The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

just to add to what you guys were saying about the hand, the U10 doesn't say it's her hand in the story playback, but there's a small section in the AC playback that says the hand reach scene in the movie was a throw back to the end of FFVII. I think anyway... I didn't look too closely at it, but tbh I'm not sure if it says specifically it's her hand or not XD

I think there's even a quote that says he fights for AVALANCHE just because she asks.

Ask and ye shall receive

ティファとの7年前の約束を思い出し、 つぎの作戦への協力を承諾
He recalls the promise with Tifa from 7 years ago, and consents to cooperate with future strategies. (Cloud's UO profile)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it was in Aerith's profile from the U10 that it mentions the relay battle hand reach being an homage to FFVII's ending. Somebody check for me. I is a workin' and can't look right now myself.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Imma voodoo you!

I honestly have no idea what that means, but just the chance to say it... so happy!! Seriously, say it. You can't help but smile.

((hugs)) So thanks for that!

Welk.

Do I get to include my favorite fanfics also?

....Can I include some Doujinshi?

Yeah, I can't recall a source stating it was Aerith. Not that I'm opposed to that line of thinking, I just have never seen it confirmed. When I first played the game I thought Cloud was lifestream loopy again, and that he wasn't seeing things 100% accurately, but that the hand was always Tifa's. I won't say this is factual, because there's nothing to back that up, but it's not completely bs upon play through. Although, I can definitely see why it's also connected with Aerith, especially during the ACC 'slay the dragon' sequence, because that end-reach does appear to be an homage.

Could be.

But still, for the sake of consistency, without documented 'evidence' we can't say for certain who/what the hand represents. You know...standards and all.

Oh yes. When someone demands of you a very silly standard, demand it right back.

Ask and ye shall receive

ティファとの7年前の約束を思い出し、 つぎの作戦への協力を承諾
He recalls the promise with Tifa from 7 years ago, and consents to cooperate with future strategies. (Cloud's UO profile)

Thank you my quote flunky.
Anyways, Aerbear, there it is- he recalls the promise, and thus consents to future missions.

I think it was in Aerith's profile from the U10 that it mentions the relay battle hand reach being an homage to FFVII's ending. Somebody check for me. I is a workin' and can't look right now myself.

Yes, but it doesn't say it was HER hand it's homaging.[/absolute pedant]

And no, it's not in her U10 profile, from what I can see. It mentions the relay, but not that it's an homage.

 

[Anastar]

Quexinos

2. Cloud and Tifa spend a romantic night under the Highwind together near the end of Disk Two.

~ There are two different versions of this scene and the version which a player gets is determined by Tifa's affection level with Cloud as governed by the Date Mechanism. In the Low Affection version, Cloud completely shuns and rejects Tifa's affection in that scene. Therefore, Cloud's affection towards Tifa is completely optional to the player.

You're looking at unrevised copies of my website. I've changed my mind since then, but neglected to change the website.

SE actually says that the Date Mech can lower Tifa's affection for Cloud, does it not? In the paragraph about Deviation in the 20th AU, SE even says that Tifa's affection level can change:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It says right there that Tifa's affection can change, and that's SE talking. They also say the same thing in the FFVII UO:

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Once again, SE says that Tifa's affection for Cloud can get low. So my website is obviously wrong about that. I should've changed it by now. My bad.

6. Cloud and Tifa DO have sex. Why else would Tifa be embarrassed the next morning?

~ Tifa could just as easily be embarrassed the next morning because she cried and got upset when Cloud turned her down the night before. Tifa cries during that scene anyway, which may also be a reason for her embarrassment. Tifa crying during that scene also implies that it is not actually romantic between them.

So according to YOU, Tifa DOES have affection for Cloud in the LA version and he shuns and rejects her. So that means the feelings aren't mutual in the LA scene. So I guess this can't be canon then right

Ditto what I said above. If SE says Tifa's affection level for Cloud can change, then it can.

I'd also like to point out that I've responded differently here in the debate thread. For example, I said that Tifa may have been embarrassed the next morning simply because she was sleeping on Cloud's shoulder. Given how shy Tifa is, I wouldn't be surprised if that embarrassed her at all.

Also:

5. Cloud and Tifa have sex under the Highwind.

~ There are at least three versions of the scene where they spend the night under the Highwind, and Cloud is capable of completely rejecting Tifa's affection in that scene. In the second place, there is absolutely nothing to prove that they had sex.

Where was this third highwind scene again? What happens in it?

You were there when me and Tres discussed this two years ago on my forum: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/529440/20/ (The discussion goes for a number of posts) I thought I had changed all references to the "third version" - in fact, I had from the essays. I had just neglected to change it on the FAQ.

Sorry - just shows how I've been neglecting my website recently. *blush*

EDIT

I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Any reason you left out the NEXT paragraph?

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman". However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.

Oh, I know why you did that. Because that's the part where Hito said the part that you never listened to. Seriously, the ragging on Hito needs to stop. He just gave a perfectly accurate description of the word and you quote a part of what he said and say, "SEE? He said this!".. .and even if Hito DID say "Yep, only two sided, never one sided." it doesn't matter because he's bloody wrong then. But he didn't say that anyone so

Yes, there's a reason I didn't quote the second part. The second paragraph doesn't contradict the first paragraph!

It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing.

The second paragraph says THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, which means that sometimes it means a mutual attraction and other times it means a one-sided attraction. Which is what I've been saying all along.

I have said repeatedly that koibito CAN mean a mutual attraction. That doesn't mean it ALWAYS means a mutual attraction. I acknowledge that it CAN mean beloved, too - but that's not always the case. It can also mean a mutual attraction.

And how dare you say I was ragging on Hito? How can I be ragging on Hito when I'm agreeing with him?!?

Also, hey does this sound familiar Anastar?

Advocates of the CloudxTifa pairing often proclaim in love triangle debates that Tifa was confirmed to be Cloud's "lover" or "sweetheart" by Tetsuya Nomura in the Reunion Files. This is the quote they are referring to:

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle." - Nomura, Reunion Files

The word translated as "sweetheart" in that sentence is the word koibito, or koi bito in Japanese. There have been conflicting interpretations as to the meaning of that word. This topic was already partially discussed in the essay Is Tifa Really Cloud's Sweetheart?, but further evidence about the Japanese usage of the word will be offered here.

One member of the CloudxAerith forums by the name of Shadow Spirit is a Japanese descendant. who was raised in a household learning Japanese customs from members of his family who were born and raised in Japan. He is also fluent in the Japanese language. Another member of the CloudxAerith forums, who goes by the name Resha, spent part of her childhood in Japan and was also raised in a household similar to Shadow Spirit's. Resha has many friends who are native to Japan, and her family often takes vacations in that country. Two of Resha's friends, named Saicho and Kenji, are Japanese natives who still live in that country.

According to Resha, Saicho, Kenji and Shadow Spirit, koi bito is one of the most overused Japanese words with non-Japanese fans of anime and manga. All of these people take koi bito to typically mean "girlfriend/boyfriend", although that isn't always the case because its definition varies according to the way it is written. When written in katakana or hiragana, the word can have various definitions, such as "sweetheart", "lover", or "boyfriend/girlfriend". However, when koi bito is written in kanji (as it is written in the Reunion Files), the word actually means "the person who loves" and does not specify whether those feelings are returned.

In other words, when written in kanji, koi bito only means that one person loves another. It does not mean that the love is reciprocated. Since koi bito was written in kanji in the Reunion Files, it means that Tifa embodies the traits of "a person who loves", and nothing more. In addition, Resha has also stated that if Nomura truly meant that Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in this sentence, then it would have been more likely for Nomura to describe her with the words aikoi or aikou, rather than koi bito. Shadow Spirit explained it further in the following:

Shadow Spirit: "The literal meaning you'll get from that is really 'boyfriend/girlfriend' (that's what written on any dictionary). But the most precise definition would be 'the one who is in love'. In other words, it's sure that 'A loves B', but you don't know if the 'B loves A' is true... on the very least, you can say that it's a one-sided love until the text say otherwise."

Furthermore, while the word koi bito in kanji has been known to mean "sweetheart" on occasion, it is extremely rare. Native Japanese inhabitants typically do not use the word koi bito written in kanji to mean "sweetheart". It is more often used to mean that by non-Japanese fans of anime and manga.

Does this mean that the word was mistranslated in the Reunion Files? Not necessarily. It's actually more likely that the translator was not a native of Japan, or that the translator is a big fan of anime/manga. Another possibility is that translating the passage to say that Tifa is "like a mother, a sweetheart, and an ally in battle" is more succinct than translating the passage to say that Tifa is "like a mother, a person who is in love, and an ally in battle". Besides, the translator probably never imagined that fans would be nitpicking this particular word to death.

or this?

This same translator also commented on another claim made by CloudxTifa supporters about the usage of this word in Japanese. In love triangle debates, CloudxTifa fans often assert that the word koibito is only used in Japanese with romantic connotations to describe a reciprocated romance. However, our research tells us otherwise. For one thing, there are several common phrases in Japanese which use the word koibito without romantic connotations, such as Nihon no Koibito, which means "Japan's sweetheart", and Shiroi Koibito, which is a brand of white chocolate cookies in Japan. The name of the cookies literally means "white beloved ones". Therefore, our research shows that the word koibito can indeed be used as a general adjective without romantic connotations. FF_Goddess also asked the professional translator Hiroyuki (cited above) specifically about the claim made by CloudxTifa supporters about the usage of the word. Hiroyuki said that it's "nonsense" to think that the word koibito is only used to describe a romantic relationship and cannot be used as a general adjective. Hiroyuki confirmed that the word koibito can indeed be used when describing a person's character or trait.

Any of that ring any bells?

Yes, it rings bells, and yes, I stick by it. "koibito" doesn't have just one meaning - like I've been saying here all along.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Thank you for this. No, really, thank you.

SE actually says that the Date Mech can lower Tifa's affection for Cloud, does it not? In the paragraph about Deviation in the 20th AU, SE even says that Tifa's affection level can change:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It says right there that Tifa's affection can change, and that's SE talking. They also say the same thing in the FFVII UO:

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Tifa's affection can change. NOT CLOUD'S. Period. End of. He loves her. It's up to her to match him back.

Thanks for playing LTD folks, it's been fun.

 

[Splintered]

Tifa. What defines her?

She is a mother [to Denzel and Marlene]. A Comrade in Arms [to Avalanche]. And she might be well liked by someone or lots of people because she's a nice person BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHO because its never said so it obviously must mean something despite nobody else was named for the other two roles.

 

[Theozilla]

Quexinos

You're looking at unrevised copies of my website. I've changed my mind since then, but neglected to change the website.

SE actually says that the Date Mech can lower Tifa's affection for Cloud, does it not? In the paragraph about Deviation in the 20th AU, SE even says that Tifa's affection level can change:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It says right there that Tifa's affection can change, and that's SE talking. They also say the same thing in the FFVII UO:

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Once again, SE says that Tifa's affection for Cloud can get low. So my website is obviously wrong about that. I should've changed it by now. My bad.

Ditto what I said above. If SE says Tifa's affection level for Cloud can change, then it can.

I'd also like to point out that I've responded differently here in the debate thread. For example, I said that Tifa may have been embarrassed the next morning simply because she was sleeping on Cloud's shoulder. Given how shy Tifa is, I wouldn't be surprised if that embarrassed her at all.

You were there when me and Tres discussed this two years ago on my forum: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/529440/20/ (The discussion goes for a number of posts) I thought I had changed all references to the "third version" - in fact, I had from the essays. I had just neglected to change it on the FAQ.

Sorry - just shows how I've been neglecting my website recently. *blush*

Yes, there's a reason I didn't quote the second part. The second paragraph doesn't contradict the first paragraph!

It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing.

The second paragraph says THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, which means that sometimes it means a mutual attraction and other times it means a one-sided attraction. Which is what I've been saying all along.

I have said repeatedly that koibito CAN mean a mutual attraction. That doesn't mean it ALWAYS means a mutual attraction. I acknowledge that it CAN mean beloved, too - but that's not always the case. It can also mean a mutual attraction.

And how dare you say I was ragging on Hito? How can I be ragging on Hito when I'm agreeing with him?!?

Yes, it rings bells, and yes, I stick by it. "koibito" doesn't have just one meaning - like I've been saying here all along.

Yeah, the Ultimainias mention that Tifa's affection can change because they always include the different deviations for in game mechanics, just like any Star Wars Video Game guide (e.g. Revenge of the Sith or The Force Unleashed) will include the variations of Anakin killing Obi-Wan or Samuel Witwer (Starkiller) killing Vader but that does not make them canon. The canon endings are Obi-Wan beating Anakin and Samuel Witwer sacrificing himself for the rebels. And for the Highwind scene the Ultimanias have the HA scene as the canon version.

Also I'll admit I am not knowledgable enough yet on the kobito translation debate, but I can say that whatever definitions of kobito are judged with usage concerning Tifa, the same should also be applied to usage concerning Aerith (taking into account the context of the surrounding text of course).

 

[Dashell]

You're looking at unrevised copies of my website. I've changed my mind since then, but neglected to change the website.

----

Once again, SE says that Tifa's affection for Cloud can get low. So my website is obviously wrong about that. I should've changed it by now. My bad.

----

Sorry - just shows how I've been neglecting my website recently. *blush*

Thank you for addressing these. I wanted to bring those up for a couple reasons and one was to show everyone that you no longer use those arguments.

So anyway a lot of these things were written a long time ago, and since then you've changed or revised a few things here and there. It seems to me that a lot of these arguments changed once FTOIL came out. At least I never heard you say "oh the feelings in the LA are mutual because of the affection rating." before and it's not on your website, so it's relatively new.

You no longer stand by what you stood by before, correct? That's fine, people change their minds all the time. I used to be in the camp that Aerith only loved Zack and not Cloud, and I changed my mind since then. You feel you shouldn't have to stand by what you said a while ago, I assume. Am I right?

So then may I ask:

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

Why are Clotis who said "koibito only has one meaning" being held to what they said pre CoLW? Should we hold them to different standards we hold you or should we hold everyone to the same standard? Would it be okay if I say "funny how your argument on how the LA scene went down conveniently changed once FTOIL came out."

The second paragraph says THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, which means that sometimes it means a mutual attraction and other times it means a one-sided attraction. Which is what I've been saying all along.

So has Tres. Read what Tres said again:

"Koibito" has a specific meaning in that it identifies someone who is desired by another. That is its meaning. It can be translated (which is to say interpreted, depending on the context) as "beloved," "lover," "girlfriend"/"boyfriend" or "sweetheart," yes -- but its actual meaning remains "one who is desired by another" and any of those other words are a translator's choice for best conveying their understanding of the context.

He's telling you the meaning of the word means "person who is loved." And that you can't just automatically assume it's mutual. You have to look at the context. IMO it's pretty clear what he's saying. Please try to read his posts more carefully.

You then quoted a post from Tres saying, "It can mean sweetheart/lover but it depends on context." then said "Hito disagrees" and quote mined a post of his, leaving out the very next paragraph where he said exactly what Tres said.

Can you see how that doesn't make sense?

And how dare you say I was ragging on Hito? How can I be ragging on Hito when I'm agreeing with him?!?

Okay so

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so.

Did you mean sometimes here instead of always? That's a pretty big difference in word choice.

Yes, it rings bells, and yes, I stick by it. "koibito" doesn't have just one meaning - like I've been saying here all along.

No comment here, I believe my point has been made.

You really need to read what you're responding to because right now, people are thinking you're doing this on purpose and that's what's making it frustrating for them. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. If you are, stop it. If you're not, please read what people say more closely and be careful not to hold someone to a standard you yourself wouldn't want to be held to.

 

[Master Bates]

It frustrates me that Hito's good name is being dragged in this mess (though it's inevitable when it comes to translations). Don't do that please. Just don't. Hito is one of my idol, he is one heck of a cool translator who makes HIGH QUALITY fan translations for FREE. FOR FUCKING FREE. For the longest time that I've been following Hito's translations, I haven't seen any complains about his translations UNTIL the famous "koibito" word in Tifa's RF. But I know he never, EVER, EVER, EVER said that the word ONLY implies MUTUALITY. He has always been consistent on his stand on this "koibito" fiasco, although by that time, he just usually leaves the "non-mutuality" of the word out for simplicity's sake and just to make his explanations short. Partially because the RF is an omniscient, out-of-universe source, which makes sense that the implications are that of mutuality.

And then CoLW happened and people tried to sully Hito. Puh-leeaaaassseeeee. Here is a post by Hito explaining the "koibito" word BEFORE COLW got out into the open.

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

And what does he say in that post? That there are instances that it isn't mutual.

Just please stop messing with Hito's good name. It breaks my heart.

EDIT: Oh, and please don't make it sound like Hito's a Cloti because he ain't no Cloti shipper. Sure he is currently one of TLS translators but he isn't just "our" translator because he translates for EVERYBODY. You should know Anastar. He used to translate for CxA too.

 

[Zee]

re: the hand scene

There's an ungloved hand reaching towards him via the lifestream as Aeris' theme plays I think that's a pretty obvious indicator that it was her.

Tifa's hand breaks the melody and the screen blurs like Cloud's only just realizing what's going on. It always seemed to me that it was Aeris leading Cloud out of that weird mental state he was in after fighting Sephiroth.

the ending of ff7 could be a homestuck flash i swear

 

[Fairheartstrife]

re: the hand scene

There's an ungloved hand reaching towards him via the lifestream as Aeris' theme plays I think that's a pretty obvious indicator that it was her.

Zee, stop with the fucking logic. Seriously. Common sense in the LTD thread?? GTFO.

I actually have no problem with it being Aerith, and that makes sense, but again, there's no 'official SE confirmation' so y'know...switching standards... blah blah.

 

[Zee]

I don't feel like we should be so dependent on official SE confirmation anyway since the game was really symbolic it just defeats the purpose when all these "BUT NOMURA/NOJIMA/MY ARTBOOK SAID" arguments pop up. They're kinda just guidelines imo??

also because i'm lazy and i'm sure it'd cut down on 90% of these tl;dr posts i just dont have the attention span for this...............................

 

[Makoeyes987]

We're not looking for narrative critique or analysis, we're looking for specific continuity and narrative intent.

So actual creator quotes and citations are extremely relevant and necessary. Interpretation or symbolism is not the point here.

 

[Zee]

That's kind of a dumb attitude in a conversation about character relationships in a game that encouraged fan interpretation by being highly symbolic

i mean

at this point most people acknowledge the romantic overtones given to both girls the only real "debates" here usually center around the depth of the relationships or how they function which requires posters to do more than spam nomura quotes at each other

seems like that's uh

not a very interesting or in depth discussion at all

 

[Anastar]

Gym Leader Devil

The mere fact that SE uses the Clerith date scene picture means that SE is mentioning the Clerith date scene.

False! The mere fact that SE didn't say jack shit about Aerith means they did NOT mention the Clerith date scene. I'm sorry, I know how much you want Aerith to have a place of importance on the FTOIL page, but she has no such thing. The picture used is irrelevant to the text that accompanies said picture.

But you've yet to answer - why did SE put the Date Scene picture on the page? IF the whole point was to canonize Cloti (as you claim), then why even put the Date scene picture on the page?

There was absolutely no reason to put the Date picture on the page under the caption of "Love Between Heroes" other than to picture a woman other than Tifa with Cloud.

As the quote given to you before reads:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Looks to me like Cloud is still wavering between heroines if his picture is shown with two different women on the FTOIL page. The other heroes aren't shown with two different women - just Cloud.

That doesn't contradict my previous questions. Let me put it this way: why would SE show ANY picture other than the HA HW scene on the FTOIL page if they intended Cloti to be canon? As I've pointed out before, FFVII is the ONLY game with two pictures on the page showing the main hero with two different girls.

I hate when people do this to me, but I am gonna respond to this question with a question and let Tres, to whom the question was intended, worry about answering.

So, my counter question: What does it matter? Going by the text instead of the pretty pictures, the notation about the date scene is irrelevant to the debate. It notes nothing BUT optionality. It does not equal the actual meat and potatoes of FFVII's entry on the FTOIL page. That's ALL Cloud and Tifa.

And my counter question: why wouldn't it matter? The very fact that a picture of Cloud with a different woman appears on the same page as Cloud and Tifa under a title of "Love Between Heroes" obviously means that Cloud can waver between them, just like Kitase said. The mere fact that both pictures are labeled with a page number on which a deviation to the scene is discussed talks about optionality.

The page numbers at the top of BOTH pictures specifies that BOTH scenes are optional.

No it doesn't, and why do you keep saying this? Its not like people can't go read the text and see that you are wrong, so seriously why do you bother?

Because I'm not wrong. The page numbers at the top of both pictures leads to a page which discusses the scene's deviations - which means the scene is optional.

Common sense says that if there are two heroines pictured with the hero under the title "Love Between Heroes" and both scenes are labeled as optional, it means the hero can love either one.

Plus, SE has never said that the HA HW scene is canon. That's just something you guys have convinced yourselves of, and it's not true.

The picture of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is used in both the LA and HA versions. FFVII is the ONLY game where the screenshots are labeled with page numbers that specify that the scenes have deviations that depend on the character's affection level.

This has been gone over how many times now? I'd make a genuine point about this, but you don't want examples of other deviations outside of FFVII that are treated the same way and yet still have a canonical version.

Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.

At any rate, there are no other deviations shown on the FTOIL page. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

That in itself says that SE is showing that Cloud can be in love with either girl. If SE wanted to say that Cloud loves Tifa only, they would've put a pic of the HA HW scene with no deviation specified and no pic of Clerith on the FTOIL page.

You know, I really wish they'd done this at this point just to see where you'd set the goal posts next. But since they didn't, I'll have to content myself with the knowledge that IF SE wanted to say Cloud loves Tifa, they'd do exactly what they did because that's what the damned page is about.

That's what the damned page is about only in your opinion. SE hasn't said that Cloti is canonized on that page, and it doesn't look to me like that's what SE is saying on that page. There's lots of people who agree with me, too.

The fact that deviations are specified according to affection levels and the fact that two pictures are used of Cloud with two different women means that he can love either girl, and that it all depends on affection levels.

Still using arbitrary game mechanics to support your points, and still using them WRONG. The affection level that the game tracks is, as has been explained to you before, TIFA'S. NOT CLOUD'S.

Funny - I've said the same thing. However, I take my blinders off to notice that the girl's affection rating also affects Cloud's.

Further, we are directly told Tifa loves Cloud. This fact is canon, it has been directly spelled out and should not be argued. I would say could not, but you CAN argue anything if you're willing to put sense aside. So that alone rules out any version in which Tifa's affection for Cloud is low. Please don't pretend otherwise. So, that in and of itself totally invalidates the LA HW scene.

Nojima said otherwise. He said:

"Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix website

Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." Furthermore, Aerith is called a "love rival" in Tifa's 10th AU profile and the same profile says that Tifa's complicated feelings toward Aerith continue in AC/ACC because she knows that Cloud is dragging the past around because of Aerith.

Then you have Nomura saying in Distance that Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, and the DoC game manual says that Cloud will never forget Aerith - which is literally translated as Aerith being engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

We haven't seen a single hug or kiss between Cloud and Tifa, nor have we heard an "I love you" between them. Nothing about a "love" existing between Cloud and Tifa has been canonized except in your imagination.

Further invalidating your "interpretation" is that we are directly told that mutual feelings WERE confirmed.

Optionally - the key word you are overlooking. Optionally does not equal canon until SE says so or at least gives indication of it in-game, in-novella, or in-movie, which hasn't happened. Therefore, your "proof" is insufficient.

Tifa loves Cloud. Ergo, Cloud must love Tifa for mutual feelings to be confirmed. As stated prior, friendship and support have already been confirmed between the two long before this scene. Rejection is outright impossible since we know Tifa does love Cloud, ergo rejection would not be mutual.

I said nothing about rejection. I said that they don't have interest in one another romantically. That's backed up by things like Cloud sleeping in a separate room and being invited into the family by Marlene.

It says under the Tifa date picture (I assume that one was chosen by the person who wrote the article):

[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.

Now, it may be true that Cloud is "none the wiser to them" at the beginning of the date, but he obliviously learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date scene because SE says that Aerith tells him during the date:

During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania

Like you said, Yuffie kisses Cloud during their date, so Cloud obliviously learns of Yuffie's interest in him during the date. Looks like Cloud learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date, too, since she tells him.

And I am pleasantly surprised, this is a better point than I had expected. I would like to say you are assuming the meaning to be DURING the date. Its not nearly as unfounded a concept as what I normally see from you, so props there, but it is still unsupported and incorrect. Cloud still has no idea what the hell about the girls' feelings until later on. Aerith tries to get his attention on her date, and Cloud is clueless despite her forthright manner.

Prove it.

And since you want to insult my manner of debating, I guess I should start doing the same to you and other Cloti's in return? After all, insults are so relevant to making a point. <_<

Also, bringing up Yuffie kissing Cloud in relation to a quote that ONLY mentions Tifa and Aerith doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure he becomes aware of her from that (and reacts very awkwardly). But the quote only specifies him as oblivious to Tifa and Aerith, so that bit about Yuffie... really isn't helpful to either side.

Oh, I'm sorry. I brought that up because Tres brought it up:

In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness. ~originally posted by Tres
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370734&postcount=1470

And you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There is absolutely no reason for SE to put a picture of any Date scene on the FTOIL page if all that SE wants to say is that Cloud loves Tifa.

I said it once before, maybe they just wanted a picture of Aerith there? Since the FTOIL page DOES specify Cloud and Tifa mutually loving each other, that makes more sense than adding in some Clerith hinting.

Why would SE want a picture of Aerith on the page with Cloud if SE is wanting to say that Cloti is canon? Why didn't they put a picture of Lulu on the page with Tidus and Yuna? Why didn't they put a picture of Quistis on the page with Squall and Rinoa?

This is especially true when SE has specified that there is a Love Triangle going on between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in the game manual, and when Kitase has said that the hero wavers between the two heroines. SE puts both girls on the page with Cloud under a title that says "Love Between Heroes" - that obviously means he can love either one.

IF SE was just trying to say that Cloti is canon, then a picture of the HA HW scene (specifically the HA scene, not a pic used in both the LA or HA versions) on the FTOIL page with no mention of deviation according to affection levels is enough.

Keep right on saying what SE would do IF they intended to do X. I'll take the words on their page over the ones you put down any day.

Trouble is, you know I'm right.

 

[Tifabelle]

@ zee - I don't think anyone is really arguing that the hand isn't Aerith's. I think they're just applying the standards that Anastar and others have been using to determine "canon events". I think that argument is just folks being facetious.

 

[Dashell]

Exactly. Until Square specifically says "The High Affection highwind scene is the canon version" in those words we can't know for sure despite them using it within story summaries, putting it as one of the most important scenes of the game, and having it as the only one mentioned in the memorial album. Cloud is NOT Tifa's sweetheart despite the fact that we can attribute her other two roles to other people without a second thought. Cloud has Tifa in a way that's different than before but he or Square doesn't say "how" so therefore we can't assume it's romantic. Square never specifically said, "These are the members of Cloud's family: ...." So we can't just assume that it's just Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel despite numerous creator quotes only specifying those 4 as the family. Because it's not labelled as Cloud's family, we don't know for sure.

So yeah, until the hand is specified as Aerith's, we can't just assume it's hers. It could be Zack, Sephiroth, his mother... we don't know for sure and we can't assume

EDIT:

Cloud still has no idea what the hell about the girls' feelings until later on. Aerith tries to get his attention on her date, and Cloud is clueless despite her forthright manner.

Prove it.

Repost:
Cloud is still, "Dirk-a-dir dunno whatcha mean there..." on Aerith's date even after she voices her opinion. So even if the Clerith date happens, Cloud is still an oblivious idiot. Aerith then says to Cloud, "You don't enjoy spending time with me" or something to that effect right afterwards. If we apply your logic to that from the "Do you love me" scene... that means Cloud never showed Aerith any reason he enjoyed being with her.

And he didn't hear Tifa so....

Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.

Vincent and Yuffie didn't join the party then and Lucrecia's cave never happened?

Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith."

He said MIGHT first of all, and ye, problems between them in the context of love marriage and family... but no that can't be it

Yes "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith" as in the things with Aerith NEVER HAPPENED. And please don't tell me that it's just my opinion that the said that. If I said, "The soup upset my stomach, maybe things would have been different with the salad." (which would be a really stupid thing to say BTW but just work with me ) that means I didn't eat the salad.

EDIT III:
Okay last one I promise.
And also please don't try to tell me he means "maybe things would have gone well had Aerith lived" as I've seen it be argued. Then you'd be saying that the statement would be things between Cloud and TIfa went hunkey dorey if Aerith had lived... so Cloud would end up with Tifa even if Aerith had lived.

EDIT II
And why are we saying for sure that Cloud and Tifa have separate bedrooms? Did someone prove that Cloud sleeps in his office yet?

Here's an HQ pic again:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1853/cloudsroom.png

No chair, no mirror, no dresser, no TV. Look I really don't if you want to say they MIGHT have separate bedrooms because it can't be disproved as well as I can't say they do for sure, but there's no way Cloud sleeps in his office all the time. He has to have an actual room with a dresser at the very least.

 

[Tifabelle]

IF the whole point was to canonize Cloti (as you claim), then why even put the Date scene picture on the page?

The point of putting together that page wasn't to canonize cloti. I mean really.

Besides which, Cloti was already canon. Cloud & Tifa are one example of a romantic couple in the whole series.

Common sense says that if there are two heroines pictured with the hero under the title "Love Between Heroes" and both scenes are labeled as optional, it means the hero can love either one.

They're not both optional. Read the captions.

Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.

So Shadow dies? Tidus never comes back?

Funny - I've said the same thing. However, I take my blinders off to notice that the girl's affection rating also affects Cloud's.

Are you for real? Nothing affects Cloud's affection rating. Cloud doesn't have an affection rating. Only Barret, Tifa, Aerith, & Yuffie do.

Nojima said otherwise. He said:

"Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix website

Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." Furthermore, Aerith is called a "love rival" in Tifa's 10th AU profile and the same profile says that Tifa's complicated feelings toward Aerith continue in AC/ACC because she knows that Cloud is dragging the past around because of Aerith.

Hey I have a question. How come you can take a Nomura quote from the 10th AU, and use it to "disprove" something from the 20th AU, but when previously discussing Yuffie's reaction the the HW scene, you decided that two sentences on the same page regarding the same subject matter were unrelated?

We haven't seen a single hug or kiss between Cloud and Tifa, nor have we heard an "I love you" between them. Nothing about a "love" existing between Cloud and Tifa has been canonized except in your imagination.

Hypothetically, even if that were true... let me just try something:

We haven't seen a single hug or kiss between Cloud and Aerith, nor have we heard an "I love you" between them. Nothing about a "love" existing between Cloud and Aerith has been canonized except in your imagination.

ahaha, that was fun.

Cloud still has no idea what the hell about the girls' feelings until later on. Aerith tries to get his attention on her date, and Cloud is clueless despite her forthright manner.

Prove it.

k...

In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness. ~originally posted by Tres

SE puts both girls on the page with Cloud under a title that says "Love Between Heroes" - that obviously means he can love either one.

Not when you actually read the page.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

re: the hand scene

There's an ungloved hand reaching towards him via the lifestream as Aeris' theme plays I think that's a pretty obvious indicator that it was her.

Tifa's hand breaks the melody and the screen blurs like Cloud's only just realizing what's going on. It always seemed to me that it was Aeris leading Cloud out of that weird mental state he was in after fighting Sephiroth.

I agree that it couldn't more obviously be Aerith's hand. In any case, I tracked down the reference to the relay battle being an homage to the ending of the original game. It was the staff commentary on the Japanese DVD of AC:

The scene where Cloud gets a boost from each of his companions was called the Relay Battle, something that was homage to the ending of the game where Cloud stretched out his hand towards the hand in the light.

Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

Granted, the wording there could imply that the entire team reaching out their hands to Cloud was an homage to the hand reach from FFVII's ending -- but only one member of the team extends a hand from within light during the relay battle, so it's safe to say it was the same person both times.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Granted, the wording there could imply that the entire team reaching out their hands to Cloud was an homage to the hand reach from FFVII's ending -- but only one member of the team extends a hand from within light during the relay battle, so it's safe to say it was the same person both times.

It's a safe bet we all know who Tifa is a koibito to as well. It's a safe bet we know the feelings beneath the HW were, in fact, romantic. It's a safe bet that it's a fucking office. It's a safe bet that it's a cot. It's a safe bet that raising a family, blushing, smiling and having midnight conversations is 'couple' behavior...

It's time we start throwing their shifty standards right back at them...and...

because I'm an asshole: The scene where Cloud gets a boost from each of his companions was called the Relay Battle, something that was homage to the ending of the game where Cloud stretched out his hand towards the hand in the light.

SE never says who the hand in the light belongs too.

Also, I would like some sort of factual citation that states Cloud's affections are variable within the game of FFVII or I would like Anastar to STOP LYING. I thought this was determined to be a thread rule.

ps. The commentary on Cloud hunting for his missing sword... **laughs**

 

[aerbear]

Another case of squinching your eyes good and tightly shut until it goes away, as far as I can see. The sources are most definitely there.

Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.

Same difference really. Harry has been confirmed to wind up with Ginny, while Hermione is confirmed to end up with Ron. Cloud has been confirmed to end up with Tifa while Aerith winds up with Zack dead. Harry/Ginny and Cloud/Tifa even have the symmetry of living together and having kids going for them to help seal the analogy. So yeah, this works pretty well.

I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.

Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.

Cloud is shown with Tifa there. The Aerith picture is entirely irrelevant to the issue discussed on the page. She is not even mentioned by name on the page.

She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.

If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.

The description says it's optional, just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional. It isn't right in the description, but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.

Glad we at least agree that such would be trolling. You have now admitted to accusing everyone arguing the position that Cloti is canon of trolling, btw, in that you expressed a belief that we do not actually believe it. Have fun with that.

I'm not saying everyone who believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are trolls, at all. I know a few really nice people who think they're canon and I don't think they're trolls.

I've already expressed my view on why Aerith's date scene was chosen for the blurb on the page about the date mechanics. They do not bear repeating yet again. Either way, it doesn't matter why it is there. The real meat of the page, where said page relates to this LTD, is all Cloud and Tifa.

Doesn't the page also say that it's about love developing between the hero and heroine? There are two heroines in the game, and one hero, and we already know it's officially a love triangle, so it makes since that all three of them are there. If you think that page closes the LT, then Cloud must love both girls.

Still vaguely confused, since I remember this being a direct choice you made. Not something determined by affection mechanics and what-not. So unless I am mistaken about what you're referring to... what?

The time when you meet Cait Sith, one person goes with you. That person depends on the date mechanics.

When was the last time an apathetic scene led directly into the involved characters belonging together? Living as a family and raising kids together? Being able to succeed because the man has the woman in a way that is different from before?

The power of friendship *sings*

I note you did not answer my question concerning the time frame of the quote you displayed within the narrative.

But, no matter. I'll continue assuming it occurred after the HW scene. How did an apathetic and short conversation lead to him suddenly feeling he's less alone than he was again? It doesn't. Now put that quote with the HA version. Suddenly Cloud is not just fighting with his friends by his side. Now he has LOVE. I've felt alone when my friends were beside me. Someone you love is just a bit different. Ergo, the quote you tossed out does not support your position since the LA version would lead to no such thing. If anything, it fits with the HA version.

It does fit with the LA version because the next day he says to Tifa "It's all right Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."

You've already admitted Aerith is not alone here. Zack, Cloud's mom, even Jessie. Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt since she was the only one of those he had directly placed under his protection. It doesn't make her a super-special snowflake of romantic intentions.

I didn't say it did. But they put special emphasis on Cloud's feelings for Aerith, so she was a very dear friend and different from the rest, not just a source of guilt and sadness in his life.

To name but one example and thus explain the joke, yes

I bet Nomura was the first person to jump on board for an FFX remake

This looks dismissive. Is it dismissive?

'Tis not dismissive.

He said he TRIED NOT TO when writing the story. Then gave a self-deprecating laugh that indicates he failed. As if it wasn't obvious enough what the living situation at Cloud and Tifa's place is, that's a pretty good indicator right there.

The translation I've been given is that he says "I don't want to go into my views..."

You mistake the source of my laughter. If you have something concrete that you have been sitting on for some reason, go ahead and use it please.

I don't have anything concrete that you have to agree with. I don't think my ship is canon anyway.

On the subject of quote mining, to fix means to stop. And that's all I ask on the subject. Context is important, stop excising it from your quotes and we'll all be happier.

And I said I would fix it.

Okay, people are taking that article way too seriously, lol. It's just an article. It's well written - some people here don't even agree with it, but still appreciate it. And time and time again it's been said you CAN create a Clerith based article if you want and have it front paged....why are there still complaints about this?

No, no, I know But I did see, on another thread, a few people saying "Okay, we shoved it to them already, now can we change the name?" That's why we weren't sure if it was honestly serious or not.

But I'll take your acceptance that "I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened" as complete agreement with me and end this here.

Kidding. Maybe. A little.

I hope you are

You mean it might lead to Cloud telling Tifa he knows he can start a new life successfully this time because he has her with him in a different way than before?

No.

He doesn't say at what point he realized this, though. Certainly he must have known when Tifa and Barret stuck by him after he beat the shit out of Aerith, urging him to continue on even when he doubted himself and wanted them to leave him behind.

It's his last monologue in the book (if I remember right, it's either during or directly after the Highwind scenes.)

Tifa was always important to him.

I agree. But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.

It's not his younger self. The image of the younger Cloud is simply a representation of Cloud's subconscious -- it's not a form of him frozen in time from childhood.

Hell, the fact that it has the memories of events that happened during the Nibelheim incident (when Cloud was older than the form his subconscious took) shows that it's not.

I mean that, it's a part of his subconscious that he was forgetting, like his younger self was dredged up to help him remember those things - what really happened, how he'd felt about Tifa, Zack, everything that was missing. By "still holding", I think it means those feelings are literally being withheld by his memories, and at the end of it, he remembers - but I don't know or think it means that he just continues feeling them. I think that's up to interpretation. If he can romantically reject Tifa in the LA version, for example, and only express feelings of desire in the HA version, I think that backs it up. (I'm expecting somebody will come in and say "Oh, you mean THE CANON VERSION!?" )

It wasn't; it was written to inform. That some folks took offense to it doesn't make it trolling.

No, I know now. It just seemed to me that from what people were saying, it was written to get people mad.

As mentioned, there are a lot more than three changable events in FF7, and if we're relating it to the things selected BY the AV mechanic, that's just two. The choice of person to run around GS with after Barret runs off AFFECTS the AV mechanic.

There are three changeable events controlled by the date mechanics. And the first changeable event is supposed to be who goes with you when you meet Cait Sith

But contrasting this, I DO know places where SW materials list deviations for the plot based on your choices in game. But this does not change that there is an official answer. Likewise, we've been showing on several occasions that the HAHW scene happened and it IS important. It's literally called one of the most important scenes in the game.
IIRC, you never did respond to me how the exile's gender affects future events.

Respond to you..? Wait, that was you before?
Woah! Hi! Your name has changed and everything.
Your picture has boobs!

The Exile's gender affects the Disciple joining your party - it can only happen if she's female.

There's no way Cloud's indifferent towards Tifa even during his headscrew period.
"Only Tifa's opinion matters." for one. Apologizing to her repeatedly for being a fake, hoping she got to meet the real Cloud he couldn't be, Tifa matters to Cloud.

Fairly indifferent, as in, he should have treated her better in certain parts. He's a lot nicer to her after, and that's just my opinion.

We do. But we also know it's referring to why Nomura did what he did in KH. It's not relevant to the FF7 narrative. Hell, apart from 'something warm' being the same as what Tifa wanted in AC, pretty much jack divided by squat of KH is relevant to an original game.

"Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer.
Sounds like a KH statement.

You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
Sounds like a KH statement.

Cloud is a popular character,
Sounds like a general statement.

and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this.
Sounds like a general statement.

Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."
Sounds like it could be both.

And I think he'd agree that KH did have some relevance to Cloud and Aerith as characters.
"Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players." -Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine
Even though he considers them separate stories, directly after he says it can also explain some of their relationship from VII itself.

But I already said I'd amend it anyway. And I forgot. Kingdom Hearts is a touchy subject

Oh good. Blanket agreement. I do so love when I get that.

That's nice. But you didn't get that from me

It's possible. But it's also possible he simply stopped sending letters once he got 'flunked' for SOLDIER, or merely only wished to send good news and the good news hadn't happened yet.
And even if Cloud never wrote, there's still six months of time to spend in each other's company BEFORE he leaves, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

Both of our thoughts are possible. Good enough for me.

Barret was merely an excuse. It was the promise that convinced even Hardass Headscrew Cloud to stay.
I think there's even a quote that says he fights for AVALANCHE just because she asks.

Ask and ye shall receive

&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#12398;7&#24180;&#21069;&#12398;&#32004;&#26463;&#12434;&#24605;&#12356;&#20986;&#12375;&#12289; &#12388;&#12366;&#12398;&#20316;&#25126;&#12408;&#12398;&#21332;&#21147;&#12434;&#25215;&#35582;
He recalls the promise with Tifa from 7 years ago, and consents to cooperate with future strategies. (Cloud's UO profile)

Anyways, Aerbear, there it is- he recalls the promise, and thus consents to future missions.

It didn't say that's why, just this happened and then this happened.
Not trying to be mean or rain on the parade or anything, I'll go with it

You're correct we don't know why he liked her. It's never been said. But Cloud had to have spoken to her before the well. Even IF ONLY to have asked her out to the well, and likely on numerous occasions before.

I'm not exactly sure where it was, but I remember a quote saying the boys gave her letters inviting her to go to the well?

Remember, Tifa had remembered that they were close, but on reflection, had to admit she guessed they weren't THAT Close. That suggests they spoke somewhat often, but not deeply, like you might expect with your neighbor, as they were.

And he thought she hated him.

And we are saying that this answer is itself a claim and should be supported by evidence or cut away with Okkam's razor as an unnecessary element. When I say embrace parsimony, I'm not just being glib. I am BEING glib, so you know, but not purely glib. I mean we should strive to ' not multiply entities beyond necessity' as William of Okkam's metaphorical razor is oft formulated as.

It's supported that it isn't just guilt by the fact that he's feeling that guilt because he wanted to protect her. I'm saying he cared about her a lot, and it doesn't have to be in a romantic way, I understand, but that's the way some of us interpret it.

Because maybe not very good or very close friends, but they were friends.

SE has bad standards for friends...

She did. She wanted him around partly to keep an eye on him.

Tifa is stated too as well, and Cid, in the OG, notes Cloud was notably off before he went kibitz. And Cid had less time than Aerith to get to know Cloud.
And yes, she DID try and find out. But she was also having trouble doing so because Cloud knew things he should have had no way of knowing. She spends more than the entire first disc trying to find a way to figure out how to prove to Cloud he's not well without making it worse.

You said Tifa had to know him well before she met him again to know he wasn't being himself, but if Cid and Aerith noticed and hadn't even known him before the Jenova cells got to him, they made it off of observation. I think Tifa did too.

Actually, he doesn't say 'things might not work between Cloud and Tifa' ever. He merely says things aren't going well.

"first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out."
It could go either way. With the Denzel/Marlene part, I think we talked about this once already, and he's guessing himself.

As for 'a real family' with a mother and father, well, Cloud views Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene as his family. He views the kids as his responsibility, and he views Tifa as the mother in the family they formed.
Tifa might be worried about if they're a real family. Cloud would seem to have decided they are.

He thinks of them as his family, but it doesn't say he thinks of her as a wife or something.

She was jealous of the woman who got to live together with Cloud. And she entrusted ALL of her feelings to Tifa. I mean, unless you think that doesn't include a romantic feeling or three.

I don't think she just 'handed' him over, but that she wants her to accompany him.

You've never denied it. But you've been obdurate about reading context previously.

I'll try not to.

Then why special plead for Aerith's 'dear' being notably different?

Square has made it notably different.

"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007

His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.

You did. But it needs to be stressed so you can go back to whoever gave that to you and throttle them with it.

*searches for website and throttles them*

You mean 'one dimensional?'
Cloud feeling Guilt towards Aerith primarily doesn't make him a one dimenstional character, nor does it make the guilt one dimensional. You don't need romance to make a multifaceted guilt. Hell, that makes the guilt less fully dimensional.

I meant that, sometimes people act like it's only guilt, and forget that she was a friend, and he wasn't just hurt by her death because he thought he failed, but at least because of that friendship.

You cited the start of a paragraph referring to two years later as the end of your citation, leaving off what the REST of the quote says about two years later.

This is why I hate using quotes.

Actually, it never says she was Jealous. It merely says she has complicated feelings. So even if you're insisting they're the same, you'll need to demonstrate it's jealousy in both cases. WRT to the future, you'll be FIGHTING the evidence.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival." -10th AU, Tifa's profile

Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. -10th AU

I interpret those to meaning she is jealous. What do you think they mean?

Good to have your permission, then.

I note you ignored responding to the fact that both quotes mention guilt over failing to protect Aerith. Guilt. GUILT. Nothing else. Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate there is something else there, and that the something else IS what you say it is.

I mentioned this up above. That he feels that guilt because he cares.

It also says you can believe AND be a delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest liar. Funny that.
It also says you can be misreading the evidence and be geneuinely mistaken but be too obdurate to admit such.
I can continue like this all day.
Simply put, guilt trips do not work on me. I've been in debates for too long and across too many subjects.
But if it's not a guilt trip,

I'm not asking for your guilt or sympathy. But I'll note what you said, thanks.

Mutual Confirmation of Romantic feelings Are not. QED.
But you know what, even if we ignore that, there's no feeling IN the other version of the scene. Scenes without feeling cannot be scenes in which mutual feelings are confirmed. Context. This is how you use it.

He still says and thinks, regardless, that he's glad to have her at his side and not be alone.

As has been mentioned twice, I don't get mad 'over pixels', simply willfull dishonesty, regardless of subject.
Additionally, I was not getting frustrated. I'm not even sure what led you to think I was being frustrated.

Whatever you say.

Lastly, for now, you kinda stopped just short of recognizing your mistake in crediting FF7 to the character designer instead of the head writer.
Also, you skipped over this in its entirety.

I didn't even see it, and Nomura directed AC/C, and he's as important.

"Please, Aerbear, Anastar, don't give us this line- and it's completely a line. From 1997 until very recently, the Clerith position was not that there was insufficient evidence to say Cloud and Aerith were definitely the case. It was the exact opposite- that they definitely were. And you still don't consistently argue that we can't say for certain- even Anastar's essay she copy pasted here said that it could be certain."

I've never seen this before.

Please, do you disagree that the position has been until very recently, that the Clerith position has largely been- including in Anastar's essay recently used in this debate by Anastar herself- that one CAN be certain about Cloud and Aerith getting together?

I don't think this, because I don't think anything like that has been written in stone, to never be interpreted again. I don't think Cloud's romantic feelings have been made canon. For either Aerith or Tifa. And if I ever have, probably it was when it came out, when I was little.

If you do disagree, then could you explain sites like Destiny Fulfilled and older iterations of Anastar's site, or the Forgotten Crater archives, where such a position was consistently argued?
If you agree, could you please explain why this position has changed, and when it did?

I don't think the LT has been officially closed, and from what I know of Anastar, I think she shares this belief. Maybe it's an old essay or she just changed her mind. You'll have to ask her.

The Post-modernist philosophy. It fucking burns.

*Tssss*

No. When he decided on them being together, Nomura was certain the movie expressed a great truth about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. When he reported this decision, Nomura said Tifa was someone's beloved. The 'I've no clue/ don't care about two years between' quote comes between these two times.

Tres and me cleared this too, I think.

It's also refering to Cloud being together with Tifa. And that being where he belonged. Something that is reiterated in the U10, and the CCU.

He would be where Tifa is.

So, the U10 story summary is sufficient for the HAHW, then? Or the important scenes pages?

No. I am calling it's inclusion in the summary a placeholder. Like the Aerith date has been.

And Cloud and Tifa move in together, start a family, raise some kids, have a future together. Things you'd expect from folks who confirmed mutual romantic feelings.

Barret and Tifa have moved in together, raised Marlene, technically had a future at some point before FFVII.

She does, and you are aware of that statement's colloquial meaning, yes?

Just trying to ease the tension.

So, Clerith can get by with no quotes that say Cloud loved Aerith, but we must demonstrate he definitely still loved Tifa.
Actually, we have one. It's been shown in this thread several times. It's been hemmed and hawwed at, mostly.

Dude. We base Cloud and Aerith mostly off observation, like we did back in 1997.

The Ultimanias are described as informational books, right? Giving detail to what we already know. What's telling the story are the games and the movie. If Cloud and Tifa are going to be made canon, it should be made within the story itself. Nobody's gotten back to me about this, so uh..

Cloud and Tifa aren't shown to be in a romantic relationship in the story - the games, novellas, and movie.

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."

That's what we're going to do. We're going by not just Nomura, but Square's telling of the entire story. You definitely have a case, but as the Compilation stands currently, their just isn't enough to say it's canon right now.

Despite being contradictory?

Yes. Because there are answers in the plural. Like I said... if you see it a different way, you'll find that possible answer. Until they say otherwise.

Maybe Cloud loves both girls.

To give you an indication of what the text itself is talking about. Yuffie, Barret, or Tifa's date could be there and the text would tell us the same thing. The picture's basically a timestamp. For all the entries, even the one in the subheading. The TEXT is important. Picture says WHEN, Text says WHAT.

Text says flip some pages and they're both written as optional.

The conversation in the LAHW was apathetic and short. Apathetic and short conversations are not that easy to mesh with confidently starting a new life with Tifa and feeling it will succeed because he has her, forming a family, raising kids, having a future, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I mesh it easily.

Suddenly not alone?
Where are you getting suddenly?

He had to have felt lonely at some point if he's thinking "Now I'm not. Tifa taught me this."

How about that he physically stops moving towards the door when the promise is mentioned?

Because he isn't ignoring her?

Quex, we only tested for that ONE variable. We didn't test shifting the TSV as well. What we CAN say is that the AV definitely affects the HAHW. We can't say other values do not. For all we know, Tifa's AV and the TSV both affect the flag, and if they together are above 50 or some other arbitrary value, you get the date.

"The biggest mystery of FF7&#8212;the affectional rating

It is the inside parameter prepared for 4 characters&#8217; affectional rating for Cloud; they&#8217;re Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie and Barret (information from creating staffs). According to different conditions, some specific events will proceed variously. The choices that occasionally appear in the scene with conversations will affect the rating largely. If your choice makes the character reveal positive reaction, the rating would be raised. In addition, it seems the time he/she joined your party, the interaction during the combat mode (using &#8220;heal&#8221; and &#8220;cover&#8221; when the other one was in a pinch) will uplift the rating too. But to compare with choices that provided, the influence is minor." -Dismantled, page 189

omg if aeris is jacob is tifa miranda?

I'VE CLEARED OUT THE ENGINE ROOM, CLOUD............

What the shit?

 

[Dashell]

I can pretty much guarantee you that if you asked Nomura, "Was the hand at the end of FFVII's Aeriths?" he'd give one of us, "Well what do you think? Maybe it was, that could be your answer. It might have also been Tifa the entire time..." answers.

ps. The commentary on Cloud hunting for his missing sword... **laughs**

Inorite? I'm imaging this and it's so cute XD

EDIT
Aerbear ninja's in there ... don't have time to read it all but I did see this:

His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.

I have an undying body even today. Am I immortal?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

If you could choose who Cloud ends up with in the end of the game,
Why did SE even add information as Cloud and Tifa sharing mutual feelings? In that case it would make sense for Cloud and Aerith to have a moment like that too, if it's all optional. (And to make the amount of evidence for both couples even) But where in the game does Cloud and Aerith reveal their feelings for each other then? Hmmm... They never do. They never interact as if they REALLY love each other either. All I can see is 2 weeks of flirting and caring, and that is not love that goes beyond death in my eyes.

Or why wouldn't SE just tell us in Ultimanias, etc. that Cloud can end up loving Tifa or Aerith, and not give us quotes like "Cloud and Tifa came to realize their feelings for each other and live together in AC and DoC."? That would only make things more complicated.

His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.

Keep in mind that Aerith is actually dead. She made a big impact on everyone, especially Cloud. He will never forget her.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Since nothing was really directed at me, I'm only gonna comment here because I've seen Cleriths say this more than once:

But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.

As opposed to how smashing he treated Aerith? Calling her the slum drunk, telling her that Tifa is his girlfriend, trying to ditch her REPEATEDLY, shaking off her come-ons, actually getting exasperated when she wants his opinion on her revealing dress choice, ignoring her questions about 'skin tones' he prefers (still a wtf, Aerith moment for me), BEATING THE FUCK out of her, and then trying to kill her himself right before Sephy does it for him?

These are just off the top of my head. I know that some of those are optional, but point of fact is you do NOT ever have the option to treat Tifa with the same callous disregard. Not ever. Also, for anyone wanting to argue that Cloud wasn't himself when he pummeled dear Aerith--he is no more/less himself he is in that moment than he is through the entirety of Disc One.

Personally, I think Tifa and Aerith were on equal footing in terms of romance on Disc One (as in there wasn't any). Seriously, they both wanted him--but he's mind-fucked and a moron so he's oblivious. However, the moment the LS sequence happens and Cloud is Cloud again, he reveals his heart and in his heart is Tifa. THAT is when Cloti begins (for me)--for Cloud it began when he was 9 .

But even in his mindfuckery stage he still values Tifa and doesn't treat her badly. If you have examples of him doing so, please offer them.

Edit:

"The biggest mystery of FF7&#8212;the affectional rating

It is the inside parameter prepared for 4 characters&#8217; affectional rating for Cloud; they&#8217;re Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie and Barret (information from creating staffs). According to different conditions, some specific events will proceed variously. The choices that occasionally appear in the scene with conversations will affect the rating largely. If your choice makes the character reveal positive reaction, the rating would be raised. In addition, it seems the time he/she joined your party, the interaction during the combat mode (using &#8220;heal&#8221; and &#8220;cover&#8221; when the other one was in a pinch) will uplift the rating too. But to compare with choices that provided, the influence is minor." -Dismantled, page 189

Again, thank you.

Cloud's affections are not variable. Only the affections for him are by the 4 other characters.

Cleriths have offered 3 confirmations of this variance in this thread and not one of them mentions Cloud's emotions change. So again... .

Cloud(X) + Tifa(X) = HA
Cloud (X) + Tifa(Y)= LA

Tifa's affection can change. NOT CLOUD'S. Period. End of. He loves her. It's up to her to match him back.

 

[Theozilla]

Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.


I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.

Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.


She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.

If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.

The description says it's optional, just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional. It isn't right in the description, but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.

Except optional =/= not-canon, plenty of video games have optional (romantic) scenes; and the Ultimanias state that the HA Highwind scene is the canon version.