First of all, as others have repeated more times than I can count, NO, there is no affection value for Cloud. Stop pretending it hasn't been explained to you.
But even so, if we entertain you for argument's sake, you need to remember that there are FOUR candidates. You seem to forget this a lot.
If you think the date mechanics spill over into the narrative, then you need to show where in the narrative the game allows Cloud and Yuffie to grow together romantically. GO ON. Tell us all about Cloud's love for a minor.
How does choosing Yuffie translate into the narrative? If the narrative grants all four candidates equal legitimacy, you need to fucking show this. ACCOUNT FOR ALL FOUR.
And if all candidates are optional, why is Tifa the only one singled out and given the Highwind scene (either version)? For example, you can go on a date with whoever and still get the HA version. Why is there an HA scene of romantic feelings being shared for Tifa, yet no equivalent for Aeris, Barret and Yuffie? How would the narrative reconcile a date with Yuffie and the HA Highwind version? ACCOUNT FOR ALL FOUR.
And even getting the LA version still doesn't make sense then. Because Tifa is still singled out by being THE ONLY ONE OF FOUR whom the narrative directly addresses by giving you a scene in which you can again either love her or (let's entertain you again for a moment) or not. In addition to the dates. Why? Isn't she optional to begin with? Why does the narrative need to specifically address her love for Cloud in a manner which it does for no other candidate?
You say that Tifa getting the LA version makes sense if the player chooses Aeris for Cloud. Or Yuffie. Or Barret. Ok, but why is Tifa the one the narrative has TO FIRST ESTABLISH Cloud doesn't love in order for Cloud and, say, Yuffie to be legitimate at the end of the game?
Could it be because her love for Cloud is narrative fact?
Which means your own argument works against you. In addition to the fact it's completely wrong to begin with.
Quex tells me you'd rather I post an entire response to you rather than part of it at a time. I didn't finish responding to this one yesterday, so I'll finish with it today. From now on, I'll respond to your entire PMs.
Anastar said:
So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.
Actually, I have substantiated it, but you and the others here don't accept the evidence I give you as valid. I guess that's only to be expected, though - very honestly, I don't accept much of the evidence you give me as valid, either.
In any case, I need to quote Ryu's response to your use of that quote, because I know he won't PM his response to you, but you need to see at least that part of it:
Ryu said:
To ANYONE defending Anastar, THIS is your evidence she's doing this deliberately. Tres JUST provided her with the rest of that quote, and SHE IGNORED IT. She's trying to IGNORE the ACTUAL EXPLANATION of those complicated feelings for those she would prefer to be the case.
IT'S WILLFUL, SHE'S PURPOSELY DISHONEST. QED.
I must agree with him. In two back-to-back posts, you've quoted everything from that passage in the 10th AU except the sentence that begins "This is due to the fact that ...." In your previous post, you quoted everything after that line. In your current post, you quoted everything before it.
Why will you quote everything that falls on either side, but not that line? One can only conclude that you won't acknowledge the line because it undermines the claim you make about the rest of the quote.
Here, for the record, is the full passage, with the sentence you keep ignoring bolded, underlined and italicized:
Compilation Check A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
「Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
That is the full quote, with its full context. To ignore that sentence is dishonest. You need to prove us wrong on this, because it's making you look bad.
And how is that supposedly dishonest? Especially when I know that Ryu, Tres, Quex, and many others here are perfectly aware of the entire quote. Did you guys think I was trying to "hide" that part or something? Is that why I'm supposedly dishonest? If so, that's just moronic. You know what the quote says, and I know you know what the full quote says.
At any rate, I did not quote the entire part for several reasons.
1) I wanted Tres to concentrate on the part I bolded.
2) The part I omitted does not contradict the part I quoted. It says that Cloud was still feeling guilty about Aerith's death and that he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. How does that contradict the FACT that Cloud's still thinking about Aerith, that Tifa knows he's still thinking about Aerith, and that it bothers Tifa?
3) How does the part I omitted contradict the idea that Aerith is/was a love rival to Tifa? You might say that because of the part about him feeling guilty, but what about the part where Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him? How about the part where Cloud brought Denzel home because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him? That's in the omitted part, too.
4) How does the idea that Cloud felt guilty about Aerith's death mean that he doesn't love her? Can't Cloud feel guilty about the death of someone he loves?
5) I had no idea that anyone would be so petty as to think that shows "dishonesty", or to resort to that kind of argument in a debate just to make me look bad.
From now on, I refuse to answer such idiocy. If you guys want to be drama queens, go ahead. I won't bother wasting my time on it, especially when you people refuse to consider any other point of view but your own.
By the way, how is it that a discussion in which Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith and Tifa tells him that she doesn't want anything with him as long as he is in love with Aerith not qualify as having "deep subject matter"?
Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.
I said that could be WHY the conversation is apathetic and ends short - because that's how they both FEEL.
And yes, I know that illusions don't really feel anything. Just remember that you keep saying that Cloud loves Tifa, even though both of them are illusions.
The "Deviation" from pg. 232 of the U20 Scenario says the conversation from the high affection version has "deep subject matter," meaning the low affection version doesn't.
For that matter, any conversation about Cloud and Tifa's feelings for one another would have been deep subject matter, regardless of what those feelings are.
I never said they had a conversation about it. The conversation is apathetic and ends short. There are no words shown, just like there's no words shown in the HA version - so we can't know what they say or don't say.
If it's apathetic and ends short, though, and neither of them have any romantic interest in each other, then it's probably something like,
Cloud "You'll always be a good friend to me, Tifa."
Tifa "Same for me, Cloud."
Cloud "We'd better get some sleep."
That Deviation blurb is telling us that there wasn't deep subject matter discussed in the low affection version:
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.
Which should tell you right there that the "Let's get some sleep" portion of the low affection scene is as far as the conversation ever went
I still want to know how it makes sense for a scene described as ending "rather short" (pg. 198 of the FFVII UO) to have a longer conversation after the fade-to-black than it did prior to the fade. I've asked you this question before and not gotten an answer. I want one this time, please.
It's easy to assume that Cloud is acting according to how he feels. If you like one girl more than the other, then it's normal to treat and talk to the girl you like better in a more favorable way than you treat the other. The way Cloud acts and talks is also an indication of how he feels.
No kidding. The person who you're claiming falls in love with Tifa is also an illusion. So is Tifa. So is Aerith. So is Marlene. So is Denzel. <_<
So should I get into an argument now about how an illusion can't really fall in love with Tifa? Or can we drop this nonsense?
I was talking about the fact that the person playing the game determines the affection level by which choice he/she selects. The RL person who makes that choice is making that choice for the character Cloud. The choice the RL person makes determines who the illusion Cloud falls in love with in the illusory story of FFVII. Clear enough?
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
What you've said is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa will fluctuate to match hers for him -- but you're also saying that her feelings for him are dependent on his feelings for Aerith. Which is the dependent and independent variable here?
I said that Tifa's interest in a relationship with Cloud will change. She may still be attracted to him and still be very fond of him, while at the same time she is not interested in a relationship with him.
You're not answering his
question. He's asking if Tifa's feelings match Cloud's OR if hers are dependant on his feelings for Aerith. You HAVE said both before. Tres is asking which set of feelings actually affects the others.
Cloud can be interested in a relationship with Tifa in the HA version. Cloud can be not interested in a relationship with Tifa in the LA version. Tifa's feels the same way as Cloud, regardless of which version you get.
Now, before you state that the Date Mech only affects Tifa's feelings, not Cloud's, I've already explained how Cloud's actions affect Tifa's affection level and therefore his own feelings (affection level). Even though he's illusory, SE created the Date Mech in order to show how the illusions feel regardless of the fact that they don't really have feelings. It's part of the game, and the Date Mech is what the LT is based on.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
That also doesn't really make sense because the player doesn't have options to act nasty toward Tifa (e.g. there's no option to call her the slum drunk).
I'm well aware of that. You're the one who claimed you did have to:
You said:
When Cloud is nice to Tifa, then his affection for her goes up. That happens in RL, doesn't it? When you have good interactions with someone, you get to like them more. When Cloud isn't nice to Tifa, then his affection level for her goes down. Again, that happens in RL - you act nasty to someone when you don't like them. When Cloud acts nasty to Tifa, her affection goes down.
Forgive me for using a shorthand to explain how the Date Mech works. I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand what I was saying. From now on, I'll be sure to explain in detail that when points are subtracted from Barret's, or Tifa's, or Aerith's affection levels, it's not because they really feel anything or hear anything.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
For that matter, one can get the high affection Highwind scene even if they didn't get Tifa for the date.
Yuffie's not part of the Love Triangle. The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
Oh, btw, Quex - there's another reference to Cloud being able to fall in love with Aerith, although I doubt you'll accept it.
Anastar said:
Easy.
Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" -- "Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.
"Interested in a relationship with Jessie"? That's got to be the most ridiculous claim yet made in an LTD thread. No Ultimania has ever suggested this as even a possibility.
Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE’s Jessie and young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him. Even though it’s the pitiable aspects of Cloud that stand out, perhaps weaknesses such as those also win over a woman’s heart. ~Cloud's profile, 10th AU
And for that matter, could it not be that he was just being slightly polite if he says "Looking forward to it"? Hell, even sarcastic? He has to be interested in a relationship with this chick he's known for about half an hour and whose name he didn't even care to learn?
Well, Jessie hasn't known him over half an hour, either, but Cloud's profile said she was interested.
Now, tell me... have you ever been walking down a street or in a mall or restaurant or beach or somewhere, and some good looking girl smiled and/or winked at you? Did you think to yourself that she was good looking or something? Then you took the same kind of interest in that girl that Cloud could take in Jessie.
Was it enough for him to ask her out? No. Is something like that serious? No. Did it go anywhere? No. Did he forget about it? Yes.
But how else do you explain the -3 to Tifa? Best explanation is that he takes a passing interest in another girl. Or maybe I should say that he "shows" a passing interest? Would you be able to comprehend it then?
And, again, what does his conversation with Jessie have to do with Tifa? She's not even there.
I already explained that. Cloud's showing interest in a girl besides Tifa.
Also, more from Ryu worth reading:
Ryu said:
And so Tifa's affection for Cloud changes based on a conversation she never hears?
Barret likes Cloud more because he gives Marlene a flower? Because Cloud says Barret is his boyfriend when Corneo asks?
And Cloud dislikes Aerith so he pushes barrels in her way. Those are all consequences of your silliness, Anastar.
You call me silly when you're acting like a total jerk. You want an answer, then phrase it without criticism or insults.
Anastar said:
Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.
You want an answer, tell Ryu to phrase it without criticism.
I've got better things to do than be harassed. I will no longer answer anyone who speaks to me like this. You want an answer from me, then knock it off with the insults, criticism, and harassment.
Yuffie's not part of the Love Triangle. The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
Oh, btw, Quex - there's another reference to Cloud being able to fall in love with Aerith, although I doubt you'll accept it.
Don't tell me what I will and won't accept... BTW I don't accept this /witty
Okay correct me if I'm wrong but you've often said a love triangle just meant the two girls love him though? Does a love triangle mean Cloud can love either now? The other quote posted specifically said Cloud wavered between THEM... I'm looking for Cloud's feelings not, the girls'. If it says what you're saying, this is another point for both girls. I was hoping you'd have one for just Aerith.
Maybe I AM being bias here or something, but I just know that Square has designated romance from Cloud to Tifa with Cloud as a kid (a crush, yes but a crush is still romantic nonetheless) and the HA scene. Even you say Cloud has the option to love Tifa in the HA scene. Where is the scene where it's specified that he has the option to love Aerith? I don't recall them doing this for any scene with Aerith or any of the others.
Maybe if I reword it like this:
Where is the Clerith equivalent of the HA highwind scene?
Am I being bias here? No really, someone let me know.
Cloud "You'll always be a good friend to me, Tifa."
Tifa "Same for me, Cloud."
Cloud "We'd better get some sleep."
But how else do you explain the -3 to Tifa? Best explanation is that he takes a passing interest in another girl. Or maybe I should say that he "shows" a passing interest? Would you be able to comprehend it then?
Quex tells me you'd rather I post an entire response to you rather than part of it at a time. I didn't finish responding to this one yesterday, so I'll finish with it today. From now on, I'll respond to your entire PMs.
We don't accept your "evidence" because it is largely made up, twisted, quote mined, (insert more dishonest practices here). Without the dishonestly, very little of your so called evidence supports anything. Some of it actively supports OUR position, pre-dishonesty. And no, I for one will not accept something that is not valid as being valid.
I guess that's only to be expected, though - very honestly, I don't accept much of the evidence you give me as valid, either.
The difference being that you are denying things SE outright tells us. We refuse to accept the invalid as valid because it IS invalid. You refuse to accept the valid as valid because its damning to your ship.
And how is that supposedly dishonest? Especially when I know that Ryu, Tres, Quex, and many others here are perfectly aware of the entire quote. Did you guys think I was trying to "hide" that part or something? Is that why I'm supposedly dishonest? If so, that's just moronic. You know what the quote says, and I know you know what the full quote says.
It would be moronic of you to try and hide part of a quote to deceive people, yes, even more so considering how well informed the people here are. Let's look at your checklist you made, and see if I can't help clear up just how this is dishonest.
At any rate, I did not quote the entire part for several reasons.
1) I wanted Tres to concentrate on the part I bolded.
Dishonesty. You should provide the entire quote, thus allowing all context to be seen. Bolding or italicizing the part you wanted him to concentrate on would be fine, but cutting it down to JUST what you want people to see is not. In essence, you might not be hiding the rest of the quote from us, but you are instead demanding we focus on just the part you choose there.
2) The part I omitted does not contradict the part I quoted. It says that Cloud was still feeling guilty about Aerith's death and that he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. How does that contradict the FACT that Cloud's still thinking about Aerith, that Tifa knows he's still thinking about Aerith, and that it bothers Tifa?
It doesn't. Cloud Is thinking about Aerith, and Tifa is bothered by the distance he creates because of it. But, with the additional bit to tell us that his thoughts are about GUILT, we know his thoughts are about about GUILT. Not LOVE, as you'd have us believe. With the full quote, we can see that Tifa is bothered not by jealousy of Cloud's love for Aerith, but because of the distance he creates between them because of his GUILT. The different parts of the quote don't contradict each other, but the full quote contradicts your position.
3) How does the part I omitted contradict the idea that Aerith is/was a love rival to Tifa? You might say that because of the part about him feeling guilty, but what about the part where Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him? How about the part where Cloud brought Denzel home because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him? That's in the omitted part, too.
Ok, again it doesn't contradict that Aerith WAS a love rival to Tifa, nor does it support the idea that she is such a rival post-mortem. The only feelings for Aerith we know Cloud definitely has, thanks to the context of that quote, are guilt.
And are you really claiming Cloud wouldn't have brought a sickly orphan home from the ruined and dangerous city if not for his belief that Aerith brought the kid to him? Others have said it before, I'm saying it again: Clerith!Cloud is a DICK.
4) How does the idea that Cloud felt guilty about Aerith's death mean that he doesn't love her? Can't Cloud feel guilty about the death of someone he loves?
It specifies the feelings the quote is talking about. It does not specify love. No one said Cloud can't feel guilty about someone he loves. What we said is that you can't use quotes that focus entirely on guilt as support for love.
5) I had no idea that anyone would be so petty as to think that shows "dishonesty", or to resort to that kind of argument in a debate just to make me look bad.
It shows dishonesty. People called you dishonest because you were. It has nothing to do with making you look bad, you do that just fine on your own.
From now on, I refuse to answer such idiocy. If you guys want to be drama queens, go ahead.
No one is being a drama queen here, except you with this little spiel you're going on above. It is not idiocy to tell a liar that her pants are on fire, so to speak. If you don't like it, suck it up and quit being dishonest. I know it sucks to be unable to support your side of a debate without doing so, but that's a pretty big hint that you shouldn't be supporting said side.
I won't bother wasting my time on it, especially when you people refuse to consider any other point of view but your own.
Annie, that's a mirror you're talking to. We're over here
Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.
And yes, I know that illusions don't really feel anything. Just remember that you keep saying that Cloud loves Tifa, even though both of them are illusions.
You have entirely missed the point of Cloud being called an illusion. You are now using that term to apply to every character, because they're fictional right? But Cloud, from the start of the game (technically earlier than even that) up to the Lifestream sequence, is living as an illusion, believing he really is an Ex-SOLDIER who did a bunch of what Zack did. That's the illusion being discussed.
I never said they had a conversation about it. The conversation is apathetic and ends short. There are no words shown, just like there's no words shown in the HA version - so we can't know what they say or don't say.
There ARE words shown in the HW version, they're just not what they used to confirm their feelings. They did that "without words" at Tifa's rather forward and risque suggestion. Similarly, we see words in the LA version... they just don't go anywhere.
If it's apathetic and ends short, though, and neither of them have any romantic interest in each other,
Except somehow you believe Tifa both is in love with Cloud. That isn't apathetic, even if the nonsense you come up with about her knowing Cloud loves Aerith were true.
then it's probably something like,
Cloud "You'll always be a good friend to me, Tifa."
Tifa "Same for me, Cloud."
Cloud "We'd better get some sleep."
I've seen the LA scene. That right there didn't happen, they said "We'd better get some sleep" before the fade to black. The fade to black in the HA is a sexy discretion shot. The fade to black in the LA is a "its boring watching people sleep" shot.
No, you made some extra bullshit up and stuck it on before the "Let's get some sleep." I say again, made up. Because no such thing happens in that scene.
You've never gotten an answer because I never got the question in a PM. But now that I have - who said it was a long conversation? I sure didn't.
You want additional meaning to exist within the LA version, but no conversation about said meaning. No indication, in fact, that there is additional meaning at all. Is that what you're saying here?
No kidding. The person who you're claiming falls in love with Tifa is also an illusion. So is Tifa. So is Aerith. So is Marlene. So is Denzel. <_<
No, again all those people are fictional. None of them are living under a delusion that they led a completely different life from what they actually lived. Pre-Lifestream!Cloud was an illusion. No one else on that list is one, given the meaning of "illusion" being used here.
So should I get into an argument now about how an illusion can't really fall in love with Tifa? Or can we drop this nonsense?
There is nonsense that needs to be dropped alright, but its entirely on you Annie, and your inability to recognize what was meant by "illusion." I do suggest you drop it though, cause you are seriously making yourself look silly now.
I was talking about the fact that the person playing the game determines the affection level by which choice he/she selects. The RL person who makes that choice is making that choice for the character Cloud. The choice the RL person makes determines who the illusion Cloud falls in love with in the illusory story of FFVII. Clear enough?
Cloud's actions, up to a certain point in the game, are under player control. This does not determine who CLOUD falls in love with. It determines which of the four possible dates you get by way of THEIR affection value. Cloud DOES NOT HAVE ONE. And even if you could prove you can control who Illusion!Cloud falls for, this would not prove Real!Cloud loves them. Real!Cloud is all about Tifa, you see.
Cloud can be interested in a relationship with Tifa in the HA version. Cloud can be not interested in a relationship with Tifa in the LA version. Tifa's feels the same way as Cloud, regardless of which version you get.
So its Tifa's feelings who match Cloud's according to you then? Is that what we're going with now?
Now, before you state that the Date Mech only affects Tifa's feelings, not Cloud's, I've already explained how Cloud's actions affect Tifa's affection level and therefore his own feelings (affection level).
No you have not. You have asserted that Cloud's player-chosen actions affect his own feelings. You have never substantiated that, period. Cloud does not have an affection level to raise or lower.
You RRRRRREEEEAALLY got hung up on that word didn't ya? I can tell cause you keep using that word... but I do not think it means what you think it means.
SE created the Date Mech in order to show how the illusions feel regardless of the fact that they don't really have feelings. It's part of the game, and the Date Mech is what the LT is based on.
They can feel regardless of the fact that they don't have feelings? What the hell are you talking about at this point? And yes, the Date Mechanics are part of the game. They are not what the LT is based on, the LT is based on the narrative.
Forgive me for using a shorthand to explain how the Date Mech works. I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand what I was saying.
I assumed you were intelligent enough not to go off insulting the intelligence of the people here, and would attack their arguments rather than them directly. I was wrong eh?
From now on, I'll be sure to explain in detail that when points are subtracted from Barret's, or Tifa's, or Aerith's affection levels, it's not because they really feel anything or hear anything.
And yet she is part of the dating mechanics. Which, according to you, are what the LT is BASED AROUND. So how can the above statement be true without invalidating that one?
It can't, because the date mechanics are not the be all end all of the LT.
The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
A bunch of crap about how Aerith and Tifa feel does not indicate Cloud can only fall in love with one of those two. That says nothing about Cloud's feelings at all, as usual when you start tossing quotes out. Of course, the NARRATIVE does say Cloud cannot fall in love with Yuffie, but that's because he DID fall in love with Tifa
Oh, btw, Quex - there's another reference to Cloud being able to fall in love with Aerith, although I doubt you'll accept it.
Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE’s Jessie and young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him. Even though it’s the pitiable aspects of Cloud that stand out, perhaps weaknesses such as those also win over a woman’s heart. ~Cloud's profile, 10th AU
Way to go, you found another quote about how a bunch of girls have feelings for Cloud. But I think you got mixed up, you said it would be a reference to Cloud being able to fall for Aerith, which is not mentioned here at all. I totally trust that you just used the wrong quote, I'll wait while you get the right one.
Well, Jessie hasn't known him over half an hour, either, but Cloud's profile said she was interested.
Granted, this is actually truth for once. Good show.
Now, tell me... have you ever been walking down a street or in a mall or restaurant or beach or somewhere, and some good looking girl smiled and/or winked at you? Did you think to yourself that she was good looking or something? Then you took the same kind of interest in that girl that Cloud could take in Jessie.
There is no indication that Cloud took such and interest in Jessie, or any other kind of interest for that matter. What Jessie feels DOESN'T matter, just as what Aerith feels DOES NOT matter, in an argument about CLOUD'S feelings. And Cloud didn't even care enough to learn Jessie's name at that point.
Was it enough for him to ask her out? No. Is something like that serious? No. Did it go anywhere? No. Did he forget about it? Yes.
All honest answers, good for you. Cloud didn't show any motivation to ask Jessie out, there was nothing there to BE serious so it clearly wasn't and COULDN'T go anywhere, and Cloud hardly mentions her again after she dies. Nice work there.
But how else do you explain the -3 to Tifa? Best explanation is that he takes a passing interest in another girl. Or maybe I should say that he "shows" a passing interest? Would you be able to comprehend it then?
Since she was not around, didn't see it, didn't hear about it, etc, unless you believe Tifa is a latent psychic or fortune teller waaaay better than Cait Sith, then that isn't an explanation at all. Let alone the best one.
The best explanation is that the AVs are arbitrary as fuck and don't need to have any basis in the narrative. Do you comprehend THAT yet?
I already explained that. Cloud's showing interest in a girl besides Tifa.
The debate wouldn't be any fun without that stuff. And you're going to get criticism, criticism is GOOD for you. The insults you're bringing on yourself. You act silly, folks will call you silly. You lie to people, people will call you a liar. Etc.
You want an answer, tell Ryu to phrase it without criticism.
You want to have any success at debating, learn to take criticism and change for the better off of it.
I've got better things to do than be harassed. I will no longer answer anyone who speaks to me like this. You want an answer from me, then knock it off with the insults, criticism, and harassment.
Have fun talking to yourself then. Cause people are going to continue to criticize you as long as you are wrong about things, as long as you are being dishonest, etc. People will keep using accurate terms to describe you, so if you don't want to be called silly, don't act silly. If you don't want to be called dishonest, then BE HONEST. This isn't that hard, honestly (cwatididthar?
And who is harassing you exactly? Now that, I haven't seen anyone doing.
So, calling you 'silly' is 'acting like a total jerk' and noting that you are being inconsistent in your argument is now grounds to refuse even considering my argument.
Yeah, Annie, to everyone but those absolutely in your quarter, this will reflect poorly on YOU, not US.
Look, some of us think you're deliberately lying through your teeth, an offense far more serious in our opinion than saying people are being absurd. We're not going 'You're lying, therefore we're ignoring you,' even though we do call you out on apparent lies.
We respond, in detail, and support our claims.
You have invented an escape clause for yourself with this 'no criticisms' BS, and already demonstrated how low the bar is sold.
So, no. I will continue to be as forthright as I care to be.
I get no respect from you, so I will obey my own standards, the standards of intellectual honesty, and not the net nanny standards you would impose.
The more you IGNORE our criticism of your arguments for asinine reasons, the worse you will show yourself.
It's your move. Feel free to ruin my expectations, Anastar.
@Anastar. Forgive me for saying this but I think you are the one who doesn't understand how the Date Mechanics works. It is NOT part of the narrative. It is as irrelevant as the HP/MP systems, or the limit bars, or the three-man party. It's there for the gameplay. Do you honestly think that in the narrative, every time Cloud stumbles his HP diminishes and a number actually appears outside of his head? Does it make more sense for Cloud to only keep 2 team mates with him in a mission when there's no reason why he couldn't take ALL of them? It's game mechanics. Same with the affection value, they are irrelevant because in the ACTUAL narrative, Tifa is in love with Cloud. And no, the affection value doesn't measure Cloud's, but the FOUR candidates. How hard is that to understand?
And as to the subject of player illusion, no the player DOES NOT choose for Cloud's love. Like I said before, the player can only control Cloud for a limited time. After the LS event, the player can no longer control his feelings. Cloud then becomes a separate character from the player --- a character who has his OWN feelings different from the player's. This Cloud is the Real!Cloud and this Real!Cloud is in love with Tifa.
I know I'm not exactly part of this discussion, but I'd like to post and...
I just want to. I do what I must because I can.
Anastar said:
Given that Cloud's a SOLDIER (or thinks he is at that time), Cloud wants someone along who can back him up in combat. Remember that it's Cloud who picks who to go with he and Barret. I always pick Aerith to go, since I like mages - I like using Aerith in combat. (I would guess that a lot of people here pick Tifa to go - I usually don't.) So, that's me as Cloud showing a preference for Aerith. That not only increases Aerith's affection level for Cloud, but it also means that Cloud likes Aerith better than Tifa.
Am I supposed to get from this that IF I choose Barret and Cid in my team, Cloud automatically has a bonnar for both of them and want to date them? And more importantly, this means they also like him in that light?
My party is usually Cloud, Tifa, Vincent (sword, fists, gun). This doesn't mean I, as Cloud, likes Tifa OR Vincent--I just like the party set up. I don't want this to mean I want Cloud to date Tifa, though maybe I'd like him to date Vincent I just like seeing a sword, fists, gun party.
Like my FF8 party, Squall, Zell, and Irvine. I like the combo, it's my (the player's) preference--not Squall's. I don't even bring Rinoa with me, because I hate her guts. But SquallxRinoa is canon. Yeah, my preferences really don't decide who likes who. If they could, it'd be SquallxSeifer and RinoaxNORG. Just saying.
Don't get me wrong, I love Aerith, but I can't really choose her to go with me for the rest of the game without using cheatcodes, so I usually just DON'T level her up or buy her equipment because I know she's gonna die anyway. This doesn't mean Cloud hates her, it means I (the player) am being practical. Besides, if I use a cheat code to keep her in the party, I might as well cheat through the whole game.
I'm just wondering what you would think of the person who prefers to bring Nanaki in the party over Aerith/Tifa. CloudxNanaki?
PS: Emphasis on the first person perspective, because I'm talking about how player preference =/= Cloud's.
PPS: I'm not criticizing you (I don't even know you), but I am criticizing this point--if I was even criticizing anything at all.
PPPS: I forget the point for this post. Something about my two-cents or me being confused, I think?
So basically Anastar is arguing that the date mechanics can be used as proof for the non canonity of Cloti since's Aerith is the one you'll most likely get out of four people even if the HW scene happens only to Tifa?
As for "feelings of friendship argument" being exchanged in the HA highwind scene argument... why would SE list it in the FTOIL page? You don't really confirm feelings of friendship with one another because friendship isn't that hard to express or say. I'm sure the whole party consider each other friends without the difficulty of expressing that feeling. Cloud has a difficulty of conveying his words to Tifa. So what kind of feeling and words are hard to convey that Tifa told him to convey without using words? And why was Tifa so embarrassed if it was only friendship?
From now on, I refuse to answer such idiocy. If you guys want to be drama queens, go ahead. I won't bother wasting my time on it, especially when you people refuse to consider any other point of view but your own.
Anastar, some of your response to me has been handled by Ryu and EverybodysGrudge as well or better than I could say it, so I'll be quoting them on several things.
I'm answering you tonight for two reasons, even though I have PMs from GLD, Quexinos, the Penguin, and Zealkin that I haven't answered yet. 1) You've said that you hate the time delay - well, the fact that I have so many people to respond to is the reason for the time delay. What I usually do is answer the PMs from other people before responding to yours.
Quex tells me you'd rather I post an entire response to you rather than part of it at a time. I didn't finish responding to this one yesterday, so I'll finish with it today. From now on, I'll respond to your entire PMs.
Why did it take Que asking you to do that for you to comply, by the way?
Anastar said:
First of all, my comment about not understanding women very well was meant lightheartedly, not offensively. I certainly don't understand men very well, either. Many people I know say they don't understand the opposite sex, but they say it lightheartedly and never offensively.
Now, as for the women you asked - you asked for their opinion on whether they thought that "waiting around" would indicate strength or weakness. What they gave you was their opinion. Your judgement on the matter is also opinion. My judgement on the matter is also opinion.
Now, I'd like to point out that two of the women you asked actually agreed with both of us:
"It takes strength to REALLY be okay with someone not loving you," and agreed with the above perspectives. Her mom had the most in-depth response, and said "Well, it does take great strength to wait around for someone, but is it self-defeating? To love someone who is emotionally unavailable would require patience, but is it because you deep down know that that person is unobtainable, so you really are not taking any risk?" ~from your post
Both acknowledge that it takes strength (agreeing with me), but go on to acknowledge that it's also self-defeating (agreeing with you).
Did you not read what came after the comma in my wife's comment? She was saying that it takes strength to be okay with someone not loving you and to move on -- rather than throwing yourself a daily pity party and moping around waiting for something to happen that you have no reason to believe ever will.
And please don't come back at me on this with saying that's only my interpretation. The woman is my wife. I'm pretty sure I can verify what she meant a little more easily than anyone else here.
Mother-in-law. Wife's mother. Not the same as a stepmother.
Anastar said:
... also went on to agree with me that it takes patience, but went on to agree with you by saying that it's not taking any risk. So they see my side as well as your side.
Now you're quote mining my mother-in-law. That's fucking fantastic.
The rest of what she said: "By walking away you are empowering yourself and promoting your self worth that your love shouldn't be thrown away at someone who will never reciprocate or appreciate it."
She's saying that while, yes, it can take strength to be patient, that's only true up to a point. After that juncture has passed, it becomes an unhealthy exercise in self-pity.
All of the women I asked agreed that waiting around for a guy to love you after he's made it clear he has no interest in doing so is weak. How are you misrepresenting what they said, when I bloody well told you how they felt?
EverbodysGrudge got it right, and he doesn't know those women any better than you do:
GLD said:
One of them said it takes strength to REALLY BE OKAY with someone not loving you. Being ok with someone not loving you =/= waiting around hoping they will. The other starts off agreeing that it can take a lot of strength to wait around, yes, and acknowledges the patience required, but then goes on to point out there is no real risk in this since you're not really taking action. Ergo, more strength is required to DO SOMETHING and change the situation, whether your actions are to try and gain their love or to simply walk away. Because once you do that, you're embracing risk. Now, I don't know any of these women Tres quoted here, but just looking at their words here it really looks like they are not agreeing fully with both sides.
TL;DR for my opinions: It does require some strength of will to hang on and hope for love, but it takes genuine strength of character to see how self-defeating and weak this approach is and change it.
People don't always do what's best for them, do they? For example, abused women don't always get out of the situation they are in - some do, some don't. It's easy to stand on the outside and judge what would be best for someone else to do. Doesn't mean that everybody always does what's best for them.
No kidding? That somehow makes their weak, pathetic behavior not weak or pathetic?
It would be best for me to stop replying to your posts, yet I'm still doing so because I apparently don't love myself enough.
I don't even know what to do with this comment, but EverybodysGrudge apparently did, so I'm going to let him have at it:
GLD said:
No one will argue this I'm sure, people are, by definition, very good at doing things that are quite the opposite of good for them. But we're talking about specific people here, not people in general. We can see examples for both Cloud and Tifa making mistakes and doing the wrong thing for themselves, AND examples of them doing what is best for themselves and each other. Hell, there are times where a single choice they make is both. Good example, fighting the Shinra was good and right, and their downfall was best for the Planet and everyone on it. But Tifa did it for explicitly bad reasons, and the results were tons of guilt at her "sins." Had she and Barret not been so focused on revenge, maybe they'd have taken their plans a little more slowly and NOT killed a ton of innocent people during their bombings, eh?
In my post yesterday, I pointed out examples of several FF characters who are in pretty much the same situation. Yuna doesn't move on from Tidus in FFX-2. Vincent doesn't move on from Lucrecia. Dyne doesn't move on from Eleanor. There's also Shera when Avalanche first gets to Rocket Town in FFVII. She's living with Cid, who is emotionally distant from her and actually resents her for preventing his rocket from taking off - but Shera sticks around despite that.
How so? Yuna is still hung up on Tidus, yes, and she is actively doing something about it. She throws herself into Sphere Hunting as a member of the Gullwings rather than sit around Besaid moping. When a possibility of Tidus still existing comes up, she looks into it. She moves forward, she does things. She doesn't just pull up a chair and wait.
Actually, yeah, I'd agree, Cloud was totally weak until he took action, Yuna was weak in 10-2 until she started DOING shit instead of WAITING, and Vincent would be the first to agree he's a weakass fuck for being Hung up on Lucrecia who I will remind you is not dead in the hopes that you will finally realize this and stop using her as an argument. Waiting for shit to change and not acting when it comes to love is entirely weak.
All of whom are Weak until they Act.
Lucrecia isn't dead. That's not directly relevant, but hopefully, through endless repitition, you will remember it.
...
Shera believed she owed Cid. It was not out of a longing that he might one day love her, but out of a feeling that she had to atone for what she'd done. It turned romantic, but it was not in the hopes of being romantic.
I forgot to point out yesterday that this is not exactly what Tifa's situation is. As of the start of FFX-2, Tidus is dead, so Yuna is not waiting for him to love her. Also, she has no reason to find a replacement for Tidus asap.
There should be a distinction between moving on from a person who does not love you and moving on from the death of your loved one.
Forgive for still participating in this, but I believe that Shera sticks with Cid because she thought it was her fault that his lifelong dream was ruined. It's kinda like selling yourself as a slave to pay for your debt. That's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.
How exactly? She didn't sit around waiting for Tidus to pop back from being dead. She went out and looked for more information after Kimahri found that sphere on Gagazet -- and helped a shit-ton of people along the way.
Again, she took action.
Anastar said:
It also makes Vincent weak for continuing to love Lucrecia.
Vincent is weak. The dude locked himself in a fucking box for over 20 years. He's a little bitch. And he knows it.
Anastar said:
Cid eventually sees his mistake, and ends up marrying her. From what you've said, you would most likely have told Shera to move on. Doesn't always happen, either in FF or in RL.
You're damn right I would have told her to "move on" (in quotation marks because she wasn't waiting around for this man to love her). She was a fucking moron. She's every abusive man's wet dream -- she would not only take it, she'd genuinely believe she deserves it!
Anastar said:
Okay, let's try writing it in first person:
It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.
I'm in complete bafflement here. I'm just going to have to let Ryu's response to that one stand.
Ryu:
Ryu said:
"So if we simply change all the associated pronouns...
And ignore that the Japanese explicitly refers to it as Cloud and Tifa's home...
We're golden!"
In fact, let's try writing that sentence in the first person AGAIN.
"It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey."
Whattaya know. It STILL works. Even better. And it fits with the original lines.
Anastar, you're literally resorting to DELIBERATELY REWRITING THE EVIDENCE to suit your conclusion. Not 'Oops, misremembered that' but 'Let's actually change the pronouns used in the text to support my point'
In any event, the Japanese text makes who "their" pertains to indisputable: "ティファとクラウドの家."
Anastar, he literally just quoted you the line directly from the japanese version of the novella. It's not his word he's giving you to take. It's the very text under discussion. And it says Tifa and Cloud's home.
...
"If we just materially change the nature of the text by simply rewriting it how I want, it can totally mean what I want!"
Actual English used 'their.' Japanese used 'Tifa and Cloud's.'
Trying to argue from your own rewrite- not translation, a simple rewrite- is a dishonest move.
But I guess you're going to have to take our word for it -- instead of, you know, using any of the multitude of online resources at your disposal, such as popjisyo.com and excite.co.jp/world/english/, to verify it. And I guess it's too much trouble to take some time to read an article on Japanese grammar or something.
No, you can only take my word for it, giving you a -- to you, anyway -- reasonable excuse to ignore the facts of the language.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
Case of Barret says at the beginning that Barret "felt guilty for putting off action just one more day" before he left, so that tells us he'd known he would be leaving for a while.
Unless he just thought of it yesterday for the first time. "Just one more day" may be referring to the strength of his desire to find redemption, rather than how long he has been planning it.
In other words, if it just occurred to him yesterday for the first time that he can't find redemption when he's with Marlene because she's an emotional crutch for him, the power of that realization may have made him want to leave NOW - and not delay it.
Also, it wasn't Barret who called it Cloud and Tifa's place. It was the narrative voice. As you mentioned, the story was written in the third-person. That third-person voice of the narrative called it Cloud and Tifa's.
When I read this the first time, my mouth literally dropped. I'm still truly at a loss here.
Ryu, please, for the love of God:
Ryu said:
Thank you.
For two reasons.
1. Barret does not consider it his place, and you have no evidence that he has ever considered it his place.
2. You have added another layer of immateriality to COLW, since that too is from the perspective of the unnamed woman we can never possibly identify no matter how hard we try because it's apparently impossible to correctly identify an entity if we're not explicitly told who it is.
To be accurate, it isn't shown that she was thinking of taking off as well. She merely responded to Barret's announcement by saying that she wanted to settle her past as well.
But it can easily be inferred that she was wanting to "take off" in order to do it:
"I wanna go on a journey to settle my past." Cloud nodded as if he understood. "Settle your past...? But I want to do that too." "You guys can do that here. Don't just take. Try proving that you can give too." ~Case of Tifa
Barret just finished saying that he was going on a journey in order to settle his past. Tifa says she wants to settle her past, too - so was she also wanting to go on a journey to do it, just like Barret? It's certainly possible. Why else did Barret specify that she could do it here? Sounds like Barret thought that Tifa meant she wanted to leave, too.
And I'm not saying you're wrong that she may have thought it necessary to go on a journey to do that until Barret said she could do it right there. Yet we also don't know that she would have thought it necessary to go a on a journey in the first place until Barret spoke of it and Cloud nodded, as if in understanding.
We literally have no idea when the thought entered her mind. It's pointless for us to go into something we can't draw any conclusions about, especially when you're trying to use this unverifiable notion as evidence for another unverifiable notion (i.e. that Tifa was thinking about ditching Cloud).
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
Also, again, is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past?
I can't answer that for Tifa. Was leaving Marlene behind necessary to settle Barret's past? He seemed to think so. Cloud seemed to think it was necessary to leave Tifa behind when he moved into Aerith's Church. If Barret and Cloud can leave people behind, so can Tifa.
Cloud wasn't 'leaving Tifa behind,' he was sparing her the site of watching him die in the case his last ditch effort to find redemption and a cure (sought so he could go back to the place where he was happy, that is, with Tifa and the Children) failed.
I did answer your question, though. She was surprised that Barret left, and probably worried Cloud might think about leaving too. She tends to be insecure.
Yes, she tends to be insecure - but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that Tifa has no reason to be insecure IF Cloud is making it clear to Tifa that he loves her and wants to be with her and wants to share his future with her.
So, a woman NEVER needs to be told she is loved after she's been told once, then? You never need reassurance when a man grows distant, or insular? Worrying about him or the relationship is without reason?
I don't buy that for a minute and you don't either.
Which should tell you something. It's only ever been referred to as Cloud and Tifa's home -- and in Barret's own story at that.
While we're on this topic, by the way, it's been brought to my attention that in Reminiscence of FFVII, Vincent, Yuffie and Cid all call Cloud to tell him to go to Barret's place -- which is apparently close enough to Edge that Cloud can be expected to drop by while he's out doing deliveries, and then still be home to make the next day a holiday.
It's impossible to say for sure, but as Ryu has mentioned many times, there's nothing requisite about Cloud leaving the room in order for Marlene to sleep in a bed with Tifa anyway.
And I'm not saying that in the time prior to Seventh Heaven being built -- nor in the first week after it was built -- that it was more than just Marlene and Tifa. I'm saying that it's impossible to know what things were like between then and Denzel showing up, but 1) we know Marlene stopped sleeping with Tifa at some point, and 2) even if Marlene continued to sleep with Tifa for a while, that doesn't mean Cloud had to sleep elsewhere.
Anastar said:
In the first place, I don't agree that it's "officially Cloud and Tifa's home".
Whether you agree is irrelevant. That's what the story -- one you insist is telling us Barret's thoughts, no less -- calls it.
Anastar said:
I'm insulting no one. And yes, I've seen such a family, since I had two foster children living with me for almost two years.
What you say doesn't rule out that fact that Marlene still regards Barret as her father. In some foster families, the foster kids call their foster parents Mom and Dad. In other foster families, the foster kids call the foster parents by their first names. Regardless of what the foster child calls the foster parent(s), it doesn't mean that the biological parent(s) aren't still the real parent(s).
Who has said Marlene doesn't consider Barret her father? Fuck's sake, you don't get what is implied by "nuclear family," do you? It refers to the family within a household that has more than a single guardian/parental figure.
Anastar said:
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Barret won't come back and live at the Seventh Heaven. Marlene obviously considers Barret part of her family, since she still calls him "Daddy". In Case of Tifa, Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Since Marlene's the one inviting Cloud into the family, and Marlene considers Barret part of the family, then Barret would be part of the nuclear family, too. Also, Tifa includes Barret in the family when she says that the family is made up of friends.
In the Ultimania timeline, and in the Story playback, Barret is excluded from the Nuclear family unit at the 7th Heaven, listing the family of three and then family of four living there. Cloud includes Marlene, BUT NOT BARRET WHO IS PRESENT, as part of his family when he awakens at the church.
Denzel sees Cloud and Tifa as his parents. No mention of Barret.
Barret may, in the future, come back to be with Marlene and stay permanently at 7th heaven. BUT UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, he is part of Marlene's family, but NOT the nuclear family at the 7th heaven. He never has been.
I once again refer you to the Venn Diagram of the families as view by different people
At the end of AC/ACC, we see two pictures. One with Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. The other picture is Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, and RedXIII with Aerith's flowers in front. These are the friends that Tifa originally said are part of the family. It's obvious that any of them would be welcome to stay at the Seventh Heaven. These are the friends Cloud and Tifa traveled with throughout FFVII - the same friends that show up in AC/ACC and other parts of the Compilation, and the same friends who show up in AU games like Kingdom Hearts. They can easily be considered part of the family.
And that's where the distinction between "nuclear family" and "extended family" comes into play.
When my wife and I had pictures taken a couple months back for our wedding, we had many combinations of attendees grouped together for pictures -- some of them are just those in our household, while others include the household, plus the extended family.
There's an obvious difference there that you have been hellbent on refusing to see for years.
Anastar said:
I said this yesterday, but I'll say it again. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm trying to show that there is more than one way to interpret the situation.
You said Denzel and Marlene don't see Cloud and Tifa as parents. SE says that Denzel, at the least, does. You're wrong. I'd say sorry, but I'm not.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
I personally see issues with it (e.g. it's asking for trouble to be roommates when one person has stated romantic intentions and the other doesn't), and I don't see why they would continue that arrangement indefinitely, but that's a reasonable enough response.
I never said that one expressed romantic intentions and the other did not. According to the scenario I described, both had said they weren't romantically interested.
And right now, Tifa is NOT interested. She may have in the back of her mind that someday she hopes things might work out between them - but for now, she knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud, so she has no intentions of getting romantically involved.
As has been pointed out to you numerous times, that's not disinterest. That's a wish for someone else's feelings to change so that they will share your interest.
Since you love personal anecdotes so much: I used to be in love with a friend of mine while she was married to someone else. I wanted to be with her. I was romantically interested in her.
Would I have accepted an affair, had she offered? No, of course not. I would want her to lose the zero and get with the hero (he really was an asshole).
Does that mean I wasn't romantically interested? Fuck no. I wanted her as bad as anyone can want another person.
By the way, let me save you the trouble of asking: yes, i told her about my feelings; yes, she expressed that she wasn't going to leave the dickhead; yes, I was weak for pining after her for a couple of years before I finally got my shit together, moved forward and met the amazing chick I'm married to now.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
Can you substantiate this, or is it merely "possible," despite what Cloud had said were his intentions? And -- as with Tifa and settling her past -- why does Cloud settling his necessitate leaving Tifa behind? Even if he went elsewhere, why would that necessitate leaving her?
Yes, I can substantiate it with the fact that Cloud leaves at the end of Case of Tifa to live in Aerith's Church. We have no idea how long he was planning to leave before he left.
So, 1) you assume Cloud is lying to this woman he knows is in love with him (you like to make him an asshole, don't you?), 2) you use him leaving two years later to substantiate your claim that he could have been interested in leaving at the beginning of Case of Tifa, 3) you act as though we haven't been given the reasons Cloud left, 4) you act as though those reasons didn't develop later (they did), and 5) you act as though Cloud doesn't go back home after that shit got resolved.
You don't think that's dishonest?
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.
First you said Barret definitely planned to stay. Then you said no one had a definite plan. Now you're again claiming that Barret definitely planned to stay.
Again, please pick a consistent position.
Anastar said:
When I said that the LA version is indicated, I mean that Tifa's complex feelings would substantiate the LA version instead of the HA version. It's more evidence of one than the other. I do not think it proves that the LA scene happens, but it is evidence to show that the LA version is possible.
That is not what you said. Honestly, do you think I can't go back to your previous post and read it again (not that I had to, since you even quoted it)?:
You said:
So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.
That is not a suggestion of possibility. That is a claim that the low affection version happened -- based on a quote mining of Tifa's 10th AU profile, no less.
Anastar said:
SE has stated that the HW scene diverges into two conditions. The script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO. SE considers both versions valid.
Christ Jesus. I need Ryu again before I fucking explode:
Ryu said:
It considers both versions to exist and be possible in a given game, just as it considers Shadow dying, Vincent and Yuffie not joining, North Corel exploding, and Tidus not returning to existence as possible. None of those happen in the narrative, however.
Your argument boils down to 'They recognize the deviations, therefore, they are saying both versions are possible, and neither if favored over the other.' For numerous NUMEROUS reasons, this is a bad argument. But Yuffie and Vincent are sufficient to show that they are.
And how is that supposedly dishonest? Especially when I know that Ryu, Tres, Quex, and many others here are perfectly aware of the entire quote. Did you guys think I was trying to "hide" that part or something? Is that why I'm supposedly dishonest? If so, that's just moronic. You know what the quote says, and I know you know what the full quote says.
At any rate, I did not quote the entire part for several reasons.
1) I wanted Tres to concentrate on the part I bolded.
2) The part I omitted does not contradict the part I quoted. It says that Cloud was still feeling guilty about Aerith's death and that he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. How does that contradict the FACT that Cloud's still thinking about Aerith, that Tifa knows he's still thinking about Aerith, and that it bothers Tifa?
3) How does the part I omitted contradict the idea that Aerith is/was a love rival to Tifa? You might say that because of the part about him feeling guilty, but what about the part where Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him? How about the part where Cloud brought Denzel home because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him? That's in the omitted part, too.
4) How does the idea that Cloud felt guilty about Aerith's death mean that he doesn't love her? Can't Cloud feel guilty about the death of someone he loves?
5) I had no idea that anyone would be so petty as to think that shows "dishonesty", or to resort to that kind of argument in a debate just to make me look bad.
I don't know that I could respond to this part without going into full-on dick mode, so I'm going to let EverybodysGrudge take it:
GLD said:
[1] Dishonesty. You should provide the entire quote, thus allowing all context to be seen. Bolding or italicizing the part you wanted him to concentrate on would be fine, but cutting it down to JUST what you want people to see is not. In essence, you might not be hiding the rest of the quote from us, but you are instead demanding we focus on just the part you choose there.
[2] It doesn't. Cloud Is thinking about Aerith, and Tifa is bothered by the distance he creates because of it. But, with the additional bit to tell us that his thoughts are about GUILT, we know his thoughts are about about GUILT. Not LOVE, as you'd have us believe. With the full quote, we can see that Tifa is bothered not by jealousy of Cloud's love for Aerith, but because of the distance he creates between them because of his GUILT. The different parts of the quote don't contradict each other, but the full quote contradicts your position.
[3] Ok, again it doesn't contradict that Aerith WAS a love rival to Tifa, nor does it support the idea that she is such a rival post-mortem. The only feelings for Aerith we know Cloud definitely has, thanks to the context of that quote, are guilt.
And are you really claiming Cloud wouldn't have brought a sickly orphan home from the ruined and dangerous city if not for his belief that Aerith brought the kid to him? Others have said it before, I'm saying it again: Clerith!Cloud is a DICK.
[4] It specifies the feelings the quote is talking about. It does not specify love. No one said Cloud can't feel guilty about someone he loves. What we said is that you can't use quotes that focus entirely on guilt as support for love.
[5] It shows dishonesty. People called you dishonest because you were. It has nothing to do with making you look bad, you do that just fine on your own.
Again, I can't respond any better than EG already has:
GLD said:
No one is being a drama queen here, except you with this little spiel you're going on above. It is not idiocy to tell a liar that her pants are on fire, so to speak. If you don't like it, suck it up and quit being dishonest. I know it sucks to be unable to support your side of a debate without doing so, but that's a pretty big hint that you shouldn't be supporting said side.
I'm getting really sick of this comment from you. As I've said before, I have acknowledged being wrong before, e.g. with the Puppet Master Theory, which I was much more invested in than the LTD.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
By the way, how is it that a discussion in which Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith and Tifa tells him that she doesn't want anything with him as long as he is in love with Aerith not qualify as having "deep subject matter"?
Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.
So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."
It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player.
And yes, I know that illusions don't really feel anything. Just remember that you keep saying that Cloud loves Tifa, even though both of them are illusions.
I'm going to have to let EG cover this one, or I will completely flip my shit:
GLD said:
You have entirely missed the point of Cloud being called an illusion. You are now using that term to apply to every character, because they're fictional right? But Cloud, from the start of the game (technically earlier than even that) up to the Lifestream sequence, is living as an illusion, believing he really is an Ex-SOLDIER who did a bunch of what Zack did. That's the illusion being discussed.
There ARE words shown in the HW version, they're just not what they used to confirm their feelings. They did that "without words" at Tifa's rather forward and risque suggestion. Similarly, we see words in the LA version... they just don't go anywhere.
Only that doesn't happen in the low affection scene. What the fuck?
And where the hell in that fake conversation you suggested is there any element of revelation? Where is the confirmation of mutual disinterest that you claim is there?
You are literally rewriting the game and related content (e.g. Case of Barret) to fit what you wish happened. You're not even working with the actual material.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
That Deviation blurb is telling us that there wasn't deep subject matter discussed in the low affection version:
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.
No the hell it isn't. You tried to fucking rewrite the game is what you did.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
I still want to know how it makes sense for a scene described as ending "rather short" (pg. 198 of the FFVII UO) to have a longer conversation after the fade-to-black than it did prior to the fade. I've asked you this question before and not gotten an answer. I want one this time, please.
Thanks for spitting in my face with your bullshit attempt to ignore the question. You're claiming that a scene described as "rather short" has more content after the fade-to-black. No, not even just more content -- what would be the most important content of the scene, in fact!
How does that make any sense?
Anastar said:
Now, before you state that the Date Mech only affects Tifa's feelings, not Cloud's, I've already explained how Cloud's actions affect Tifa's affection level and therefore his own feelings (affection level).
What you've done is claim nonsense like Cloud tries to beat the lockdown on the train early in the game so he can impress Tifa and Barret. That is a consequence of your claim that the things that influence the other characters' affection ratings are motivated by who Cloud likes.
Anastar said:
Forgive me for using a shorthand to explain how the Date Mech works. I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand what I was saying.
I assumed that you were intelligent enough to understand that if you claim Cloud raises or lowers the others' affection values based on his own preferences, then that standard would have to be applied to literally everything he can do that influences their affection values.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
Ryu's response says it best:
Ryu said:
You can get the YUFFIE DATE and the High Highwind scene, Anastar. Does he love Yuffie and Tifa, then.
Yuffie's not part of the Love Triangle. The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
You're the one who claimed that "The Date Mechanics determine who Cloud loves in the story." That's a direct quote, by the way; you said those exact words. So's this, from just a few paragraphs above in your same post: "It's part of the game, and the Date Mech is what the LT is based on."
So, which is it? Do we determine who Cloud loves with the date mechanics, or does the narrative render the affection values ultimately meaningless because there's a canon storyline that ignores them? You can't have it both ways, but you're trying to right now.
You always do this. You make sub-claims that are only concrete so long as your primary claim isn't better served by abandoning them.
I don't know why I'm wasting my breath on this. OneWingedDemon has already said it as well as it could be said:
OWD said:
First of all, as others have repeated more times than I can count, NO, there is no affection value for Cloud. Stop pretending it hasn't been explained to you.
But even so, if we entertain you for argument's sake, you need to remember that there are FOUR candidates. You seem to forget this a lot.
If you think the date mechanics spill over into the narrative, then you need to show where in the narrative the game allows Cloud and Yuffie to grow together romantically. GO ON. Tell us all about Cloud's love for a minor.
How does choosing Yuffie translate into the narrative? If the narrative grants all four candidates equal legitimacy, you need to fucking show this. ACCOUNT FOR ALL FOUR.
"Interested in a relationship with Jessie"? That's got to be the most ridiculous claim yet made in an LTD thread. No Ultimania has ever suggested this as even a possibility.
Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE’s Jessie and young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him. Even though it’s the pitiable aspects of Cloud that stand out, perhaps weaknesses such as those also win over a woman’s heart. ~Cloud's profile, 10th AU
You have an ongoing difficulty with identifying quote's about Cloud's feelings for other people rather than quotes about other peoples' feelings for Cloud.
Anastar said:
Ariadne said:
And for that matter, could it not be that he was just being slightly polite if he says "Looking forward to it"? Hell, even sarcastic? He has to be interested in a relationship with this chick he's known for about half an hour and whose name he didn't even care to learn?
Well, Jessie hasn't known him over half an hour, either, but Cloud's profile said she was interested.
Now, tell me... have you ever been walking down a street or in a mall or restaurant or beach or somewhere, and some good looking girl smiled and/or winked at you? Did you think to yourself that she was good looking or something? Then you took the same kind of interest in that girl that Cloud could take in Jessie.
The way I've always explained it? It's an arbitrary, inherently illogical gameplay mechanic with no obvious connection to the values it influences, and even less obvious links to the effects it has on those values.
To throw your question back at you: how else do you explain the fucking barrels in Aerith's church, given that you claim Cloud does the things he does to influence the others' affection values based on his own preferences?
Anastar said:
Best explanation is that he takes a passing interest in another girl. Or maybe I should say that he "shows" a passing interest? Would you be able to comprehend it then?
...
Ariadne said:
And, again, what does his conversation with Jessie have to do with Tifa? She's not even there.
Since she was not around, didn't see it, didn't hear about it, etc, unless you believe Tifa is a latent psychic or fortune teller waaaay better than Cait Sith, then that isn't an explanation at all. Let alone the best one.
The best explanation is that the AVs are arbitrary as fuck and don't need to have any basis in the narrative. Do you comprehend THAT yet?
And so Tifa's affection for Cloud changes based on a conversation she never hears?
Barret likes Cloud more because he gives Marlene a flower? Because Cloud says Barret is his boyfriend when Corneo asks?
And Cloud dislikes Aerith so he pushes barrels in her way. Those are all consequences of your silliness, Anastar.
Because being called "silly" is such a grave offense.
You were more than happy to make responses to other things Ryu said in that same post. Could it be that you just don't have a response to his very valid point and are making up an excuse so you don't have to? I'm pretty goddamn sure that's what's going on.
Anastar said:
You want an answer, tell Ryu to phrase it without criticism.
I've got better things to do than be harassed. I will no longer answer anyone who speaks to me like this. You want an answer from me, then knock it off with the insults, criticism, and harassment.
You don't get to come in here and insult people countless times with your quote mining, outright lies (which have been well-documented at this point, though the list is by no means comprehensive: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=376701&postcount=1993) and selective responses, and then start acting pissy because people demand answers to the illogical and inconsistent conundrums you spin.
You're not going to get special treatment just because you pretend you're a victim of the mean ol' Cloti clique. You want respect, you treat others with dignity. You don't want to be called a liar, you stop lying.
Now take your lumps like a goddamn adult, put on your big girl panties and fucking deal with it.
It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.
"After helping Cloud and Tifa build our home, I left our home and... ".. uh.. what? If it was his home, you'd think he'd plan to stay?
To throw your question back at you: how else do you explain the fucking barrels in Aerith's church, given that you claim Cloud does the things he does to influence the others' affection values based on his own preferences?
I want to say something. When I debate, I do call people out on double standards, I do call people out on "dishonesty," and I do call people out when they make no sense. And you know what? I expect the same treatment. I want that. I want people to try to prove me wrong.
Anytime you're in a debate and someone makes your resolve waver, or makes you rethink something, that's a good thing. It doesn't make you look weak or stupid or anything like that. It opens up a path for a new line of thought. Sometimes I feel like people feel if they're proven wrong, it makes them look bad so they have to make up an excuse not to answer or they maybe try a smart ass response or something. I'm very firm in my beliefs and I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who can make me say, "Hey that's a good point, maybe I should rethink that."
And I think that's part of the problem. Someone trying to prove you wrong isn't them being a jerk, it's them debating with you... so it's nothing to take personal.
and this came out stupid, but I'm sorry I just hate to see points evaded because people are taking this so personally
EDIT
Shit double posted, if the mods want to merge this they can...
Okay I'm going to give this a shot since I want some answers:
Actually, I have substantiated it, but you and the others here don't accept the evidence I give you as valid. I guess that's only to be expected, though - very honestly, I don't accept much of the evidence you give me as valid, either.
Are you talking about your essay here? Because speaking directly from in the game, wouldn't he have the "option" to be in love with Yuffie or Barret at this point, just as much as Aerith?
And how is that supposedly dishonest? Especially when I know that Ryu, Tres, Quex, and many others here are perfectly aware of the entire quote.
Because you're saying the quote is telling us that Tifa's complicated feelings indicate that Cloud is in love with Aerith. The part that's bold and underline, tell us her complicated feelings are due to the fact that Cloud feels responsible for her death. That's very different from what you're saying the quote means. They're telling us what the complicated feelings are due to, and it's not for the reasons you stated.
2) The part I omitted does not contradict the part I quoted. It says that Cloud was still feeling guilty about Aerith's death and that he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. How does that contradict the FACT that Cloud's still thinking about Aerith, that Tifa knows he's still thinking about Aerith, and that it bothers Tifa?
It's not "thinking about Aerith" that's bothering Tifa. It's him feeling responsible for her death, and feeling so worthless, that he left his family behind to worry about him. It's him CONDEMNING himself, as the quote says, that's bothering her.
3) How does the part I omitted contradict the idea that Aerith is/was a love rival to Tifa? You might say that because of the part about him feeling guilty, but what about the part where Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him? How about the part where Cloud brought Denzel home because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him? That's in the omitted part, too.
Do you think Cloud would have NOT brought Denzel home had he not thought this?
4) How does the idea that Cloud felt guilty about Aerith's death mean that he doesn't love her? Can't Cloud feel guilty about the death of someone he loves?
Of course he can, but this quote itself does NOT say anything about him loving her. You're using it as evidence that he still has feelings for her, but in order to do this, you have to prove he did love her in the first place. The quote does NOT say anything about his love for her. It doesn't say "This is due to the fact that Cloud loves her." it says specifically ... something else Your conclusion is... gah Ryu always says it best, I'll have to find the quote by him but... hey
Would you believe me if I told you there was proof that aliens helped build the pyramids because there's an image on the Temple of Hathor at Dendera that looks like a lightbulb?
(And yes to be fair, it DOES look like a lightbulb)
And yes Tifa and Aerith were love rivals. This has been established, both were after Cloud's love.
Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.
I said that could be WHY the conversation is apathetic and ends short - because that's how they both FEEL.
And yes, I know that illusions don't really feel anything. Just remember that you keep saying that Cloud loves Tifa, even though both of them are illusions.
You misunderstood what he said about illusions. Cloud, in Disc 3, says that he himself, in disc 1 was an illusion. That it wasn't the real Cloud. So Cloud in Disc 1, as stated by Cloud himself, is an illusion. He's not the real Cloud.
I never said they had a conversation about it. The conversation is apathetic and ends short. There are no words shown, just like there's no words shown in the HA version - so we can't know what they say or don't say.
If it's apathetic and ends short, though, and neither of them have any romantic interest in each other, then it's probably something like,
Cloud "You'll always be a good friend to me, Tifa."
Tifa "Same for me, Cloud."
Cloud "We'd better get some sleep."
And you said Tifa DID have romantic interest in Cloud but didn't act on it... so please tell me if you think she had romantic interest in Cloud here or not.
Yuffie's not part of the Love Triangle. The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
You've been arguing for a while now that the date mechanics effects how Cloud feels, and that includes Barret AND Yuffie. You can't try to use the date mechanics as proof of who Cloud loves and just ignore those two. If we're using the date mechanics, they're just as valid of candidates as Tifa and Aerith. What if Cloud is a total dick to Aerith AND Tifa? He goes on a date with Yuffie and gets the LA highwind scene... who is he in love with then?
Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE’s Jessie and young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him. Even though it’s the pitiable aspects of Cloud that stand out, perhaps weaknesses such as those also win over a woman’s heart. ~Cloud's profile, 10th AU
But how else do you explain the -3 to Tifa? Best explanation is that he takes a passing interest in another girl. Or maybe I should say that he "shows" a passing interest? Would you be able to comprehend it then?
Okay then, if the date mechanics work the way you're saying they do, does this mean that Cloud pushes barrels to get into Aerith's way because he dislikes her?
Maybe I AM being bias here or something, but I just know that Square has designated romance from Cloud to Tifa with Cloud as a kid (a crush, yes but a crush is still romantic nonetheless) and the HA scene. Even you say Cloud has the option to love Tifa in the HA scene. Where is the scene where it's specified that he has the option to love Aerith? I don't recall them doing this for any scene with Aerith or any of the others.
Maybe if I reword it like this:
Where is the Clerith equivalent of the HA highwind scene?
Well Q the short answer is that it doesn't exist. And when we are given a chance to have a scene like that? In oh let's say a long awaited reunion in ACC? Nope sorry.
Although if I read Chantara correctly she is saying the LA scene might qualify. The how of it is still being worked out.
Are you talking about your essay here? Because speaking directly from in the game, wouldn't he have the "option" to be in love with Yuffie or Barret at this point, just as much as Aerith?
He does have the option. And Yuffie, at least, has counted as relevant to Anastar herself when she wanted to demonstrate how Cloud could be aware of T and A's feelings for him.
Of course he can, but this quote itself does NOT say anything about him loving her. You're using it as evidence that he still has feelings for her, but in order to do this, you have to prove he did love her in the first place. The quote does NOT say anything about his love for her. It doesn't say "This is due to the fact that Cloud loves her." it says specifically ... something else Your conclusion is... gah Ryu always says it best, I'll have to find the quote by him but... hey
Your conclusion is predicated upon an unfounded assumption?
Would you believe me if I told you there was proof that aliens helped build the pyramids because there's an image on the Temple of Hathor at Dendera that looks like a lightbulb?
Looks more like the cartoon depiction of light being emitted from a source, to me, and the idea of 'Torch plants' existed long before lightbulbs.
Also, those are the gods depicted, no? Why would anyone presuppose the stories about a god are actual historical record?
You misunderstood what he said about illusions. Cloud, in Disc 3, says that he himself, in disc 1 was an illusion. That it wasn't the real Cloud. So Cloud in Disc 1, as stated by Cloud himself, is an illusion. He's not the real Cloud.
To reiterate, in the context of the narrative, only Cloud is an illusion. All the other characters, though fictional, are not illusory within their own fictional existence.
You've been arguing for a while now that the date mechanics effects how Cloud feels, and that includes Barret AND Yuffie. You can't try to use the date mechanics as proof of who Cloud loves and just ignore those two. If we're using the date mechanics, they're just as valid of candidates as Tifa and Aerith. What if Cloud is a total dick to Aerith AND Tifa? He goes on a date with Yuffie and gets the LA highwind scene... who is he in love with then?
Keep in mind, I brought up Yuffie's date not to prove he COULD love Yuffie, but to prove that the Low Affection scene was independent of who went on the date with Cloud. I also brought up that you can get Tifa on the date and NOT the HA scene if you do it all right. The two scenes, date and highwind, are narratively and mechanistically independent of each other.
And if you do think it means he likes Jesse, please do explain why it doesn't apply to priscilla, too.
I'm with Tres. You always make Cloud into the worst person.
In a related note, if She's psychic enough to know Cloud likes her less based on conversations she never hears, even if in the rest of the game he treats her with the utmost respect, how does she need to ask Cloud if he loves her?
Okay then, if the date mechanics work the way you're saying they do, does this mean that Cloud pushes barrels to get into Aerith's way because he dislikes her?
And does Cloud give Marlene a Flower to impress Barret? Does he use Barret as the 'name of his boyfriend' in Corneo's mansion because he DOES like Barret? Does he easily escape from the train because he likes Tifa (and Barret) because he likes her (and him)?
Yuffie's not part of the Love Triangle. The FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. The 10th AU also says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. So Aerith and/or Tifa are the only two that Cloud can fall in love with.
Your position. Pick one.
This is why people accuse you of being inconsistent. Because you are.
If you claim the Date Mechanic determines who Cloud loves in the narrative, you must account for the fact that there are FOUR people whose AV the date mechanic governs. You can't exclude Yuffie or Barret. They too have an assigned affection value which changes based on player choice.
Your position. Pick one.
This is why people accuse you of being inconsistent. Because you are.
If you claim the Date Mechanic determines who Cloud loves in the narrative, you must account for the fact that there are FOUR people whose AV the date mechanic governs. You can't exclude Yuffie or Barret. They too have an assigned affection value which changes based on player choice.
And if you are going to insist that the AV= Love explanation doesn't count for half the people the AV applies to, you're going to need a much better argument than that you can call the two people you DO claim it counts for as rivals.
UNC and Duke are rivals, that doesn't mean there aren't other colleges in the tournament, for a random example.
Off-topic from the current direction of the thread, remember that discussion we had in here a few weeks back about the hand in the light in the ending of FFVII? I did find the quote where Aerith's hand reach scene in AC/C -- rather than the Relay Battle as a whole -- is specifically called an homage to that.
It's on pg. 113 of the Reunion Files. Nojima says: "The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene of a previous production."
I don't have much time to respond and only limited options in how to do so, aerbear, but there are a few things that need to be pointed out pronto.
First, the "undying feelings" quote is, perhaps, the LTD's ultimate quote mine in that it contains both an incomplete quote and an outright lie as to when it was said. Some time ago, someone (I'm not sure who) took a quote from Nomura that he had said in 2003, about a month after the AC project was unveiled to the public, slapped "November 2007" on it and cut off the last couple lines -- all to remove its context and to make it look like a post-Advent Children quote. They then started peddling it as such.
I can get you the rest of the full quote after I'm off work, but -- to paraphrase -- he says something like this about that undying feeling: "Its relation to the church scene is ... Well, I'll leave that to your imagination for now."
Now, I don't know if you remember the Tokyo Game Show trailers that unveiled AC's existence, but at the time Nomura said that, the only church scene we had been shown was Cloud walking through the pews. In the released film, we learned that this is the scene where Cloud finds Tifa after she has been beaten by Loz. It's also one of the guilt wolf's appearances.
That was the undying feeling Nomura was talking about: guilt. The wolf appears in that scene.
I think that for all those players who once traveled with her as comrades, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now.... Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"
He says right there that Aerith's comrades have their own feelings and love for her. Cloud is also a comrade, so he must also have his own feelings and love for her as well that's separate from his guilt.
Either Nomura had a brain fart in the same breath or maybe he really didn't mean to imply guilt?
Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is this "placeholders" argument you keep coming back to. You're claiming they can't just skip a scene with optional elements in a story summary, so they just throw something in there without regard to what it is. I already addressed this in my previous response to you, but they can and have skipped optional elements.
The date is skipped in the 10th AU's summary (the Highwind scene wasn't, though; the high affection version is explicitly included, without mention of affection ratings anywhere in the book). The manner in which Cloud, Tifa and Barret enter the Shin-Ra building is also typically glossed over. Also, as I said previously, they could easily go with a neutral presentation even if they didn't want to skip something.
The tricky part, for me at least, is they've never talked about this. The story itself glosses over it, but like I said, if the feelings were canonically romantic, I should think it would have been brought up - especially in CoT, because that novella is about her relationship with him. To actually address these feelings with him in a scene like that and never mention it again is a little strange - it would be a big leap for both of their characters, but it's ignored by them themselves. I do think, in that respect, SE has stayed with a neutral presentation.
The placeholders argument is just silly and baseless.
One other thing: you keep saying Cloud had felt alone until the night under the Highwind, and that it's support he and Tifa could have confessed to one another. You dismissed most of my previous address to this, but even if you disregard all the previous moments support was expressed, you still need to provide reasonable cause to believe that Cloud was saying he had only just learned that he has Tifa's support.
From now on, I think I'm just going to answer people who don't need to fling accusations at me and who actually debate - like Zealkin. Sorry I didn't answer you before this, Zealkin:
Zealkin said:
Chantara said:
I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.
Where is there a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally? Where is there a quote saying that the HA version of the HW scene is canon?
What SE tells us about the LA HW scene is that you get the LA version version if Tifa's affection rating for Cloud is low. In order for Tifa's affection rating for Cloud to be low, then Cloud has to act in ways that give negative values to Tifa's affection rating. If Cloud is acting in that way, then his affection for Tifa is low. That means their affection values match in the LA scene.
Now, what SE says about the LA HW scene is that it's apathetic and ends short.
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
Now, I was asked to give a reason that the scene is apathetic and ends short. I said it could easily be that Cloud's still in love with Aerith, and therefore not in love with Tifa. Tifa may not be interested in a relationship with Cloud because she knows he's still in love with Aerith.
Anastar said:
It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.
But the LA scene does not communicate anything, it ends short, as in they don't even talk about a possible or no possibility of a relationship. Not only that but there is no quote describing Tifa acting as such in either scene.
Same with the HA version. There is no conversation about the two of them being in love during the HA HW scene. We see no confirmation about Cloud and Tifa loving one another in the HA HW scene. It was purely up to speculation until the FTOIL page put a pic of the HW scene under a title talking about Love Between Heroes. And even then, the FTOIL page specified that the scene is optional and that there are two versions by providing a link to a page where that's discussed in detail.
Then who's koibito is she being described as in the reunion files, if she is supposedly pining after Cloud the entire movie? We agree she's interested in Cloud then who else would Tifa's koibito be?
Koibito can mean "beloved", which means it can be one-way. In that case, it was confirmed in Case of Denzel that Johnny is in love with Tifa:
Johnny ran a cafe in the main street. It was a humble establishment in a patch of open ground with a stall, some tables and a few chairs where he could do some simple cooking. The name of the shop was called Johnny's Heaven. It was a name that was similar to the diner that once existed in the slums of the Seventh Sector. That diner's name was "Seventh Heaven" which had a hostess that Johnny fell in love with. That girl's name was Tifa. ~Case of Denzel
Now, if you look at the pages in the Reunion Files where it's supposedly talking about Cloud being in love with Tifa, there's absolutely nothing talking about romance between the two of them. On page 18, it says that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud:
Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a big kid himself in some respects. ~Reunion Files, page 18
That says nothing about romance - it's talking about a maternal bond between Cloud and Tifa. On page 19, it says that she's a mother, sweetheart, and close ally in battle. Well, on the facing page, it said that Tifa feels a maternal bond to Cloud, so that accounts for Tifa being a mother - but where's there reference to Cloud being a sweetheart? There's not even a picture of Cloud on either of those pages.
Page 19 goes on to say:
Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point ~page 19, the Reunion Files
Which isn't even true - they barely knew one another as kids in Nibelheim, which Tifa says during the Lifestream event. They were with one another during FFVII, but that only lasted a few months. She was with Cloud, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII while they were homeless and while they were building the new Seventh Heaven. Then they moved into the new Seventh Heaven, and Cloud leaves shortly afterwards. As I've had others say to me about the FFVII commercial - if one part isn't accurate, then why should we believe anything else?
Then page 19 goes on to say:
... but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. ~page 19, the Reunion Files
See anything confirming romance? I don't.
Page 20 goes on to say:
... she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director Nomura said that he wanted me to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. ~page 20, Reunion Files
Nothing about romance there. Instead, it sounds to me like the woman in the LA version of the HW scene who's hoping that Cloud will someday get over Aerith.
Later on page 20:
Tifa's a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~page 20, Reunion Files
Again, no indication of romance. So just what is koibito on page 19 referring to?
Page 21 talks about how Tifa has a huge burden herself, and says that the film doesn't give a clear look at what's going on inside of Tifa's head. It says there's one scene where she tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. Later, she feels guilty about it, but that was taken out of the final cut. Nothing to indicate that Cloud's her koibito.
Page 21 then goes on to talk about Tifa's 3D model for the film and selecting Ms. Ito as her voice actor. Nothing about romance.
So just what confirms that Cloud is Tifa's koibito?
In order to have relationship problems, you have to have a relationship, how can it just not work out if they have apparently been in a relationship before?
You don't need a romantic relationship to have relationship problems. You can have relationship problems getting along with a roommate, for example - whether or not you're romantically involved with that roommate. Tres and I have trouble getting along, and we're not romantically involved. Do we have a relationship? We used to be friends (or so I thought) while he was at the CxA forums and the Northern Crater, so yes - I thought we did.
So again how is the scene when Cloud is drinking himself into oblivion indicative of Tifa wanting to be in a relationship with him?
To me, it came across as Tifa trying to help Cloud by offering to talk with him. When he says no, she loses her temper.
As for her snapping at him being because Cloud is wallowing when the others try to move on - that's a possible interpretation, of course. But my interpretation is just as possible.
It's not interpretation though, she's been stated to be moving on despite her troubled past:
Even though being burdened with painful “memories” is the same for everyone － Unable to do much for Cloud who is always dragging around his regrets for the past, she subconsciously raises her voice.(10th AU)
The Seventh Heaven which appeared in AC/DC was opened in order for her to move on and overcome her sorrow for the AVALANCHE comrades lost, as well as her guilt for the many lives sacrificed.
Again, I don't see how that quote is associated with Cloud drinking himself to oblivion in CoT. It's talking about how the new Seventh Heaven was built in order to overcome her sorrow and guilt. Where's it say anything about Tifa offering to help Cloud while he's drinking in CoT?
No, I meant give me a quote stating that since Tifa knew Cloud loved Aerith she decided to not share her feelings with Cloud, I've never heard of that...
Show me a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, not just a quote saying that their feelings match. I've never heard of that, either.
However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?
Also, her profile in the 10th AU says:
Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
If Tifa has complex feelings as woman toward Aerith, I haven't seen Tifa express that to Cloud - have you? To me, that means Tifa's keeping it to herself.
Yes apathetic means uninterested, so Tifa would have to be completely uninterested with Cloud to begin with
Completely disinterested? You mean disinterested in a friendship with him, too? I see no indication of that.
she would not even have hidden feelings that she was waiting to express later on. She does not have them in this version, and it does not match up with what happens in the rest of the narrative.
But I gave two quotes above where SE says that she's keeping things from Cloud. Her profile says that Tifa still has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even two years later in AC. Where did Tifa ever say that to Cloud?
Where does it say Cloud and Tifa are not interested in each other because Cloud still loves Aerith? Please show me a quote.
Well, Tifa's profile says that Tifa still has complicated feelings toward Aerith two years later in AC. Sounds just like that situation to me.
Even on page 232 it says nothing of the sort, it describes all of the dates and the highwinds deviations, but no where in the LA deviation does it say that Cloud was not interested in Tifa because he was interested in Aerith.
And nowhere does it say that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, nor does it say anywhere that the HA HW scene is canon. For that matter, I've never seen a quote where it says that Cloud loves Tifa. I've only seen quotes saying that their feelings match.
As for where it says that Cloud's not interested in Tifa because he's interested in Aerith, that's inferred in several places:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
If there's two versions, and one version is High Affection and one version is Low Affection, it's obvious that the two versions are opposite of one another. If the High Affection is supposed to show that Cloud and Tifa love one another and/or want a romantic relationship with one another, then the Low Affection version does not.
Can Cloud love Aerith? For one thing, it's a love triangle. Aerith's FFVII profile says that the Love Triangle is between herself, Cloud and Tifa. Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Aerith and Tifa are/were "love rivals". Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Tifa's complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith continue in AC. Aerith's picture is shown with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a title about "Love Between Heroes". The FFVII commercial shows this:
Kitase said in one statement that Cloud wavers between the two girls in FFVII:
Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
I could go on, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if Cloud's not in love with one of the girls, that he's in love with the other.
You posted them:
You said :I think Tifa's the type who would be hopeful and keep dreaming that Cloud may change IF she put herself in that situation
I described what the quotes were saying and asked how the two relate. So again how do these quotes even hint at Tifa pining after Cloud?
And where did I ever say that Tifa was pining after Cloud? I said that Tifa may be hoping that Cloud will grow to love her one day, but does that mean she's pining?
I just looked through my other responses to you, and I see nothing about Tifa pining. I won't bother going through the rest of my responses to other people, but I sure don't remember saying anything about Tifa pining. Pining infers suffering, and I see no indication that Tifa's suffering.
However, Tifa's 10th AU profile says that she continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even in AC. To me, that says she's still jealous of Aerith, which could easily imply that Tifa knows that Cloud still loves Aerith.
None of these quotes say if Cloud's affection is high, they're all about Tifa's affection rate.
Okay, I've spoken about how Cloud's affection rating would match Tifa's affection rating to other people. But if you want to insist that it's only Tifa's affection rating that the Date Mech affects, why do Cloud's feelings match Tifa's if you get the High Affection version? Cloud's feelings don't match Tifa's in the beginning of the game, so how do Cloud's feelings grow to match Tifa's in the HA version if Cloud's feelings aren't also affected by the Date Mech? Why did Kitase say that Cloud can waver between the two females in FFVII if his feelings for Tifa are constant throughout the game?
You have given me the definition of apathetic, one of the definitions includes having little or no emotion involved. If Tifa is the one holding feelings, that is still her being romantically interested which means that it would NOT be apathetic
And one of the definitions says that "apathetic" means indifferent or unresponsive, which could easily indicate that both of them are indifferent to having a romantic relationship with the other.
the LA scene communicates nothing, it ends short, and until a quote is provided of Aerith being the reason that Cloud is not interested in Tifa, this explanation falls short.
It says right here when Tifa's feelings for Cloud started/developed:
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
And no where does it say Clouds feelings for Tifa died away.
Where does it say Cloud's feelings for Tifa continued? SE says that Cloud had a crush on her when he was a kid, and SE says that Cloud's feelings for Tifa can optionally match in the HA HW scene, but where does it say that Cloud continued to feel the same way for Tifa for the years he was in SOLDIER and during the time he spent in Hojo's lab?
These feelings are in the present, and Tres why and how very nicely.
And I don't agree. I think it's referring to Cloud's feelings as a kid.
S
o Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she learned that he was going to try to become a SOLDIER. There were other boys who called Tifa out to the well, too. There were other boys writing her love letters, too - one of those letters is on her desk in her room when you visit Nibelheim:
Cloud "I read it..." "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..."
....
"And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?"
So Cloud wasn't the only boy with a crush on Tifa. The only thing that got her interested in Cloud was him going off to join SOLDIER.
I explained in the post. I said that Cloud wasn't the only boy in Nibelheim with a crush on Tifa. What got Tifa interested in Cloud? It says right here:
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Yeah you did:
For example, the scene where Tifa finds the delivery order from Elmyra to take flowers to Aerith's grave and offers to talk with Cloud about it. He shuns her and says he wants to drink alone. Tifa snaps and says to go drink in his room.
IMO, that's a very good example of where Tifa's may be hoping that someday, Cloud will get interested in her. When she sees him reject her help and interest, then she gets mad and snaps at him. (Now please notice, I said MAY be hoping... I don't know for sure, but it's sure possible.)
No, both of those paragraphs are talking about a particular scene where Tifa tries to offer help to Cloud. It's when she tries to help Cloud that she's reaching out to him.
So why didn't she act on it when she had the chance? She did in the HA version, and no feelings were transmitted in the low affection the conversation held no emotion, it ended short.
And she doesn't in the LA version because she's not interested, otherwise known as indifferent.
Hmm well I never really held that standard, and don't think it matters whether or not she was alive. The creators planned for Aerith to die before they even developed everything. Her death was a plot device, a catalyst that moved the group forward, not a jump start for Tifa so she could get Cloud. :/
Kitase-san is adamant that cultural art puts too high a value on the dramatically meaningful death, "In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood." ~Edge, May 2003, interview with Kitase and Nomura
This fits the definitions of Weak:
1. Lacking in resolution or firmness of character
2. Lacing in convistion, persuasiveness, etc
This is what you're describing Tifa as, a character that has no resolution, and cannot even tell the man she's known for years about her interest in him.
You have described Tifa as a pining woman: Pining
1. to yearn deeply; suffer with longing; long painfully (often followed by for): to pine for one's home and family.
So Tifa is painfully waiting for Cloud to notice her romantic interest, hoping that one day he'll notice her. Which is actually the exact opposite of her character at this point. She doesn't leave matters alone like this, she confronts them head on.
If that's the way you want to see it, fine. That's not the way I see it.
And as a side note, if Tifa supposedly is the one to know Cloud the best, and is the only one he's opened his heart to, how would she not know that he harbors no interest for her? Since she knows him so well she should know that her chasing after him would be a fruitless venture since he's in love with Aerith....
Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of her heart, and this makes her uneasy. Nonetheless, she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. (Nojima)
And so does Tifa's 10th AU profile:
A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
He says right there that Aerith's comrades have their own feelings and love for her. Cloud is also a comrade, so he must also have his own feelings and love for her as well that's separate from his guilt.
Anastar, if you can use a third party commercial made by Sony, can I use the English Crisis Core guidebook? The one that says Tifa reveals her romantic feelings for Cloud at the end of FFVII no ifs ands or buts? And the one with all the Zerith quotes?
Personal data:
Age: 15
Bithplace: Nibelheim
Tifa is a young girl in Nibelheim who is hired as a guide to lead Sephiroth and Zack to the mako excavation facility. She is not a fan of Shinra and, although she admits to desiring a blonde-haired soldier operative for a boyfriend, she does not have a lot of nice things to say about soldier.
Link to FFVII:
Tifa meets Cloud in Nibelheim during the events of CRISIS CORE and their friendship carries over to FINAL FANTASY VII. Tifa has always liked Cloud and enjoys helping him restore his memory when they reunite in FINAL FANTASY VII. She ultimately lets her feelings be known near the end of FINAL FANTASY VII and the two can be seen living together during the evens of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
What are your thoughts on this? And yes it IS talking about her romantic feelings because it specifically says she likes him and then the next line says she tells him.
Just a question to Clotis--if there was a commercial that has a picture of Cloud and Tifa, and the word Love was on it, would you use it as evidence that Cloud loves Tifa?
I certainly won't. (Then again, I'm a Clack, but what the hey ) Also, I've seen that image, like, so many times while scanning this thread. What gives?
By the way, a lot of commercials lie just to make their product seem appealing. Heck, we know that even movie trailers insert stuff that aren't even in the movie itself. I can provide examples, if you want me to.
It will really help you if you stop bringing that commercial up. Frankly, it's laughable that it's actually being used in debates. One commercial? Really? How about the other FF7 commercials?
How about this one?
Since you're pointing out only one thing about that old commercial, which is the word Love and a clip of Cloud and Aerith, lemme point out only one word on this commercial--it says "empire": "an evil empire is sucking the life out of the planet."
Shinra isn't an empire. It's a company. Not even close to the canon material. Why should we think the other commercial is closer?
It's just advertisement. Like this one:
Pretty witty and funny. But I highly doubt FF7 has a "cast of thousands" and that it's a "multi-million dollar production". Not really something I'd use in a debate.
And don't even get me started on nitpicking your chosen commercial, because there are all sorts of wrong with it. And for one thing, it said "A love that could never be". Even if the "love" were real, it still "could never be". Right there on the clip of Cloud burying Aerith in the lake. A love that could never be. Let that sink in for a moment...
Besides, I'm sure if it was a clip of Cloud and Tifa instead of Cloud and Aerith with that clip and those words, you'd say the same thing.
More advertisements:
What does this guy have to do with TidusxYuna? Yeah, I don't know either.
Oh, chocobo theme! Neat! And there's a choco--hey, that's not a chocobo! This commercial is a lie! There are no ostriches in FF4! The ostrich is a lie!
Let's imagine a scenario where a person is accused of a crime... say harrasment and we have this scenario in the court:
"From now on, I think I'm just going to answer people who don't need to fling accusations at me like the prosecutor and the guy's lawyers and friends and answer those who actually debate like this person who does not accuse me."
Wow, what a wise decision. What a way to prove your innocence.
I really don't understand how you can play the game and watch how the characters emote to ever believe that Tifa did not love Cloud. Absolutely and unconditionally. Even if Tifa has issues expressing herself more in the low affection version, she loves him. And its made even stronger that Cloud is one of the few things in her life that is completely destroyed.
You could argue strong platonic feelings but even that feels extremely awkward and out of the narrative with Case of Tifa when it's Cloud who wants to move forward and start a new life with Tifa. Even when they travel with Barret, it's Cloud who wanted to be with Tifa. And it's Cloud in game that expressed that Tifa's feelings meant the world to him- that pre-lifestream event her words gave him strength to believing he was who he was (even if well... he wasn't).
Whatever feelings that matched has to be in accordance less with the date mechanics, which on the whole are gimmicky and counter-intuitive when looked at with a completely literal sense (although do offer some insights on character development), and more on the actual characters. For example, one of the date mechanics issues is that if you say nice things about Shinra at Kalm or the reactor near Junon, your points lower for any party member in it. This shows a more basic view on how characters think of Shinra. This does not mean Cloud's feelings of Shinra change during the game. So when thinking about "which feelings match" think about how Tifa reacted to Aerith, how she talked about Cloud, and her interactions with him- rather than just what the options said.
Then again I have my issues of how I feel that Square deals with canonicity and how games in general tend to bulldoze over player options, even the ones that fall over themselves screaming there is no canon (HI LELIANA)
In the end, whether you argue they are romantic or not; Cloud and Tifa find strength in each other, they've had romantic subtext not just throughout the game but long before the game, they spent what could have been the last night of their lives together, and then Cloud wanted to start a life with her, and they created a family where they raise two kids together- albeit with Barret as an ambiguous role. Here they will continue to have issues with themselves and each other, but issues they overcome with patience and understanding.
And this is regardless of Cloud's feelings with Aerith, which I honestly have no issue with what people believe Cloud to have for Aerith. I honestly don't think Cloti's have sufficiently explained the "undying feelings" Cloud has for Aerith because I don't think you can divorce the underlying romantic subtext for C/A and the absolute sway it has on Cloud's conscious anymore than you can when trying to write away Cloud-Tifa family dynamic. But regardless of C/T, Aerith will always hold a special place in Cloud's heart/memories/whatever you crazy kids overanalyze. But whatever Cloud feels for Aerith, Cloud is happy with Tifa and the kids- and they will continue to be together as a family.
And this is regardless of Cloud's feelings with Aerith, which I honestly have no issue with what people believe Cloud to have for Aerith. I honestly don't think Cloti's have sufficiently explained the "undying feelings" Cloud has for Aerith because I don't think you can divorce the underlying romantic subtext for C/A and the absolute sway it has on Cloud's conscious anymore than you can when trying to write away Cloud-Tifa family dynamic. But regardless of C/T, Aerith will always hold a special place in Cloud's heart/memories/whatever you crazy kids overanalyze. But whatever Cloud feels for Aerith, Cloud is happy with Tifa and the kids- and they will continue to be together as a family.
I'm still iffy on the subject of Cloud's feelings for Aerith and whether or not they were love, but regardless, they were romantic and I do think it's not only guilt, just that guilt is the main overall emotion Cloud feels throughout ALL of AC/C. Towards everything.
He feels guilt for Aerith, guilt for Zack, guilt for Denzel and yeah, guilt for Tifa, too because he thinks he isn't good enough for her which really, he isn't because Tifa is so fucking epic and no one is good enough for her .
Ahem.
I guess my point is that despite all this guilt, he still loves Tifa and he still cares for Denzel and Marlene, even though guilt is his driving emotion. So yeah, why can't it be more than just guilt when it comes to describing his undying feelings for Aerith?
I know the ultimanias and all the quotes only mention guilt, but I think it makes sense narratively speaking to see that his undying feelings for the girl encompass a bit more than that. I certainly feel that Tifa's own feelings for Aerith encompass love aerti shipper in me is so shameless and probably guilt and other complicated emotions she's got for her.
Either way, whatever Cloud feels for Aerith, whether you believe it to be deeply romantic love or not, it changes nothing about how he feels for Tifa nor her status as a very important woman in his life. It also doesn't change the fact that he does, very much, love her and is in love with her. Nor does it change the fact that he wants to spend his life with her, live with her, be a family with her and raise kids with her.
/witty
) Also, I've seen that image, like, so many times while scanning this thread. What gives?
