advice, looked that word up myself. It clearly shows that she is desired by someone in a romantic light, to spell out the definition. Similarly in COLSW, Aerith describes Cloud as HER koibitio, meaning SHE desires HIM. So, Aerith wants Cloud, and someone wants Tifa. In Tifa's case, the person who desires her isn't spoon fed to us. But we still bloody well know the only person in the story such a statement makes sense for.
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Johnny wants Tifa, too. :P For that matter, Barret's obviously pretty fond of Tifa, too.

At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.

GLD said:
And since we KNOW Tifa loves him back, a fact that really should not be up for debate considering that little tidbit IS spoon fed to us many times, that'd make it mutual and heavily support a relationship.
Trouble is, we haven't been spoon-fed anything that tells us that Cloud loves Tifa, except on an optional basis. Same thing exists with Aerith. So both are optional.

GLD said:
Spelled out enough for ya? I could go on if you need.
No.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
Okay, but the point is that the sentence does not say that Tifa's in a relationship with Cloud. It would have to identify Tifa as "Cloud's koibito" in order to establish that relationship, but it doesn't.
See above. Also, derp.
See above. Also, derp.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
BTW, Cloud calls Tifa "my nakama" in Diss 012. Funny he would call her that instead of "my kobito" if she's really his koibito.
There are those double standards again. Is Dissidia an official part of the Compilation now and no one told me? Make up your mind, Anastar. Are non-compilation entries available as evidence or not?
Have I ever said we can't use non-Compilation evidence? I remember telling Tres to stop using Shadow as evidence for how the HA HW scene is canon, but as long as a game has Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in it - why not? That's a very different thing.

GLD said:
And you can be nakama AND a lover, ya know. They are not mutually exclusive states of being.
Funny how Cloti's are the only people who say that.

GLD said:
Chantara said:
And it doesn't mean that you're right, either.
So, are you denying evolution now? It'd be in character for you to deny something with overwhelming factual evidence, but I though even you would be able to accept SOME blindingly obvious things.
Show me where I denied evolution. <_< No, I said that the fact that some things are right and some are wrong doesn't prove that you're the one who's right.

I swear I need a translator for everything I say here. <_< I've never felt that way on other forums.

========
That's all for tonight.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I'll let GLD get the bulk of this, but

Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies. Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.

You've never actually WATCHED the movie, then?
Because Marlene's been Kidnapped and Denzel left with the SHM by this point.

The ONLY confirmation is that there is a single bed in Cloud's room. Therefore, we know that Cloud could sleep there. Prove that he doesn't.

You owe me a million dollars. Prove you don't

In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like. In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

It's amazing you can see ALL those things. Since apart from the tire, the photos on the wall, and the boxes, those things are not in the shot.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I do see the mirror, but where the hell is the T.V.? O_o Sorry that's a one liner, but I'm seriously curious. XD

By 'Mirror,' do you mean the light rectangle to the right of Tifa? That's another window.
Otherwise, what specifically are you referencing?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Somehow, you guys think that one person can easily dash off responses to like six(?) different people in an hour or something.
No one is thinking this, and no one is saying this. If you have to spend time making replies to everyone to post, go ahead and do so. Don't think you have to rush just because a lot of people replied to you.

@ Cloud's room
I feel bad for Cloud if that's all he has to live in when the kids get comfortable beds, dressers, bookshelves, curtains... LIGHTS FFS!


... okay yeah I don't REALLY feel bad, in fact, I'm amused :monster:
But still... they should give Cloud more if that's really all he has. Where does he keep his clothes or go when he wants to work in the dark? On the other hand if he's sleeping with that tire, it proves my signature is true :awesome:

Cloud X Fenrir is canon bitches :D
 
Last edited:

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
That's another window.

Ohh thought it was a mirror at first reflecting the other side of the room. XD But then that doesn't make sense because the other side of the room doesn't lead outside and blah blah I just didn't look at it close enough, lol. The thing below it kinda looks like a safe. O_o Maybe Cloud keeps Marlene's school money in there. :awesome: Actually I think it might be something to adjust the air with? (since there's a vent right underneath whatever that 'button' and 'dial' are for?) But yeah totes not seeing a TV. xD
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Gym Leader DevilI have other responses to answer in my Inbox, but I am not going to stay up all night answering everybody. :P Somehow, you guys think that one person can easily dash off responses to like six(?) different people in an hour or something.

Back at GameFaqs in like 1998, we paired one Cloti person up with one Clerith person, and those two debated one another. It made it a helluva lot easier than trying to answer everyone.

Of course, there were many more Clerith people available to debate at that time, but everybody answering and expecting a response is ridiculous, IMO.

At any rate, I just picked one to answer tonight, and it's you -

Its easy to get swamped, I agree. I'll just run with your response to me for now since I got the honor.

Fair enough. If others want to do it that way, too, it's fine with me. Just be aware that if I get 5 or 6 replies to one post, you're not going to get an immediate answer.

Seems reasonable.

I'll stop using my tactics if you stop using yours. And no, I don't concede because you've yet to prove me wrong.

As always, your inability to accept proof does not in fact change the fact that it is indeed proof.

Out of consideration, the same way I put yin-chan's name on my sig since she created it. I didn't use the name of the sensei because I wasn't given the name of the sensei.

Fair enough. If not for all the repetitions of this and calling out of me when I similarly give folk their due credit, I think we'd be in perfect agreement for once.

Yes, it was an accident. Quex had PM'd me with responses from several people and color coded them - Tres was light blue, Ryu was green, Discord was purple, etc. I thought *that* would be a pain to read, so I changed everything to default color and put their names in instead. At least, I *thought* it was default color. Sorry, my mistake.

Accidents happen, seems your heart was in the right place at least. This is why I just remove all color formatting tags from quotes, thus leaving them in my customary shade of kick-ass red :monster:

Oh - so I can't quote Shroudy, but you can speak for Tres? Funny how I'm wrong about everything in your eyes, but I'm right about everything in the eyes of other Clerith people.

I don't claim to speak for Tres. Speculate on what he meant, yes, and I am overly pleased when I turn out to be correct, but I do try to avoid putting words in his mouth.

As for these many other "Clerith people," I don't see any reason to give their opinion or any evidence they might gather any weight simply because you mention their existence. I'll judge their agreement with you on its own merits, should they choose to come in sometime and throw their two cents into the thread.

Yes, I know the summary says what happened in the story.

Ok, I almost feel like we're close to a breakthrough here...

However, the Clerith date scene is used in the summary, too - is it not? I've heard Tres say many a time that he doesn't think the Clerith date scene is canon, and neither do I. So how come that doen't make the Clerith date scene canon, but it does make the HA HW scene canon?

Nope, spoke too soon. The Clerith date scene is NOT USED IN THE SUMMARY. True, they used a picture of Aerith's date for the blurb about the date. But, if you read the text that goes along with said picture, it could just as easily and sensibly been Barret or Yuffie in that picture. I repeat, going with that text the picture of Barret's date would have fit in every bit as well. It is part of the summary in as much as the date was part of the story being summarized, but no one is mentioned by name and it actually is what you claim the HW scene is: entirely optional. THAT is why the page in question does not canonize the date, it doesn't canonize ANY one date.

The HW scene, as has been explained repeatedly, is another matter entirely.

Yeah... that's probably why I keep saying the LTD is "open to interpretation". >_<

For reference, the above was said in reference to ME saying "You don't buy it because if you did you'd have to buy the "open to interpretation" damning evidence laid out for you."

So, I know you didn't mean that the way it seemed. Cause it seems like you just admitted you only say the LTD is open to interpretation because otherwise you'd have to accept Cloti as canon.

I played FFVI back in 1998, and I only played it once. I frankly don't remember what happened to Shadow. So tell me - does the game show he survived? If the game shows he survived, then fine - I accept his survival as canon. If all you're going on is that his survival is canon because his picture's in the story summary, then no - I don't accept it.

The game follows either his life or death to its logical conclusion. Divergences like that are a case of what CAN HAPPEN. But again, the story summary tells us WHAT DID HAPPEN. In this case, in FFVI Shadow COULD potentially die, but the story summary tells us he DID live.

The HW scene works the same way.

I've been told two different things. That's why I've switched.

I don't remember anyone here claiming Shadow both died and later appeared in the same playthrough of the game. If I'm wrong (which I am very sure I am not), I apologize, but I really haven't seen that being claimed here. Probably because such a claim is both entirely wrong and would be nuts anyway. No one told you two different things on that topic, if you saw it differently somehow that's a different matter.

Look who's talking. You're telling me that Cloti is canon because the HA HW scene is used in story summaries. So you people think you know SE's methodology good enough to go around saying that SE has proclaimed Cloti canon?

Ok, let me put it this way: we are commenting on something SE has actually done. A tangible, easily seen action on their part. We are describing what it means, with a great many forms of evidence to show that we are correct.

You are saying that IF they wanted to do something they've already done, they'd do it in a very specific way. You are entirely unable to support your conclusion that THIS is how they'd do such and such with anything at all, only make guesses. So no, your "look who's talking" does not apply.

IMO and the opinion of many other people, SE has done no such thing.

That's nice. Say hi to these many other people for me, would ya? They may be dead wrong, but I'm sure they're decent people :monster:

Once again, look who's talking. Have you asked them?

No, but unlike your blatant guessing disguised as a certainty that kicked off this mess of "look who's talking's," I can look at what they actually did with the Ultimanias and so on and see their actions. There is just a BIT of a difference between that and what you're going on about.

But they haven't canonized it. It's only canonized in your opinion.

Call it opinion all you like. You are still unable to give any credible evidence to disprove the conclusion I have come to. There is a whole lot more than simple opinion backing this up, whether you acknowledge this or not.

That's according to your interpretation only.

Yeah, I see why the words "opinion" and "interpretation" can so easily get under people's skin. Now, you can technically call my "interpretation" of the Compilation off, I suppose, with regards to its romantic portions being built entirely about Cloti.

You cannot say the same of the story summary, written by the creators, as a summary of what happened within the story. Well that you can do, but it makes you look rather foolish when you do.

Isn't that what I just said? I said that something like that would confirm it. Doesn't confirmation mean it's uncontestable?

I think you missed the implied "we'd celebrate because, unless you deny (insert body of Cloti evidence here) like a loon, such a face-sucking session would be between Cloud and Tifa" part of my post. That's kinda where the humor value of it came in.

It was implied rather than directly said because that part was irrelevant to my point. The point being that you can say "this was the perfect opportunity to canonize a pairing with an on screen makeout session" all you like, and it doesn't matter. Sure, it'd kick ass in its own way if they did such a thing, but it isn't NEEDED for us to know how events played out.

LMAO Oh, puh-lease. Then we have to go by your opinion, eh? Because it's only possible that you're right, eh? Everyone else is wrong, and we know that because of your opinion. >_< Give me a break.

Well, not EVERYONE else is wrong. Just the people who are twisting the evidence, ignoring the evidence, and making up nonsense and calling it "evidence" against the real evidence, all in order to call fact by the name opinion. So no, you give me a break and give the reading for comprehension thing a try. Embrace parsimony, as Ryu loves to say (because he's right).

Maybe he went back there because that's where he lives?

Oh and here I thought he'd left to live in the church to be closer to the memory of his dearly departed Aerith? /sarcasm Good to see you're not supporting that notion then.

And yes, he went back because he lives there. WITH HIS FAMILY.

I do think the hand reach and such favored Aerith and that she and Cloud are soul mates. However, I recognize that that's my interpretation only, and therefore it hasn't been canonized by SE. You should try recognizing the same thing. All you've got is your interpretation.

Good to see you recognize your interpretation to be nothing more than that. Intellectually I was already aware of that, but some of what you say makes it difficult to believe its not just a fall-back option for you.

And ok, I just tried to recognize that Cloti having been validated many times over, notably as part of a summary of events in the story. I tried oh so hard... but then I looked at the facts again and just couldn't do it because it HAS BEEN.

Right. That's why SE put the Clerith date picture under the title saying that love develops between the protagonists, along with a page number over the HW scene picture saying that the HW scene has two optional versions that depend on Tifa's affection level, and over a picture of the HW scene that is in both the HA and LA versions.

The Clerith picture is, as explained already, meaningless as shipping evidence due to the text that goes with it. Said text would be just as appropriate if it was a picture of Barret, and the fact that they used a picture from a non-joke date changes nothing about that. The SEPARATE PAGE noting the existence of a Deviation while not validating optionality of events within the narrative AT ALL also fails to mean what you want it to.

Why did SE even include the Clerith date picture if it has no relevance to the title of the page? What's the point of including the Clerith date picture if SE is declaring Cloti canon?

Let it go. I love Aerith and am glad they used her picture just for that, but it doesn't have a shred of relevance. If you MUST have some reason for why they used that one, remember that Yuffie and Barret are joke dates of a sort and Tifa is getting pride of place in the ACTUAL FTOIL ARTICLE. That leaves Aerith's date for the image used above the passage discussing the date scene. A passage that, again, does not so much as mention Aerith's name, nor anything else aside from the date being one of the things that is under player control. And yes, again, there is a notation of an optional deviation of the HW scene too. And unlike the date (this is the important part) THE OPTIONALITY IS NOT STRESSED IN ANY OF THE PASSAGES CONCERNING IT. It is, indeed, version agnostic as to what happened in the story. The events of the story which are told to us in the story summary.

THAT IS HOW CANON WORKS, OK?

IF SE was declaring Cloti canon on that page, then why even show the Clerith scene? IF SE wanted to declare Cloti canon on that page, all they had to do with show the HW scene only (no Clerith date scene) and not mention that the HW scene has two versions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

I seem to have addressed this already, along with the previous paragraph. I'll just use the opportunity to reiterate that it doesn't matter if it was done how you would like it to be done, it was still done.

But they didn't. Instead, they showed both pairings under a title saying that romantic love develops between the protagonists, and said that both pairings are optional. That obviously means it's up to interpretation. You're the one in denial - not me.

They did not say that both pairings were optional, which is good since in the greater context of things such a statement makes no fucking sense. You continue, over and over again within a SINGLE POST to attribute meaning to a picture that is not borne out by the text that accompanies said image. Or, for that matter, the text anywhere else on that page or any other.

Why namedrop Ryu's name if he said it? :P

And here we go, digging at me for asking an honest question rather than just provide an honest answer. I put down Ryu's name for the same reason you gave to MY question, credit where it is due. While I am obviously not against a little heat and sarcasm in the course of a debate (it makes it fun rather than boring and academic in nature imo), this just seems silly. Still, you're welcome to it if it improves your enjoyment levels :monster:

Point is, that's what you THINK the summary says. Not everyone agrees with you. SE should be the one giving the result of the LT, not you.

I know it is what the summary says because I read the bloody summary. Said summary gave the result of the LT. Your failure, intentional or otherwise, to comprehend simple written words on a page does not change this fact.

Yes, I do believe that's what it's saying, and I think you guys have it all wrong. Many people agree with me. Many people agree with you.

You and the "many people" you refer to who actually believe what you say on this matter are wrong. I honestly don't know how to make it any more clear what the truth is, but since I hardly expected to actually change your mind I suppose it matters little.

Oh, gee - that must mean we disagree, and SE left it up to the player! What a shock!

The italicized portion of the above sentence is true, and a good example for you of what "obvious" actually means. The bolded section is an unfounded and incorrect statement that does not in any way flow from the true part of said sentence and really belongs on its own.

They've only "made it so" in your opinion - nothing more. I don't buy it, and neither do many other people.

Unless they are among those here on TLS, can we leave the "many people" out of this? I don't speak for anyone else here, but to me their opinion and any evidence they might offer hold no weight whatsoever until I have heard from them myself. Their support of your position is entirely irrelevant until they actually come in and give it themselves. Not that it will hold much more IF THEY DO, as an appeal to numbers =/= factual evidence gathered from the Compilation, its sourcebooks, and creator statements. The very things, again, that change my so called "opinion" into a well reasoned argument for the canonicity of Cloti.

1) Aerith is mentioned by putting her picture on the page with Cloud.

This is not a mention, it is a picture. Read the words and show me where she is mentioned.

2) It says the HW scene is optional by putting "page 232" at the top of the picture, which means the information on that page is included.

No matter how much you want it to, Annie, it does not say the HW scene is optional. You don't get to choose which deviation happened, or say neither happened. That is SE's job, and they made the text version agnostic in these mentions you yourself are citing for a reason. If you twist this much more, its gonna break off.

Why put CloudxAerith on the page if it's not part of what the FTOIL page is talking about?

Lovely repetition of the exact same question you've already asked at least twice in the same post. It does not merit another repetition of the answer.

Sometimes I think Clerith and Cloti people speak different languages or something. >_<

Nah, CR for instance seems to speak perfectly plain English and understand my own perfectly plain English. You only make it a "different language" through willful misunderstanding and twisting of what is said, both by the opposition you face here in the debate thrad and (much more commonly) that of the creators (post translation of course).

I said my three sources were equivalent to your three sources. I still think that. Both points are as good and as backed up by facts as the other. I do not think my three sources confirmed Clerith, and I do not think your three sources confirmed Cloti.

And I don't care if you "think" the sources you are provided as confirming Cloti or not. Good on ya for being wise enough to know there are no sources confirming Clerith, it's just another short step to admitting the rest of the truth on the matter. Your sources were not equivalent. They why of it has been explained, and I cba to post those explanations again. You'll get to them when you can, no rush.

What I said about games/movies/novellas is that I want to see the couple confirmed in the games/movies/novellas before I consider it canon.

The story summary I been going on about was a summary of the game's story. Thus it was confirmed in the game, deviation of the scene or no. Your only recourse in avoiding this has been to laughably claim that a story summary of said game is somehow not good enough.

In essence, you will never consider Cloti canon. Lucky for me, this does not change the fact that it is.

I stick by that. I do not think the games/movies/novellas have confirmed either couple.

And if the debate hinged upon your thoughts alone, that'd mean something.

No, it hasn't been mentioned in direct replies to me before this.

My bad then.

And why are you answering for Tres?

Speculating on his thoughts because he is awesome as fuck and I hope my mental processes match his. Not answering for. Why are you speaking for "many people" who aren't even present?

Yes, I understand that the two languages are very different. However, Tres said that it could have been translated as "Drink in another room", which does NOT use a possessive. So why is it *always* translated as "Drink in your room" if it can also be translated as "Drink in another room"? There must be a reason.

I'm not qualified to answer this question any more completely than I have. In point of fact, aside from the very fact that the two languages ARE highly different I cannot be sure I am correct in any way on this matter. My apologies, I really should have just trimmed that bit out of my response last time. I'll leave this for those who know what they're talking about from here.

Tifa's room isn't shown, and neither is a "master" bedroom. The only bed we see is in Cloud's office, and it's a single bed, so Tifa doesn't sleep there. That's the only room we see that we know Cloud uses, and it has a single bed.

Cot. It's a fucking cot. I have slept on cots a great many times in my life, I know one when I see one. Unless Cloud loves him some back aches, I am certain he don't sleep there.

And, might I point out, WERE it a twin bed, Cloud and Tifa could share it. I've lived with not but a twin bed while living with girls I was romantically linked to, and Tifa takes up much less space than some of them did. So even if you somehow proved that Cloud DOES sleep there, you'd be unable to prove that Tifa DOESN'T.

Also, that is not the only room we see that Cloud uses. From CoT, we know he makes use of the main bar itself. Otherwise we'd have no quote telling him "go drink in his office/elsewhere" for you to harp on in the first place :monster:

Now - have we seen that Tifa has a separate room? No. But we haven't seen anything of a "master bedroom" either, where they both sleep. So how do you know that a "master bedroom" exists? Or are you just assuming it?

Well, Tifa's gotta sleep somewhere, with or without Cloud to help her drift off :monster: Certain events in CoT would lead one to believe that WHEREVER she sleeps, Cloud is there with her. Other than that, since I have not seen a bedroom that can be definitively be called "Tifa's" I suppose I am assuming on the matter. This does not alter the fact that you are making assumptions about the sleeping arrangements yourself, and that yours are rather less logical.

No, it's not.

Duly noted then. Things must be needlessly complex to satisfy you.

However, you're making the same point that I've been making.

Wait... I don't... but that's... what? Really, how in the bloody hell do you get the idea that I am making the same point as you here?

Since we know it's Cloud's room and it has a bed, then why isn't it possible that Cloud sleeps there? Do you have any proof that he doesn't sleep there? Or are you just making an assumption?

For this to be the same point, it'd require a bit of editing. Lemme see here... there we go: "Since we know it's Cloud's office, and an office is a type of room, and it has a COT in it, then why is it even remotely likely that he'd be sleeping there?"

Now its my point. It is not the same as yours. Please don't try to twist my points until they are shaped like yours.

And there's no indication that he doesn't sleep there. So you're presuming every bit as much as I am.

Know what I got out of that? An admission that you are presumptuous in declaring that Cloud sleeps on a cot. Good on ya for that.

And there is no indication that he doesn't sleep there, and there's no indication of there being a "master bedroom". So why are you assuming there is one?

If for no other reason, because him sleeping on a shitty little cot in a room with no creature comforts that would befit a bedroom doesn't gel well with my knowledge of how things work, nor does it gel with what we know of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Were you not deeply in denial concerning said knowledge of CloudXTifa's relationship, I'm sure you'd see it similarly.

Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies.

Ask who?

Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.

You are mistaken. VERY mistaken. Marlene has been kidnapped by the SHM at that point. Denzel has gone with them willingly. They are at the Forgotten Capital. They are NOT AT 7th Heaven for the Turks to ask. Try again.

Point made. If we haven't seen a "master bedroom", then it hasn't been confirmed that one exists. So you are merely making an assumption that one exists.

And the bathroom example still fits. In this particular case, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ergo, I could be wrong, and so could you. My assumption at least fits with the other information we have, and keeps Tifa from being a creepy psycho stalker. Sadly, you cannot say the same. Or, as usual, you CAN say it... it'll just be false.

The ONLY confirmation is that there is a single bed in Cloud's room. Therefore, we know that Cloud could sleep there. Prove that he doesn't.

Cot, not bed. That, again, is pretty good evidence that he doesn't, though not, I admit, definitive. Now... prove that he does. And when you manage that (bwahaha), prove that him sleeping apart from Tifa would invalidate Cloti.

Fairly certain is different from absolutely certain. Fairly certain isn't good enough to confirm anything. I'm fairly certain that there's a room for Barret when he comes back to visit, but do we know that for certain?

I'm fairly certain that if Barret comes back to visit, it means he doesn't live there :monster: So thanks for that. I'm also fairly certain that such visits are one of the reasons there is a fucking cot in Cloud's office, just as there is a sleeping space set aside in a great many people's home office space. Lastly, I am fairly certain this is irrelevant until you manage to follow the instructions in my last paragraph.

I have a phone in my bedroom, too, and there's one in the guest bedroom, and there's one in the kitchen, and there's one in the living room. Phones aren't located in just one type of room, so that doesn't mean it's his office only.

Since the downstairs phone didn't ring, it seems to me Cloud's delivery service has its own line that probably only runs into his office. Which again, makes perfect sense.

No, I'm talking about AC/ACC. This scene:

Friend%20FamilyPic1.jpg


Looks exactly like the bed I had in my dorm room in college.

Wow, I am so glad I didn't go to your college. They gave us beds. That is a cot. Once again, I have slept on a cot many times, in hospitals, deer camps, etc. I know a cot when I see one.

In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like.

Maybe he is, maybe he's not. That has no bearing on the near total lack OF furnishings. There has to actually be something in there for him to care what its like.

In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:

Ok, I admit that still images give a better look at the place than the movie does. But... overstuffed chair? TV? A chest of drawers? Where the hell do you see any of this? I see the tire, some photos, what might be a mirror, I'll give you that. I also see what looks like boxes of bar supplies identical to what can be seen on the bar and at the bottom of the stairs. This... really doesn't sound like bedroom furnishings.

It's from page 7 of this series of ACC pics by Kaldea:

(links removed to reduce the wall o text effect)

Oh, and sorry for mentioning Kaldea's name. I just think it's considerate to give credit to the person who took all the pics. I hope this doesn't mean she has to come debate now. <_<

Annnnnd there is another needless dig at me. Thanks for that :monster:

And if Tifa is someone's koibito, then she's in a relationship.

Again, not necessarily. She can be desired by someone without ever even knowing it. Context tells us who desires her, and said context also shows them to be together. This isn't that hard.

And once again - why are you answering for Tres? I think he's capable of it.

100% agreed. Tres has been doing this far longer than I, he's more capable than I am honestly. But really now, I'll respond to things said in open thread if I like, aimed at me or no. If my speculation on what Tres means is wrong or even just poorly phrased, I have faith that he will say so.

Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Johnny wants Tifa, too.

I once pretended to be a Clerith for the lulz. I won't say where. I decided to portray myself as the most batshit Pinker I could manage. The quote above this paragraph is what I came up with :monster:

Ok, more serious now. Johnny is not in AC/C, which is what the quote calling Tifa someone's koibito is in reference to. Further, by your own logic pertaining to the LS sequence, its pretty clear Johnny WANTED Tifa at one time. There is no indication he still does at this time.

:P For that matter, Barret's obviously pretty fond of Tifa, too.

No arguments here, Barret is quite fond of Tifa. I think nakama would suit them as a descriptive word just fine. Koibito, not so much. Show me even the slightest sign that Barret has romantic feelings for Tifa. Anything at all. Nothing? Then koibito does not belong in a discussion of Tifa and Barret.

Look, go out on a limb to try and twist that all you want. The only person that makes sense, in terms of Tifa being referred to as someone's koibito, is Cloud. And since the LTD is about Cloud's feelings, that's pretty damning to your case.

At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.

I am NOT getting into a fight about koibito. I've heard bad things about the times such have broken out in the past. Not worth the effort. I will say that given the context, Tifa being a koibito WOULD make sense if translated as "girlfriend." And given the same context, describing Cloud as Aerith's
(forgive me, "the woman's") boyfriend most assuredly does not.

Trouble is, we haven't been spoon-fed anything that tells us that Cloud loves Tifa, except on an optional basis. Same thing exists with Aerith. So both are optional.

Oh we been spoonfed plenty that tells us just that. You just won't open up and accept it because SE isn't doing the right variation of "Vrooom! Here comes the plane!" for you. So, the info being fed to you is running down your chin as we speak. To continue using the spoon-feeding analogy, you need a bib.

TL;DR, it ain't optional.


Too bad. Further spelling out will be required everyone.

See above. Also, derp.

I applaud you for returning my derp to me, no matter how less appropriate it was when you did it. Isn't this fun? :awesome:

Have I ever said we can't use non-Compilation evidence?

Sure as shit seemed like ya did.

I remember telling Tres to stop using Shadow as evidence for how the HA HW scene is canon, but as long as a game has Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in it - why not? That's a very different thing.

Ahhhh so you DO think we can use Kingdom Hearts then? That's sad. For myself, I have standards on the matter. Compilation and official related materials (Ultimanias)/creator interviews only. FFTactics, Kingdom Hearts, etc need not apply.

Funny how Cloti's are the only people who say that.

Really? Wow shit, I'll have to tell all the folk I have known over the years who give absolutely 0 fucks about FFVII that they're apparently Cloti now.

Show me where I denied evolution. <_< No, I said that the fact that some things are right and some are wrong doesn't prove that you're the one who's right.

And ignored or twisted all the shit that does prove who is right in the process. Business as usual. I know you're not the one who brought up evolution (as an example of your wrong-headed thinking) but I see I am arguing a strawman against a strawman atm. So enough of this.

I swear I need a translator for everything I say here. <_< I've never felt that way on other forums.

I am pretty sure I understand what you're trying to say most of the time. It's still wrong and frequently disingenuous, but I grasp what you intend to convey. And no one cares what its like at other forums. We're debating here. The fact that I am not sycophantically parroting your warped and dull points back to you is a sign of the freedom to ACTUALLY DEBATE we have here.

Oh, and while I will be PMing this to you so you can see my response, I nominate Tres' post with the awesome letter addressed to you for your NEXT response. :monster: I been looking forward to seeing that.
 
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Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Maybe she's thinking that open vent up on the top left is a tv? It doesn't even look like a TV but maybe...

I'd like to know where there's an overstuffed chair. Like what in this room can even be mistaken for a chair?? The tires?

o.O
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I had intended to wait for a response to my letter about Anastar's concession before replying to anything further from her, but since she seems to need clarification on several things I've tried talking to her about prior to this, and needs several inaccuracies clarified, I'm going to respond to this -- and I will be straight-up with her while doing so. There won't be any mockery whatsoever in this post.

I'm really trying to treat you with dignity here, Anastar. Really.

Yes, I know the summary says what happened in the story. However, the Clerith date scene is used in the summary, too - is it not? I've heard Tres say many a time that he doesn't think the Clerith date scene is canon, and neither do I. So how come that doen't make the Clerith date scene canon, but it does make the HA HW scene canon?

Which story summary? The 10th AU's story summary doesn't show any of them. It just mentions Cait Sith stealing the Keystone at the Gold Saucer and giving it to Tseng.

If you mean in the U20 Scenario's story summary, the Aerith date doesn't seem to get more attention than the other three there, no:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffu20datesummary.jpg

Gold Saucer
The Keystone falls into Tseng's hands, and he heads for the Temple of the
Ancients

Cait Sith's true colors are revealed

After collecting information in various places on the key to opening the Temple of the Ancients, Cloud's team learns that it's in Dio's possession. After
successfully gaining it from him at the Gold Saucer, the party spends the night at the hotel. That night, while Cloud is on a date with one of his companions, they witness Cait Sith passing the Keystone to Tseng. He has been a Shin-Ra spy. Marlene is taken hostage; hereafter, though, Cait Sith's behavior with the party doesn't change; they chase after Shin-Ra, heading for the Temple of the Ancients.

'...So, you have to do as I say.'

[Screenshot caption of Aerith's date]
During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud.

Deviation
Who is the date companion?
Cloud's companion for the date is determined by your choices in the progress of the story. Whichever character amongst Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie and Barret has the highest value in the "affection rating" will be the one to invite Cloud out for the date; here are screenshots representing each. The course of each date is the same, but, as you can see, they each develop in their own way depending on the companion.

[Screenshot caption of Tifa's date]
Tifa tries to reveal her feelings to Cloud, but can't say it in the end.

[Screenshot caption of Yuffie's date]
Yuffie quietly moves over to Cloud and boldly kisses him on the cheek.

[Screenshot caption of Barret's date]
Barret arrives on his own at the idea that Cloud has his eye on Marlene.

The story summary just says "one of his companions" and then goes on to feature all four.

Anastar said:
Why did SE even include the Clerith date picture if it has no relevance to the title of the page? What's the point of including the Clerith date picture if SE is declaring Cloti canon? IF SE was declaring Cloti canon on that page, then why even show the Clerith scene?

IF SE wanted to declare Cloti canon on that page, all they had to do with show the HW scene only (no Clerith date scene) and not mention that the HW scene has two versions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

But they didn't. Instead, they showed both pairings under a title saying that romantic love develops between the protagonists, and said that both pairings are optional. That obviously means it's up to interpretation. You're the one in denial - not me.

There's a problem with your question and how you're approaching the entire page in that you're referring to the portion about the Gold Saucer date as "the Clerith scene" and reducing the matter to representing Clerith and Cloti. The Gold Saucer porition isn't representing Clerith -- it's representing four different scenes that can happen there, none of which involve Cloud professing romantic intentions for anyone.

In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness.

Anastar said:
Why put CloudxAerith on the page if it's not part of what the FTOIL page is talking about?

Here's an example of what I'm trying to point out. You see the date scene as a CloudxAerith scene, and that's not how it's treated in the book. It's treated as a completely amorphous scene in terms of pairings.

Anastar said:
What I said about games/movies/novellas is that I want to see the couple confirmed in the games/movies/novellas before I consider it canon.

That both is and isn't an unreasonable standard. There are a great many people who approach analysis of art in a similar fashion -- that is to say, the literary analysis method, where only the material contained in the work itself is interpreted, and any comments made outside of it by the authors/creators are not considered part of the work.

I myself prefer that approach, honestly. I believe in that approach. It provides a richer picture of the work, and is more rewarding to both the mind and soul.

However, what's being discussed in this thread -- and what the LTD has always been about -- is the official position on the matter. Canon. That being the case, extra textual material such as interview comments and Ultimanias are taken into consideration.

That's why -- despite my preference for literary analysis -- I put it aside in discussions like this to discuss canon on canon's terms. Literary analysis absolutely has a valuable place in analyzing works of art, but identifying what's canon is not the place for it. In fact, the two schools of thought are, by their nature, at odds with one another.

I encourage you to pursue that approach as much as it interests you to do so, including -- perhaps especially -- with Final Fantasy VII. However, not only is this not the time and place for it (feel free to make other threads in which to do it, though), you're not applying the literary analysis standard evenly. You're including some extra textual material (for example, interview comments from Nomura) even while you refuse to acknowledge other extra textual material (i.e. Ultimania story summaries).

Anastar said:
No, it hasn't been mentioned in direct replies to me before this. And why are you answering for Tres?

It has been, actually. I've mentioned it to you before, and not just in this thread here on TLS.

Anastar said:
Yes, I understand that the two languages are very different. However, Tres said that it could have been translated as "Drink in another room", which does NOT use a possessive. So why is it *always* translated as "Drink in your room" if it can also be translated as "Drink in another room"? There must be a reason.

Given the differences in the languages, interpretation of context often plays as significant a role as a word's closest direct meaning in English. There's a reason professional translators prefer to be called "interpreters." I'd go as far as to say that translation from Japanese to English calls more for interpretation of context than anything else, but that's neither here nor there.

The point is, despite the official English translation of Case of Tifa going with "your room," that's not necessarily correct. As mentioned, the original sentence lacked any possessive particle, so it was left to the translatior to determine what room Tifa must have been talking about.

And the translator was not perfect in all cases. This is the same translator, after all, who caused English-speaking fans to think Case of Tifa contained a continuity error by having it say that Cloud told Elmyra about Aerith's death post-Meteor (Reeve had already told her and Marlene about it during the original game). The translator even went as far as to include the statement that Cloud told her as gently as he could, which was not at all in the original Japanese sentence.

What the original Japanese said about Cloud talking to Elmyra was "hanashita," which means "talked" -- so there was never a contradiction. The original language only ever said that Cloud talked to Elmyra about Aerith's death, not that he informed her of it. Yet the translator fucked it up.

Anastar said:
Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies. Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.

Whaaa? Marlene and Denzel weren't there.

That huge discussion Cloud and Tifa have when they wake up is about going to rescue the kids.

Anastar said:
In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like. In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

There's no TV, chair, mirror or clothing trunk that I can see, hon. I'm being as polite as I can here. Those things just aren't there.

Anastar said:
Anastar said:
Look at what I've highlighted. If the word "koibito" on its own does not indicate that a relationship has been established, then why do you think its use in RF means that Tifa is in a relationship?
GLD said:
They didn't say relationship. Honestly, do you really just randomly skip words or sentences when you read these posts? It was said that Tifa IS SOMEONE'S KOIBITO.

And if Tifa is someone's koibito, then she's in a relationship.

And once again - why are you answering for Tres? I think he's capable of it.

The word does not on its own indicate a relationship, no. In the case of its usage in the Reunion Files, though, it's describing Tifa's role in the movie. Who but Cloud would then fit?

Given that we know Cloud is Tifa's koibito, if she is also his, then that would point to a relationship. Or at the least mutual feelings.

Anastar said:
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Johnny wants Tifa, too. :P

Johnny isn't in Advent Children and isn't mentioned anywhere in the Reunion Files.

Anastar said:
For that matter, Barret's obviously pretty fond of Tifa, too.

He's not obviously wanting to nail her and have a romantic life with her, though. Heck, we've never even been given an indication that he wants her sexually.

Anastar said:
At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.

"Koibito" has a specific meaning in that it identifies someone who is desired by another. That is its meaning. It can be translated (which is to say interpreted, depending on the context) as "beloved," "lover," "girlfriend"/"boyfriend" or "sweetheart," yes -- but its actual meaning remains "one who is desired by another" and any of those other words are a translator's choice for best conveying their understanding of the context.

On its own, it doesn't inherently entail reciprocity, though. Ever. Even in the case of the Reunion Files quote, reciprocity can only be said to be entailed because of Tifa's own otherwise confirmed feelings.

Anastar said:
Have I ever said we can't use non-Compilation evidence? I remember telling Tres to stop using Shadow as evidence for how the HA HW scene is canon, but as long as a game has Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in it - why not? That's a very different thing.

You sort of did:

And I find your need to constantly find evidence outside of the Compilation to prove your point ridiculous. Try using evidence from the Compilation for a change.

Anastar said:
Funny how Cloti's are the only people who say that.

You're saying one can't be both someone else's nakama and their koibito? That is a huge claim you will need to substantiate. It isn't true.

Also, Aerith is called Cloud's nakama too. Off the top of my head, I know her Reunion Files profile calls her this. Seems like her 10th AU profile and the Dissidia Ultimania's "Link to the Original" section for FFVII does too.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Just a few things.
1. I don't do the color coding thing anymore
2. I'm sorry but I'm not going to deliver that letter to Anastar. Tres, imagine if I asked you to send something like that to Mako from me. Maybe that's not the best example but I'd rather not. I was going to but... feh

If someone else wants to they can.

Point is, that's what you THINK the summary says. Not everyone agrees with you. SE should be the one giving the result of the LT, not you.
The heck? That's what it says period. It says the HA scene happened. If you want to argue that story summaries hold no bearing, that's one thing, but don't tell us that we only THINK it says the HA scene happened... cause that's what it says. That's like me saying, "I know you THINK Nomura said Cloud had undying feelings for Aerith, but people disagree."

Funny how Cloti's are the only people who say that.
I didn't know Sanji from One Piece was a Cloti :monster:

If you mean in the U20 Scenario's story summary, the Aerith date doesn't seem to get more attention than the other three there, no:
Okay but Aerith's date seems to be pictured at least in the main summary. I guess I thought that they mentioned her date in there too. But the UO and Dismantled go with her date...

Also
Can we stop expecting people to prove negatives? It's really kind of silly and if anything in this thread is dishonest, it's that. The burden is on you to prove your points, not for us to disprove them.


EDIT
Who is credited for translating CoT and the others?
 
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