Another case of squinching your eyes good and tightly shut until it goes away, as far as I can see. The sources are most definitely there.
Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.
Same difference really. Harry has been confirmed to wind up with Ginny, while Hermione is confirmed to end up with Ron. Cloud has been confirmed to end up with Tifa while Aerith winds up with Zack dead. Harry/Ginny and Cloud/Tifa even have the symmetry of living together and having kids going for them to help seal the analogy. So yeah, this works pretty well.
I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.
Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.
Cloud is shown with Tifa there. The Aerith picture is entirely irrelevant to the issue discussed on the page. She is not even mentioned by name on the page.
She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.
If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.
The description says it's optional, just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional. It isn't right in the description, but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.
Glad we at least agree that such would be trolling. You have now admitted to accusing everyone arguing the position that Cloti is canon of trolling, btw, in that you expressed a belief that we do not actually believe it. Have fun with that.
I'm not saying everyone who believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are trolls, at all. I know a few really nice people who think they're canon and I don't think they're trolls.
I've already expressed my view on why Aerith's date scene was chosen for the blurb on the page about the date mechanics. They do not bear repeating yet again. Either way, it doesn't matter why it is there. The real meat of the page, where said page relates to this LTD, is all Cloud and Tifa.
Doesn't the page also say that it's about love developing between the hero and heroine? There are two heroines in the game, and one hero, and we already know it's officially a love triangle, so it makes since that all three of them are there. If you think that page closes the LT, then Cloud must love both girls.
Still vaguely confused, since I remember this being a direct choice you made. Not something determined by affection mechanics and what-not. So unless I am mistaken about what you're referring to... what?
The time when you meet Cait Sith, one person goes with you. That person depends on the date mechanics.
When was the last time an apathetic scene led directly into the involved characters belonging together? Living as a family and raising kids together? Being able to succeed because the man has the woman in a way that is different from before?
The power of friendship *sings*
I note you did not answer my question concerning the time frame of the quote you displayed within the narrative.
But, no matter. I'll continue assuming it occurred after the HW scene. How did an apathetic and short conversation lead to him suddenly feeling he's less alone than he was again? It doesn't. Now put that quote with the HA version. Suddenly Cloud is not just fighting with his friends by his side. Now he has LOVE. I've felt alone when my friends were beside me. Someone you love is just a bit different. Ergo, the quote you tossed out does not support your position since the LA version would lead to no such thing. If anything, it fits with the HA version.
It does fit with the LA version because the next day he says to Tifa "It's all right Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."
You've already admitted Aerith is not alone here. Zack, Cloud's mom, even Jessie. Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt since she was the only one of those he had directly placed under his protection. It doesn't make her a super-special snowflake of romantic intentions.
I didn't say it did. But they put special emphasis on Cloud's feelings for Aerith, so she was a
very dear friend and different from the rest, not just a source of guilt and sadness in his life.
To name but one example and thus explain the joke, yes
I bet Nomura was the first person to jump on board for an FFX remake
This looks dismissive. Is it dismissive?
'Tis not dismissive.
He said he TRIED NOT TO when writing the story. Then gave a self-deprecating laugh that indicates he failed. As if it wasn't obvious enough what the living situation at Cloud and Tifa's place is, that's a pretty good indicator right there.
The translation I've been given is that he says "I don't want to go into my views..."
You mistake the source of my laughter. If you have something concrete that you have been sitting on for some reason, go ahead and use it please.
I don't have anything concrete that you have to agree with. I don't think my ship is canon anyway.
On the subject of quote mining, to fix means to stop. And that's all I ask on the subject. Context is important, stop excising it from your quotes and we'll all be happier.
And I said I would fix it.
Okay, people are taking that article way too seriously, lol. It's just an article. It's well written - some people here don't even agree with it, but still appreciate it. And time and time again it's been said you CAN create a Clerith based article if you want and have it front paged....why are there still complaints about this?
No, no, I know
But I did see, on another thread, a few people saying "Okay, we shoved it to them already, now can we change the name?" That's why we weren't sure if it was honestly serious or not.
But I'll take your acceptance that "I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened" as complete agreement with me and end this here.
Kidding. Maybe. A little.
I hope you are
You mean it might lead to Cloud telling Tifa he knows he can start a new life successfully this time because he has her with him in a different way than before?
No.
He doesn't say at what point he realized this, though. Certainly he must have known when Tifa and Barret stuck by him after he beat the shit out of Aerith, urging him to continue on even when he doubted himself and wanted them to leave him behind.
It's his last monologue in the book (if I remember right, it's either during or directly after the Highwind scenes.)
Tifa was always important to him.
I agree. But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.
It's not his younger self. The image of the younger Cloud is simply a representation of Cloud's subconscious -- it's not a form of him frozen in time from childhood.
Hell, the fact that it has the memories of events that happened during the Nibelheim incident (when Cloud was older than the form his subconscious took) shows that it's not.
I mean that, it's a part of his subconscious that he was forgetting, like his younger self was dredged up to help him remember those things - what really happened, how he'd felt about Tifa, Zack, everything that was missing. By "still holding", I think it means those feelings are literally being withheld by his memories, and at the end of it, he remembers - but I don't know or think it means that he just continues feeling them. I think that's up to interpretation. If he can romantically reject Tifa in the LA version, for example, and only express feelings of desire in the HA version, I think that backs it up. (I'm expecting somebody will come in and say "Oh, you mean THE CANON VERSION!?"
)
It wasn't; it was written to inform. That some folks took offense to it doesn't make it trolling.
No, I know now. It just seemed to me that from what people were saying, it was written to get people mad.
As mentioned, there are a lot more than three changable events in FF7, and if we're relating it to the things selected BY the AV mechanic, that's just two. The choice of person to run around GS with after Barret runs off AFFECTS the AV mechanic.
There are three changeable events controlled by the date mechanics. And the first changeable event is supposed to be who goes with you when you meet Cait Sith
But contrasting this, I DO know places where SW materials list deviations for the plot based on your choices in game. But this does not change that there is an official answer. Likewise, we've been showing on several occasions that the HAHW scene happened and it IS important. It's literally called one of the most important scenes in the game.
IIRC, you never did respond to me how the exile's gender affects future events.
Respond to you..? Wait, that was you before?
Woah! Hi! Your name has changed and everything.
Your picture has boobs!
The Exile's gender affects the Disciple joining your party - it can only happen if she's female.
There's no way Cloud's indifferent towards Tifa even during his headscrew period.
"Only Tifa's opinion matters." for one. Apologizing to her repeatedly for being a fake, hoping she got to meet the real Cloud he couldn't be, Tifa matters to Cloud.
Fairly indifferent, as in, he should have treated her better in certain parts. He's a lot nicer to her after, and that's just my opinion.
We do. But we also know it's referring to why Nomura did what he did in KH. It's not relevant to the FF7 narrative. Hell, apart from 'something warm' being the same as what Tifa wanted in AC, pretty much jack divided by squat of KH is relevant to an original game.
"Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer.
Sounds like a KH statement.
You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
Sounds like a KH statement.
Cloud is a popular character,
Sounds like a general statement.
and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this.
Sounds like a general statement.
Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."
Sounds like it could be both.
And I think he'd agree that KH did have some relevance to Cloud and Aerith as characters.
"Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players." -Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine
Even though he considers them separate stories, directly after he says it can also explain some of their relationship from VII itself.
But I already said I'd amend it anyway. And I forgot. Kingdom Hearts is a touchy subject
Oh good. Blanket agreement. I do so love when I get that.
That's nice. But you didn't get that from me
It's possible. But it's also possible he simply stopped sending letters once he got 'flunked' for SOLDIER, or merely only wished to send good news and the good news hadn't happened yet.
And even if Cloud never wrote, there's still six months of time to spend in each other's company BEFORE he leaves, which is what I was talking about in the first place.
Both of our thoughts are possible. Good enough for me.
Barret was merely an excuse. It was the promise that convinced even Hardass Headscrew Cloud to stay.
I think there's even a quote that says he fights for AVALANCHE just because she asks.
Ask and ye shall receive
ティファとの7年前の約束を思い出し、 つぎの作戦への協力を承諾
He recalls the promise with Tifa from 7 years ago, and consents to cooperate with future strategies. (Cloud's UO profile)
Anyways, Aerbear, there it is- he recalls the promise, and thus consents to future missions.
It didn't say that's why, just
this happened and then
this happened.
Not trying to be mean or rain on the parade or anything, I'll go with it
You're correct we don't know why he liked her. It's never been said. But Cloud had to have spoken to her before the well. Even IF ONLY to have asked her out to the well, and likely on numerous occasions before.
I'm not exactly sure where it was, but I remember a quote saying the boys gave her letters inviting her to go to the well?
Remember, Tifa had remembered that they were close, but on reflection, had to admit she guessed they weren't THAT Close. That suggests they spoke somewhat often, but not deeply, like you might expect with your neighbor, as they were.
And he thought she hated him.
And we are saying that this answer is itself a claim and should be supported by evidence or cut away with Okkam's razor as an unnecessary element. When I say embrace parsimony, I'm not just being glib. I am BEING glib, so you know, but not purely glib. I mean we should strive to ' not multiply entities beyond necessity' as William of Okkam's metaphorical razor is oft formulated as.
It's supported that it isn't just guilt by the fact that he's feeling that guilt because he
wanted to protect her. I'm saying he cared about her a lot, and it doesn't have to be in a romantic way, I understand, but that's the way some of us interpret it.
Because maybe not very good or very close friends, but they were friends.
SE has bad standards for friends...
She did. She wanted him around partly to keep an eye on him.
Tifa is stated too as well, and Cid, in the OG, notes Cloud was notably off before he went kibitz. And Cid had less time than Aerith to get to know Cloud.
And yes, she DID try and find out. But she was also having trouble doing so because Cloud knew things he should have had no way of knowing. She spends more than the entire first disc trying to find a way to figure out how to prove to Cloud he's not well without making it worse.
You said Tifa had to know him well before she met him again to know he wasn't being himself, but if Cid and Aerith noticed and hadn't even known him before the Jenova cells got to him, they made it off of observation. I think Tifa did too.
Actually, he doesn't say 'things might not work between Cloud and Tifa' ever. He merely says things aren't going well.
"
first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out."
It could go either way. With the Denzel/Marlene part, I think we talked about this once already, and he's guessing himself.
As for 'a real family' with a mother and father, well, Cloud views Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene as his family. He views the kids as his responsibility, and he views Tifa as the mother in the family they formed.
Tifa might be worried about if they're a real family. Cloud would seem to have decided they are.
He thinks of them as his family, but it doesn't say he thinks of her as a wife or something.
She was jealous of the woman who got to live together with Cloud. And she entrusted ALL of her feelings to Tifa. I mean, unless you think that doesn't include a romantic feeling or three.
I don't think she just 'handed' him over, but that she wants her to accompany him.
You've never denied it. But you've been obdurate about reading context previously.
I'll try not to.
Then why special plead for Aerith's 'dear' being notably different?
Square has made it notably different.
"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007
His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.
You did. But it needs to be stressed so you can go back to whoever gave that to you and throttle them with it.
*searches for website and throttles them*
You mean 'one dimensional?'
Cloud feeling Guilt towards Aerith primarily doesn't make him a one dimenstional character, nor does it make the guilt one dimensional. You don't need romance to make a multifaceted guilt. Hell, that makes the guilt less fully dimensional.
I meant that, sometimes people act like it's
only guilt, and forget that she was a friend, and he wasn't just hurt by her death because he thought he failed, but at least because of that friendship.
You cited the start of a paragraph referring to two years later as the end of your citation, leaving off what the REST of the quote says about two years later.
This is why I hate using quotes.
Actually, it never says she was Jealous. It merely says she has complicated feelings. So even if you're insisting they're the same, you'll need to demonstrate it's jealousy in both cases. WRT to the future, you'll be FIGHTING the evidence.
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival." -10th AU, Tifa's profile
Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. -10th AU
I interpret those to meaning she is jealous. What do you think they mean?
Good to have your permission, then.
I note you ignored responding to the fact that both quotes mention guilt over failing to protect Aerith. Guilt. GUILT. Nothing else. Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate there is something else there, and that the something else IS what you say it is.
I mentioned this up above. That he feels that guilt because he cares.
It also says you can believe AND be a delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest liar. Funny that.
It also says you can be misreading the evidence and be geneuinely mistaken but be too obdurate to admit such.
I can continue like this all day.
Simply put, guilt trips do not work on me. I've been in debates for too long and across too many subjects.
But if it's not a guilt trip,
I'm not asking for your guilt or sympathy. But I'll note what you said, thanks.
Mutual Confirmation of Romantic feelings Are not. QED.
But you know what, even if we ignore that, there's no feeling IN the other version of the scene. Scenes without feeling cannot be scenes in which mutual feelings are confirmed. Context. This is how you use it.
He still says and thinks, regardless, that he's glad to have her at his side and not be alone.
As has been mentioned twice, I don't get mad 'over pixels', simply willfull dishonesty, regardless of subject.
Additionally, I was not getting frustrated. I'm not even sure what led you to think I was being frustrated.
Whatever you say.
Lastly, for now, you kinda stopped just short of recognizing your mistake in crediting FF7 to the character designer instead of the head writer.
Also, you skipped over this in its entirety.
I didn't even see it, and Nomura directed AC/C, and he's as important.
"Please, Aerbear, Anastar, don't give us this line- and it's completely a line. From 1997 until very recently, the Clerith position was not that there was insufficient evidence to say Cloud and Aerith were definitely the case. It was the exact opposite- that they definitely were. And you still don't consistently argue that we can't say for certain- even Anastar's essay she copy pasted here said that it could be certain."
I've never seen this before.
Please, do you disagree that the position has been until very recently, that the Clerith position has largely been- including in Anastar's essay recently used in this debate by Anastar herself- that one CAN be certain about Cloud and Aerith getting together?
I don't think this, because I don't think anything like that has been written in stone, to never be interpreted again. I don't think Cloud's romantic feelings have been made canon. For either Aerith or Tifa. And if I ever have, probably it was when it came out, when I was little.
If you do disagree, then could you explain sites like Destiny Fulfilled and older iterations of Anastar's site, or the Forgotten Crater archives, where such a position was consistently argued?
If you agree, could you please explain why this position has changed, and when it did?
I don't think the LT has been officially closed, and from what I know of Anastar, I think she shares this belief. Maybe it's an old essay or she just changed her mind.
You'll have to ask her.
The Post-modernist philosophy. It fucking burns.
*Tssss*
No. When he decided on them being together, Nomura was certain the movie expressed a great truth about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. When he reported this decision, Nomura said Tifa was someone's beloved. The 'I've no clue/ don't care about two years between' quote comes between these two times.
Tres and me cleared this too, I think.
It's also refering to Cloud being together with Tifa. And that being where he belonged. Something that is reiterated in the U10, and the CCU.
He would be where Tifa is.
So, the U10 story summary is sufficient for the HAHW, then? Or the important scenes pages?
No.
I am calling it's inclusion in the summary a placeholder. Like the Aerith date has been.
And Cloud and Tifa move in together, start a family, raise some kids, have a future together. Things you'd expect from folks who confirmed mutual romantic feelings.
Barret and Tifa have moved in together, raised Marlene, technically had a future at some point before FFVII.
She does, and you are aware of that statement's colloquial meaning, yes?
Just trying to ease the tension.
So, Clerith can get by with no quotes that say Cloud loved Aerith, but we must demonstrate he definitely still loved Tifa.
Actually, we have one. It's been shown in this thread several times. It's been hemmed and hawwed at, mostly.
Dude. We base Cloud and Aerith mostly off observation, like we did back in 1997.
The Ultimanias are described as informational books, right? Giving detail to what we already know. What's telling the story are the games and the movie. If Cloud and Tifa are going to be made canon, it should be made within the story itself. Nobody's gotten back to me about this, so uh..
Cloud and Tifa aren't shown to be in a romantic relationship in the story - the games, novellas, and movie.
"
What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."
That's what we're going to do. We're going by not just Nomura, but Square's telling of the entire story. You definitely have a case, but as the Compilation stands currently, their just isn't enough to say it's canon right now.
Despite being contradictory?
Yes. Because there are answers in the plural. Like I said... if you see it a different way, you'll find that possible answer. Until they say otherwise.
Maybe Cloud loves both girls.
To give you an indication of what the text itself is talking about. Yuffie, Barret, or Tifa's date could be there and the text would tell us the same thing. The picture's basically a timestamp. For all the entries, even the one in the subheading. The TEXT is important. Picture says WHEN, Text says WHAT.
Text says flip some pages and they're both written as optional.
The conversation in the LAHW was apathetic and short. Apathetic and short conversations are not that easy to mesh with confidently starting a new life with Tifa and feeling it will succeed because he has her, forming a family, raising kids, having a future, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I mesh it easily.
Suddenly not alone?
Where are you getting suddenly?
He had to have felt lonely at some point if he's thinking "Now I'm not. Tifa taught me this."
How about that he physically stops moving towards the door when the promise is mentioned?
Because he isn't ignoring her?
Quex, we only tested for that ONE variable. We didn't test shifting the TSV as well. What we CAN say is that the AV definitely affects the HAHW. We can't say other values do not. For all we know, Tifa's AV and the TSV both affect the flag, and if they together are above 50 or some other arbitrary value, you get the date.
"The biggest mystery of FF7—the affectional rating
It is the inside parameter prepared for 4 characters’ affectional rating for Cloud; they’re Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie and Barret (information from creating staffs). According to different conditions, some specific events will proceed variously. The choices that occasionally appear in the scene with conversations will affect the rating largely. If your choice makes the character reveal positive reaction, the rating would be raised. In addition, it seems the time he/she joined your party, the interaction during the combat mode (using “heal” and “cover” when the other one was in a pinch) will uplift the rating too. But to compare with choices that provided, the influence is minor." -Dismantled, page 189
omg if aeris is jacob is tifa miranda?
I'VE CLEARED OUT THE ENGINE ROOM, CLOUD............
What the shit?
Seriously, say it. You can't help but smile. 
How can I be ragging on Hito when I'm agreeing with him?!?
